If Jack Dempsey was fighting Harry Wills tomorrow...

[McGrain]

Who would you be picking to win and why?

Assume that they are both coming of really good years and each is bringing two belts to the ring. Both camps were faultless.

GZA is doing Wills ring walk music, if that helps.

I wonder what Dempsey would arrive to?:think

[McGrain]

FG, nice rabbit.

[cross_trainer]

Who would you be picking to win and why?


Calzaghe.

[McGrain]

Calzaghe.


Are you finding yourself rooting for Kessler at all?

[cross_trainer]

Are you finding yourself rooting for Kessler at all?

:lol:

I never thought Calzaghe was good for supermiddleweight boxing, to tell the truth. Completely uninterested in unification and never went after the big fights. Since he's on his way out, and Kessler's a young up-and-comer, I would prefer that Kessler win for the good of the division.

[McGrain]

I never thought Calzaghe was good for supermiddleweight boxing, to tell the truth. Completely uninterested in unification and never went after the big fights. Since he's on his way out, and Kessler's a young up-and-comer, I would prefer that Kessler win for the good of the division.

As a Brit i'm still routing for Joe.

Offline. In the place called "real".

[cross_trainer]

Offline. In the place called "real".

Never heard of it. Is that anywhere near Manchester?

[McGrain]

Never heard of it. Is that anywhere near Manchester?

It's similairly handicapped by indeffinite layout.

[cross_trainer]

It's similairly handicapped by indeffinite layout.

It doesn't sound like somewhere I'd want to visit.

[McGrain]

It doesn't sound like somewhere I'd want to visit.

You have to, there are GIRLS there.

[McGrain]

What are GIRLS?

There's a perfect - literally - example in your avatar there.

Seriously, compare your avatar to CT'S, why do women even want to be seen with men :lol:

[McGrain]

This is the 2nd time i've started a thread on Wills and it's just ended up a sick bizzare mess :lol:

[cross_trainer]

There's a perfect - literally - example in your avatar there.

Seriously, compare your avatar to CT'S, why do women even want to be seen with men :lol:

Women must have done something REALLY bad to deserve it. Like become Calzaghe fans.

[McGrain]

Well, perhaps you should stop making threads about him. Btw. where do you rank him?

It's a tough one. I have him top 20 but I don't think i've ever had him higher than 16. I have Dempsey at 11 or 12 depending how i'm feeling about Foreman.

[McGrain]

Women must have done something REALLY bad to deserve it. Like become Calzaghe fans.

Don't - we are only a hears breadth away from getting a thread on a topic like Calzaghe's ability as a lover, I don't want to stir that pot.

Imagine the analysis concerning the inferiority of sexual techniques in the 1920's?

[cross_trainer]

Don't - we are only a hears breadth away from getting a thread on a topic like Calzaghe's ability as a lover, I don't want to stir that pot.

Imagine the analysis concerning the inferiority of sexual techniques in the 1920's?

There you have it. Women consent to sleep with men--because the alternative is Joe Calzaghe.

[robert ungurean]

Dempsey destroys Wills.
Wills is just plain to slow to compete with Dempsey.

[McGrain]

Dempsey destroys Wills.
Wills is just plain to slow to compete with Dempsey.

You may be right on both counts.

However, would you agree that they are both top 20 heavyweights, all time? If that is so, how many match ups do you think can me made between the memers of your top 20 heavyweights that really wouldn't be competitive?

That's why the "happening tomorrow" angle. We both knew Tyson would lose to Lewis - but we both had butterflies at the opening bell.

You really think this match would be less competitive than that one? I too lean towards Dempsey. But I apparently give Wills a much better chance than everyone who has posted in this thread.

[Dempsey1238]

Dempsey would have destroyed Wills. Like Clubber Lang said in Rocky III: "He's tailor made for me and he's gonna get hurt." Wills was good but his style would have been easy for Dempsey.

Dempsey KO 3 Wills

Well all find and dandy, but Lang didnt say that.
He said
"He comeing to age and he's going to get hurt.".

[janitor]

Dempsey would have destroyed Wills. Like Clubber Lang said in Rocky III: "He's tailor made for me and he's gonna get hurt." Wills was good but his style would have been easy for Dempsey.

Dempsey KO 3 Wills

This is my take on it and it seems to have been Dempseys as well. He said privately that he saw Langford and Godfrey as a greater threat than Wills.

Obviously he thought he had the style to win this one.

[robert ungurean]

You may be right on both counts.

However, would you agree that they are both top 20 heavyweights, all time? If that is so, how many match ups do you think can me made between the memers of your top 20 heavyweights that really wouldn't be competitive?

That's why the "happening tomorrow" angle. We both knew Tyson would lose to Lewis - but we both had butterflies at the opening bell.

You really think this match would be less competitive than that one? I too lean towards Dempsey. But I apparently give Wills a much better chance than everyone who has posted in this thread. I never thought a whole lot of Wills. I thought the whole Dempsey ducking him BS made him a better fighter in peoples minds than he really was.
Ray Arcel for example didnt have a very high oppinion of him.

[Marciano Frazier]

There's a perfect - literally - example in your avatar there.

Seriously, compare your avatar to CT'S, why do women even want to be seen with men :lol: I sometimes wonder if women ever get up in the morning, look in the mirror, then look at the men sleeping in their beds, and think, "Gee, I really got the short end of the stick, didn't I?"

[Marciano Frazier]

By the way, Wills was a pretty big guy with a fairly straight-up stance, wasn't too especially quick on his feet and didn't have a great chin; I think he'd play into Dempsey's hands pretty nicely. Dempsey by KO 4.

[Seamus]

It's a tough one. I have him top 20 but I don't think i've ever had him higher than 16. I have Dempsey at 11 or 12 depending how i'm feeling about Foreman.


Wow, that's pretty high for a guy who routinely lost to Dempsey's sparring partner. I just don't see it.

Top 50, maybe.

[KSmith9116]

Wow, that's pretty high for a guy who routinely lost to Dempsey's sparring partner. I just don't see it.

Top 50, maybe.

Is this Bill Tate you refer to? Wills lost to him once--on a foul. He also knocked him out a few times and beat him over 12.

[KSmith9116]

I would like to know what big, skilled, world class heavyweights Dempsey defeated--or opponents similar to Harry Wills in size, skill and experience that make this such a walk over for Jack. IMO, Demspey never beat anyone of Wills ilk--just didn't. So I get confused as to where all the "Wills was made for Demspey" stuff comes from.

Harry Wills was no Luis Firpo or Jess Willard and those that think he was are mis-informed. By the time Harry became a contender, around 1919 or so, he was a big, skilled and well experienced fighter who in a very busy career faced off with what I consider a far deeper group than our pal Jack.

As for him being slow and having a weak chin, I just don't see where that is shown. Does anyone here have prime footage of Wills--or contemporary reports of him being a lumbering giant? And who was knocking him out with such frequency that his chin is now deemed suspect?

[ChrisPontius]

I would like to know what big, skilled, world class heavyweights Dempsey defeated--or opponents similar to Harry Wills in size, skill and experience that make this such a walk over for Jack. IMO, Demspey never beat anyone of Wills ilk--just didn't. So I get confused as to where all the "Wills was made for Demspey" stuff comes from.

Harry Wills was no Luis Firpo or Jess Willard and those that think he was are mis-informed. By the time Harry became a contender, around 1919 or so, he was a big, skilled and well experienced fighter who in a very busy career faced off with what I consider a far deeper group than our pal Jack.

As for him being slow and having a weak chin, I just don't see where that is shown. Does anyone here have prime footage of Wills--or contemporary reports of him being a lumbering giant? And who was knocking him out with such frequency that his chin is now deemed suspect?

Good post, i have to agree.


Wills would also have the psychological advantage because Dempsey didn't want to face him, there may well have been a reason that for it, similar to Lewis vs Bowe only without the amature fight.

Wills would be by the best fighter that Dempsey fought by a significant margin, untill Tunney. Several people have Willis in their heavyweight top20's, some even top15. How high does a Morris, Fulton or Brennan rank?

[C. M. Clay II]

I think Dempsey may have had more trouble with Wills than Willard and Firpo, but the end result would be the same.

Jack Dempsey KO 8 Harry Wills:good

[McGrain]

I would like to know what big, skilled, world class heavyweights Dempsey defeated--or opponents similar to Harry Wills in size, skill and experience that make this such a walk over for Jack. IMO, Demspey never beat anyone of Wills ilk--just didn't. So I get confused as to where all the "Wills was made for Demspey" stuff comes from.

Harry Wills was no Luis Firpo or Jess Willard and those that think he was are mis-informed. By the time Harry became a contender, around 1919 or so, he was a big, skilled and well experienced fighter who in a very busy career faced off with what I consider a far deeper group than our pal Jack.

I agree with this, mostly good stuff.

You could argue that Wills beat better fighters than Dempsey ever faced and that Dempsey lost to the only truly great fighter he took on.

[Dempsey1238]

Jack Dempsey: Society's Most Adored. And Boxing History's Biggest Fraud?
By Alex Hall


Right at the height of the prohibition era, Dempsey's violent style made his fights so exciting that for just a few short rounds, the crowd forgot the need for alcohol as other basic lusts and violent instincts took over. Dempsey was the first Mike Tyson minus the biting and outside fighting. What more could one ask for? His image outside the ring was clean and the leather on his gloves was stained with the blood of countless victims.

From a personal perspective, Dempsey and Tyson have little in common other than a taste for a 'dandy' style of clothes at times. But in the ring they might have more in common than one initially suspects. Both were savage but fast and with a good mind for defense on the attack but there was more. It is now accepted by many that Tyson was lucky to come along among a crop of weak heavyweights. Was Dempsey a truly great heavyweight or was he just a man who lifted the popularity of the sport and gave us thrills?

Dempsey is regarded as being on the same level as Ali, Louis, Marciano and Johnson or whomever else you regard as a great heavyweight? Did Dempsey really beat anyone of such importance that we should hail him as a boxing legend? The definition of an all-time great is very flimsy indeed. Basically, you have to dominate your particular era no matter how weak it may be. By that measure we would regard Tyson as an all-time great too. But we don't do we? Why not, you may ask. In one word: Holyfield. Tyson fought on with the wrong people backing him and got caught out by a seasoned old pro. But wait, was not the same scenario acted out 70 years earlier with Gene Tunney and Jack Dempsey? Indeed it was.

If one looks closely one will see that it was not just Dempsey and Tyson who were extremely similar but their chief adversaries were extremely tough, skilled boxers from the division below heavyweight who's defining fight came against a menacing man despite being small for a heavyweight who happened to be leaving their best years with the second of the two encounters being a huge attraction and one of the biggest controversies in boxing history. Was this coincidence or has Dempsey just been grossly overrated? Come to think of it, a better case can be made for Tyson's greatness than for Dempsey's. But Dempsey has been regarded as a great heavyweight and Tunney is dismissed by all but a select few hard-core experts, Tyson on the other hand is dismissed by all but a select few while Holyfield is regarded as an all-time great by all but a select few. My personal views on Tyson on Holyfield will not be discussed here nor will the worth of Gene Tunney but the general opinion of Jack Dempsey will be heavily questioned and criticized below.

The Hurly, Burly, Early Years Of The 'Manassa Mauler'

Here we see one of the few areas of Dempsey's boxing career that did not mirror Mike Tyson's. Dempsey's rise to the title included several four round defeats to the Buster Mathis of the day - Willie Meehan. The decision of those fights has been criticized but it is generally accepted that Dempsey lost at least one most likely two of their encounters. The length of the bouts - four rounds (note: in California four rounds was the maximum number of rounds allowed.) - has been used as a sort of scape-goat. If we were talking about Julio Cesar Chavez or some other notorious slow starter that argument might be prudent, but with a savage killer like Dempsey it must be said that the argument might well have been quickly established with little care or thought as to the true facts of the case. People will criticize my argument by saying that despite Meehan's blubber, he was a good mover, yet these same people worship Dempsey for his speed. That in a way is like saying that Ali can be forgiven for almost getting clocked by Henry Cooper because 'Our 'Enry' was a hard hitter and then say Ali had the greatest chin of all-time. So which is it? You cannot blame the losses on Meehan's speed and then praise Dempsey's for his. The best argument most can come up with to counter that is to question the validity of the decisions recorded. This argument does hold water as fixing the fights in order to win big by betting on Meehan would make sense (although that is mostly just a theory that happens to fit the facts). However, if Dempsey knew he was likely to get jobbed no matter what then would it not be sensible to adopt a new fight plan that would enable him to flatten the 'Phat Boy'? Of course it would, yet Dempsey did no such thing which strongly suggests a total lack of ability to adapt to a new style when his usual one proves ineffective. He had the tools to knock out Meehan. Pernell Whitaker suffered horrendous decisions but the only way he could beat most fighters was to go the distance with them, this is not so of Dempsey.

Fred Fulton is a name known to many common boxing enthusiasts. His name eludes most though in all but one situation: His first round knockout defeat at the hands of Jack Dempsey. His name rarely crops up again and when it does it is usually to mention his amazing size (note: Fred Fulton stood 6'4). Is Joe Louis revered for his demolition of Abe Simon or looked up to for defeating Primo Carnera? Certainly not, so why must we credit Dempsey for knocking out Fred Fulton even if it took a mere 23 seconds. Here I will relieve that nagging bug at the back of your mind that implores you to find out where else you have heard of Fred Fulton: He holds two victories over Sam Langford. Langford is regarded as perhaps the greatest fighter ever to walk the planet. Langford had everything a heavyweight could possibly want - well, almost everything! It is regarded as a miracle that a former lightweight like Langford could compete so successfully with boxing's biggest men. Jack Johnson was credited for beating Langford. But Johnson also beat every other heavyweight of the day, beat a younger version of Langford, was smaller than Fulton and was not stopped in one round by Jack Dempsey. There you see it. Fulton's credentials rest on beating this small man who was past his prime. Therefore Dempsey's victory over Fulton would not equal Evander Holyfield knocking out Lennox Lewis or Michael Grant today, but rather a considerably smaller version of one of the Klitschko brothers or a smaller Andrew Golota or maybe even Mount Whitaker.

[Dempsey1238]

Note: Jack Dempsey suffered a one-round defeat to former title challenger Jim Flynn but I did not use that argument as it was almost certainly a fixed fight.

Tuesday, Bloody Tuesday: The Day Jack Dempsey Became Champion Of The World

It was a terribly hot day when the crowds packed the stadium to see Jess Willard defend his title for the first time in three years. The champion was physically imposing but woefully lacking in talent. To this day he does not stand out as the best 'Great White Hope' of his day but only as the most resilient and tough - the only one who could out-last the hated, black champion Jack Johnson in a 45 round fight. Willard won the title in 1915, and defended on one measly occasion. Willard's defense of the world crown against Frank Moran was the equivalent of waiting until you are dealt a royal flush before betting in poker as Moran had no chance of knocking out big Jess and if the fight went the distance (which it did) it would be declared a no-decision. Willard was a nice enough man, but not a great fighter by any standards, had not fought in three years and was 39 years old. Willard was a huge man, and so at first glance, scoring seven knockdowns in one round against him seems incredible until one looks over the rules of the day. In those days, men stood over their fallen opponent and could hit them the instant they rose from the canvass, even if they still lay in a vulnerable position. Such was the tactic Jack Dempsey used against the rusty and aging colossus. In figurative terms, he woke the sleeping giant and proceeded to kick him in the balls before he even got up. This would be like Holyfield knocking out Bowe in 2000 if Bowe had never had any skills in the first place. One must also watch the film (there are many available, I have three copies from various sources myself) to see Willard carry his left hand by his waist and throw crude counters to keep off the challenger. This clearly lessens the achievement of knocking out Jess Willard.

A Dandy And A Destroyer: Jack Dempsey as the Champion in the Roaring Twenties

Dempsey's first defense of the title must come as one of boxing biggest disgraces of the times. The gross mismatch against Billy Miske was a disgusting exhibition that stands out as a blight on the credibility of the sport (ah for the days when boxing had credibility) in the 1920s. Miske was suffering from Bright's Disease and although not totally shot, was certainly no longer a threat due to high-activity and the disease that ravaged his kidneys.

One thousand dollars! One thousand dollars! It just doesn't have much of a ring to it anymore. At least not since 2 July 1921. That was the day that Jack Dempsey and Tex Rickard carried boxing through to a new era. An era in which anything with less than five zeroes simply wasn't enough. Almost exactly two years after Dempsey's title winning victory over Jess Willard in 1919, Dempsey defended for the third time (he had scored a come-from-behind KO of Billy Brennan). Rising in weight, 175 pound king Georges Carpentier challenged Dempsey. Carpentier was a talented boxer, and Dempsey was not huge for a heavyweight, but the fact that Georges still scaled almost three pounds under the light-heavyweight limit for this fight brings to mind the old phrase ''A good big guy always beat a good little guy''. This was very true here. The bigger and stronger champion simply overwhelmed the smaller champion. Basically, it was a case of the 'Manassa Mauler' vs. the 'Manassa Smaller' as Dempsey outweighed Carpentier by between 15 and 20 pounds (I have been unable to find a reliable source that gives Dempsey's weight, but Carpentier was 172½ lbs). All those who have seen the fight must surely see Carpentier's left hand at his side (just like Willard) as he tried to keep off the champion with several wild punches a couple of which appeared to stun the heavyweight champion in the first round. Still, the low left hand and big weight advantage for the champion were too much for Carpentier. His face was badly marked by the end of the first and he was floored twice in the fourth, the last time for the count. Beating a smaller man who carries his hands by his sides (at time Carpentier's right hand would join his left at his waist) while still getting stunned is hardly impressive. Why was this ignored? Simple, read any report of the fight and you will hear little of the action itself, only of the fact that the fight was boxing's first million-dollar gate.

Dempsey next defended his title on 4 July 1923 (exactly four years after he won the title from Jess Willard) against Tommy Gibbons. Again, fight reports record only the disaster that was Jack Dempsey-Tommy Gibbons (the fight nearly bankrupted the town of Shelby Montana where the fight was staged). Gibbons was a very fast and talented boxer but had competed in the professional ranks for the last 12 years and was 34 by fight time. Gibbons clinched his way through most of the fight and neglected his jab in many rounds. Dempsey supporters will try to try to counter me by saying that Gibbons was very fast, but again, this is coming from those who worship Dempsey for his speed. Gibbons was also giving away 15 pounds in weight. So, it all adds up to Dempsey winning a 15 round decision over a much smaller man who made him look dreadful despite being 34 years old.

His last three fights having come against smaller men, the champion signed to fight Luis Angel Firpo. Nick-named the 'Wild Bull of the Pampas', Firpo weighed over 220 lbs and was strong. However, one must not get the impression that Firpo was Jimmy Wilde but twice his size. Every time I watch the fight I must grimace in displeasure. I have always loved watching the master boxers of the ring (I regularly found Pernell Whitaker's fights very enjoyable), and watching the sickeningly crude Firpo is just one of those things that I am compelled to endure. Carrying his left hand by his side (sound familiar?), Firpo clubbed away with right hands that would make Butterbean look like Willie Pep. Dempsey simply swarmed from the start and took advantage of the rules of the time by hitting his opponent the moment he rose from the canvass (something else that sounds familiar). But still, Firpo gave the champion a licking with one punch, then punched him out of the ring. Dempsey was helped up again by the ringside reporters and hung on for dear life until the bell saved him from a further beating. Dempsey recovered quickly and knocked out Firpo in the second round.

The fight with Firpo was the last successful defense of his world crown. In total it added up to beating a badly sick man, two smaller men one of whom was past his prime, a come-from-behind KO of Billy Brennan (Not mentioned above) and the defeat of one of history's crudest fighters. In these five defenses of the title, Dempsey was hurt in two of them, made to look very unskilled in two others and look impressive in one (against Billy Miske). Dempsey's 'brutal and dominant' title reign is merely a collection of victories over tainted opposition and the champion still failed to impress.


Jack's Run Ended By A Runner: Gene Tunney Wrests The Title From Dempsey

An exciting if unimpressive title reign on 23 September 1926. Making his first defense in over three years, Dempsey was easily *********. One can blame it on age, but Tunney had little trouble taking the crown as his use of the jab caught the champion coming in, and enabled the former American Light-Heavyweight Champion to soar ahead on points. Of course, Dempsey was not as young anymore, but the weight advantage (not the first time he had fought a smaller man) should have helped to offset that a little. It did not. Tunney himself, was not wonderfully young either, and would have just two more fights before retiring and had had five grueling wars with Harry Greb.

[Dempsey1238]

The Battle Of The Long Count: Boxing History's Most Groundless Controversy

It has long been argued that Jack Dempsey beat Gene Tunney on 22 September 1927 (almost exactly one year after the first fight). This argument is in a word: Rubbish! Dempsey himself claimed that he did not agree with the notion that his foul tactics had cost him victory. Tunney does appear dazed at first but can clearly be seen to be ready for action before ten seconds (official or not) had elapsed. This was almost exactly like Tyson's knockdown of James 'Buster' Douglas. But Jack Kearns (Dempsey's manager) made no attempt to reverse the decision as he was no longer working with 'Manassa Jack'. So that leaves us with what? Nine rounds of beating in which Dempsey got caught by jabs and right hands coming in and was even knocked down and badly hurt in the eighth round. You can say that Dempsey's reflexes were shot, but his chin certainly was not, and this former light heavyweight beat him up.

The Aftermath

Dempsey did little in the ring after the second Tunney fight. It was his last fight of note. And so his credentials in the early days were failing to get the better of Willie Meehan, beating Fred Fulton who's only claim to fame was beating the tiny marvel Sam Langford. His credentials in the championship days were looking bad against three skilled boxers, beating up on two crude giants, knocking over a sick opponent and a partridge in a pear tree. So there you have it. His legacy was his huge service to the popularity of the sport, but that is nothing to create a legend out of. He took advantage of the lack of neutral corner rules, beat either small men who carried their hands at their sides, or big men with skills that would embarrass Mia St. John. Smaller men and bigger men stunned him and his 'brilliant defense' was just ceasing his forward momentum when fighters threw shots back at him. A fellow boxing enthusiast that I know claimed that Dempsey was regarded as the definite pound-for-pound greatest fighter ever by all those who saw him. And that is just it. We thought the same of Tyson until a certain cruiserweight made us look twice. People saw him and got caught up in the atmosphere of it all, and ignored the major flaws that Dempsey possessed. He fails to make my all-time heavyweight top ten, as all those that did held their hands just a little above the waist. And if light-heavyweights could stun him, think what Louis, Johnson, Marcianno, Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Fitzsimmons and any other hard hitting heavyweight would have done.

[Bummy Davis]

Dempsey was the 1st explosive Heavyweight Champ with speed and killer instinct, I think he would KO Wills but not without some trouble, once he got inside, Harry would be in trouble