Dempsey VS Today's active heavyweights

[Maxmomer]

How do you think Dempsey would perform against the best of today's heavyweight division? Seeing as I'm no expert on the heavyweights of today, as they all seem fat, slow and boring to me, I can't really say with any acuraccy.

[Grebfan9]

Dempsey was a MUCH better fighter than many people realize.

Dempsey was NOT a one-dimensional crude slugger. Rather,
he displayed good footwork, excellent bobbing/weaving, and
put his punches together extremely well.

Dempsey also had great handspeed combined with KO power.

I think that Dempsey would have prevailed against many of the
current heavyweights.

[Maxmomer]

Dempsey was a MUCH better fighter than many people realize.

Dempsey was NOT a one-dimensional crude slugger. Rather,
he displayed good footwork, excellent bobbing/weaving, and
put his punches together extremely well.

Dempsey also had great handspeed combined with KO power.

I think that Dempsey would have prevailed against many of the
current heavyweights.

You're preaching to the choir their, buddy. Personally I rate Dempsey as a top 3 heavyweight of all time, second only to Ali and tied with Louis. I spent a day and a half arguing why I thought Dempsey would beat Marciano Head to Head on the general board. I want to say that Dempsey would pound all the current heavyweights to shit.

[robert ungurean]

You're preaching to the choir their, buddy. Personally I rate Dempsey as a top 3 heavyweight of all time, second only to Ali and tied with Louis. I spent a day and a half arguing why I thought Dempsey would beat Marciano Head to Head on the general board. I want to say that Dempsey would pound all the current heavyweights to shit. I agree although I rate him second, Louis third.

[Maxmomer]

I agree although I rate him second, Louis third.
I might, too. Honestly, it depends on which day you ask me. After reading part of Dempsey's book "Championship Fighting: Explosive Punching and Aggressive Defense" he's pulling ahead a bit.

[ChrisPontius]

Here was my post when he made a thread about it in the general forum:


Let's research that claim.

The current top10 from Boxrec:
(i don't agree with all of their choices, but let's go with them for the moment)

1. Wladimir Klitschko
Not fat.

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2. Samuel Peter
He is somewhat overweight. In december 2005, in his fight against Klitschko he was in good shape at 244lb when you could see his abs. Right now he's at 248lb which is 4 pounds to much, could maybe lose a bit more.

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3. Ruslan Chagaev
Like Peter he's build like a tank. Looked good at 228lb against Valuev. Not fat.


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4. Oleg Maskaev
Is in good shape considering the fact that at the age of 37 you naturally gain some weight. You can see this in any boxer's career.

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5. Nicolai Valuev
He has some fat but that seems to more because of his giant syndrom than lack of training. He is well conditioned and throws 45+ punches a round over 12 despite being 320 lb.

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6. Sultan Ibragimov
Came in overweight in his fight against Austin and looked mediocre, but has learned from it and came in at great shape against Briggs and his earlier fights, around 221lb.


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7. Tony Thompson
Is a big guy at 6'5 245lb. Not fat. I don't know why he's in the top10, but anyway.


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8. Vladimir Virchis
Another huge guy, not overweight. Couldn't find a bigger pic.

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9. Matt Skelton
Again i don't know why he's in the top10.
He is a bit too heavy, but do realise that he's 39 at which age you'll nature put on some pounds.

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10. John Ruiz
Not fat.


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To conclude, from the top10, only Peter and Skelton (who doesn't belong in the top10 anyway) are a bit overweight.
That is 2 out of 10 and it's not like they're grossly overweight. Heavyweights have always been the big guys who sometimes carry around some flap.


Now let's do a comparison with an other random era:

1995, ring top10:

Heavyweights

Title Vacant

1. Riddick Bowe (FAT)
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Mike Tyson
4. Michael Moorer
5. Evander Holyfield
6. Bruce Seldon
7. Frank Bruno
8. George Foreman (FAT)
9. Alexander Zolkin
10. Henry Akinwande

Of that list, Foreman and Bowe are overweight. That's 2 out of 10, just like today. What's more, they are more overweight that Peter and Skelton are.

Now let's look at 1985, ring rankings:

Michael Spinks, Champion

1. Pinklon Thomas
2. Larry Holmes
3. Tim Witherspoon
4. Tony Tubbs (FAT)
5. Greg Page (FAT)
6. Gerrie Coetzee (FAT)
7. Trevor Berbick
8. Carl Williams
9. Mike Weaver
10. Michael Dokes (FAT)

Of this list, 4 are overweight: Tubbs, Dokes, Page and Coetzee. And all of them to a larger extent than Peter and Skelton are.


As you can see, it's nothing new; in fact it has been worse in the past.
My guess is that the reason for the recent criticism is because there have been a few extremes recently (Toney & Johnson) and mostly, because people don't like the current heavyweights.

[ChrisPontius]

Seeing as I'm no expert on the heavyweights of today, as they all seem fat, slow and boring to me, I can't really say with any acuraccy.

Saying that "all" current heavyweights are fat seems to be the last straw to reach before accepting that they aren't 185 pound matchsticks like Dempsey used to face. And of course i'm not talking about the 37 year old, unathletic skill-less (and fat himself) out of shape Willard or the even lesser skilled Firpo, the only big guy he faced and whom he should've lost to be DQ.

[Mendoza]

Dempsey was a MUCH better fighter than many people realize.

Dempsey was NOT a one-dimensional crude slugger. Rather,
he displayed good footwork, excellent bobbing/weaving, and
put his punches together extremely well.

Dempsey also had great handspeed combined with KO power.

I think that Dempsey would have prevailed against many of the
current heavyweights.

Very true. Dempsey wasn’t just a slugger. He was quick on his feet, had some good defensive maneuvers, excellent hand speed, and could throw combinations and packed dynamite in both mitts. Dempsey would need to refine his technique a tad, but nothing outside the realms of his athletic limitations.

I think Dempsey would be one of the champs for sure today, but I can’t see him being undefeated.

[joe33]

He would murder the bums,no to be honest he would have a good chance id say of beating all the main men about,imagine the panic for example he would cause wlad if he got in close to him and began to batter him in close,not sure if wlad would be able to keep such a beast of a fighter of him.

[Grebfan9]

I respectfully disagree. Dempsey did so well against BIG heavyweights
because of his combination of speed/power.

Remember that Tommy Gibbons lasted the distance with Jack.
Fat Willie Meehan, in reality a overweight middleweight, gave
Dempsey fits when they fought. Tunney was a "small" heavyweight
who moved up from the Lightheavyweight division. Harry Greb
got the better of Dempsey in sparring sessions. Gunboat
Smith, really a lighheavy, gave Jack a rough time too.

Dempsey beat Fred Fulton, Carl Morris, Jess Willard, Luis Firpo,
with vicious abandon. His spped against the big guys was the
difference. BTW, Dempsey's right hand to the body - left
hook to the head combo was very effective and brutal!!!


If Dempsey had to keep fighting men that are 50-70lbs. heavier than himself in fight after fight he would become damaged goods. Jerry Quarry won a lot of fights against bigger guys and his brain became severely damaged as a result. Even when Dempsey beats one of these guys he is still getting hit back. Beating the likes of big men like Fred Fulton, Willard, Firpo, etc. is a far cry from being able to beat a skilled big man of today. Dempsey would have a better chance of beating someone like Holyfield then beating the jumbo sized modern heavyweights like Bowe, Lewis, the Klitschkos, Peter. Just my humble opinion.

[JIm Broughton]

Of all the HW champs from the 1st half of the last century(1900-1950) Jack Dempsey would probably bethe one best suited to cope with todays big modern HWs. His bob and weave in and out style combined with his chin and power would help him against todays much bigger men. That does NOT mean that he would dominate however. An earlier post used Jerry Quarry as an example of a good small to medium sized HW(by 1970's standards) against the bigger men of his day. While Jerry had his fair share of victories during that era I believe his size,or lack of it, hurt him at times and I believe the same would be true for Dempsey. Against a stiff or near stiff Dempsey would have a picnic. Against a big modern HW with skills he would'nt. Let's face it, these fighters today are BIG. Men like Klitschko,Peter,Lewis etc are much bigger and more skilled that anything the HW's of 50-100 yrs ago faced. The big men of yesterday were'nt as lethal as todays monsters. Carnera/Willard et al would be trounced by the likes of Vlad/Lennox/Peter etc. Athletes in general today are much bigger/faster and stronger than thier counterparts of yesterday. If Dempsey were fighting today, he would be fighting men who regularly outweigh him by 40-50lbs. Even for a fighter like Jack that would take a toll. These men today(the good ones anyway) employ a more modern style of boxing. Use of the jab, combinations etc..This was nearly nonexistent in the big men of yesterday(even among a lot of the smaller ones too) and alot of the modern big men move fast enough, at least for thier size. So while I agree That Jack would do well in todays era,I don't think he would be the force that he was in his own time. More quality big men. And in athletics size does matter.

[janitor]

Saying that "all" current heavyweights are fat seems to be the last straw to reach before accepting that they aren't 185 pound matchsticks like Dempsey used to face.

Mate your previous post beutifully illustrates that most of the top 10 today are fat unconditioned slobs. Chagev, Maskaev, Peter and Ibragimov are frankly a disgrace. I walk the street in better shape than these guys enter the ring and I am not a profesional boxer. Wlad is the only fighter in the top 10 that I can respect as a student of boxing history.

[brooklyn1550]

Mate your previous post beutifully illustrates that most of the top 10 today are fat unconditioned slobs. Chagev, Maskaev, Peter and Ibragimov are frankly a disgrace. I walk the street in better shape than these guys enter the ring and I am not a profesional boxer. Wlad is the only fighter in the top 10 that I can respect as a student of boxing history.

Chagaev and Maskaev enter the ring in very good shape...especially Maskaev. He is always in shape and always comes to fight. And all of those you listed still have the stamina to fight 12 rounds. You have to respect all of them - none are disgraces.

[Maxmomer]

Of all the HW champs from the 1st half of the last century(1900-1950) Jack Dempsey would probably bethe one best suited to cope with todays big modern HWs. His bob and weave in and out style combined with his chin and power would help him against todays much bigger men. That does NOT mean that he would dominate however. An earlier post used Jerry Quarry as an example of a good small to medium sized HW(by 1970's standards) against the bigger men of his day. While Jerry had his fair share of victories during that era I believe his size,or lack of it, hurt him at times and I believe the same would be true for Dempsey. Against a stiff or near stiff Dempsey would have a picnic. Against a big modern HW with skills he would'nt. Let's face it, these fighters today are BIG. Men like Klitschko,Peter,Lewis etc are much bigger and more skilled that anything the HW's of 50-100 yrs ago faced. The big men of yesterday were'nt as lethal as todays monsters. Carnera/Willard et al would be trounced by the likes of Vlad/Lennox/Peter etc. Athletes in general today are much bigger/faster and stronger than thier counterparts of yesterday. If Dempsey were fighting today, he would be fighting men who regularly outweigh him by 40-50lbs. Even for a fighter like Jack that would take a toll. These men today(the good ones anyway) employ a more modern style of boxing. Use of the jab, combinations etc..This was nearly nonexistent in the big men of yesterday(even among a lot of the smaller ones too) and alot of the modern big men move fast enough, at least for thier size. So while I agree That Jack would do well in todays era,I don't think he would be the force that he was in his own time. More quality big men. And in athletics size does matter.
You really think Peter is THAT skilled? And Wlad may have skills but he doesn't have a great chin, which is why I think Dempsey'd be able to beat him. I also don't think writing off all of Dempsey's larger opponents as unskilled is entirly fair as we don't really have the film to judge for ourselves.

[Street Lethal]

People have Dempsey tied with and even above Louis in their rankings.

Joe Louis would slaughter Jack Dempsey.

[Maxmomer]

People have Dempsey tied with and even above Louis in their rankings.

Joe Louis would slaughter Jack Dempsey.

I doubt that. I think in a series of three Dempey would take 2 from Louis.

[janitor]

Chagaev and Maskaev enter the ring in very good shape...especially Maskaev. He is always in shape and always comes to fight. And all of those you listed still have the stamina to fight 12 rounds. You have to respect all of them - none are disgraces.

In the 30s or 50s they would have been riped apart by the press for coming into the ring in that condition.

It is all verry well saying that they are only a bit fat but what else exactly do they have to do with their time apart from get into shape for their next fight?

A profesional fighter should have the muscle detail showing on his gut. It is the case in the lower weight clases and heavyweights should train to the same standard.

[janitor]

People have Dempsey tied with and even above Louis in their rankings.

Joe Louis would slaughter Jack Dempsey.

Well one of them would have been slaughtered.

That is all that I can guarantee.

[Maxmomer]

Well one of them would have been slaughtered.

That is all that I can guarantee.

I think they'd both look like they were run over by motor scooters again and again for 12 straight hours.

[janitor]

They just can´t look like a Tyson or an Ali, it´s not in their genes. A lot of guys of eastern europe have a physique like that. That has nothing to do with shape. And neither Maskaev nor Chagaev ever had problems with going the full 12 rounds.

There is a saying at weightwatchers meetings.

"The only reason why you are ever too fat is because you eat too much".

Rocky Marciano had bad genes for reducing fat. He gave it a good try however.

[Street Lethal]

I think they'd both look like they were run over by motor scooters again and again for 12 straight hours.
I think some of you have an exaggerated opinion of Jack Dempsey.

Scratch that: I know you do.

[Dempsey1238]

You dont need to look rip to be a great fighter. Fitz look far from the perfect body type yet he gave Jeff and Sharkey great battles. 2 guys that were rip.

[Maxmomer]

Yeah. I am very unimpressed with Dempsey's resume. I look at the names and I think, people consider this guy to be a top 3 (or even better) heavyweight?
He beat almost all the best fighters of his era in his prime and even past it, not to mention scored the most first round knockout's in history and was never stopped himself. That's a pretty damn good resume to me. Not to mention the influence he had on the sport. Top three is very reasonable to me.

[Maxmomer]

Well, he lacks the opposition of an Ali or Lewis and the reign of an Louis or Holmes to be ranked above them.

You honestly think Lewis should be rated above Dempsey on an ATG list?

[Jack]

I don't know why there is such an obssession with physiques. It's nothing like a reflection on talent. In most cases, a fat guy will lack stamina, but because this isn't always true, criticising a boxer for being overweight is strange. if it doesn't affect their fitness, speed or whatever, there is no problem.

I look at Chagaev, Povetkin, Peter etc., and think that despite being flabby, if they were ripped, not one would be a better fighter.

It's just their natural build and it suits their style of fighting. Weight doesn't go hand in hand with talent, so it baffles me whenever we get threads about todays heavyweights and the first few posts are laced with "THEY'RE ALL FAT BASTARDS!".

It's irrelevant unless weight is detrimental to the boxers skills.

[Street Lethal]

You honestly think Lewis should be rated above Dempsey on an ATG list?
No question whatsoever. Lewis would have crushed Dempsey.

[ChrisPontius]

Mate your previous post beutifully illustrates that most of the top 10 today are fat unconditioned slobs. Chagev, Maskaev, Peter and Ibragimov are frankly a disgrace. I walk the street in better shape than these guys enter the ring and I am not a profesional boxer. Wlad is the only fighter in the top 10 that I can respect as a student of boxing history.

How so? Accept the fact that they are naturally bigger as well as talented, instead of wild swingers like Firpo or old skill less farmerboys like Willard.

Sultan was overweight for a grand total of one fight in his entire career. Big deal. Sorry, but it looks like you only see what you want to see. He was in great shape in all his other fights and never showed stamina problems. Just because a guy weighs 220lb doesn't mean he's overweight. These days, people can be around that weight and be naturally filled out.

Peter is simply a wide motherfucker. At 244 you could still see his abs. They fight 12 rounds so it's a tactical decision to bulk up a bit to punch harder.

Like other people say, guys like Povetkin, S. Ibragimov, Maskaev, Valuev (special case) and others have body types that will never be ripped like a Harold Johnson. But that doesn't mean they're not in good shape. Looking at Marciano's body, you don't see a single sign of him being a gym addict. In fact, he looks like a person who's never worked out in his life. But like Ibragimov et al, it doesn't mean anything about his fighting shape. I don't want to be a racist, but white people on average have less talent to look muscular.

[Maxmomer]

I rank Lewis at #4 and Dempsey at #10.

Are you talking head to head or all things considered?

[OLD FOGEY]

He beat almost all the best fighters of his era in his prime and even past it, not to mention scored the most first round knockout's in history and was never stopped himself. That's a pretty damn good resume to me. Not to mention the influence he had on the sport. Top three is very reasonable to me.

He did not defeat Tunney or Greb, nor Wills and the other top black fighters of the late teens and twenties, such as Langford, Norfolk, or Godfrey. This weakens his resume.

Young Otto has the most first round knockouts in history. And Dempsey was stopped in one round by Flynn.

[mr. magoo]

You honestly think Lewis should be rated above Dempsey on an ATG list?

Defending your title but 6 times in 7 years, is definately a negative checkmark on a champion's career profile. In addition, failing to face top challengers due to their skin color, weakens a resume even more. Lennox Lewis definately fought better opposition and faced every top fighter of his era, while staying active.

[C. M. Clay II]

If Dempsey fought in today's era he would breeze through everyone except Wlad. He might have a little trouble with him, but he'll beat him nontheless.:good

[joe33]

I think some of you have an exaggerated opinion of Jack Dempsey.

Scratch that: I know you do.


How do you know that then?,bit big of you to say you know better then any one else here?
By any chance are you a black guy mate?,im sure as fuck half the crap rocky marciano and dempsey get is because of there colour,and because they (defintly in dempseys case) are seen as racist or in a bad era,why dont people just admit its this reason.

By the way demspey was tysons fav fighter ever,he hero worshiped the guy,and sorry but ill defintly take the word of tyson over most people on this board,if he says he would be a threat in any era then thats good enough for me,tyson obviously copied parts of jacks style,both were vicious killers in the ring,and both are my 2 fav heavys ever to be honest.

[Maxmomer]

Defending your title but 6 times in 7 years, is definately a negative checkmark on a champion's career profile. In addition, failing to face top challengers due to their skin color, weakens a resume even more. Lennox Lewis definately fought better opposition and faced every top fighter of his era, while staying active.

He was inactive as a champion but he was very active in the years leading up to it, and given the life he led up to that point and the conditions he lived in I think he was entitled to take it a little easy and try to rake in some cash once he finally made it. Also, everytime he defended the title it was against a very good opponent.

[janitor]

[quote=ChrisPontius]How so? Accept the fact that they are naturally bigger as well as talented, instead of wild swingers like Firpo or old skill less farmerboys like Willard.


They were naturaly bigger up to a point but don't get caried away. A good portion of their vaunted weight advantage was lard. You criticise the skills of Willard and Firpo but to be honest guys like Sam Peter are mediocre talents at best.

Sultan was overweight for a grand total of one fight in his entire career. Big deal.

Sultan has been overweight for every fight of his career. against Briggs for example he had a generous spare tyre.

Sorry, but it looks like you only see what you want to see. He was in great shape in all his other fights and never showed stamina problems.

I think you need your eyes testing. How many fighters from the 30s or 40s or even 80s came into the ring looking like Chagev, Peter or Ibragimov?

Name them.


Peter is simply a wide motherfucker. At 244 you could still see his abs. They fight 12 rounds so it's a tactical decision to bulk up a bit to punch harder.


At 244 lbs Peter has a belly. He didn't look all that great at 220 lbs either. No profesional fighter should be coming into the ring in this condition.

Like other people say, guys like Povetkin, S. Ibragimov, Maskaev, Valuev (special case) and others have body types that will never be ripped like a Harold Johnson.

Anybody can get into better shape than these guys. Genetics cannot explain away that much.

Yes some guys are never going to be ripped but nobody needs to come to the ring with a spare tyre. In the 1930s or 50s a contender who fought in this condition would be labeled a freak and grouped with Tony Galento.

[janitor]

I don't know why there is such an obssession with physiques. It's nothing like a reflection on talent. In most cases, a fat guy will lack stamina, but because this isn't always true, criticising a boxer for being overweight is strange. if it doesn't affect their fitness, speed or whatever, there is no problem.

I look at Chagaev, Povetkin, Peter etc., and think that despite being flabby, if they were ripped, not one would be a better fighter.

It's just their natural build and it suits their style of fighting. Weight doesn't go hand in hand with talent, so it baffles me whenever we get threads about todays heavyweights and the first few posts are laced with "THEY'RE ALL FAT BASTARDS!".

It's irrelevant unless weight is detrimental to the boxers skills.

You are right up to a point but when people turn around and say that this new generation of superheavyweights had a 40 lb weight advantage on sombody like Dempsey or Marciano you have to ask what you are getting for the 40 lbs. Perhaps verry little.

[janitor]

You are right with that, on the other hand there is nothing bad about having a physique like Chagaev when it doesn´t have a bad influence on your performance.

My experience is that fighters who come to the ring out of shape get away with it for many years but they eventualy cross a threshold where it catches up with them. James Toney being a case in point.

[Little_Mac]

Don't listen to the left-wing propaganda accussing Dempsey of avoiding black contenders. It is simply not the case.

What does ones placement on the political spectrum have to do with Dempsey and the color line? I consider myself more left wing and i don't think dempsey purposely avoided black fighters. Where are you hearing this?

[janitor]

Do you think Chagaev, Maskaev and Co are in the league of Toney in terms of beeing out of shape?

No but given their styles the point where it catches up with them is likley to be lower.

[ChrisPontius]

[quote]


They were naturaly bigger up to a point but don't get caried away. A good portion of their vaunted weight advantage was lard. You criticise the skills of Willard and Firpo but to be honest guys like Sam Peter are mediocre talents at best.


Peter indeed has mediocre skill, though he has improved a lot in his recent outing vs Toney in which he is still lightyears ahead of Firpo.


Sultan has been overweight for every fight of his career. against Briggs for example he had a generous spare tyre.

That is flatout ridiculous. Watch these random pictures from his fight with Briggs:

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If you think that is a spare tire then you are clearly biased or you also think Marciano carried a spare tire. Check it out:
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I think you need your eyes testing. How many fighters from the 30s or 40s or even 80s came into the ring looking like Chagev, Peter or Ibragimov?

Not many, bigger guys lacked the talent to consistenly beat their smaller counterparts back then.





At 244 lbs Peter has a belly. He didn't look all that great at 220 lbs either. No profesional fighter should be coming into the ring in this condition.


You mean 220lb when he was in the olympics?
That's like saying Ali was a blown up light heavyweight because he fought at that weight in the olympics.
Peter could lose a few pounds but he's a heavy hitter who focuses on heavy shots because he's never gonna be on his toes and box anyway, although he did a reasonable job against Toney.

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If he's hiding a spare tire then he hides it really well.





Anybody can get into better shape than these guys. Genetics cannot explain away that much.



Refer to the pics that i posted of Sultan. Check again.


Yes some guys are never going to be ripped but nobody needs to come to the ring with a spare tyre. In the 1930s or 50s a contender who fought in this condition would be labeled a freak and grouped with Tony Galento.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't Galento have an, in the eyes of many, very deserved and anticipated title shot and not only that, but managed to floor the champion? And this was not a Neon Leon kind of champion.

[ChrisPontius]

You are right up to a point but when people turn around and say that this new generation of superheavyweights had a 40 lb weight advantage on sombody like Dempsey or Marciano you have to ask what you are getting for the 40 lbs. Perhaps verry little.

I think they were referring to Lewis, Bowe and the Klitschko's, who indeed don't have 40lb in weight on them, but rather more like 50-60lb.

[sthomas]

To make it realistic, clone Dempsey and clone today's fighters, then train them all to be boxers. In 25 years, have a tournement with all of them. I bet Dempsey would do pretty darn well. Since we're talking fantasy here, might as go all the way and add som Sci-fi to the equation.

[janitor]

I think they were referring to Lewis, Bowe and the Klitschko's, who indeed don't have 40lb in weight on them, but rather more like 50-60lb.

They are a diferent case. They genuinely do represent something that had not been before.

That dose not however mean that fighters like Peter and Maskaev represent a new generation of super heavyweights.

[janitor]

[quote=ChrisPontius]
Peter indeed has mediocre skill, though he has improved a lot in his recent outing vs Toney in which he is still lightyears ahead of Firpo.


You might think diferently if you had some better footage of Firpo. Against Willard for example he looks a lot better than the Dempsey fight would suggest.


That is flatout ridiculous. Watch these random pictures from his fight with Briggs:

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These pictures do not contradict anything I have said. He clearly caries excess fat around his midriff above his trunks. I could probably find some pictures from a diferent angle that look less flatering still.



If you think that is a spare tire then you are clearly biased or you also think Marciano carried a spare tire. Check it out:
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There is nothing in this picture to suggest excess fat. Compare the muscle definition on Marcianos arms legs and torso to that of Ibragimov.


Not many, bigger guys lacked the talent to consistenly beat their smaller counterparts back then.


You seem to be arguing that only the smaller fighters were talented back then despite the fact that they were taught by the same trainers as the biger fighters.

Did big fighters just not bother to learn?


You mean 220lb when he was in the olympics?


Since you ask yes he was out of shape even then.



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If he's hiding a spare tire then he hides it really well.


Now look at a side view of him and you will se a much less flatering picture.


Refer to the pics that i posted of Sultan. Check again.


They seem to eminently suport my case.


Correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't Galento have an, in the eyes of many, very deserved and anticipated title shot and not only that, but managed to floor the champion? And this was not a Neon Leon kind of champion.


Yes Galento deserved his title shot but he was ridiculed in the press for his training habits and lack of conditioning. It was not something people were used to seeing.

[Senya13]

Galento deserved a title shot? You gotta be kidding me.

[Duodenum]

I completly disagree. Maskaev and Chagaev never had a fight where they were out of shape, they always in there to go the full 12 rounds on a good pace. They may not look like Ali or Tyson but that´s their physique. I have a similar one, i know plenty of guys who train much less than me but have a six-pack, i will never have one regardless what i do.So steroids didn't work for you, huh?:think

[ChrisPontius]

You might think diferently if you had some better footage of Firpo. Against Willard for example he looks a lot better than the Dempsey fight would suggest.



He is still far behind Peter. Willard was an ancient monument when he fought Firpo, 42 or 43 years old.


These pictures do not contradict anything I have said. He clearly caries excess fat around his midriff above his trunks. I could probably find some pictures from a diferent angle that look less flatering still.


Well i guess we're done discussing, then. You think that's a tire of excess fat, i think he's in good shape.



You seem to be arguing that only the smaller fighters were talented back then despite the fact that they were taught by the same trainers as the biger fighters.

Did big fighters just not bother to learn?


Um, talent has nothing to do with learning. You either have it or you don't. And they didn't have it. A trainer cannot make a fighter more or less talented, you know that Janitor.

There were simply to little people in the higher regions. Why have we never seen a hispanic heavyweight champion and rarely a solid contender, despite there having been tons of great hispanics at lightweight etc? Because their average size is 5'6 140lb. Consequence? Very few guys are naturally big therefore there is a lack of talent in that region and they are not able to compete with the talent from other people where there is talent in the XXL size.



Now look at a side view of him and you will se a much less flatering picture.


If he was more than 25lb overweight as you claim, then i don't think a frontal picture could hide it, unless he can carry the weight.

But here you go:

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Yes Galento deserved his title shot but he was ridiculed in the press for his training habits and lack of conditioning. It was not something people were used to seeing.

Yep. And still he went past twelve rounds several times if i remember correct. While i'm not advertising his conditioning, some fighters just have a different body type and boxing style and are conditioned accordingly. David Tua will always have some extra weight for exactly the same reason Galento does. Chagaev et all are a bit in between. But all of the above are fine fighters in their own right.

[ChrisPontius]

Galento deserved a title shot? You gotta be kidding me.

Tell me who else deserved the shot? You can only fight one at a time.
There was certainly enough interest in the fight and Galento was on a long winning streak.
There have been tons of far worse title challengers in history.


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[Senya13]

What were Galento's three best wins, outside of the Lou Nova foulfest? Deserved it, ha!

[Duodenum]

You're preaching to the choir their, buddy. Personally I rate Dempsey as a top 3 heavyweight of all time, second only to Ali and tied with Louis. I spent a day and a half arguing why I thought Dempsey would beat Marciano Head to Head on the general board. I want to say that Dempsey would pound all the current heavyweights to shit.And I'm still all "punched out" from supporting you on that thread. Please feel free to draw liberally from those posts I offered up, if it will suit your purpose. (As T.S. Eliot declared, "Mediocre writers borrow; great writers steal.")

[janitor]

Galento deserved a title shot? You gotta be kidding me.

Believe me I am not kiding.

Galento was coming off 11 consecutive knockouts including wins over several opf Louis's former title oponents.

[janitor]

[quote=ChrisPontius]He is still far behind Peter. Willard was an ancient monument when he fought Firpo, 42 or 43 years old.


Firpo apears much more proficient against Willard employing feints and showing fair boxing ability.

He dose not look good against Dempsey but it is difficult to look good when you are knocked down five times inside a round and the timing of the film is shot.


Well i guess we're done discussing, then. You think that's a tire of excess fat, i think he's in good shape.


Just look at what is in front of you!!

Study the muscle definition of both.



Um, talent has nothing to do with learning. You either have it or you don't. And they didn't have it. A trainer cannot make a fighter more or less talented, you know that Janitor.


Right but there is no reason why the smaller fighters should have an edge in technique.


If he was more than 25lb overweight as you claim, then i don't think a frontal picture could hide it, unless he can carry the weight.

But here you go:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]



[Only registered and activated users can see links]


These pictures don't show much. In the first Peter is turned away slightly and in the second his arm obscures his upper body so that the belly is less emphasized but still aparent.

Yep. And still he went past twelve rounds several times if i remember correct. While i'm not advertising his conditioning, some fighters just have a different body type and boxing style and are conditioned accordingly. David Tua will always have some extra weight for exactly the same reason Galento does. Chagaev et all are a bit in between. But all of the above are fine fighters in their own right.

They are fine fighters they just could be better.

[ChrisPontius]

Just look at what is in front of you!!

Study the muscle definition of both.


And then? Going by that, we'd conclude that Briggs is in excellent shape.
This is not a body building contest. Fighters need not be ripped. Fedor Emilianenko looks like a bus driver but he destroys all the 300+ lb ripped fighters they put in front of him.

Chagaev, Sultan, Povetkin et al are fighters and their bodies are a result of training for boxing, not body building. Some people have more talent for a muscular look but in the end it's the ability that counts. Which they most certainly have!


Right but there is no reason why the smaller fighters should have an edge in technique.


Technique to a large degree comes down to talent and dedication. A guy like Carnera or Valuev will never be a smooth, technical boxer because they are simply not like that, regardless of trainer.



These pictures don't show much. In the first Peter is turned away slightly and in the second his arm obscures his upper body so that the belly is less emphasized but still aparent.


Well, i'm not going to spend more time on this, i've provided plenty of pictures and you have made up your mind just like i have.

[janitor]

[quote=ChrisPontius]And then? Going by that, we'd conclude that Briggs is in excellent shape.
This is not a body building contest. Fighters need not be ripped. Fedor Emilianenko looks like a bus driver but he destroys all the 300+ lb ripped fighters they put in front of him.

Chagaev, Sultan, Povetkin et al are fighters and their bodies are a result of training for boxing, not body building.


Their build is the norm today while Marciano's level of definition was more the norm in his era.


Technique to a large degree comes down to talent and dedication. A guy like Carnera or Valuev will never be a smooth, technical boxer because they are simply not like that, regardless of trainer.


Carnera was a smooth technical boxer.

Well, i'm not going to spend more time on this, i've provided plenty of pictures and you have made up your mind just like i have.

Fair enough.

[Maxmomer]

And I'm still all "punched out" from supporting you on that thread. Please feel free to draw liberally from those posts I offered up, if it will suit your purpose. (As T.S. Eliot declared, "Mediocre writers borrow; great writers steal.")

Thanks, your encyclopedic knowledge of Jack Dempsey is a gift to us all.

[Duodenum]

Haven´t tried that and i don´t have any intentions to try it in the future.Just as well. I understand the pus busting body zits and hangover are awful. (Not to mention the amputated limbs, collapsed spines, deteriorating hip bones and shriveled genitals.)

[red cobra]

You're preaching to the choir their, buddy. Personally I rate Dempsey as a top 3 heavyweight of all time, second only to Ali and tied with Louis. I spent a day and a half arguing why I thought Dempsey would beat Marciano Head to Head on the general board. I want to say that Dempsey would pound all the current heavyweights to shit.
Archie Moore, according to a Gil Clancy interview I read once, said that Dempsey was a physically strong man, as he heard it from an old trainer acquaintence he knew. Dempsey was a hard as steel kind of guy who could capitalize in a flash on a mistake and end it all with one shot, as Jack Sharkey found out, and Gene Tunney almost found out. I think he is painfully underrated by today's brilliant boxing intelligensia, for whom boxing only began with Muhammad Ali, or the eighties. The great modern day historical revisionists of boxing.

[Duodenum]

Archie Moore, according to a Gil Clancy interview I read once, said that Dempsey was a physically strong man, as he heard it from an old trainer acquaintence he knew. Dempsey was a hard as steel kind of guy who could capitalize in a flash on a mistake and end it all with one shot, as Jack Sharkey found out, and Gene Tunney almost found out. I think he is painfully underrated by today's brilliant boxing intelligensia, for whom boxing only began with Muhammad Ali, or the eighties. The great modern day historical revisionists of boxing.Well RC, once Maxmomer finishes reading all of Dempsey's instructional literature, and evaluates it against the best computer enhanced movie clips of Jack's finest filmed performances on DVD, he'll become just like the rest of the Dempsey "illuminati" (ie: Bruce Lee), no longer willing to "bang the head against the wall" in educating others about Jack's methodology, but just shaking the head in amusement, and chuckling silently at the ignorance of the Mauler's critics.;)