jake lamotta vs billy conn....

[shommel]

both prime and you must remember conn was really super middle and small light heavy whereas lamotta fit into both catagories comfortably. who do you give the nod to how and why?

[cotto20]

Interesting one. I'd favour Conn but not by much

[shommel]

what makes you favor conn in this matchup?

[Mr Butt]

conn would get a close ud ,conn was quick and also an intelligent fighter with very good boxing skills he fought heavier men with bigger punching power than lamotta without getting wrecked apart from the loss to louis who conn was outboxing.lamotta would pressure conn and always be in the fight but conns superior boxing would win the day.conns jab is the fight winner in my humble opinion

[Flea Man]

Conn KO 1

[TheGreatA]

LaMotta at 160
Conn at 175

[Mr Butt]

LaMotta at 160
Conn at 175


that is what i was thinking but dont think that would stop lamotta taking the fight :bbb

[JudgeDredd]

Conn by decision, fast hands, good technically

[Chris Warren]

Most of you believe Joe Louis is the greatest heavyweight or at least the second greatest heavyweight of all time. Then if that is the case Conn would easily beat Lamotta. Louis was bigger, stronger, quicker and of course a harder puncher than Lamotta. There is no chance in hell Lamotta could win.

[junior-soprano]

conn wins this one. way to fast for jake

[PowerPuncher]

Conn from 160-175 beats him clearly, what a beautiful boxer Conn was, Conn is bigger than Robinson and skills not too too far away from the P4P champ. Lamottas pressure keeps him in it, may take some rounds but Conn would clearly be the much better man

[shommel]

conn was a slick boxer but he got kod by louis while lamotta took satterfields best shots and knocked him out. i see lamotta negatating billys jab with his left hook and heavy body pressure. toss up fight .

[PowerPuncher]

conn was a slick boxer but he got kod by louis while lamotta took satterfields best shots and knocked him out. i see lamotta negatating billys jab with his left hook and heavy body pressure. toss up fight .

Your comparing arguably the greatest HW of all time Louis with a club fighter in his 10th fight :nut

[shommel]

according to box rec the lamotta satterfield was satterfields 17th fight and he had won just about all of them and in there with some good fighters. satterfield was one of the hardest punchers ever and lamotta kod him what makes you think he cant ko conn or at least beat him?

[turpinr]

conn by decision
neither was a big puncher and both pocessed good chins

[PowerPuncher]

according to box rec the lamotta satterfield was satterfields 17th fight and he had won just about all of them and in there with some good fighters. satterfield was one of the hardest punchers ever and lamotta kod him what makes you think he cant ko conn or at least beat him?

Because Satterfield isnt in Conn's class and pretty much anyone half decent beat Satterfield, plenty stopped him early, and the only particularly good fighter he'd been in with prior to Lamotta was Holman Williams who ofcourse beat him.

Conn was never ko'd after the age of 17 by anyone except Louis who would also blow out Lamotta pretty quickly, and Conn fought the best MWs and LHWs of his day.

[shommel]

i could see maybe conn bye decision but there is no way hes koing lamotta the all time greatest chin. the man took tremendous punishment from tons of great fighters and then walked through them. this gives me the impression that lamotta eeks out a win over the less durable conn.

[Hadrian]

conn easy win---conn was better boxer, faster and took Joe louis punches (one of the hardest hitiing HEAVYWEIGHTS ever) for 12 rounds. Not even close against a short, slow, midlleweight.

[TheGreatA]

I have no doubts about the result at light heavyweight but Conn was young and inexperienced as a middleweight, struggling with Fritzie Zivic, Young Corbett III, Teddy Yarosz, Solly Krieger and even journeyman Oscar Rankin.

I think LaMotta would be too strong and experienced for him at that point.

[Dempsey1238]

I have no doubts about the result at light heavyweight but Conn was young and inexperienced as a middleweight, struggling with Fritzie Zivic, Young Corbett III, Teddy Yarosz, Solly Krieger and even journeyman Oscar Rankin.

I think LaMotta would be too strong and experienced for him at that point.


Perhaps, but one cant down play Zivic and Corbett III who were amazing fighters in there own right. No shame in a struggle with them imo.

[shommel]

exactly what im talking about lamotta decisively whipped zivic a number of times while at the same time taking on anyone within a reasonable amount of weight. i believe hed give billy a tougher fight than louis, who conn was whipping till he got overanxious. lamotta tended to be busier and was not as slow as many of you are making him out to be. i mean after all he beat the great srr and im sure he was faster than billy.

[red cobra]

Billy Conn would beat Jake much like he did Tony Zale...he was too fast, resourceful and clever for any middleweight...hell, he almost beat Louis, what would he have to fear from any middleweight?

[TheGreatA]

Billy Conn would beat Jake much like he did Tony Zale...he was too fast, resourceful and clever for any middleweight...hell, he almost beat Louis, what would he have to fear from any middleweight?

Billy Conn after his fight with middleweight title holder Fred Apostoli:

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[red cobra]

Billy Conn after his fight with middleweight title holder Fred Apostoli:

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Yeah, but he BEAT Fred Apostoli twice...

[TheGreatA]

Yeah, but he BEAT Fred Apostoli twice...

He did but I'd say he would have had quite a lot to worry about against LaMotta and some other middleweights. Conn called the Apostoli fights his toughest ever.

[Dempsey1238]

He may have beating Fred, but Conn didnt relly walk away from the fights in good shape either.

[shommel]

why lamotta at 160? how about them even at or both at 160 or both at 175 lamotta fought there plenty of times and put away some good fighters.you must remember he struggled to make middle. this would be one heck of a scrap.im also quite sure lamotta could stand up to louis punches after all the supposedly great conn did for 12 - 13 rounds and jake definitely has the tougher chin.

[PowerPuncher]

i could see maybe conn bye decision but there is no way hes koing lamotta the all time greatest chin. the man took tremendous punishment from tons of great fighters and then walked through them. this gives me the impression that lamotta eeks out a win over the less durable conn.

What makes you think Conn wasn't equally as durable? From the age of 17 until the Louis fight, Conn went 51-1-3 against the best opposition of his day, without being stopped, going from Welter-Light Heavy. Thats some record

[PowerPuncher]

I have no doubts about the result at light heavyweight but Conn was young and inexperienced as a middleweight, struggling with Fritzie Zivic, Young Corbett III, Teddy Yarosz, Solly Krieger and even journeyman Oscar Rankin.

I think LaMotta would be too strong and experienced for him at that point.

Conn did beat most of those men though beating Zivic as a 19yo. You could equally say Lamotta struggled against Marhsall (lost), Zivic (lost and went to SDs), Old Williams (debatable decision), Villemain (lost), Dauthuille (lost), Hudson (lost), Lytell (debatable SD), Basora (lost and avenged by stoppage)

So Conn wasnt as dominant or near prime at MW but Lamotta has more losses himself at the weight in his actual prime

[TheGreatA]

Conn did beat most of those men though beating Zivic as a 19yo. You could equally say Lamotta struggled against Marhsall (lost), Zivic (lost and went to SDs), Old Williams (debatable decision), Villemain (lost), Dauthuille (lost), Hudson (lost), Lytell (debatable SD), Basora (lost and avenged by stoppage)

So Conn wasnt as dominant or near prime at MW but Lamotta has more losses himself at the weight in his actual prime

Don't know about all of these fights being in his prime. I also don't know what was debatable about the Holman Williams decision.

LaMotta lost to Basora when he was 20 years old, to Zivic when he was 21. He was already slowing down by the time he threw the fight to Billy Fox, Robinson for example noted that LaMotta while still strong was much slower than in the early 1940's when they fought for a sixth time.

From 1942 to 1947 he only lost to Ray Robinson, Lloyd Marshall and Fritzie Zivic.

Conn way young and inexperienced at 160 and that's basically the point I was making. Despite having a solid chin he was dropped quite a few times as a middleweight and struggled and lost to people he would have beaten in his 175 lb prime.

[PowerPuncher]

Don't know about all of these fights being in his prime. I also don't know what was debatable about the Holman Williams decision.

LaMotta lost to Basora when he was 20 years old, to Zivic when he was 21. He was already slowing down by the time he threw the fight to Billy Fox, Robinson for example noted that LaMotta while still strong was much slower than in the early 1940's when they fought for a sixth time.

From 1942 to 1947 he only lost to Ray Robinson, Lloyd Marshall and Fritzie Zivic.

Conn way young and inexperienced at 160 and that's basically the point I was making. Despite having a solid chin he was dropped quite a few times as a middleweight and struggled and lost to people he would have beaten in his 175 lb prime.

I can't remember who but someone posted something on here about the Williams/Lytell decisions being close/controversal. Williams was also 34 and 150 fights into his career, and Lytell about 20/21 (from recollection)

As for the 'From 1942 to 1947 he only lost to Ray Robinson, Lloyd Marshall and Fritzie Zivic', in '42 he lost to Basora, in '47 he lost to Hudson, but it was certainly a good little run

[SLAKKA]

I have no doubts about the result at light heavyweight but Conn was young and inexperienced as a middleweight, struggling with Fritzie Zivic, Young Corbett III, Teddy Yarosz, Solly Krieger and even journeyman Oscar Rankin.

I think LaMotta would be too strong and experienced for him at that point.
Sir u mention Billys loss to the great unsung polish panther Teddy Yarosz like its to be held against him
As well as referencing the "Red Headed Terror" Oscar Rankins as a mundane "journeyman"
My response??

SO MUCH FOR YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF BOXING!!!

Keidan: Ex-champs remember . ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette - Google News Archive - Sep 20, 1985
I fought a middleweight from Chicago, Oscar Rankins. Nobody ever hit harder than Oscar Rankins. When joe Louis found out I fought Rankins be said: The fellows who managed you mussta not liked you very much
All 2 related ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) - Related web pages ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

An Evening In Society . ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette - Google News Archive - Nov 24, 1942
hulk of a man out of Chicago, who used to bring Oscar Rankins, a ferocious redhaired colored middleweight, here some years back to strike terror into our ...
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Al Abrams . ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette - Google News Archive - May 1, 1976
... Conn was cutting into a steak the other night when he remarked this steak u tougher than Oscar rankins was a tough middleweight back in the late ) .
Related web pages ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

[TheGreatA]

Sir u mention Billys loss to the great unsung polish panther Teddy Yarosz like its to be held against him
As well as referencing the "Red Headed Terror" Oscar Rankins as a mundane "journeyman"
My response??

SO MUCH FOR YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF BOXING!!!

Keidan: Ex-champs remember . ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette - Google News Archive - Sep 20, 1985
I fought a middleweight from Chicago, Oscar Rankins. Nobody ever hit harder than Oscar Rankins. When joe Louis found out I fought Rankins be said: The fellows who managed you mussta not liked you very much
All 2 related ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) - Related web pages ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

An Evening In Society . ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette - Google News Archive - Nov 24, 1942
hulk of a man out of Chicago, who used to bring Oscar Rankins, a ferocious redhaired colored middleweight, here some years back to strike terror into our ...
Related web pages ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Al Abrams . ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette - Google News Archive - May 1, 1976
... Conn was cutting into a steak the other night when he remarked this steak u tougher than Oscar rankins was a tough middleweight back in the late ) .
Related web pages ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

I'm afraid you're going overboard here. I was simply pointing out Conn's struggles at middleweight and that he got better later on in his career. LaMotta surely belongs with names such as Zivic, Yarosz, Krieger and Apostoli who all gave Conn plenty of trouble.

Having close bouts with Teddy Yarosz is certainly nothing to be ashamed of. You could make the case though that Yarosz won all of their three bouts and had the better of Conn.

Calling Raskin a journeyman was a bit of an over-statement. I did so because he travelled often and fought all the top fighters of his day, losing some, winning some. He knocked Conn down and lost a disputed split decision.

Rankins was tough but LaMotta was tougher. I imagine LaMotta would give Conn a tough fight at middleweight much like the men that I listed did.

[SLAKKA]

May I declare a moratorium on ranking Billy Conn as a middleweight please???!!!
This was his division while a teen lad.
The post sez both fighter in their PRIMES

[TheGreatA]

May I declare a moratorium on ranking Billy Conn as a middleweight please???!!!
This was his division while a teen lad.
The post sez both fighter in their PRIMES

Indeed. I was making the point that LaMotta would stand a very good chance against the middleweight version of Conn.

LaMotta at 160
Conn at 175

I have no doubts about the result at light heavyweight but Conn was young and inexperienced as a middleweight, struggling with Fritzie Zivic, Young Corbett III, Teddy Yarosz, Solly Krieger and even journeyman Oscar Rankin.

I think LaMotta would be too strong and experienced for him at that point.

[SLAKKA]

Indeed. I was making the point that LaMotta would stand a very good chance against the middleweight version of Conn.

middleweight billy??..May i ask why??..
I mean what next?? The 13 yr old version of Wilfred Benitez vs god knows who?

[TheGreatA]

middleweight billy??..May i ask why??..
I mean what next?? The 13 yr old version of Wilfred Benitez vs god knows who?

Middleweight Billy was good enough to beat several hall of famers.

[SLAKKA]

OK middleweight teeage Billy is an outbet vs prime Jake

Can we discuss both primes now?

[SLAKKA]

Hard to think of Billy on the form he showed vs a prime Zale having a problem with any version of Jake Lamotta


Billy toyed with Zale!

[red cobra]

This thread has gone on too long, IMO...Billy Conn beats Jake LaMotta at middleweight or lightheavyweight...period.

[SLAKKA]

Tim Conn checks in boys!


I feel my father would easily have beaten Lamotta. Lomatta was was very tough but had no defense and easy to hit. He didn't fight the same caliber of opponent that my dad did. Apostoli, Kreiger, Yarosz, Rankins, Zale would have all beaten lamotta. My father won 11 out of 12 rounds against Zale. He would have done the Same against Lamotta. He also would have beaten Robinson. As a middleweight he was too big for him. Frank Graham, the boxing writer, also said the same. Rember Fritzie Zivic beat Lamotta and he was only a welterweight. Lamotta wouldn't lay a glove on Yarosz. My father called him "The Mater of defense" He was very under rated. He beat many great fighter including Archie Moore, LLoyd Marshall and lou Brouillard.

Take care, Tim

[PowerPuncher]

Tim Conn checks in boys!


I feel my father would easily have beaten Lamotta. Lomatta was was very tough but had no defense and easy to hit. He didn't fight the same caliber of opponent that my dad did. Apostoli, Kreiger, Yarosz, Rankins, Zale would have all beaten lamotta. My father won 11 out of 12 rounds against Zale. He would have done the Same against Lamotta. He also would have beaten Robinson. As a middleweight he was too big for him. Frank Graham, the boxing writer, also said the same. Rember Fritzie Zivic beat Lamotta and he was only a welterweight. Lamotta wouldn't lay a glove on Yarosz. My father called him "The Mater of defense" He was very under rated. He beat many great fighter including Archie Moore, LLoyd Marshall and lou Brouillard.

Take care, Tim

Wait, you're Tim, or you know Tim or you know him or foung this somewhere?

:good

[SLAKKA]

Wait, you're Tim, or you know Tim or you know him or foung this somewhere?

:good

Im Slakka, Tim is Billys oldest son. We have an email correspondence and this topic was bugging me.

[SLAKKA]

Im sending Tim an email admonishing him for not mentioning Bob Pastor.
It is said to this very day Jimmy Bivins raves RAVES! about the amazing boxing skills of Bob Pastor.

[Sardu]

Billy Conn UD Lamotta.

[burt bienstock]

Tim Conn checks in boys!


I feel my father would easily have beaten Lamotta. Lomatta was was very tough but had no defense and easy to hit. He didn't fight the same caliber of opponent that my dad did. Apostoli, Kreiger, Yarosz, Rankins, Zale would have all beaten lamotta. My father won 11 out of 12 rounds against Zale. He would have done the Same against Lamotta. He also would have beaten Robinson. As a middleweight he was too big for him. Frank Graham, the boxing writer, also said the same. Rember Fritzie Zivic beat Lamotta and he was only a welterweight. Lamotta wouldn't lay a glove on Yarosz. My father called him "The Mater of defense" He was very under rated. He beat many great fighter including Archie Moore, LLoyd Marshall and lou Brouillard.

Take care, Tim
Tim Conn, You are so right about your dad...When he was just twenty years old.a baby,Billy was thrown in with such great and more experienced middleweights as
Young Corbett-= W-L
Teddy Yarosz= W-L
Solly Krieger
Oscar Rankins
Fred Apostoli Babe Risko
Vince Dundee, etc,
Tim ,I remember that article that the great boxing writer Frank Graham wrote, describing how he would have favored Billy Conn over Ray Robinson, at middleweight..I believe Graham wrote this article in the old NY Journal American...
Billy Conn would have whipped the best Jake Lamotta, both at middleweight...I ad mired your father very much,just behind Harry Greb of course....

[janitor]

The truth about Billy Conn is that he was well on his way to building a resume like that of Ezzard Charles or Archie Moore before the war cut his career short.

His resume prior to his 22nd birthday is simply incredible.

[bodhi]

Tim Conn checks in boys!


I feel my father would easily have beaten Lamotta. Lomatta was was very tough but had no defense and easy to hit. He didn't fight the same caliber of opponent that my dad did. Apostoli, Kreiger, Yarosz, Rankins, Zale would have all beaten lamotta. My father won 11 out of 12 rounds against Zale. He would have done the Same against Lamotta. He also would have beaten Robinson. As a middleweight he was too big for him. Frank Graham, the boxing writer, also said the same. Rember Fritzie Zivic beat Lamotta and he was only a welterweight. Lamotta wouldn't lay a glove on Yarosz. My father called him "The Mater of defense" He was very under rated. He beat many great fighter including Archie Moore, LLoyd Marshall and lou Brouillard.

Take care, Tim

While I agree with this post overall, I want to mention that LaMotta had a defence and was not easy to hit. This is a myth.

[dpw417]

As far as Billy Conn and Ray Robinson at middle?...I'll go along with Red Smith. "I don't know whether you're right or not."
I'll lean towards the later...(heavier than middle? different story.)

[red cobra]

At his best, Conn outclasses LaMotta at his best.

[SuzieQ49]

Tim Conn is talking out of his arse. None of those guys he listed would have beaten a prime Jake Lamotta, including Tony Zale. Also Lamotta did have defense, in fact he was very slick on defense the way he slipped jabs with his head movement, and the way he rolled punches with his upperbody movement. I think Tim had one too many brewski's when he typed that! lol

[Boilermaker]

Tim Conn is talking out of his arse. None of those guys he listed would have beaten a prime Jake Lamotta, including Tony Zale. Also Lamotta did have defense, in fact he was very slick on defense the way he slipped jabs with his head movement, and the way he rolled punches with his upperbody movement. I think Tim had one too many brewski's when he typed that! lol

Lamotta, is, imo, one of the most overated fighters on this board. I wonder how highly he would be rated, if it wasnt for Robert Deniro. A good fighter, noone denies and very tough, but was he really as good as someone like say a Tony Zale, i dont think so.

I dont think there is any question that in open weights, Billy Conn murders him. He doesnt necessarilly knock him out, because Jake is very tough, but i do think it is the most likely scenario.

I do like the point that under the middleweight primes, billy was far less experienced. This would be a cracking fight. But i tend to think that this is a fight where the inexperienced Billy Conn rises to the occassion and beats the favoured LaMOtta. Much closer fight though, and i think that Jake does have every chance in it but i go with Conn.

[SuzieQ49]

Not only do I think Lamotta was as good as Zale, I think Jake in his prime was signifigantly better than Zale. I truly believe Zale ducked Jake Lamotta around 1946, and took on the easier option in Graziano instead, due to fear of losing to Lamotta. I am not the only one with this opinion. I am tired though, and will debate this more with you in the morning.

[bodhi]

Not only do I think Lamotta was as good as Zale, I think Jake in his prime was signifigantly better than Zale. I truly believe Zale ducked Jake Lamotta around 1946, and took on the easier option in Graziano instead, due to fear of losing to Lamotta. I am not the only one with this opinion. I am tired though, and will debate this more with you in the morning.

Hm, do you think the Zale who had the great trilogy with Graziano was prime? I think he was past it. I´d take Prime LaMotta over past it Zale without hesitation but prime for prime ... I think Zale would beat him.

[burt bienstock]

Hm, do you think the Zale who had the great trilogy with Graziano was prime? I think he was past it. I´d take Prime LaMotta over past it Zale without hesitation but prime for prime ... I think Zale would beat him.
I have seen Jake Lamotta fight..Cunning and so tough.But there is one fighter who at his best would have licked Jake Lamotta, and that was the forgotten Fred Apostoli..Aside from his fights with Ceferino Garcia, Apostoli looks tremendous on film...Very tempermental though was Apostoli...

[he grant]

Conn by clear decision ..

[SuzieQ49]

Conn by clear decision ..

you do realize this fight is taking place at 160 and not 175lb right?