When did Pac reach the HOF/ATG status?

[Thinman]

Is it possible to determine now when he actually did it? Boxers are eligible (if they qualify) for the HOF after 5 years of their retirement. After that, historians and/or the so called experts might include them in their ATG list, which I consider very subjective.

So let's see if we can determine when Pac reached each status. Let's assume for a moment that Pac is retired, or let's retire him for a moment and go back in time to that particular time when he achieved that.

Below are different stages (point in times of his career) of retirement which we can consider for this purpose. Please pick the stages of retirement that you consider the most appropriates according to your own judgment, in which Pac achieved said status. If you think that he hasn't achieved one of those status or the two of them, then state that. You might have to select one stage for HOF and one for ATG

If he had retired.......

1- After his fight against Lucero ***** 37W – 1D – 2L******
WBC flyweight title (112) - Lost title in his second defense.
IBF super bantamweight title (122) – Defended title 4 times.
Combined records of opponents at the present before winning his first world title
Totals = 24 fights / Records = 222 W - 144 L – 37 D

2- After his fight against MAB (126) *** 38W – 1D – 2L ***
Pac defeated MAB by TKO in 11

3- After his fight against JMM (126) *** 38W – 2D – 2L ***
Fight was declared a draw.

4- After his fight against 3K Battery (130) *** 39W – 2D – 2L ***
Pac defeated 3K Battery by TKO in 4

5- After his second fight against EM (130) *** 41W – 2D – 3L ***
Pac lost the first fight by UD, this time he won by TKO in 10
(EM 3-time division champion)

6- After his third fight against EM (130) *** 43W – 2D – 3L ***
Pac wins the trilogy winning this time by KO in 3

7- After his fight against Solis (130) *** 44W – 2D – 3L ***
Pac defeated Solis by KO in 8

I have only detailed the basics. I do understand that always is better to determine this when the boxer has been retired for at least 5 years, because many things can happen in the future, boxers he faced in the past and are still active are very important, and that might change his status (position) as an ATG, if you think he deserves a spot of course. However, we are considering that he is already retired and the most important boxers he has faced are pretty much at the end of their career as well, so let's give it a try.

Please feel free to expand at any particular stage, but please state when he did accomplish each status and explain why, also give it a try with the position you think he deserves as an ATG only if you think that he should be considered as such.

Now let's go back to reality and think of what could happen in his future. He's fighting MAB next and after that he could fight Marques, Guzman, Valero and Soto. If he wins those fights he will gain/consolidate his legacy but if he loses those 4 fights would you still consider him ATG/HOF? Which of those four fights you think he should win to keep himself as an ATG/HOF candidate?

[GazOC]

A HOF for sure but not an ATG yet.

:good

[brooklyn1550]

I agree, Pacquiao is a Hall of Famer, but in my criteria of ATG, he has not yet reached it. I think he became worthy of HOF status after he stopped Erik Morales in the 2nd fight.

Should he beat Marco Antonio Barrera and Juan Manuel Marquez, he would most certainly be an ATG, and wins over Guzman/Soto, Valero, and Linares would further than claim. If he beat Barrera and Marquez and became an ATG in my book, but ended up losing to Guzman/Soto and Valero, he would still be an ATG, but just not to the extent he would be if he beat them.

[Amsterdam]

I agree, Pacquiao is a Hall of Famer, but in my criteria of ATG, he has not yet reached it. I think he became worthy of HOF status after he stopped Erik Morales in the 2nd fight.

Should he beat Marco Antonio Barrera and Juan Manuel Marquez, he would most certainly be an ATG, and wins over Guzman/Soto, Valero, and Linares would further than claim. If he beat Barrera and Marquez and became an ATG in my book, but ended up losing to Guzman/Soto and Valero, he would still be an ATG, but just not to the extent he would be if he beat them.

He'd annihilate Soto. Soto is solid, but he's very overrated. Guzman will annihilate Soto in fact.

I think JMM will lose to Pac this time around, it would be a good mark on Pac's resume, I say this also as a long time fan of JMM. JMM is just slipping too much to beat Pac at this point.

Guzman/Pac is the most competitive IMO. Barrera will be blown out, it's a worthless fight.

I think Pac would be successful against Guzman, I say this as a big Guzman fan also.:lol:

I'm just happy to watch a fighter of Pac's calibre in this era.:good

[achillesthegreat]

I believe his Morales wins sealed the deal. His MAB win could simply be a fluke, a one off etc His fight with JMM was 50-50 and JMM wasn't great at that point. Now JMM has shown he is great (beat MAB) and PAC showed he can continously hang with and beat great fighters (JMM, Morales and MAB).

[brooklyn1550]

I think JMM will lose to Pac this time around, it would be a good mark on Pac's resume, I say this also as a long time fan of JMM. JMM is just slipping too much to beat Pac at this point.

Agreed....JMM is still an elite fighter who can give real problems to anybody and has the potential to beat anybody from 126-130, but I think he has lost a step and will be pushed too far by Pacman at this stage.

[Illmatic]

HOF- after beating MAB
ATG- after beating morales

[Morrissey]

He'd annihilate Soto. Soto is solid, but he's very overrated. Guzman will annihilate Soto in fact.

I think JMM will lose to Pac this time around, it would be a good mark on Pac's resume, I say this also as a long time fan of JMM. JMM is just slipping too much to beat Pac at this point.

Guzman/Pac is the most competitive IMO. Barrera will be blown out, it's a worthless fight.

I think Pac would be successful against Guzman, I say this as a big Guzman fan also.:lol:

I'm just happy to watch a fighter of Pac's calibre in this era.:good

Are you sure you are not overestimating Pac here?

I am a big Pac fan but I do feel Guzman's chin and skills could be enough to offset Pac's power.

I agree withh most of your assesment though.

[reed_man02]

HOF- after beating MAB
ATG- after beating morales

Wow, is that all it takes to become an atg?

[Illmatic]

Wow, is that all it takes to become an atg?

beating other all time greats? Yeah...im sorry it seems so easy.

[Toopretty]

Wow, is that all it takes to become an atg?

I hope you are not serious.....................Pac is the truth. The thing with him that impresses me most is that he actually gets better. First Pac was a little ball of aggression and a mean left. Now he has way more skill and he would beat JMM now b/c when they fought Pac didnt have the boxing skills he has now. He will be on my mind years from now and he damned for sure is one of the best to watch. :yep

[reed_man02]

beating other all time greats? Yeah...im sorry it seems so easy.

He has never dominated any or at least been the consensus man at any division. The closest hes been is 130 but even there JMM has a claim to that as well. He didnt even try to unify at 122 or 112. He beat a great in MAB and a faded one in EM but thats about it. I dunno, but he needs some more solid vicotries to put him at atg status.

[Toopretty]

He has never dominated any or at least been the consensus man at any division. The closest hes been is 130 but even there JMM has a claim to that as well. He didnt even try to unify at 122 or 112. He beat a great in MAB and a faded one in EM but thats about it. I dunno, but he needs some more solid vicotries to put him at atg status.

You must be mexican..or possibly need counseling. Pac has guys he needs to fight...but odds are ...he beats them. Nobody really looks better or more dominant then him. I doubt any of the other guys except JMM who is now aging is TRULY on his level. You can say Soto or Guzman whatever..they are just guys he has not fought that are good. Pac is a great fighter. He didnt just beat ATG SKILLED boxers like Barrera and Morales. He brutalized them.

[chimba]

I agree, Pacquiao is a Hall of Famer, but in my criteria of ATG, he has not yet reached it. I think he became worthy of HOF status after he stopped Erik Morales in the 2nd fight.

Should he beat Marco Antonio Barrera and Juan Manuel Marquez, he would most certainly be an ATG, and wins over Guzman/Soto, Valero, and Linares would further than claim. If he beat Barrera and Marquez and became an ATG in my book, but ended up losing to Guzman/Soto and Valero, he would still be an ATG, but just not to the extent he would be if he beat them.

Still Top 50 ATG...but anything further ? NO

[chimba]

You must be mexican..or possibly need counseling. Pac has guys he needs to fight...but odds are ...he beats them. Nobody really looks better or more dominant then him. I doubt any of the other guys except JMM who is now aging is TRULY on his level. You can say Soto or Guzman whatever..they are just guys he has not fought that are good. Pac is a great fighter. He didnt just beat ATG SKILLED boxers like Barrera and Morales. He brutalized them.

You speak the truth..You're unpredictable but you speak truth:good

[PacDbest]

He has never dominated any or at least been the consensus man at any division. The closest hes been is 130 but even there JMM has a claim to that as well. He didnt even try to unify at 122 or 112. He beat a great in MAB and a faded one in EM but thats about it. I dunno, but he needs some more solid vicotries to put him at atg status.

Imagine Pac, JMM, MAB, EM all retired today.... fast forward 5-10 years from now.....How'd you remember this PAC's era????

I was 11 when I started Watching Duran, SRl & Hearns Era.... When I see their old fights I find myself stuck watching their fight again. I'll tell myself "these are the days of Great fights, daym they really are Good!!!" I've seen Chavez, taylor & Whitaker fights & they are not that impressive & enjoyable fight to watch.

Pac was far from retirement & every time & again I'll pop his DVD fights & I have the same enjoyment as watching SRL, Duran & Hearns fights. Im my View pac was at par in excitement & more impressive against elite competition in his Era. DEfinitely on the way to Alltime Greatness.

[Carlos Primera]

pac's a hall of fame fighter right now imo, he reached that status after those fights with mab, jmm, morales 3x. if he beats jmm or guzman his next couple of fights then that's ATG territory. he hangs in a bit more and waits for linares et al. to come up and beats them, thats top 30 territory for me. israel vasquez is also calling for a pac fight, his scalp would be a good addition, and i'm a vasquez fan. if he beats (which would require divine intervention) juan diaz at 135, then thats top 20 territory, for me.

[Thinman]

A HOF for sure but not an ATG yet.

Can you tell us when did he achieve that?

[Thinman]

I agree, Pacquiao is a Hall of Famer, but in my criteria of ATG, he has not yet reached it. I think he became worthy of HOF status after he stopped Erik Morales in the 2nd fight.

Should he beat Marco Antonio Barrera and Juan Manuel Marquez, he would most certainly be an ATG, and wins over Guzman/Soto, Valero, and Linares would further than claim. If he beat Barrera and Marquez and became an ATG in my book, but ended up losing to Guzman/Soto and Valero, he would still be an ATG, but just not to the extent he would be if he beat them.

Would you consider him in the HOF if he had lost to EM the third time they fought?

[Thinman]

He'd annihilate Soto. Soto is solid, but he's very overrated. Guzman will annihilate Soto in fact.

I think JMM will lose to Pac this time around, it would be a good mark on Pac's resume, I say this also as a long time fan of JMM. JMM is just slipping too much to beat Pac at this point.

Guzman/Pac is the most competitive IMO. Barrera will be blown out, it's a worthless fight.

I think Pac would be successful against Guzman, I say this as a big Guzman fan also.:lol:

I'm just happy to watch a fighter of Pac's calibre in this era.:good

IMO Soto and Valero are not great boxers. I think the thoughest fights for him are Guzman and Marquez.

Do you think that he has done enough to be in the HOF/ATG?

[Thinman]

I hope you are not serious.....................Pac is the truth. The thing with him that impresses me most is that he actually gets better. First Pac was a little ball of aggression and a mean left. Now he has way more skill and he would beat JMM now b/c when they fought Pac didnt have the boxing skills he has now. He will be on my mind years from now and he damned for sure is one of the best to watch. :yep

Woud you vote for him as Hall of Famer now? When do you think he achieved that? Would you consider him as an ATG now?

[Illmatic]

He has never dominated any or at least been the consensus man at any division.

:lol::rofl:patsch


what did you call that prolonged dick stomping that was Pac-Barrera....:rofl

[Thinman]

HOF- after beating MAB
ATG- after beating morales

If he loses his next four fights would you still consider him for the HOF?

[Illmatic]

If he loses his next four fights would you still consider him for the HOF?

yes. just like if morales loses his next ten, he is still an atg.

[Thinman]

Still Top 50 ATG...but anything further ? NO

Can you please tell me the 49 boxers that would be ahead of him?

[Thinman]

yes. just like if morales loses his next ten, he is still an atg.

I respect your opinion, but there is a big difference. Morales losing his next ten fights would be like Gatti losing his next ten fights, but if Pac who is in his prime loses 4 fights in a raw, then that's something different.... Don't you think?

[Thinman]

Imagine Pac, JMM, MAB, EM all retired today.... fast forward 5-10 years from now.....How'd you remember this PAC's era????

I was 11 when I started Watching Duran, SRl & Hearns Era.... When I see their old fights I find myself stuck watching their fight again. I'll tell myself "these are the days of Great fights, daym they really are Good!!!" I've seen Chavez, taylor & Whitaker fights & they are not that impressive & enjoyable fight to watch.

Pac was far from retirement & every time & again I'll pop his DVD fights & I have the same enjoyment as watching SRL, Duran & Hearns fights. Im my View pac was at par in excitement & more impressive against elite competition in his Era. DEfinitely on the way to Alltime Greatness.

What's your pick? Can you tell us when did he achieve both status? Exitement is great and I love it, but that doesn't take you to the HOF.

[KhanB]

HOF yes. ATG not yet. Personally, I think Pac should a boxer in his prime to get that status. Somebody like a prime Junior Jones or Kennedy Mckinney. I know theyre both retired but somebody like them. I know Pac destryoed Morales but Zahir Raheem gets no credit for softening him up and Marquez and Pac did have a draw.

[Chert]

pac is already a 3-division and a 2-time lineal champ. he has also KO'd ATGs morales and barrera... HOF is a no-brainer but isn't these accomplishments already enough for ATG status? many HOFers haven't achieved the accomplishments pac has as of now.

[PacDbest]

HOF yes. ATG not yet. Personally, I think Pac should a boxer in his prime to get that status. Somebody like a prime Junior Jones or Kennedy Mckinney. I know theyre both retired but somebody like them. I know Pac destryoed Morales but Zahir Raheem gets no credit for softening him up and Marquez and Pac did have a draw.

Those guys were destroyed already by MAB & EM, Pac destroyed both HOF guys when they were 29 yrs old. MAB continue to be a top notch fighter after Pac beating. EM could win his 4th title on December.

Pac will be 29 in December, Do you expect Pac to be a Shot fighter next year????

Raheem got no Credit coz he Proved he's a fluke fighter losing to Freitas in an ugly fight & stink the joint in his next fight with a Nobody.

After beating MAB, Pac almost finished JMM in 1 rd, then KOed EM twice in a Trilogy. Name me one present Fighter who accomplished that kind of feat???

[PacDbest]

pac is already a 3-division and a 2-time lineal champ. he has also KO'd ATGs morales and barrera... HOF is a no-brainer but isn't these accomplishments already enough for ATG status? many HOFers haven't achieved the accomplishments pac has as of now.

:good

[Illmatic]

I respect your opinion, but there is a big difference. Morales losing his next ten fights would be like Gatti losing his next ten fights, but if Pac who is in his prime loses 4 fights in a raw, then that's something different.... Don't you think?

If pac stays at this weight and loses four in a row, then it would be clear that his prime is over

[Morrissey]

HOF - when he beat Erik Morales the 2nd time around.

ATG - not yet.

[PacDbest]

HOF - when he beat Erik Morales the 2nd time around.

ATG - not yet.

HOF - when he beat Barrera

ATG- after the 3rd fight with Morales

[chimba]

Can you please tell me the 49 boxers that would be ahead of him?

I dont have time for a list.. Go look at other ATG lists floating around online and use simple deduction

Pac beating MAB a second time will SURELY catapult him around the 50's in ay ATG list

Whether we like it or not:deal

[boxbox]

HOF..he's in there....
unfortunatrely as an ATG, he needs to accomplish a few more fights... i think he's almost there, but i think he needs some names (bling) in his resume. Not to mention a title.(bling bling)

[Scar]

Beat great fighters and in impressive fashion, not to forget his physical abilities. He's a great fighter in my eyes already, HOFamer without a doubt and ATG pretty soon.

[Thinman]

I dont have time for a list.. Go look at other ATG lists floating around online and use simple deduction

Pac beating MAB a second time will SURELY catapult him around the 50's in ay ATG list

Whether we like it or not:deal

Please don't misunderstand me. I asked you for the list to see your criteria, your personal opinion. I am more interested in poster opinions than those lists that are around.

To me it doesn't matter whether he becomes number 1, 50 or 100 I just want to compare posters opinions.

I asked a similar question before....this is the thread.... take a look and give me your opinion if you can. There is also a little debate going on in one of the threads (which is a sticky) regarding the committe for the ESB rankings.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Thinman]

Beat great fighters and in impressive fashion, not to forget his physical abilities. He's a great fighter in my eyes already, HOFamer without a doubt and ATG pretty soon.

Scar, would you be able to determine when did he achieve that status.

Do you think that a boxer who has merits to be in HOF can lose that status? Do you think that Pac can lose that status? Is there any boxer out there who is still active and can make a case for the HOF who could lose that status? Mosley? :huh

[chimba]

Please don't misunderstand me. I asked you for the list to see your criteria, your personal opinion. I am more interested in poster opinions than those lists that are around.

To me it doesn't matter whether he becomes number 1, 50 or 100 I just want to compare posters opinions.

I asked a similar question before....this is the thread.... take a look and give me your opinion if you can. There is also a little debate going on in one of the threads (which is a sticky) regarding the committe for the ESB rankings.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Well Duran, Arguello, Sanchez are ahead of him...Hes in the same boat as MAB, Erik, Gomez...When he beats MAB again, hed be in between trios ...

Pac is a bit tricky...When you have a criteria for ATG list..you have to look at the WHOLE BODY of work. PAC was already lineal at FLYweight and Super Bantam...This is what makes him unique...Whether these divisions are the forgotten divisions in boxing, you still have to look at this accomplishment..

And then the special bonuses like being the

Lightest fighter to be (possibly) p4p #1 ever in the history of the sport.

Only Flyweight to win possibly a title at Lightweight

all these things works in his favor

[Thinman]

Well Duran, Arguello, Sanchez are ahead of him...Hes in the same boat as MAB, Erik, Gomez...When he beats MAB again, hed be in between trios ...

Pac is a bit tricky...When you have a criteria for ATG list..you have to look at the WHOLE BODY of work. PAC was already lineal at FLYweight and Super Bantam...This is what makes him unique...Whether these divisions are the forgotten divisions in boxing, you still have to look at this accomplishment..

And then the special bonuses like being the

Lightest fighter to be (possibly) p4p #1 ever in the history of the sport.

Only Flyweight to win possibly a title at Lightweight

all these things works in his favor

Yes, we have to look at the whole package. However, I am not to sold to the word "Lineal", to me it means nothing. It is the champion who makes the belt, not the other way around and this has nothing to do with Pac, it is just a comment that I would apply to any boxer.

Baldomir was the Lineal champion but I don't think he was the best champion at welter after defeating Judah. I hope you understand my point.

The other two comments you posted are possible but we cannot determine that now, we can just speculate.

Anyway thanks for your answer.

[Scar]

Scar, would you be able to determine when did he achieve that status.

Do you think that a boxer who has merits to be in HOF can lose that status? Do you think that Pac can lose that status? Is there any boxer out there who is still active and can make a case for the HOF who could lose that status? Mosley? :huh

Don't think that a fighter can lose that status, what he accomplishes stays the way it is, whether he loses too late in his career or not doesn't matter, it still won't erase a fighter's accomplishments. He achieved that status the night he met Morales the second time and made it clear that he's on his way to ATG status after the third fight, whether he's going to reach ATG status also depends on his next big fight but HOFamer he already is. That's only my opinion though.

[Thinman]

Don't think that a fighter can lose that status, what he accomplishes stays the way it is, whether he loses too late in his career or not doesn't matter, it still won't erase a fighter's accomplishments. He achieved that status the night he met Morales the second time and made it clear that he's on his way to ATG status after the third fight, whether he's going to reach ATG status also depends on his next big fight but HOFamer he already is. That's only my opinion though.

Fair enough. I asked you for your opinion and you just did that. :good

[Scar]

Fair enough. I asked you for your opinion and you just did that. :good

:good

[Fedor Em]

Morales II sealed his status as an ATG.

[chimba]

Yes, we have to look at the whole package. However, I am not to sold to the word "Lineal", to me it means nothing. It is the champion who makes the belt, not the other way around and this has nothing to do with Pac, it is just a comment that I would apply to any boxer.

Baldomir was the Lineal champion but I don't think he was the best champion at welter after defeating Judah. I hope you understand my point.

The other two comments you posted are possible but we cannot determine that now, we can just speculate.

Anyway thanks for your answer.

You're reaching too much...even if I was indifferent to PAC..Champion at FLY legit (not there for 3 fights) then Legit champ at 122...He could have even been champ at at more weights if he wanted to..

Then now hes beating MAB in his prime...and competing with JMM, Erik and now were talking lightweight???

PAC is held in a different standards...No ones asking RAFA or Mijares to fight MAB or Soto..that would be suicide...with PAC it is expected to fight even Katsidis..

I mean even if I was a casual fan and have no knowledge of his history..Id be like "OHH Shit!" The guy who pummelled Lebwadha is now a heavy favorite to pummel MAB...huh how could that be??

PAc has no problem cutting weight...heck hes at 130 now with 3 weeks to go...how bout he cuts to 122..he'll wipe the floor with everyone
Ponce De Leon is a big guy for SBW..mention him fighting Guzman next and people will think you're insane...With PAC all 5'5 of him no problem ..it is expected..he chases greatness...thats why he is adored

It is an incredible journey even if you have not followed it...

[kg0208]

You're reaching too much...even if I was indifferent to PAC..Champion at FLY legit (not there for 3 fights) then Legit champ at 122...He could have even been champ at at more weights if he wanted to..

Then now hes beating MAB in his prime...and competing with JMM, Erik and now were talking lightweight???

PAC is held in a different standards...No ones asking RAFA or Mijares to fight MAB or Soto..that would be suicide...with PAC it is expected to fight even Katsidis..

I mean even if I was a casual fan and have no knowledge of his history..Id be like "OHH Shit!" The guy who pummelled Lebwadha is now a heavy favorite to pummel MAB...huh how could that be??

PAc has no problem cutting weight...heck hes at 130 now with 3 weeks to go...how bout he cuts to 122..he'll wipe the floor with everyone
Ponce De Leon is a big guy for SBW..mention him fighting Guzman next and people will think you're insane...With PAC all 5'5 of him no problem ..it is expected..he chases greatness...thats why he is adored

It is an incredible journey even if you have not followed it...

I honestly don't recall anyone saying Pacman had to fight at LW. That was the idea and path laid out by a Pacman fan, not anyone else. If anything , I see alot of people saying he needs to clean out 130 and reign there.

[chimba]

I honestly don't recall anyone saying Pacman had to fight at LW. That was the idea and path laid out by a Pacman fan, not anyone else. If anything , I see alot of people saying he needs to clean out 130 and reign there.

I understand but it is being mentioned..Im saying its not out of question.. Yeah he needs to clean out 130 first no doubt...

[Thinman]

You're reaching too much...even if I was indifferent to PAC..Champion at FLY legit (not there for 3 fights) then Legit champ at 122...He could have even been champ at at more weights if he wanted to..

Then now hes beating MAB in his prime...and competing with JMM, Erik and now were talking lightweight???

PAC is held in a different standards...No ones asking RAFA or Mijares to fight MAB or Soto..that would be suicide...with PAC it is expected to fight even Katsidis..

I mean even if I was a casual fan and have no knowledge of his history..Id be like "OHH Shit!" The guy who pummelled Lebwadha is now a heavy favorite to pummel MAB...huh how could that be??

PAc has no problem cutting weight...heck hes at 130 now with 3 weeks to go...how bout he cuts to 122..he'll wipe the floor with everyone
Ponce De Leon is a big guy for SBW..mention him fighting Guzman next and people will think you're insane...With PAC all 5'5 of him no problem ..it is expected..he chases greatness...thats why he is adored

It is an incredible journey even if you have not followed it...

I understand your point. But my point (this thread) basically is about his status now, when he accomplish the rest then that will be a different story. I am not trying to ignore what you said I am just trying to stick to the thread. Also I did not say or mean that he was not a legit champion, I just gave you an example why I don't care too much about the word "LINEAL". Nothing more, nothing less.

[chimba]

I understand your point. But my point (this thread) basically is about his status now, when he accomplish the rest then that will be a different story. I am not trying to ignore what you said I am just trying to stick to the thread. Also I did not say or mean that he was not a legit champion, I just gave you an example why I don't care too much about the word "LINEAL". Nothing more, nothing less.

OK then he's HOF for sure regardless of the future

IF we measure ATG as Top 50 of all time he aint there yet...

If he beats MAB...IM saying is he might be in top 50. Will there be consensus on that? NO but its not unreasonable

He Beats JMM, Soto, and Guzman..Hell be way up there..I tell you he's knockin on Chavez level

[Thinman]

OK then he's HOF for sure regardless of the future

IF we measure ATG as Top 50 of all time he aint there yet...

If he beats MAB...IM saying is he might be in top 50. Will there be consensus on that? NO but its not unreasonable

He Beats JMM, Soto, and Guzman..Hell be way up there..I tell you he's knockin on Chavez level

Thanks for your opinion.

[kg0208]

Pacman has been a HoF for a while now. After the 126 Ring title, he was HoF material.

I don't define ATG by a certain # because I would have to constantly raise the credentials. (IE when someone moves into the top 50, they would move someone out, raising the standards to at least # 50''s accomplishments and skill level) Pacman is a lower tier ATG, much like PBF is at this point in his career IMO.

[PacDbest]

You're reaching too much...even if I was indifferent to PAC..Champion at FLY legit (not there for 3 fights) then Legit champ at 122...He could have even been champ at at more weights if he wanted to..

Then now hes beating MAB in his prime...and competing with JMM, Erik and now were talking lightweight???

PAC is held in a different standards...No ones asking RAFA or Mijares to fight MAB or Soto..that would be suicide...with PAC it is expected to fight even Katsidis..

I mean even if I was a casual fan and have no knowledge of his history..Id be like "OHH Shit!" The guy who pummelled Lebwadha is now a heavy favorite to pummel MAB...huh how could that be??

PAc has no problem cutting weight...heck hes at 130 now with 3 weeks to go...how bout he cuts to 122..he'll wipe the floor with everyone
Ponce De Leon is a big guy for SBW..mention him fighting Guzman next and people will think you're insane...With PAC all 5'5 of him no problem ..it is expected..he chases greatness...thats why he is adored

It is an incredible journey even if you have not followed it...

Chimba, I hope you enlighten a lot of non Believers here. You give a nice Birds eye view of what Pac has accomplished so far.

[PacDbest]

Pacman has been a HoF for a while now. After the 126 Ring title, he was HoF material.

I don't define ATG by a certain # because I would have to constantly raise the credentials. (IE when someone moves into the top 50, they would move someone out, raising the standards to at least # 50''s accomplishments and skill level) Pacman is a lower tier ATG, much like PBF is at this point in his career IMO.

For me Pac was higher in ATG status than PBF right now. He Knockout 2 ATGs not too far from their Prime. It's not only how Many Great fighter Pac has Beaten, It's how he beat them, Devastating & Spectacular. Floyd only win against ATG is with a SD wins against DLH.

[kg0208]

For me Pac was higher in ATG status than PBF right now. He Knockout 2 ATGs not too far from their Prime. It's not only how Many Great fighter Pac has Beaten, It's how he beat them, Devastating & Spectacular. Floyd only win against ATG is with a SD wins against DLH.
PBF's resume has more depth. He has more titles, less losses, more lineal titles, and more overall talent IMO and most peoples. I know you have Pacman higher than PBF at this point. That goes without saying. However, until Pacman grabs a title at 130 (which he may not do due to the sanctioning fees bit) he is going to struggle reaching that level.

Stop insulting others with the "non believers" crap. I believe Pacman is great, I just don't rate him as highly as you do, and you rate him that way because he is your countryman.

[PacDbest]

PBF's resume has more depth. He has more titles, less losses, more lineal titles, and more overall talent IMO and most peoples. I know you have Pacman higher than PBF at this point. That goes without saying. However, until Pacman grabs a title at 130 (which he may not do due to the sanctioning fees bit) he is going to struggle reaching that level.

Stop insulting others with the "non believers" crap. I believe Pacman is great, I just don't rate him as highly as you do, and you rate him that way because he is your countryman.

Just recently watched all "P4P Profile episodes in youtube of SRR, SRL, Duran, Pep & Armstrong. I can easily imagine Pac joining those Group. SRR Destroying great opponents, Pac did that. SRL wanting to fight the best & dare to be Great, Pac did that. Duran moving up a weight class to fight the best out there & beat them, Pac did that. Armstrong Champ at 3 original weight class, Pac can do that after He beat the best lightweight Champ. SRL has the smile & Charisma, Pac has that. Duran has Machismo, Pac has that.

The only thing Pac can't do is Pep's hit & run for Greatness, Floyd did that. It's just not Pac's style, He does instead the Hunting & he's good in that category. Sasakul. Ledwaba & MAB tried to run & don't get hit in their fight with Pac but Pac still caught them & KOed them.

I suggest you watch them all again & listen to all Boxing historian's Praises of each boxers, Then imagine what will say about Pac when Pac finally retires.

[kg0208]

Just recently watched all "P4P Profile episodes in youtube of SRR, SRL, Duran, Pep & Armstrong. I can easily imagine Pac joining those Group. SRR Destroying great opponents, Pac did that. SRL wanting to fight the best & dare to be Great, Pac did that. Duran moving up a weight class to fight the best out there & beat them, Pac did that. Armstrong Champ at 3 original weight class, Pac can do that after He beat the best lightweight Champ. SRL has the smile & Charisma, Pac has that. Duran has Machismo, Pac has that.

The only thing Pac can't do is Pep's hit & run for Greatness, Floyd did that. It's just not Pac's style, He does instead the Hunting & he's good in that category. Sasakul. Ledwaba & MAB tried to run & don't get hit in their fight with Pac but Pac still caught them & KOed them.

I suggest you watch them all again & listen to all Boxing historian's Praises of each boxers, Then imagine what will say about Pac when Pac finally retires.
I suggest you stop using what MIGHT happen and what you IMAGINE as signs of someones greatness.

I don't need to watch things I have already seen and things that have nothing to do with this discussion. When Pacman does all the things you have "visions" of him doing, get back to me. If he doesn't, then I don't care what your "vision" of him is.

You have your opinion, I have mine.

[kg0208]

Oh yeah, and stop insulting guys like Pep. Otherwise, don't complain when people match up Pacman with ATG's. Those statements are WHY he gets matched up with them, then you feign innocence and act as though someone else started the threads for no reason.

[Ramshall1]

He solidified his legacy when he stopped EM for the second time.

[PacDbest]

Oh yeah, and stop insulting guys like Pep. Otherwise, don't complain when people match up Pacman with ATG's. Those statements are WHY he gets matched up with them, then you feign innocence and act as though someone else started the threads for no reason.

I'm not insulting Pep, I'm just comparing him with Floyd. Pep himself said that his style is Hit & run & live another day.

[kg0208]

I'm not insulting Pep, I'm just comparing him with Floyd. Pep himself said that his style is Hit & run & live another day.

Pep and PBF fight nothing alike.

And I have heard you insult the style before....and insult PBF for using it. So when you compare the two, I can only surmise you mean to insult Pep.

I believe Pep said his style was hit and move, but I could be mistaken. Either way, Pep rarely had to run as he could stand in front of you and make you miss all day. His style was closer to Whitaker's than PBF's.

[PacDbest]

Pep and PBF fight nothing alike.

And I have heard you insult the style before....and insult PBF for using it. So when you compare the two, I can only surmise you mean to insult Pep.

I believe Pep said his style was hit and move, but I could be mistaken. Either way, Pep rarely had to run as he could stand in front of you and make you miss all day. His style was closer to Whitaker's than PBF's.

That's why I suggest you watch it again.

My intentions is to show what Pac has done compare to this Greats. If MAB, EM & Pac were all welterweights & all Americans, I don't think I'll tried so hard to explain this.

[kg0208]

That's why I suggest you watch it again.

My intentions is to show what Pac has done compare to this Greats. If MAB, EM & Pac were all welterweights & all Americans, I don't think I'll tried so hard to explain this.
I don't need to watch again. I know what those greats did. Beating 2 HoF doesn't qualify you as a high level ATG. Pacman, MAB, and Morales haven't accomplished anywhere near the things that the fighters you named off did.

And don't play the American card. Many Mexicans are considered ATG, and so are a few Asians. It has nothing to do with that. It has to do with accomplishments in the Ring.

Pacman has accomplished alot, no one is arguing that. But to the level of Duran, SRL, Pep, Etc? Not even close yet.

[PacDbest]

I don't need to watch again. I know what those greats did. Beating 2 HoF doesn't qualify you as a high level ATG. Pacman, MAB, and Morales haven't accomplished anywhere near the things that the fighters you named off did.

And don't play the American card. Many Mexicans are considered ATG, and so are a few Asians. It has nothing to do with that. It has to do with accomplishments in the Ring.

Pacman has accomplished alot, no one is arguing that. But to the level of Duran, SRL, Pep, Etc? Not even close yet.

I didn't say Pac is in their Level already, I'll say I believe Pac will be there.

[kg0208]

I didn't say Pac is in their Level already, I'll say I believe Pac will be there.

Then we have no disagreement.

[kukoy]

For me, Pac got the HOF status when he beat EM the second time. But ATG status, nowhere close. Still too many good opponents to fight. Until he cleaned out those guys, a question mark will always be there. He should not leave any "what ifs".

[nighthunter]

A HOF for sure but not an ATG yet.
:good
If he beat atleast 3 from marquez, valero, guzman and soto
for sure he must be ATG

[nighthunter]

I'm just happy to watch a fighter of Pac's calibre in this era.:good
I agree with that:bbb

[EricGN]

He is ATG now

[lfc18titles]

for me he is an all time great when he destroyed cotto

this man has taken out the best feather weight, best light weight, best light welterweight and in my opinion the 2nd best welterweigh (after floyd)

HE HAS NEVER ducked anyone and gone for the best always. he has done way more than say fighters like de la hoya have done imo

i firmly believe if he manages to somehow get mayweather to not duck him and wins then he will go alongside the great ali as an all time great

if he gets past mayweather

take out, mosley, mayweather in a rematch and possibly foreman then he will without a shadow of doubt be the greatest of all time

[punk]

Pacdabest what is Mannys plans and future status now?

[HateHateHate]

for both criteria: The day he was born. Ha!

[skel1983]

for me he is an all time great when he destroyed cotto

this man has taken out the best feather weight, best light weight, best light welterweight and in my opinion the 2nd best welterweigh (after floyd)

HE HAS NEVER ducked anyone and gone for the best always. he has done way more than say fighters like de la hoya have done imo

i firmly believe if he manages to somehow get mayweather to not duck him and wins then he will go alongside the great ali as an all time great

if he gets past mayweather

take out, mosley, mayweather in a rematch and possibly foreman then he will without a shadow of doubt be the greatest of all time


As if Foreman means anything, also as if Foreman would still be champ in three fights time which is between 12-18 months.

[philthyphil]

It all depends on what you classify as an ATG and where the number stops.

Surefire hall-of-famer yes, ATG in the top 50? Without a doubt. I think he reached HOF status after his final Morales fight.

ATG in the top 10? No, not quite. If he beats Floyd and maybe a Mosley...I might squeak him into the top 15.

[Sweet Pea]

I don't consider steroid abusers all time greats.

[philthyphil]

I don't consider steroid abusers all time greats.

Do you happen to have the dirty sample handy?

[dodong]

I don't consider steroid abusers all time greats.

Don't you feel embarrased when your old post comes back and bite you in the ass?

[bxrfan]

Pacdabest what is Mannys plans and future status now?
Uhh, this thread's sorta like two years old. . . . . . . . he's long gone by now. . . . . .

[Kush]

Pacdbest knew Balquiao was using roids

[Sweet Pea]

Don't you feel embarrased when your old post comes back and bite you in the ass?I just typed that post today...

[dodong]

I just typed that post today...

I was talking about the or those other ones, but it's allright, you're not alone. :good

[jrhjoker]

MANNYS legacy came down in FLAMES.............

[josak]

I don't consider steroid abusers all time greats.

Lay off the koolaid Pea.

[Morrissey]

The HOF when he beat Morales for the 2nd time.

The ATG after he beat Marquez.

[jrhjoker]

The HOF when he beat Morales for the 2nd time.

The ATG after he beat Marquez.


OKAY IF YOU SAY SO....:lol:

[urmutha]

hard to say cause manny's given us some really great performances.

but i'll have to say when he beat cotto. :smoke

[tepaltzin]

The HOF when he beat Morales for the 2nd time.

The ATG after he beat Marquez.

Pactards:rofl

[Morrissey]

OKAY IF YOU SAY SO....:lol:

:patsch

What is your point joker?

[EricGN]

It would be stupid if you hate a person just because "Rumored" has it that he is roids without any "proof". Rational person knows that.

Pac is still ATG on my eyes

[tepaltzin]

PAC is an ATG, no doubt about it!

TO me the Cotto victory cemented his status.

[Morrissey]

Pactards:rofl

:lol:

Tell me when did Mayweather, Jr reached ATG status as a ducker?

When he stuttered in front of camera against Mosley's?:|

[nbg75]

I don't consider steroid abusers all time greats.

you must be referring to another fellow not Pac. the guy passed all tests. he is RUMORED to be a roid abuser but never proven (not even probable cause)

[jrhjoker]

you must be referring to another fellow not pac. The guy passed all tests. He is rumored to be a roid abuser but never proven (not even probable cause)


how can they catch him if he dont allow random testing.

[Totomabs]

I don't consider steroid abusers all time greats.


strong words and baseless accusations eh.:lol:

will quote you on this sweetie pie and will surely get back to you once this steroid circus ends and pacquiao proves all his critics wrong again.:hey

[Totomabs]

I don't consider steroid abusers all time greats.


a pac-hater will always be a hater.

hurling unfounded and baseless accusations to pacman who has never been tested positive to steroids isn't gonna help your case, you all-knowing prick.:lol:

pac's definitely a better person compared to whitaker, your idol, who used to be an addict that went to rehab.:patsch

how's that for an idol sweetie pie?:rofl

[Totomabs]

how can they catch him if he dont allow random testing.


if a fighter is being singled out for something that has no basis to merit an accusation from, that's discrimination.. better yet.. defamation of character.:lol:

i just hope the mayweathers will be able to back up their accusations in court or else they will look stupid chickens who will look like junkies after losing all their money in this lawsuit.:rofl

[dhenzrae]

I don't consider steroid abusers all time greats.
you're better than that Pea.

[crimson]

how can they catch him if he dont allow random testing.

That logic is nonsensical. PBF has YET to be randomly tested, so according to you he is not an ATG and/or an abuser.

Pac and PBF are definitely ATG. I put Pac in somewhere 17-22 range. I know Bert Sugar has him in the teens "easily" (his own words). PBF somewhere in the 25-30 range IMO. Pac beats PBF, I put him in 8-12. PBF beats Pac, 10-14.

When was Pac an ATG (top 50 is what I consider ATG)? Probably after beating JMM.

[jrhjoker]

That logic is nonsensical. PBF has YET to be randomly tested, so according to you he is not an ATG and/or an abuser.

Pac and PBF are definitely ATG. I put Pac in somewhere 17-22 range. I know Bert Sugar has him in the teens "easily" (his own words). PBF somewhere in the 25-30 range IMO. Pac beats PBF, I put him in 8-12. PBF beats Pac, 10-14.

When was Pac an ATG (top 50 is what I consider ATG)? Probably after beating JMM.
MAYBE TO HIS FANS HE IS .HE SHOULD HAVE ALLOWED RANDOM TESTING. now there will always be a shadow over his so called LEGACY

[enzo]

Just recently watched all "P4P Profile episodes in youtube of SRR, SRL, Duran, Pep & Armstrong. I can easily imagine Pac joining those Group. SRR Destroying great opponents, Pac did that. SRL wanting to fight the best & dare to be Great, Pac did that. Duran moving up a weight class to fight the best out there & beat them, Pac did that. Armstrong Champ at 3 original weight class, Pac can do that after He beat the best lightweight Champ. SRL has the smile & Charisma, Pac has that. Duran has Machismo, Pac has that.

The only thing Pac can't do is Pep's hit & run for Greatness, Floyd did that. It's just not Pac's style, He does instead the Hunting & he's good in that category. Sasakul. Ledwaba & MAB tried to run & don't get hit in their fight with Pac but Pac still caught them & KOed them.

I suggest you watch them all again & listen to all Boxing historian's Praises of each boxers, Then imagine what will say about Pac when Pac finally retires.


Manny Steward? :yep

Pacdabest owns you haters!

[crimson]

MAYBE TO HIS FANS HE IS .HE SHOULD HAVE ALLOWED RANDOM TESTING. now there will always be a shadow over his so called LEGACY

Well it is too early to make concrete and absolute proclamations on how this will be perceived in regards to his legacy. I suspect that it will be a footnote considering the allegations' primary source is from the PBF camp- with no evidence or even hints prior to that.
Those who prefer PBF to begin with, especially those who thinks he is the best and not Pac, will likely continue to believe he is guilty without evidence. Pac fans will be the reversed - innocent until proven guilty.

[jrhjoker]

well it is too early to make concrete and absolute proclamations on how this will be perceived in regards to his legacy. I suspect that it will be a footnote considering the allegations' primary source is from the pbf camp- with no evidence or even hints prior to that.
Those who prefer pbf to begin with, especially those who thinks he is the best and not pac, will likely continue to believe he is guilty without evidence. Pac fans will be the reversed - innocent until proven guilty.
we will see

[Marcelo]

Imagine Pac, JMM, MAB, EM all retired today.... fast forward 5-10 years from now.....How'd you remember this PAC's era????

I was 11 when I started Watching Duran, SRl & Hearns Era.... When I see their old fights I find myself stuck watching their fight again. I'll tell myself "these are the days of Great fights, daym they really are Good!!!" I've seen Chavez, taylor & Whitaker fights & they are not that impressive & enjoyable fight to watch.

Pac was far from retirement & every time & again I'll pop his DVD fights & I have the same enjoyment as watching SRL, Duran & Hearns fights. Im my View pac was at par in excitement & more impressive against elite competition in his Era. DEfinitely on the way to Alltime Greatness.

Almost there Pacd!!!

[Marcelo]

I don't need to watch again. I know what those greats did. Beating 2 HoF doesn't qualify you as a high level ATG. Pacman, MAB, and Morales haven't accomplished anywhere near the things that the fighters you named off did.

And don't play the American card. Many Mexicans are considered ATG, and so are a few Asians. It has nothing to do with that. It has to do with accomplishments in the Ring.

Pacman has accomplished alot, no one is arguing that. But to the level of Duran, SRL, Pep, Etc? Not even close yet.

Now he is!!!

[Marcelo]

I didn't say Pac is in their Level already, I'll say I believe Pac will be there.

Pac's there now!!

[PH|LLA]

HOF when he beat MAB.

ATG when he won the Morales trilogy