Jack Johnson vs Luis Angel Firpo ''The Sparring Session''

[cotto20]

In Febuary of 1923 Jack Johnson was working in New York as a $250-a-day sparring parther for Luis Angel Firpo, a cocky young heavyweight from Argentina ([Only registered and activated users can see links]***********.com/forums/showthread.php?t=290601#) with fourtenn early round knockouts behind him, whom the broadway columnist Damon Runyon had already dubbed ''The Wild Bull Of The Pampas'' Firpo was preparing for a fight with ''KO'' Bill Brennan, who had almost taken Dempey's title two years earlier, and Tex Rickard was already thinking that big money might be made someday from a Dempsey Firpo fight.

But when the fight crowd was invivted down to McLevys gym ([Only registered and activated users can see links]***********.com/forums/showthread.php?t=290601#) on 26 street to see the newcomer go through his paces with the ex champion Johnson, the temptation to show up his opponent proved more than Johnson could resist, just as it had when he'd worked Kid Carter twenty two years earlier. Firpo rushed at Johnson, only to find himself punching thin air or trapped within the grinning 44 year olds encircling arms as he bowed to the ringsiders-who broke into applause. As the bell rang ending the first round, he patted Firpo on the rear end. Firpo was furious.

So was Rickard, who saw to it that Johnson was fired and refused entry to the gym so long as the Argentinian hoepfull was training there.

Very impressive that Johnson could handle a young Firpo with ease. Especailly when Johnson was 44 years of age. Firpo would go on to give then champion Jack Dempsey all he could handle in 1923.

[Unforgiven]

Johnson is quoted :

"He's mighty strong. I don't see how a man so much smaller than him as Brennan can beat him. Firpo don't know much about boxing, but he has tremendous strength, and seems to be a hard hitter—I don't know just how hard, because I didn't let him hit me. I'm past allowing myself to get hit by these strong young fellows."

[amhlilhaus]

lol, not suprising. he'd have beaten dempsey too if he was given a chance, everyone knows he threw the willard fight.

[janitor]

lol, not suprising. he'd have beaten dempsey too if he was given a chance, everyone knows he threw the willard fight.

I can assure you that there is no way that Johnson threw the Willard fight.

That aside he did get frozen out of the picture after he came out of prison. He made concerted efforts to arrange title matches with a number of top contenders which were subject to interference from the powers that be.

[mcvey]

I can assure you that there is no way that Johnson threw the Willard fight.

That aside he did get frozen out of the picture after he came out of prison. He made concerted efforts to arrange title matches with a number of top contenders which were subject to interference from the powers that be.

The Willard fight was on the level, Johnson tried his best to put the giant away but his lack of condition and his age 37, coupled with the 105 heat sapped his strength, he was in front up to the 19th round but faded as Willard made his surge.
Johnson was past his best then , a year in jail did him no favours ,I dont think he was a viable contender after Havana.He went undefeated for eleven years after the Willard fight , but he was not facing top tier men.

[Seamus]

lol, not suprising. he'd have beaten dempsey too if he was given a chance, everyone knows he threw the willard fight.

Yeah. I and almost all intelligent, well-researched observers of the sport much not be in your "everyone" classification.

[Vanboxingfan]

The Willard fight was on the level, Johnson tried his best to put the giant away but his lack of condition and his age 37, coupled with the 105 heat sapped his strength, he was in front up to the 19th round but faded as Willard made his surge.
Johnson was past his best then , a year in jail did him no favours ,I dont think he was a viable contender after Havana.He went undefeated for eleven years after the Willard fight , but he was not facing top tier men.

I haven't brushed up on this, but I'm pretty sure this fight took place before he went to jail. In fact, if I recall correctly him avoiding jail time was a big selling point for him agreeing to fight Willard.

Nevertheless, I don't believe this fight was fixed. He was, as you pointed out, past his prime.

[mcvey]

Sorry did my post mislead you? Johnson turned himself in to the authorities in 1920 , 5 years after losing his title to Willard.

What I meant was his year in Leavenworth did not help his case as a contender,being that he was 43 when he was incarcerated.
Johnson was persona non grata, anyway ,even if he had been in his prime no promoter would put him in the frame for a title fight.

[Vanboxingfan]

Sorry did my post mislead you? Johnson turned himself in to the authorities in 1920 , 5 years after losing his title to Willard.

Yes, but after reading it again, it became a little clearer.

[Dempsey1238]

Past his prime, sure I go with that. He was 37 years old at the time.

But out of shape?? He was in peak fighting shape for his age of couse. No out of shape fighter fights 26 rounds in heat.

Johnson must of been in great shape. Sure he had a belly, but like most people getting up in age, thats bound to happen.

[Mendoza]

The Willard fight was on the level, Johnson tried his best to put the giant away but his lack of condition and his age 37, coupled with the 105 heat sapped his strength, he was in front up to the 19th round but faded as Willard made his surge.
Johnson was past his best then , a year in jail did him no favours ,I dont think he was a viable contender after Havana.He went undefeated for eleven years after the Willard fight , but he was not facing top tier men.

The fight was on the level for sure. I think you have the facts backward. Johnson did not spend a year in jail prior to the Willard fight.

105 degree heat in Havana in April? I think not. I'm sure it was hot, but that would be record heat. Does anyone care to look this " reported " fact up?

[djanders]

Of course I wasn't there...I'm old but not THAT old! However, I have read from many sources that the temperature in Havana that day was over 100 degrees F.

[cubex]

I can assure you that there is no way that Johnson threw the Willard fight.

That aside he did get frozen out of the picture after he came out of prison. He made concerted efforts to arrange title matches with a number of top contenders which were subject to interference from the powers that be.

But how?:think

I'm just asking since I didn't see but bits of it.Never could find the full 26 rounds.

[Unforgiven]

Johnson must of been in great shape. Sure he had a belly, but like most people getting up in age, thats bound to happen.

Not at all. A belly doesn't just "happen".
Having a flabby midsection where there used to be a flat six-pack is obviously and clearly a case of being "out of shape". I cant think of a clearer case, or example.

Being 37 doesn't make it inevitable that you'll have a belly. It only happens to "most people" because most people are slobs.
Anyone who stays active and doesn't over-eat and slob-around and drink ought to be in the same sort of physical shape at 37 (and beyond) as they were at 22.
Johnson was out of shape. Not horribly out of shape. But noticeably out of shape.

[mcvey]

The fight was on the level for sure. I think you have the facts backward. Johnson did not spend a year in jail prior to the Willard fight.

105 degree heat in Havana in April? I think not. I'm sure it was hot, but that would be record heat. Does anyone care to look this " reported " fact up?

I think you must read backward .
Where did I say Johnson was imprisoned BEFORE the fight ?

Read my last post!
I knew you had trouble framing a sentence ,but assumed you could read one.
In July 1920 Johnson had talks with a special agent , of the Bureau of Investigation,this was agent David Gershon,and the talks took place in Tijuana.
Johnson wanted an assurance that if he turned himself in he would not be treated in like a "common criminal",ie handcuffed . Gershon refused to bargain ,beyond saying Johnson would be treated in" a civil manner" .

Johnson crossed the border into the US on July 20th 1920 , Gershon and a US Marshall, George Cooley were waiting for him,they shook hands , and were photographed,Johnson spoke to the many reporters present and that was that .
Johnson was temporarily jailed in Los Angeles ,and then transported to Leavenworth prison, where he served out his sentence.
The Willard fight was on the level Johnson did his best and was in front ,up to the 19th round.After that,realising he could not stop the giant he knew he could not last the 45 rds and would therefore be beaten.
After the 25th round Johnson sent a message to his wife via Curley the promoter ,asking Curley to escort her out of the arena.
According to Jack Welch the referee ,Johnson was confident he would beat Willard and bet $2,500 on himself to win.
But the huge Willard ,in the best shape of his life was too strong for the 37 year old Champion.the temperature was 105 degrees, the racetrack venue is just 10 miles from Havana,the boxers came in the ring at 12,30 and the fight began at 1 o clock.
Johnson, past his prime at 37 , put up a great fight but after an hour of fighting he faded,Willard absorbed everything he threw and was still strong, the ko was legit.

[mcvey]

Not at all. A belly doesn't just "happen".
Having a flabby midsection where there used to be a flat six-pack is obviously and clearly a case of being "out of shape". I cant think of a clearer case, or example.

Being 37 doesn't make it inevitable that you'll have a belly. It only happens to "most people" because most people are slobs.
Anyone who stays active and doesn't over-eat and slob-around and drink ought to be in the same sort of physical shape at 37 (and beyond) as they were at 22.
Johnson was out of shape. Not horribly out of shape. But noticeably out of shape.
No belly on Vitali.

[Unforgiven]

No belly on Vitali.

Nor Holyfield, and he's about 47-years old.
Roy Jones, 40 year old, is still in great shape at 174 pounds, no belly.

Roy "Pretty Boy" Shaw, the legendary London 'ard man, villain and unlicensed boxer, is still in good shape with a flat stomach at 70+ years of age.

Or the actor Charles Bronson, (he was about 53 years old in the pic below) :

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


I think Jack Johnson was just a bit out of shape at 37, probably (almost certainly) due to the fact that he'd spent most of the last 5 years living the high life, eating well, drinking well, and driving around in his flashy cars. He probably shed a lot of weight to fight Willard but he was still noticeably flabby. Age is no excuse. (and I say that as a man pushing 36)

[mcvey]

Nor Holyfield, and he's about 47-years old.
Roy Jones, 40 year old, is still in great shape at 174 pounds, no belly.

Roy "Pretty Boy" Shaw, the legendary London 'ard man, villain and unlicensed boxer, is still in good shape with a flat stomach at 70+ years of age.

Or the actor Charles Bronson, (he was about 53 years old in the pic below) :

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


I think Jack Johnson was just a bit out of shape at 37, probably (almost certainly) due to the fact that he'd spent most of the last 5 years living the high life, eating well, drinking well, and driving around in his flashy cars. He probably shed a lot of weight to fight Willard but he was still noticeably flabby. Age is no excuse. (and I say that as a man pushing 36)

A friend of mine, who fought unlicensed bouts did "some work "with Shaw, he described him to me as a "complete head banger, as broad as he is tall,as vicious as a snake in a fight ,and impervious to pain."
Johnson began to decline after he had won the title, he knew he had the skills to outpoint his limited opponents and did not train seriously, the washboard stomach disappeared, never to be seen again after the Ketchel fight.
Photos of Johnson at the time of the Willard defence show him carrying lard around his arse and midsection,Willard in contrast is raw boned and lean ,his turn would come in Toledo, against Dempsey .
I am 61 in two months ,and my six pack is now a sick pack , but I like my real ale .

ps Bronson had some fights as a welter, the film shown is pretty good ,dont you think?
Of course there would have been more facial damage but pretty good ,the bald bad guy at the beginning is funny.

[Unforgiven]

A friend of mine, who fought unlicensed bouts did "some work "with Shaw, he described him to me as a "complete head banger, as broad as he is tall,as vicious as a snake in a fight ,and impervious to pain.

I can believe all that. Scary bloke, I wouldn't have wanted to cross his path in his criminal heyday. But I do respect those guys, the way they survived the brutality of jail and came out stronger than ever. And they had a certain code that the young thugs these days have no concept of.

Johnson began to decline after he had won the title, he knew he had the skills to outpoint his limited opponents and did not train seriously, the washboard stomach disappeared, never to be seen again after the Ketchel fight. Photos of Johnson at the time of the Willard defence show him carrying lard around his arse and midsection,Willard in contrast is raw boned and lean ,his turn would come in Toledo, against Dempsey .

Willard weighed 238 against Johnson, according to boxrec.
And was a whopping 259 a year later against Frank Moran (confirmed in New York Times reports I've read).
He managed 245 against Dempsey, but he was certainly looking softer than he'd been against Johnson.





I am 61 in two months ,and my six pack is now a sick pack , but I like my real ale .


:lol::lol::lol:

[Dempsey1238]

Not at all. A belly doesn't just "happen".
Having a flabby midsection where there used to be a flat six-pack is obviously and clearly a case of being "out of shape". I cant think of a clearer case, or example.

Being 37 doesn't make it inevitable that you'll have a belly. It only happens to "most people" because most people are slobs.
Anyone who stays active and doesn't over-eat and slob-around and drink ought to be in the same sort of physical shape at 37 (and beyond) as they were at 22.
Johnson was out of shape. Not horribly out of shape. But noticeably out of shape.


You have to be in shape to last as long as Johnson did in that heat.
Johnson was in good fighting shape, But also Johnson like to lived hard, the wine and lifestyle he lead, was perhaps a reason for his gut. During his exile of couse.

He was not James Toney fat, but a little over weight.

[Mendoza]

mcvey says:
Where did I say Johnson was imprisoned BEFORE the fight ?


Mendoza says:You said,
Johnson was past his best then , a year in jail did him no favours - McVey in this thread.

As I pointed out, Johnson did not spend a year in jail prior to meeting Willard. Its not my reading, its your lack of acumen.

Also, can you show me a link on the heat? The temperature you reported is most certainly false. Over 100 degrees in the Cuba in April?. Another bogus statement.

[mcvey]

Mendoza says:You said,

As I pointed out, Johnson did not spend a year in jail prior to meeting Willard. Its not my reading, its your lack of acumen.

Also, can you show me a link on the heat? The temperature you reported is most certainly false. Over 100 degrees in the Cuba in April?. Another bogus statement.

You took a quote out of context ,plus that is not my last post,can you not count?
Do you seriously think I don't know when Johnson went to jail ?
I have even posted the day he turned himself over to the US authorities ,and the names of the two representatives of the law he met at the border .

Listen, Mr Pathetic, try and keep up , you aren't worthy of an argument.
So this is what I'll do , Jack Johnson defended his title in Havana , Cuba, on April 5th 1915, it was the coldest day in living memory , a record low for the country.There, how's that?

How desperate are you?

You must hate me nearly as much as you hate Jack Johnson.
Get with the programme, Dr Z too much onanism over Mr Jeffries appears to have addled your senses.

[he grant]

You two are definately the Hatfields and the McCoys of this board ! And both knowledgable guys to boot ...

[Mendoza]

You took a quote out of context ,plus that is not my last post,can you not count?

You are a sad moron. You made up for your own mistake I see. It doesn't matter. Those who keep score know your not much of a match for anyone here. But please do show me that 105 degree heat the day of the fight. I like to see you get one right.

[SuzieQ49]

johnson had a tire around his belly when he fought willard. he was grossely out of shape.


I find it amusing Johnson toyed with Willard at 44 years old. I always felt the Black fearsome four Langford, Wills, Jeanette, Johnson were much better than most of the white fighters during that period....such a shame the white fighters of the late teens refused to fight them even when they were old. The only one they did fight, Harry Wills, gave them Spanking after Spanking(Fulton, Firpo). Even 175lb Kid Norfolk beat Harry Greb, Billey Miske, yet never got a title shot.

[mcvey]

You are a sad moron. You made up for your own mistake I see. It doesn't matter. Those who keep score know your not much of a match for anyone here. But please do show me that 105 degree heat the day of the fight. I like to see you get one right.

Six sentences,and only two spelling mistakes. I am impressed, you have obviously taken my words to heart.
Another five, or six years ,and you will be on a par with a retarded Chimp. :good

[Unforgiven]

You have to be in shape to last as long as Johnson did in that heat.
Johnson was in good fighting shape, But also Johnson like to lived hard, the wine and lifestyle he lead, was perhaps a reason for his gut. During his exile of couse.

He was not James Toney fat, but a little over weight.

He was quite fat.
20 pounds overweight, and no where near as muscular as he had looked in his prime. It was at least 20 pounds of sheer unwanted flab.
Out of shape means out of shape, and Johnson was just that.

He was a relaxed experienced fighter with a strong mind and a ton of guile, hence he went 26 rounds in the heat.

As you say, the wine and lifestyle put him out of shape.
And whatever shape he was in for Willard, it wasn't "good", because the lifestyle showed on him clearly.

[Mendoza]

johnson had a tire around his belly when he fought willard. he was grossely out of shape.


I find it amusing Johnson toyed with Willard at 44 years old. I always felt the Black fearsome four Langford, Wills, Jeanette, Johnson were much better than most of the white fighters during that period....such a shame the white fighters of the late teens refused to fight them even when they were old. The only one they did fight, Harry Wills, gave them Spanking after Spanking(Fulton, Firpo). Even 175lb Kid Norfolk beat Harry Greb, Billey Miske, yet never got a title shot.

Johnson was 37 years of age when he meet Willard. While he was past his best, he did hire Sam Mcvey to spar with him and get him into shape for the fight.

Sometimes a belly is not the true indication of whether a boxer in in shape or not. Out of shape fighters don't go 15+ rounds.

The story of the fight for those who have seen most of the rounds is Johnson could not hurt Willard. Johnson was rather active by his own standards for the first ten rounds.

While he was not in peak condition, he was far from being grossly over weight and out of shape.

[Mendoza]

Six sentences,and only two spelling mistakes. I am impressed, you have obviously taken my words to heart.
Another five, or six years ,and you will be on a par with a retarded Chimp. :good

Godfrey " Old Chocolate ",was overated imo,his record has quite a few stoppage losses on it, he couldnt master KIlrain ,and he wouldn't master Sullivan ,who wins by a ko inside 8 rds.

Hey spell check police, overrated has two r's in it, and there is a ' in couldn't, and " i " in Kilrain is lowercase.

It would be best for you not to rip someone else's spelling and grammar. I count three mistakes in one sentence here! The above quote are your words and can be read in the Sullivan thread. :)

As for the chimp comment, we both you lose your temper rather quickly here. It is a sign of your intellectually frustration. :D

I can toy with you as if the game was chess. If I choose, I will keep you in on the defensive as I take away your all of your pieces one by one. It must be hard being you as I keep you in " check " all too often. In fact I think this game is nearly over! When can I expect you to start screaming racial insults, using CAPS in your replies?

Now can you show me some sources for once on the temperature of the fight? I can ask 100 times. You simply ignore my questions when you know your wrong.

Check.

[Unforgiven]

Sometimes a belly is not the true indication of whether a boxer in in shape or not. Out of shape fighters don't go 15+ rounds.

A belly on a fighter who used to sport a washboard is a pretty strong indicator.
If out of shape doesn't mean out of shape, then maybe no one was ever out of shape.

Larry Holmes v. Butterbean shows how 10 rounds is possible for disgraceful slobs. Surely those two were out of shape. And if they'd been 20 pounds lighter each they probably would have managed 15+ rounds and they would have still been GROSSLY out of shape.

Johnson was out of shape, but fit enough and good enough (going rounds is largely mental, I think) to last into the 26th.

[Mendoza]

A belly on a fighter who used to sport a washboard is a pretty strong indicator.
If out of shape doesn't mean out of shape, then maybe no one was ever out of shape.

Larry Holmes v. Butterbean shows how 10 rounds is possible for disgraceful slobs. Surely those two were out of shape. And if they'd been 20 pounds lighter each they probably would have managed 15+ rounds and they would have still been GROSSLY out of shape.

Johnson was out of shape, but fit enough and good enough (going rounds is largely mental, I think) to last into the 26th.

Wasn't Holmes 50 when he fought Butterbean? 50 is a long way from 37.

While I agree Johnson wasn't in ideal shape, he looked good on the film for the first 10-15 rounds. In fact Johnson threw double the amount of punches he did in the Burns, Flynn or Jeffries fight vs Willard. For once his hands were rather active.

This is a case where the film proves Johnson wasn't out of shape. Remember, back in those days transportation as we know it was very limited and one had to crack a sweat to do life's mundane tasks.

The ending of the fight is also misunderstood. Most fans have only seen the KO punch. Few have seen Willard nearly drop Johnson with body shots in rounds prior to the KO punch.

[mcvey]

Hey spell check police, overrated has two r's in it, and there is a ' in couldn't, and " i " in Kilrain is lowercase.

It would be best for you not to rip someone else's spelling and grammar. I count three mistakes in one sentence here! The above quote are your words and can be read in the Sullivan thread. :)

As for the chimp comment, we both you lose your temper rather quickly here. It is a sign of your intellectually frustration. :D

I can toy with you as if the game was chess. If I choose, I will keep you in on the defensive as I take away your all of your pieces one by one. It must be hard being you as I keep you in " check " all too often. In fact I think this game is nearly over! When can I expect you to start screaming racial insults, using CAPS in your replies?

Now can you show me some sources for once on the temperature of the fight? I can ask 100 times. You simply ignore my questions when you know your wrong.

Check.

I will try and explain this to you.
First Suzie's post ,why did you pull him up on his simple mistake of substituting Willard with Firpo?
It was obvious he was referring to Johnson's sparring with Firpo.
Johnson by the way was 45 not 44.
Are you borderline autistic?
I mean this seriously and without insult. I ask because one of the most noticeable characteristics of autism,can be a very literal way of looking at things, to the exclusion of all else,it makes a person appear very pedantic.
If that is indeed the case, it would explain many of your posts. I will refrain from questioning you on your grammar and phrasing in future .
Now to the Johnson Willard fight etc.
Johnson was undoubtedly past his best for the Willard fight, and 4 years roaming around the world , followed by a year in jail meant that his time had irretreivably come and gone.[that is what I meant when I said a year in jail did him no favours],the concept that he was still a real threat to the heavyweight crown is false.

Embarrassing the crude Firpo in sparring is one thing, facing a prime Dempsey when in your mid 40's is another.
If I was not objective on the subject of Johnson ,I would say he was still a great fighter and avoided by everyone, truth is his skills had eroded along with his stamina.He was a yesterday man.

The Willard fight,Willard trained with an intensity he never showed in later fights,he was brutal to his sparring partners and several times sessions had to be cancelled because of injuries to them.

Johnson spent a lot of time driving racing cars and swimming he did not try to whip himself into the shape needed to defeat such a big strong giant who was determined to take his title,overcomplacency and conceit were Johnson's downfall.
Johnson stayed at the Palace Hotel for the duration of the fight,Nat Fleischer was also a guest there, he reported later,"Johnson was arrogant and confident,but his carousing in France and Argentina, had softened him".

I don't think Johnson did as much in the 1st 10 rounds as you say,though he won them, he fought at his customarily leisurely pace,after the 10 th rd Johnson ,increased the pace and began to make concerted efforts to dominate the giant,for the next 10 rds Johnson hammered away at the cowboy ,but after over an hour of fighting Willard was still on his feet ,and Johnson was near exhaustion.
Willard outlasted Johnson,because Johnson was not in the shape needed to fight 45 rds,and Willard, at his best was a very durable fighter,indeed I doubt Johnson would have stopped him at any time in his career, though I think he would have outboxed him comfortably ,as he did in Havana for nearly 20rds.
I dont speak Portugese, so finding a link in Cuban papers for the weather is impossible but several newspapers have mentioned the temperature.
No matter at that stage of his career , Johnson would have lost if they had fought in December, imo.

[mcvey]

]Wasn't Holmes 50 when he fought Butterbean? 50 is a long way from 37.[/U]

While I agree Johnson wasn't in ideal shape, he looked good on the film for the first 10-15 rounds. In fact Johnson threw double the amount of punches he did in the Burns, Flynn or Jeffries fight vs Willard. For once his hands were rather active.

This is a case where the film proves Johnson wasn't out of shape. Remember, back in those days transportation as we know it was very limited and one had to crack a sweat to do life's mundane tasks.

The ending of the fight is also misunderstood. Most fans have only seen the KO punch. Few have seen Willard nearly drop Johnson with body shots in rounds prior to the KO punch.

And Butterbean was an obese 4 round tough man fighter,whereas Johnson was fighting a 6 foot 6 and a quarter 230lbs giant, trained to the minute ,over a scheduled 45rds distance, a man who would be the next Heavyweight Champion of the World.Slight difference I think.

[TheGreatA]

Johnson looked a bit like James Toney looks like today when he fought Willard. Now Toney can go rounds but no one would call him "in shape". It's all experience and ability to relax and conserve energy in the ring.

Willard on the other hand was in the shape of his life.

[Unforgiven]

Wasn't Holmes 50 when he fought Butterbean? 50 is a long way from 37.

Which further illustrates the point. A grossly out of shape 52 year old goes 10 rounds, which should shed some doubt on your statement that out of shape fighters cannot go 15+.

Muhammad Ali went 15 rounds several times while obviously well out of shape, and looked like he could have gone another 5 or 10 lame rounds too.



While I agree Johnson wasn't in ideal shape, he looked good on the film for the first 10-15 rounds. In fact Johnson threw double the amount of punches he did in the Burns, Flynn or Jeffries fight vs Willard. For once his hands were rather active.




You say "he wasn't in ideal shape". That's right. He was visibly out of shape. The reason he threw so many punches was because he knew he wasn't in shape to go the 45 round distance, and he knew Willard could outlast him over a long fight.

Carrying flab is like carrying dead weight. He might be fit enough to carry that 20 pounds of extra flab for 26 rounds, but obviously he'd have more energy left if he'd not been carrying those 20 pounds.
Also, flab slows a man down and affects his movement.

This is a case where the film proves Johnson wasn't out of shape.


No, it proves he was out of shape.

Remember, back in those days transportation as we know it was very limited and one had to crack a sweat to do life's mundane tasks.

Irrelevant.
The relative fitness of the average man from then to the average man now is completely irrelevant to whether fat spare-tyre Johnson was out of shape.
The average man then couldn't have gone 26 rounds with Willard, so what ? Johnson could have been 100 times fitter than I've ever been in 1915, but he was still out of shape.
Besides, Johnson was known for driving his automobiles.

It's ridiculous to say Jack Johnson wasn't out of shape against Willard.
Just as it's ridiculous to say Muhammad Ali wasn't out of shape for the Jimmy Young fight.

[mcvey]

Which further illustrates the point. A grossly out of shape 52 year old goes 10 rounds, which should shed some doubt on your statement that out of shape fighters cannot go 15+.

Muhammad Ali went 15 rounds several times while obviously well out of shape, and looked like he could have gone another 5 or 10 lame rounds too.




You say "he wasn't in ideal shape". That's right. He was visibly out of shape. The reason he threw so many punches was because he knew he wasn't in shape to go the 45 round distance, and he knew Willard could outlast him over a long fight.

Carrying flab is like carrying dead weight. He might be fit enough to carry that 20 pounds of extra flab for 26 rounds, but obviously he'd have more energy left if he'd not been carrying those 20 pounds.
Also, flab slows a man down and affects his movement.




No, it proves he was out of shape.



Irrelevant.
The relative fitness of the average man from then to the average man now is completely irrelevant to whether fat spare-tyre Johnson was out of shape.
The average man then couldn't have gone 26 rounds with Willard, so what ? Johnson could have been 100 times fitter than I've ever been in 1915, but he was still out of shape.
Besides, Johnson was known for driving his automobiles.

It's ridiculous to say Jack Johnson wasn't out of shape against Willard.
Just as it's ridiculous to say Muhammad Ali wasn't out of shape for the Jimmy Young fight.

Excellent objective post,his condition coupled with his 37 years were too much of an obstacle to surmount, everything was geared to a Willard victory, the timing of the Kansan's challenge and the 45 rd distance.
And dont you just get tired of hearing how Jimmy Young fought so well against a 230lbs Ali?

[mcvey]

Johnson looked a bit like James Toney looks like today when he fought Willard. Now Toney can go rounds but no one would call him "in shape". It's all experience and ability to relax and conserve energy in the ring.

Willard on the other hand was in the shape of his life.

You mentioned experience and the ability to relax , very valid points,but could Toney go 26rds in Cuban heat , carrying the fight to a giant?

[TheGreatA]

You mentioned experience and the ability to relax , very valid points,but could Toney go 26rds in Cuban heat , carrying the fight to a giant?

He always runs out of gas when he tries to carry the fight to anybody so probably not. Willard would also have even more of a size advantage over Toney than Jack Johnson. I'm positive that he could go 26 rounds though, he likely goes that and more in the gym every day.

Johnson did the best thing he could which was to try and take Willard out in the early stages of the fight because he had no chance of going 45 rounds in the shape he was in. He survived to the 26th round mostly with guile and partly due to Willard's lack of aggression.

[mcvey]

He always runs out of gas when he tries to carry the fight to anybody so probably not. Willard would also have even more of a size advantage over Toney than Jack Johnson. I'm positive that he could go 26 rounds though, he likely goes that and more in the gym every day.

Johnson did the best thing he could which was to try and take Willard out in the early stages of the fight because he had no chance of going 45 rounds in the shape he was in. He survived to the 26th round mostly with guile and partly due to Willard's lack of aggression.

True ,unfortunately for Johnson, Willard had a very good chin.

[Hydraulix]

That knockout blow from Willard was real. Johnson even attempted to clinch onto Willard to keep from falling down. The punch was legit, but I do think Johnson could have gotten up if he wanted to. Instead, he lay there shielding his face from the sun. I do believe that if he had gotten up, he would have taken more punishment.

[mcvey]

That knockout blow from Willard was real. Johnson even attempted to clinch onto Willard to keep from falling down. The punch was legit, but I do think Johnson could have gotten up if he wanted to. Instead, he lay there shielding his face from the sun. I do believe that if he had gotten up, he would have taken more punishment.

Your post is quite hard to read in blue print.
The photo of Johnson ,gloves up over his face ,legs drawn up as if to avoid the hot canvas, is often used to try and show that Johnson took a dive,seconds after the photo was taken Johnson's arms came down and his legs relaxed into a stretched out position,the ko was legit .

[Mendoza]

Unforgiven says: Which further illustrates the point. A grossly out of shape 52 year old goes 10 rounds, which should shed some doubt on your statement that out of shape fighters cannot go 15+.

Muhammad Ali went 15 rounds several times while obviously well out of shape, and looked like he could have gone another 5 or 10 lame rounds too.

Some older fighters tend to fight in spurts and use ring generalship to win. This is what Holmes and Foreman did as older fighter. That is what James Toney does now.

Johnson in this fight fought nothing like Holmes did vs. Butterbean. He let his hands go and was very active.

You say "he wasn't in ideal shape". That's right. He was visibly out of shape. The reason he threw so many punches was because he knew he wasn't in shape to go the 45 round distance, and he knew Willard could outlast him over a long fight.

Perhaps, but Willard was slow and clumsy. If Jack wanted to play defense instead of going for the KO, I think he could have lasted longer.


Carrying flab is like carrying dead weight. He might be fit enough to carry that 20 pounds of extra flab for 26 rounds, but obviously he'd have more energy left if he'd not been carrying those 20 pounds.
Also, flab slows a man down and affects his movement.


Agreed, but if Johnson's ideal weight was 210 pounds, this is only 15 more. Johnson was 220 pounds for Moran, and had little trouble going 20. As I said before, the films show that Willard's body attack wore Johnson down, perhaps as much or more than Johnson's lack of being in ideal shape. Regarding the weights of the Johnson vs. Willard fight, I believe the weights vary a bit depending on the source.

[mcvey]

Some older fighters tend to fight in spurts and use ring generalship to win. This is what Holmes and Foreman did as older fighter. That is what James Toney does now.

Johnson in this fight fought nothing like Holmes did vs. Butterbean. He let his hands go and was very active.



Perhaps, but Willard was slow and clumsy. If Jack wanted to play defense instead of going for the KO, I think he could have lasted longer.



Agreed, but if Johnson's ideal weight was 210 pounds, this is only 15 more. Johnson was 220 pounds for Moran, and had little trouble going 20. As I said before, the films show that Willard's body attack wore Johnson down, perhaps as much or more than Johnson's lack of being in ideal shape. Regarding the weights of the Johnson vs. Willard fight, I believe the weights vary a bit depending on the source.

In a thread about Johnson's win over Langford when Johnson's weight was discussed [ he was 185lbs for that fight, to Langford's 156lbs,you said Johnson was about his ideal weight for that fight. Now you postulate that Johnson's ideal weight was 210lbs .Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

[Rock0052]

johnson had a tire around his belly when he fought willard. he was grossely out of shape.


I find it amusing Johnson toyed with Willard at 44 years old. I always felt the Black fearsome four Langford, Wills, Jeanette, Johnson were much better than most of the white fighters during that period....such a shame the white fighters of the late teens refused to fight them even when they were old. The only one they did fight, Harry Wills, gave them Spanking after Spanking(Fulton, Firpo). Even 175lb Kid Norfolk beat Harry Greb, Billey Miske, yet never got a title shot.


Fulton did fight (and beat) Langford twice, putting Sam in the hospital after their first encounter a few years prior to Wills knocking him out.