Sonny Liston vs. Larry Holmes

[Luigi1985]

Who wins and why?

[zivic1941]

Very hard fight to pick. Holmes is on record saying Liston would be a super hard fight for him.

[McGrain]

Holmes is on record saying Liston would be a super hard fight for him.

Is he? That's interesting, got a source or any more info on that?

[zivic1941]

Yes. I had a long conversation about this match-up with Frank Lotierzo in 2006. Carlo Rotella, a superb author, knows Holmes well, and noted this to Frank in a conversation.

[robert ungurean]

I like Holmes on points.
Bigger man
Better jab.
Better Boxer
Bigger heart.
Smarter fighter

[JohnThomas1]

Is he? That's interesting, got a source or any more info on that?

Zivac is a well of great information such as this, really been around and 100% authentic. Pity he doesn't post more often.

[McGrain]

Zivac is a well of great information such as this, really been around and 100% authentic. Pity he doesn't post more often.

Amen.

In that case, Liston KO2, :yep

[brooklyn1550]

Larry Holmes by decision

[zivic1941]

I wouldn't go with an early KO. It's a real tough fight, though. Holmes had a lot in his arsenal to give Liston problems. The key is the jab. In 2005, I interviewed Billy Joiner. Billy started training fighters when he was a teenager in the 1950s with none other than (the great) Doc Broadus. Billy lost to Ali in the amateurs by 1 point. Very slick fighter....and smart.

Billy didn't have a good pro career. Too many short notice fights....all the time. But...Billy is the only guy to go the distance with Liston in Liston's post-Ali career. He lost the first on a TKO. Billy told me training was real bad for that fight. In the second fight, Billy went the distance. Billy---who is now about 70---is totally unmarked and was completely and totally lucid when I interviewed him. He winced when we talked about Liston. He said not only was he powerful, he was a smart fighter, too. He said the Liston jab was like another guy's right hand.

When Billy was closing his career, he fought Holmes on short notice in Puerto Rico. He lost to him in a few rounds. Here, however, is what he said when I asked him to compare the Liston jab to Holmes' jab (keep in mind that Larry was pretty young when he fought Billy).

Billy Joiner: Well, I won the National Golden Gloves in 1962. I started my pro career in 1963. For the first match with Liston I wasn’t at home training like I was supposed to. I was training, but I went to New York to train. The accommodations, my meals, and everything weren’t right. So that had some bearing on the fight. I had sparred with Liston before I fought him, though. I knew what I had to do in order to survive (We both smile and laugh loudly). Liston was a good fighter. He was a great fighter, and a very strong fighter. I came in at about 195 pounds. Liston was something that it was survival for me back then, and the chance to make a little money. In the second fight, I was home training. I was more relaxed. My Dad was there, and that made a big difference.

Question: You fought Larry Holmes in 1975 when he was starting to come up the ranks (Billy was 37 at the time of that fight). Who had the better jab: Liston or Holmes?

Billy Joiner: Oh, no doubt. Liston. If I had two weeks to train for Holmes, I would’ve beaten him. I hadn’t been in the gym in a year. I got a call right before Christmas, and was asked if I wanted to go to Puerto Rico. I had four kids, and I didn’t know anything about Holmes. So I went. I jumped on him right from the beginning. I wasn’t in condition. But no, there really wasn’t a comparison between him at that time and Liston at the time I fought him. Liston was much stronger than Holmes. I could walk right through Holmes, but I got tired. Had I been in condition, it wouldn’t have been a contest for that particular fight.

Question: Holmes kind of threw a rising up jab (I motion from the waist upward), whereas Liston threw a straight, telephone pole-like jab.

Billy Joiner: Right.

Question: How did you defend differently against the different types of jabs?

Billy Joiner: Holmes hadn’t really seasoned yet at that time in his career. So, I would just walk right through him. Liston was different. His jab was like getting hit with another man’s right hand. My head was red.

Question: Liston had an 84” reach. Was the reach that big of a factor with him?

Billy Joiner: It’s a difference if you know what you’re doing. He knew what he was doing, so I couldn’t really get close to him like I wanted to.

Question: Of all of the guys you fought in your career—Zora Folley, Holmes, Blue Lewis, Liston, etc.--- who was the best guy you faced?

Billy Joiner: It was Liston. Liston was the toughest guy.

[McGrain]

Thanks man.

[Amsterdam]

Sonny Liston TKO 5 Larry Holmes. He'd drop him and finish him, he can hang with him well enough in terms of jabbing and boxing also.

Liston was a better all around fighter, just has a far lesser resume.

[Grebfan9]

Liston would jab with Holmes and take away Larry's best weapon.

Liston was not as quick as Larry, but he still was quick enough to
land on Holmes.

A prime Sonny would start to hurt Larry and back him up.

I remember the Mike Weaver fight, where Weaver jabbed back
and caused Holmes a load of trouble in that fight. Sonny's jab
was much better than Weavers.

Liston KO 7 Holmes

[Street Lethal]

Damn hard fight to pick. But based on how overwhelmed Liston was by Ali I lean towards Holmes. Of course Holmes wasn't Ali. But Holmes approximated Ali's better offensive assets.

[robert ungurean]

No way in hell was Listons Jab better than Holmes.
Liston may have had more power in his jab. But Larrys had more snap.more speed, controlled the fight better with it,used it as a defensive weapon to his advantage better and was more accurate with it.
Holmes is the better all around fighter period.
You cant question Holmes heart you can Listons.

[mightyd40]

listons one of my favs all time but i think this could be one of his toughest match ups.......i think holmes would win a decision but wouldnt be surprised to see sonny pull off a ko sometime mid fight or so.

[buzzsaw]

Holmes vs Shavers I and II makes me lean towards "The Easton Assassin."

[Robbi]

Holmes has a better jab, and much better ring generalship. While Liston had a heavy jab, he wasn't quite classed as a brilliant boxer throughout his career. It was mainly used to get himself into range for the heavy artillery. Holmes' jab was a point scorer, and he could control opponents with the jab alone. Liston's power would be the biggest concern for Holmes.


Holmes TKO10

[Duodenum]

As Joiner correctly pointed out, he boxed Holmes before Larry really cultivated his jab. It was not yet the weapon he decked Ocasio with.
It was certainly faster than Liston's, and Ali demonstrated what happened when Liston faced a faster long jab than his own. Larry was a pure boxer, and Liston was a physically durable customer, so Holmes would take the 15 round UD here. It comes down to hitting and not getting hit, and with Larry's speed and mobility, those advantages are all his.

That Holmes had the bigger heart is something few dispute. He is also far more intelligent than most HW champions, and wouldn't have indulged in the foolish mistakes Henry Clark did in 1968. (I realize that wasn't the Sonny of old, but Clark did leave himself available to be hit, yet was on his feet at the end.) If Liston had been facing a peak Holmes instead of Machen, Larry would have won that decision comfortably.

[C. M. Clay II]

Liston's jab I think is a bit better. It was harder and it had more of an effect on his opponents. Holmes was suceptible to the right, and Liston had a good right hand as well as the left. In his prime, Liston wasn't really suceptible to any particular punch as he had pretty solid defense and could slip punches very well with his head and shoulders. I think this fight could go the distance, with Holmes being the aggressor. Larry's greater handspeed would mean he would maybe land more punches, but Liston's inside work is superior to Holmes, and if Liston ever got inside it would spell trouble for Larry as he was not a good inside fighter. I expect it to be a good fight, but when it's over I expect Liston's hand to be raised.

Sonny Liston UD 15 Larry Holmes (9-6):good

[zivic1941]

It's a difficult fight. If you match them prime-for-prime, we're talking about Holmes between 1978-1982. I saw Holmes fight in person several times, and he was a very, very special fighter.

With Liston, in terms of his prime, we're talking several years before his fight with Joiner. The Joiner fights were in 1968 and 1969. Liston probably peaked in the late 1950s up until the early 1960s. If Liston was able to counter the Holmes jab, it would be very hard for Holmes to win that fight. Liston was a monster puncher, and his own jab would figure into the fray.

Toss up for me.

[Street Lethal]

The jabs were different, so it's hard to say which was better. Liston's was more powerful, but Homes sharper.

[Jear]

I like Sonny in this one.

Not only was his jab powerful and his reach long but he also threw his jab long by rolling his shoulder as it was nearly at full extension.
The big thing in this fight for me is that I dont think Holmes had the head movement of Ali, he may technically have better defence but Ali kept Liston off rhythm by making him miss and timing him as he fell in from rediculous angles. Holmes is more orthodox and even if Sonny doesnt land clean he still hits Larry on the arms and gloves and can still keep balanced and throw the combinations he was unable to against Ali. I just cant see Larry making him miss 5 or 6 shots in a row by rolling his head.

[Holmes' Jab]

Holmes, by close UD. This one has the makings of a classic: 9-6 in rounds, I reckon. :good

[ChrisPontius]

As Joiner correctly pointed out, he boxed Holmes before Larry really cultivated his jab. It was not yet the weapon he decked Ocasio with.
It was certainly faster than Liston's, and Ali demonstrated what happened when Liston faced a faster long jab than his own. Larry was a pure boxer, and Liston was a physically durable customer, so Holmes would take the 15 round UD here. It comes down to hitting and not getting hit, and with Larry's speed and mobility, those advantages are all his.

That Holmes had the bigger heart is something few dispute. He is also far more intelligent than most HW champions, and wouldn't have indulged in the foolish mistakes Henry Clark did in 1968. (I realize that wasn't the Sonny of old, but Clark did leave himself available to be hit, yet was on his feet at the end.) If Liston had been facing a peak Holmes instead of Machen, Larry would have won that decision comfortably.

Good points.

Liston's jab is heavier than Holmes, much heavier.

But you have to realise that that is a very small factor in the battle of jabs.
What is are more important factors?
Speed, by far. Reach, technique and consistency also come into play. Liston had a 84' inch wingspan but that was mostly due to wide shoulders. Williams, at 6'3 79" looked to have a longer reach, which incidentally is about the same in measurements as Holmes'. Holmes is more consistent with the jab and he is much faster with it.

Ali completly neutralised Liston's powerful jab with speed. While Holmes is a tad slower, he still outspeeds Liston by a significant margin. I think that will play an important role during the entire fight. I think Larry will fight safe and box to a comfortable decision. How will Liston deal with the jabs and right hands? He looked awefully swollen and cut after a mere 6 rounds with a light hitting and running Ali. Holmes did not have that weakness nor did he ever quit as blatantly as Liston.

[Mendoza]

Holmes by UD.

Liston´s jab was nearly as good as Holmes´ but Holmes´ was much faster and so he would get it off first. I expect Holmes to imitate Ali and use his feet to stay away from Liston - Holmes wasn´t as fast with his feet as Ali but faster than Liston. I expect Liston to still catch Holmes more often than he did Ali but in the end Holmes would prevail with a clear UD, something like 9-6.


This is how I see it. Holmes via decision. He was quicker, and smart enough to know where and when to engage with Liston. I’ll mention two X factors that swing in Holmes' favor in this fantasy fight.

Liston had issues with cuts. Holmes had a great jab and a way of marking up his man.

Holmes would not be intimidated as much as Liston's other opponents. Intimidation was a major weapon of Liston's.

[CzarKyle]

Imagine both of these men did their homework before entering the ring. Liston would have put up one hell of a fight in the earlier rounds. And if those early rounds weren't too successful for Liston you would see Holmes start to take over the fight and win by decision. This fight is a pick'em folks. There is no distinct winner, but a very interesting fantasy prospect to mull over here.

[DocDevil]

Both fighters are tough and have their advantages,i think Liston had the better corner, and in his prime had a Spartan like training regimen.Sonny takes it.

[Duodenum]

Both fighters are tough and have their advantages,i think Liston had the better corner, and in his prime had a Spartan like training regimen.Sonny takes it.Liston had a better corner than Eddie Futch and Ray Arcel?

Where training regimens are concerned, Holmes sometimes blew hot and cold, but he actually overtrained for Witherspoon, in his desire to forget he was primarily a boxer, and try to take Awful Timmy out.

Larry went 15 rounds with Norton, Berbick and Cobb, finishing strongly in all three. Sonny never went beyond 12 rounds, although he was fine at the end against Machen. Still, his performance against Machen was not quite up to the standard of Holmes' 12 round shutout of Shavers.

[CzarKyle]

Liston had a better corner than Eddie Futch and Ray Arcel?

Where training regimens are concerned, Holmes sometimes blew hot and cold, but he actually overtrained for Witherspoon, in his desire to forget he was primarily a boxer, and try to take Awful Timmy out.

Larry went 15 rounds with Norton, Berbick and Cobb, finishing strongly in all three. Sonny never went beyond 12 rounds, although he was fine at the end against Machen. Still, his performance against Machen was not quite up to the standard of Holmes' 12 round shutout of Shavers.

This is exactly why I think Holmes could win the fight pending that he is able to survive the opening rounds of Liston's onslaught. Holmes could take him into the later rounds and dance circles around Sonny. However, I'm still firm in what I say. This fight could go either way. Holmes has been dropped before, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Holmes lose in the beginning as much as I believe he could also win that fight by decision.

[Duodenum]

This is exactly why I think Holmes could win the fight pending that he is able to survive the opening rounds of Liston's onslaught. Holmes could take him into the later rounds and dance circles around Sonny. However, I'm still firm in what I say. This fight could go either way. Holmes has been dropped before, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Holmes lose in the beginning as much as I believe he could also win that fight by decision.Yes, Holmes was dropped before, but in all instances, it was by somebody with superior handspeed to Liston. (Shavers had long arms, and badly underrated handspeed. Still the knockdown rounds were the only rounds Snipes and Shavers won against Larry in the 32 combined completed rounds they boxed against him.) Like Cooney, Sonny didn't have the speed to reach Holmes enough to take him out

[CzarKyle]

Yes, Holmes was dropped before, but in all instances, it was by somebody with superior handspeed to Liston. (Shavers had long arms, and badly underrated handspeed. Still the knockdown rounds were the only rounds Snipes and Shavers won against Larry in the 32 combined completed rounds they boxed against him.) Like Cooney, Sonny didn't have the speed to reach Holmes enough to take him out

But don't you think Liston would actually be smart enough to work past his speed disadvantage and still land some possible KD bombs? Or would that turn into frustration like what happened against Ali?

[Duodenum]

But don't you think Liston would actually be smart enough to work past his speed disadvantage and still land some possible KD bombs? Or would that turn into frustration like what happened against Ali?I don't think so. As smart as Sonny was, I think Larry was smarter still. Unlike Frazier, Dempsey and Marciano, Liston was prone to frustration. Athough Sonny was dominant against Machen, he also seemed lost against an opponent who wasn't intimidated by him. (And Eddie got rough and nasty with Sonny at points in their 12 rounder, spinning him twice in one late clinch.)

I understand the reasons behind the Mallard nickname, but Larry also took on Roy Williams with one good hand and won (although candidly admitting that he didn't want to face Tiger anymore than the next chap). Holmes could be as rough and nasty as Liston. (Especially with his thumb. I wouldn't even want to spar with Larry unless thumbless gloves were used, no matter how old he got.)

Liston's jab could make him far more competitive against Holmes than Shavers, but he also did not cut the ring off as well as Foreman. While Liston had an excellent right, the hook was his real power shot, not particularly helpful against Holmes.

Concerning Liston's power, I think it's somewhat overrated. He was not somebody who could flatten an opponent of Larry's caliber with a single punch, even if he could reach him. For Sonny to win, he would most likely have to go the distance. Against a smart, well skilled, fast and mobile opposition, this could prove troublesome. (Henry Clark was fast, tall, and skilled, but also a bit green, and not particularly smart. Still, he was on his feet at the end, against a still competent veteran.)

[C. M. Clay II]

Good points.

Liston's jab is heavier than Holmes, much heavier.

But you have to realise that that is a very small factor in the battle of jabs.
What is are more important factors?
Speed, by far. Reach, technique and consistency also come into play. Liston had a 84' inch wingspan but that was mostly due to wide shoulders. Williams, at 6'3 79" looked to have a longer reach, which incidentally is about the same in measurements as Holmes'. Holmes is more consistent with the jab and he is much faster with it.

Ali completly neutralised Liston's powerful jab with speed. While Holmes is a tad slower, he still outspeeds Liston by a significant margin. I think that will play an important role during the entire fight. I think Larry will fight safe and box to a comfortable decision. How will Liston deal with the jabs and right hands? He looked awefully swollen and cut after a mere 6 rounds with a light hitting and running Ali. Holmes did not have that weakness nor did he ever quit as blatantly as Liston.

You must remember that the Liston of the Clay fights was old and out of shape, totally different than the Liston Holmes would be facing. Plus Liston later attested to Clay's punching power by saying, "They say this kid can't punch? He can punch like hell!" Clay shots may have looked soft because of the speed in which he threw them, but they were not. They had a deceptively damaging quality to them.:good

[C. M. Clay II]

Yes, Holmes was dropped before, but in all instances, it was by somebody with superior handspeed to Liston. (Shavers had long arms, and badly underrated handspeed. Still the knockdown rounds were the only rounds Snipes and Shavers won against Larry in the 32 combined completed rounds they boxed against him.) Like Cooney, Sonny didn't have the speed to reach Holmes enough to take him out

Shavers handspeed was inferior to Listons. If Earnie could reach holmes, then so could Liston.

In his prime, Sonny Liston had pretty good handspeed and cut off the ring well. Please don't compare him to Gerry Cooney.:lol:

[ChrisPontius]

You must remember that the Liston of the Clay fights was old and out of shape, totally different than the Liston Holmes would be facing. Plus Liston later attested to Clay's punching power by saying, "They say this kid can't punch? He can punch like hell!" Clay shots may have looked soft because of the speed in which he threw them, but they were not. They had a deceptively damaging quality to them.:good

Well, it's true that Liston was somewhat undertrained and aging.

But let's not exaggerate. Only one year earlier he still looked immortal in destroying Patterson for the second time. He was only 3 pounds heavier than then.
And his speed has always been somewhat unimpressive to me. No doubt Ali has the punch to keep you honest, but so does Holmes. Holmes is no Clay but he's fast as hell too.

[C. M. Clay II]

Well, it's true that Liston was somewhat undertrained and aging.

But let's not exaggerate. Only one year earlier he still looked immortal in destroying Patterson for the second time. He was only 3 pounds heavier than then.
And his speed has always been somewhat unimpressive to me. No doubt Ali has the punch to keep you honest, but so does Holmes. Holmes is no Clay but he's fast as hell too.

Liston was already past it in the Patterson fights. that was just a case of a bad-style matchup. Liston's prime was between 1957-60. Liston was 35 against Clay. That's over the hill.

[C. M. Clay II]

Holmes KO 0 Liston, Holmes was about 1 round faster than ali.

Bill, what were you banned for?

[Muchmoore]

Bill, what were you banned for?

:lol:

[DocDevil]

Liston had a better corner than Eddie Futch and Ray Arcel?

Where training regimens are concerned, Holmes sometimes blew hot and cold, but he actually overtrained for Witherspoon, in his desire to forget he was primarily a boxer, and try to take Awful Timmy out.

Larry went 15 rounds with Norton, Berbick and Cobb, finishing strongly in all three. Sonny never went beyond 12 rounds, although he was fine at the end against Machen. Still, his performance against Machen was not quite up to the standard of Holmes' 12 round shutout of Shavers.

Yeah,I think Willie Reddish could Slam that medicine ball harder into Liston than Arcel could into Holmes.Sonny could look very awesome in his workouts.

[DocDevil]

Holmes KO 0 Liston, Holmes was about 1 round faster than ali.


I'll take a pound of whatever it is you are smoking.

[box03]

Holmes wins this one my opinion, I see Holmes frustrating Liston with his stellar jab and great footwork all night and eventually closing the show around the 8 round with a ko victory. All in all Liston takes a beating from a better boxer.

[Luigi1985]

This thread once again shows how overrated Liston is. His only advantages would be, that his jab was power-wise harder and his punching power, but that was it. Holmes had the better stamina, better, faster jab with more precision, he had more heart, more experience in fights for the world-title and better skills. IMO Liston would make it close in the first 3 rounds, but than Larry shows slowly who´s the man between them two, he would outjab and outbox Liston to an comfortable UD...


Holmes UD 15 Liston


(10-5)

[ChrisPontius]

Liston was already past it in the Patterson fights. that was just a case of a bad-style matchup. Liston's prime was between 1957-60. Liston was 35 against Clay. That's over the hill.

What shows of decline did you see in either Patterson fight? Could you point it out exactly?

By the way, during '57-'60 he didn't beat a single ranked contender so maybe he looked better because during the first half he was in prison and the second half he was beating up journeymen and washed up contenders.

[C. M. Clay II]

What shows of decline did you see in either Patterson fight? Could you point it out exactly?

By the way, during '57-'60 he didn't beat a single ranked contender so maybe he looked better because during the first half he was in prison and the second half he was beating up journeymen and washed up contenders.

His handspeed had diminished by the Patterson fight. Also Eddie Machen was ranked #2 when he fought Liston in 1960. I aos think Folley was ranked as well.:good

[ChrisPontius]

Oh, you are right. I was mistaken by '57-'59.

[mcvey]

What shows of decline did you see in either Patterson fight? Could you point it out exactly?

By the way, during '57-'60 he didn't beat a single ranked contender so maybe he looked better because during the first half he was in prison and the second half he was beating up journeymen and washed up contenders.
Liston wasnt ranked in the top ten till 1958,he came in at no 9,that year he beat Billy Hunter by ko in2,Hunter wasnt rated ,but would be no 6 the next year,Liston also kod Wayne Bethea in 1 that year ,he wasnt rated ,but had been no8 the previous year.In 59 Liston kod Mike Dejohn in 6,he was rated no 8, Nino Valdes was kod in 3 he had been no 2 the previous year and no 6 the year before that,listons other wins were over Cleveland Williams ko3 and Willie Besmanoff ko 7.In 1960 as the number 1 contender ,Liston again kod Williams in 2, Roy Harris in 1, Harris was unrated ,but had been no7 the year previous.Liston also decisioned Eddie Machen who was rated no3,kod Zora Folley in 3 ,he was rated no4,Dejohn whom Liston had kod in 6 the year previously was rated no6 in 1960.I dont know where you are going with your post ,but if ever a contender deserved a shot at the title it was LIston,he had cleared house ,when I say fighters are not rated ,I mean not in the top 10 at that time,most of them never left the top 20 rankings. Sonny may have been past his best,but what was left of it was certainly too much for the other contenders,he wasnt beating washed up fighters and journeymen ,he was koing rated fighters and doing it with ease.

[C. M. Clay II]

Liston wasnt ranked in the top ten till 1958,he came in at no 9,that year he beat Billy Hunter by ko in2,Hunter wasnt rated ,but would be no 6 the next year,Liston also kod Wayne Bethea in 1 that year ,he wasnt rated ,but had been no8 the previous year.In 59 Liston kod Mike Dejohn in 6,he was rated no 8, Nino Valdes was kod in 3 he had been no 2 the previous year and no 6 the year before that,listons other wins were over Cleveland Williams ko3 and Willie Besmanoff ko 7.In 1960 as the number 1 contender ,Liston again kod Williams in 2, Roy Harris in 1, Harris was unrated ,but had been no7 the year previous.Liston also decisioned Eddie Machen who was rated no3,kod Zora Folley in 3 ,he was rated no4,Dejohn whom Liston had kod in 6 the year previously was rated no6 in 1960.I dont know where you are going with your post ,but if ever a contender deserved a shot at the title it was LIston,he had cleared house ,when I say fighters are not rated ,I mean not in the top 10 at that time,most of them never left the top 20 rankings. Sonny may have been past his best,but what was left of it was certainly too much for the other contenders,he wasnt beating washed up fighters and journeymen ,he was koing rated fighters and doing it with ease.

:good

[ChrisPontius]

Where did i say he didn't deserve his title shot?

Like i said before, i mixed up the dates up to '59 instead of '60. DeJohn was the only contender he beat up to that point. There have been many people getting title shots based on beating up journeyman and washed up contenders, but up to that point i don't think he had THAT much ground for a titleshot. That came end '59 / early 60's when he started laying the ranked contenders out.

Patterson however was having a rightful trilogy with Johansson untill march '61. He took an easy defense after that and faced Liston right afterwards. Big deal. Liston was legitly avoided for little over a year. The way Bowe avoided Lewis is far, far worse. Same for Dempsey ducking Wills.

And then some people are claiming that he was totally past it and very very old, only a year after he twice destroyed the reigning champion inside of one round. :lol:

I have a poster of Clay/Liston and it lists Liston's age at 29. Of course, when he lost, his fans needed an excuse to live with the reality that he got the shit kicked out of him and made to quit by an at that time considered fragile, weak chinned loudmouth, and they started saying he was 35 or older!

[C. M. Clay II]

Where did i say he didn't deserve his title shot?

Like i said before, i mixed up the dates up to '59 instead of '60. DeJohn was the only contender he beat up to that point. There have been many people getting title shots based on beating up journeyman and washed up contenders, but up to that point i don't think he had THAT much ground for a titleshot. That came end '59 / early 60's when he started laying the ranked contenders out.

Patterson however was having a rightful trilogy with Johansson untill march '61. He took an easy defense after that and faced Liston right afterwards. Big deal. Liston was legitly avoided for little over a year. The way Bowe avoided Lewis is far, far worse. Same for Dempsey ducking Wills.

And then some people are claiming that he was totally past it and very very old, only a year after he twice destroyed the reigning champion inside of one round. :lol:

I have a poster of Clay/Liston and it lists Liston's age at 29. Of course, when he lost, his fans needed an excuse to live with the reality that he got the shit kicked out of him and made to quit by an at that time considered fragile, weak chinned loudmouth, and they started saying he was 35 or older!

So, you actually think he was 29?

[mcvey]

Liston wasnt rated in the top10 till the end of1958,when he came in at no 9,that year he kod Billy hunter and Wayne Bethea,both top twenty heavies,Bethea had been no 8 the year previously and Hunter would be no6 the next year.Listons age is a mystery,but going into the fight with the then Cassius Clay,Sonny had had precisely 6 rounds of actual boxing in 4 years
1961 Howard King ko 3
Albert Westphal ko1
1962Floyd Patterson ko1
1963 Floyd Patterson ko1
Hardly adequate preparation to take on Muhammad Ali,even so Liston was competitive,he had trained for an easy blow out ,3 rounds at most ,but found himself out of gas ,getting a serious arse whipping. The fact that Liston hit so hard ,and koed nearly all his opponents early worked against him when he came up against Ali it meant that he lacked ring rounds ,and paid the penalty,I dont think he would have beaten Ali when in his prime but he would all most certainly have given him a better fight.

[ChrisPontius]

So, you actually think he was 29?

Most of the sources have him born in 1932 which would make him 32. Boxer-punchers age slow, 32 is hardly a killer, which you saw when he destroyed Patterson twice just before.

[ChrisPontius]

Liston wasnt rated in the top10 till the end of1958,when he came in at no 9,that year he kod Billy hunter and Wayne Bethea,both top twenty heavies,Bethea had been no 8 the year previously and Hunter would be no6 the next year.Listons age is a mystery,but going into the fight with the then Cassius Clay,Sonny had had precisely 6 rounds of actual boxing in 4 years
1961 Howard King ko 3
Albert Westphal ko1
1962Floyd Patterson ko1
1963 Floyd Patterson ko1
Hardly adequate preparation to take on Muhammad Ali,even so Liston was competitive,he had trained for an easy blow out ,3 rounds at most ,but found himself out of gas ,getting a serious arse whipping. The fact that Liston hit so hard ,and koed nearly all his opponents early worked against him when he came up against Ali it meant that he lacked ring rounds ,and paid the penalty,I dont think he would have beaten Ali when in his prime but he would all most certainly have given him a better fight.

Fair post.

[Muchmoore]

Holmes is a little too cagey and close to impossible to knock out at his best. Liston could very well drop Holmes and would definently give him tons of problems but Holmes pulls it out by close UD.

[anut]

I Think Holmes Would Beat Him

[PhillyPhan69]

This again is a fight I would love to see! Liston seems to be under rated on this board, while Holmes has his share that love/hate him. I have been thinking about this for about an hour now...and...

liston starts strong establishing the jab, while Larry seems a little tenative about Liston's power. By the third Larry is getting a little more comfortable at establishing his range especially on the jab. by the 5-6 rounds, Larry seems to have taken control of the fight and is dictating the tempo. In the 7th liston stuns Larry. Larry is not himself again to around the 9th and he finnishes strong taking 10-12....And the verdict Draw!!!! if it goes 15 I will lean towards Larry but I see a Draw or if i fall off the fence, I would take Holmes in a SD/MD type vote.

[C. M. Clay II]

Most of the sources have him born in 1932 which would make him 32. Boxer-punchers age slow, 32 is hardly a killer, which you saw when he destroyed Patterson twice just before.

That's what his mother says, but many people said that he looked a lot older. I think he was born under a different name documented around 1929. Also he was among 25 children, so maybe his mom just didn't get around to registering him until later. These are some of the many stories surrounding Liston's age.

Boxer-punchers age slow

They do if they are inactive.:good

[RoccoMarciano]

Holmes jabs him to death. :)

[C. M. Clay II]

Holmes jabs him to death. :)

Liston could conceivably jab Holmes to death as well.

[RoccoMarciano]

Liston could conceivably jab Holmes to death as well.

I'll stick with my pick... thanks :)

[ChrisPontius]

That's what his mother says, but many people said that he looked a lot older. I think he was born under a different name documented around 1929. Also he was among 25 children, so maybe his mom just didn't get around to registering him until later. These are some of the many stories surrounding Liston's age.


Indeed there are many stories.

But going into the second Williams fight, Liston was said to be 26 (1960), going into the Clay fight, he was said to be 29 (1964). It was only after he was humiliated, he all of a sudden was 35, etc....

[C. M. Clay II]

Indeed there are many stories.

But going into the second Williams fight, Liston was said to be 26 (1960), going into the Clay fight, he was said to be 29 (1964). It was only after he was humiliated, he all of a sudden was 35, etc....

So how old do you think he was when he fought Clay?

[ChrisPontius]

Since most reliable sources have him born in 1932, i would go with 32 years old.

[Vantage_West]

No way in hell was Listons Jab better than Holmes.
Liston may have had more power in his jab. But Larrys had more snap.more speed, controlled the fight better with it,used it as a defensive weapon to his advantage better and was more accurate with it.
Holmes is the better all around fighter period.
You cant question Holmes heart you can Listons.:good i agree that as much as holmes had somthing called a jab he had a left hand that did everything it was a tool not a punch.
liston was a deadwieght powerful left cross
holmes used it as a way of doing stuff inside the ring.


why so many people say who has the best jab they say holmes becuase his use of it.

[DocDevil]

I am biased about this,I like Liston,I don't care for Holmes at all.I think it would be a good fight,I do think Holmes had an advantage with the jab through out his career.In this fight he would not,and the fact that the shorter man has the reach on him would bother him.Liston's jab power of punch makes this a very tough fight for Holmes.I think Sonny would win.