Was SRL ...

[Holmes' Jab]

... the most complete, formibable Welterweight fighter ever? I say he has a good shout:

- Unreal handspeed, movement and footwork
- Very sturdy chin
- Formidable and underestimated (two-fisted) power. One of the best combination punchers in boxing history. (from any division, or any era)
- Defensively very sound
- Always a onimous threat at any stage of a fight. He could be an equally devestating fighter from the inside, or outside
- Possessed great variety, could box/slug/brawl in equal measure when the situation called for


*I actually rate SRL slightly ahead of SRR, as my #1 Welterweight. Although people will probably dismiss me as crazy I honestly think it's not that farfetched an opinion. :good



* :bolt

[My dinner with Conteh]

Very bold thread mate and one that's sure to be jumped on by Duodenum, Miss Rooster and the Street Lethal quadruplets. :good

[Luigi1985]

He´s surely one of the best. Napoles, one of the most underrated fighters at this weight IMO, would be his final candidate and rival for this "title"...

[ChrisPontius]

He was incredible. Sick talent, always came in great shape, and to me he's a one of the most complete fighters. What's his weakness? The only thing i can think of was fighting the wrong fight against Duran in the first fight. Even there, he held his own and set things right in the rematch, showing that contrary to Duran, he could take it as well as dish it out.

[Holmes' Jab]

Very bold thread mate and one that's sure to be jumped on by Duodenum, Miss Rooster and the Street Lethal quadruplets. :good

... tell me about it, and that's prob just a few of the (many) redrooster alter-egos. :yep

I think a cut n' paste type reply can be expected depicting logic defying hate for Leonard, lacking any sort of objectivity ... complete with a round-by-round analysis of the fight vs Hagler fight and how Marv won 117-111. :nut :verysad

[Holmes' Jab]

'Ere we go ... :roll:

[Nemesis]

... the most complete, formibable Welterweight fighter ever? I say he has a good shout:

- Unreal handspeed, movement and footwork
- Very sturdy chin
- Formidable and underestimated (two-fisted) power. One of the best combination punchers in boxing history. (from any division, or any era)
- Defensively very sound
- Always a onimous threat at any stage of a fight. He could be an equally devestating fighter from the inside, or outside
- Possessed great variety, could box/slug/brawl in equal measure when the situation called for


*I actually rate SRL slightly ahead of SRR, as my #1 Welterweight. Although people will probably dismiss me as crazy I honestly think it's not that farfetched an opinion. :good



* :bolt

My only concern HJ, is that he never fought a deep enough level of opposition. Dont get me wrong Hearns, Duran & Benitez are excellent, I just feel if he'd have beaten Curry, Palomino & Cuevas (or even Pryor) then his resume would look a lot better at WW.

How'd you see a potential SRL vs SRR matchup transpiring?

[Holmes' Jab]

Ray's finest wins:

1. Duran rematch (you'd have been dubbed a lunatic, had you suggested Leonard would achieve revenge in the fashion which he did)
2. Hearns
3. Benitez
4. Hagler

[JohnThomas1]

He was long considered the most complete boxer in the world, and this is in the time of Gomez, Hagler, Sanchez, Hearns, Holmes, Arguello, Spinks, Benitez, Pryor et al. I am surprised by how many in here (including good scribes) don't realise just how hard he hit at 147. He had it all there. Very solid power, sensational speed, toughness, brilliant tactical awareness and adaption, great stamina. Tho he had his breaks and spells i think he was very likely the best fighter of his era.

[Nemesis]

Leonard's resume at 147...

Roberto Duran (1-1)
Hearns (1-0)
Benitez (1-0)
Finch (1-0)
Mayweather snr (1-0)
Shields (1-0)
Ranzany (1-0)
Dave 'boy' Green (1-0)

Robinson's resume at 147...

Fusari (1-0)
Kid Gavilan (2-0)
Jackie Wilson (2-0)
Jimmie Doyle (1-0)
Tommy Bell (2-0)
Georgie Abrams (1-0)
Sammy Angott (3-0)
Armstrong (1-0)
Lamotta (2-1)
Servo (2-0)
Zivic (2-0)
Shapiro (1-0)

Greater depth to Robinson's resume but more notable wins on Leonard's

[Nemesis]

Ray's finest wins:

1. Duran rematch (you'd have been dubbed a lunatic, had you suggested Leonard would achieve revenge in the fashion which he did)
2. Hearns
3. Benitez
4. Hagler

Scrap the Hagler win, were talking about his welterweight days

[achillesthegreat]

I too think he is arguably the best 147 pounder in history. His record speaks for itself.

Leonard was a boxer-puncher, he could box or brawl. He knew what he needed to do in big fights. He had old school mentality with the lesser fights. He didn't mind getting stuck in to get the ko and entertain.

[Holmes' Jab]

Scrap the Hagler win, were talking about his welterweight days

I was talking career wins. Replace Hagler with Green or Finch then.

[Sweet Science]

... the most complete, formibable Welterweight fighter ever? I say he has a good shout:

- Unreal handspeed, movement and footwork
- Very sturdy chin
- Formidable and underestimated (two-fisted) power. One of the best combination punchers in boxing history. (from any division, or any era)
- Defensively very sound
- Always a onimous threat at any stage of a fight. He could be an equally devestating fighter from the inside, or outside
- Possessed great variety, could box/slug/brawl in equal measure when the situation called for


*I actually rate SRL slightly ahead of SRR, as my #1 Welterweight. Although people will probably dismiss me as crazy I honestly think it's not that farfetched an opinion. :good



* :bolt

I don't have a big problem with your view of SRL as the most complete and formidable WW ever. Your points are very valid. However, I still have SRR and Armstrong just above Leonard. A lot of people hate Leonard for reasons outside of his boxing ability.

[JohnThomas1]

Personally i can't have Leonard ahead of SRR at 147. I'll accept him as second quite freely tho.

[Sonny Carson]

I agree with you that he was the most complete WW ever. SRR had some defence issues but made up for it with more power and an even more impressive offense. All around Leonard was the most complete but i still rank SRR, Griffith and Armstrong ahead of him and Napoles on par i think.
I hear SRR was better defensively as a welterweight. We don't have enough footage though to evaluate.

[Street Lethal]

The greatest Welterweight ever doesn't lose 10 or 11 rounds to a former Lightweight.
This just about sums it up for me, but we must add how confused Leonard looked against Hearns. A complete welterweight does not lose 10 of the first 12 rounds against Hearns. Ray Robinson was far more complete, as was Gavilan. Hell, speaking of the former lightweight, Duran was a more complete welterweight than Leonard. I am not sure why some people here get so exciting when Leonard's name is mentioned, but it obviously has to do with something other than his record and what you can see on tape. Maybe it's the pretty smile on a boyish face.

[Street Lethal]

I don't see how you can rank Leonard over Robinson, Gavilan, Napoles, Griffith, Whitaker, Mayweather, and Armstrong.

[Robbi]

Whitaker? I´ma a big PW fan but i can´t see how Whitaker can be ranked in front of Leonard.

Leonard ranks ahead of Whitaker at 147lbs. He had much better wins against higher calibre opponents. Whitaker was a damn fine welterweight, and held the WBC title for four years. However, Chavez and McGirt x2 doesn't quite hold up to Leonard's biggest accomplishments. Whitaker's best days were two divisions south. lightweight.

Whitaker would be doing well very to appear at the bottom half of anyones top 10 greatest welterweights.

[Nemesis]

:hi: redrooster

nah, rooster is a stand alone poster IMO, it all started with the legendary Revolver, who morphed into Megaman and sometimes into Homicide Hank

Revolver was the greatest alias, anyone remember the paradigm shift (ca. 1960)

[Drew101]

Delete.

[McGrain]

Revolver was the greatest alias, anyone remember the paradigm shift (ca. 1960)

I missed out on all of that but i've heard CT speak about it.

I can't put SRL above SRR, no way.

The only area I feel SRL excels Robinson is elusiveness - Robinson is bound to be hit a bit more if he spends more time in the dangerzone. It's fair to put him in the second clutch. I personally think you could spend all day arguing about who the second best WW, but SRL would be in amongst them for sure.

[JohnThomas1]

I missed out on all of that but i've heard CT speak about it.

I can't put SRL above SRR, no way.

The only area I feel SRL excels Robinson is elusiveness - Robinson is bound to be hit a bit more if he spends more time in the dangerzone. It's fair to put him in the second clutch. I personally think you could spend all day arguing about who the second best WW, but SRL would be in amongst them for sure.

I couldn't agree more.

[Nemesis]

Delete.
why?

[Nemesis]

I missed out on all of that but i've heard CT speak about it.

I can't put SRL above SRR, no way.

The only area I feel SRL excels Robinson is elusiveness - Robinson is bound to be hit a bit more if he spends more time in the dangerzone. It's fair to put him in the second clutch. I personally think you could spend all day arguing about who the second best WW, but SRL would be in amongst them for sure.
yeah, good point, people point out Robinson' defensive frailties, but their only highlighted because he was willing to take more chances. I try to find a particular area that Leonard is greater at and always come back to the idea that Robinson had just that little bit more, maybe i am a tad biased

[Arminius]

A couple points:

He was beat by an out of prime (although one of the all time best), lightweight.

He was being beaten by Hearns and the stoppage that saved him is very questionable.

He would not grant Duran a rematch fearing the faded Duran might turn around as he did for a short time 2 years later.

He would not give Hearns a rematch.

Of course he gave them rematches when they were very faded.

He was afraid to figh Aaron Pryor.

He decided to fight Hagler as he watched an old Duran beating him after 12 rounds. Then demanded 12 rounds (rather than the then-standard 15) and a larger ring.

Probably top ten but not the best.

[C. M. Clay II]

The greatest Welterweight ever doesn't lose 10 or 11 rounds to a former Lightweight.

And then made him quit in the rematch.:yep

[Nemesis]

A couple points:

He was beat by an out of prime (although one of the all time best), lightweight.

He was being beaten by Hearns and the stoppage that saved him is very questionable.

He would not grant Duran a rematch fearing the faded Duran might turn around as he did for a short time 2 years later.

He would not give Hearns a rematch.

Of course he gave them rematches when they were very faded.

He was afraid to figh Aaron Pryor.

He decided to fight Hagler as he watched an old Duran beating him after 12 rounds. Then demanded 12 rounds (rather than the then-standard 15) and a larger ring.

Probably top ten but not the best.

he did grant Duran a rematch
Leonard TKO8 :deal

[Arminius]

he did grant Duran a rematch
Leonard TKO8 :deal

Duran gave him a rematch.

[Street Lethal]

And then made him quit in the rematch.:yep
When did that happen? I don't remember that.

[Street Lethal]

A couple points:

He was beat by an out of prime (although one of the all time best), lightweight.

He was being beaten by Hearns and the stoppage that saved him is very questionable.

He would not grant Duran a rematch fearing the faded Duran might turn around as he did for a short time 2 years later.

He would not give Hearns a rematch.

Of course he gave them rematches when they were very faded.

He was afraid to figh Aaron Pryor.

He decided to fight Hagler as he watched an old Duran beating him after 12 rounds. Then demanded 12 rounds (rather than the then-standard 15) and a larger ring.

Probably top ten but not the best.
All good points.

[SgrRyLeonard]

How can any objective, sane person think Mayweather deserves to even be mentioned even in the same sentence as Leonard as far as WELTERWEIGHT achievements go?! Sharmba Mitchell, Carlos Baldomir, and Zab Judah are the only fights he's had at welterweight and none of them are even close to being all time greats. Heck, even the ordinary opponents Leonards had at welterweight could beat the welterweight Mitchell and Baldomir, and any one of Leonard's great opponents could make Zab their bitch. Going strictly by accomplishments at Welterweight ,Mayweather is not even in the discussion.

[Street Lethal]

:hi: redrooster
You don't score any points against my argument by using distraction, tobkhan. Just because Red Rooster is right about Leonard (even if he does tend to exaggerate Leonard's faults) doesn't make me him.

[Street Lethal]

Whitaker? I´ma a big PW fan but i can´t see how Whitaker can be ranked in front of Leonard.
Are you kidding me? Whitaker posted 8 title defenses as world welterweight champion. Among his victims were Buddy McGirt and Julio Cesar Chavez. He defeated de la Hoya, too, but was robbed. That would have been his 9th successful defense.

Let's compare. Leonard only posted 4 successful title defenses, and lost his title to the former lightweight champion after his first defense! His win over Hearns was made possible by a horrible stoppage, a fight in which he was otherwise getting his ass kicked.

Compare the records and Whitaker comes out way in front of Ray Leonard. Watch the tapes and you can see Whitaker was a class above Leonard.

I don't see how anybody who studies their respective careers could come to the conclusion that Ray Leonard was better. It's simply not a defensible position.

That people would put Leonard above Whitaker shows you that Leonard is one of the most overrated fighters ever.

[redrooster]

A couple points:

He was beat by an out of prime (although one of the all time best), lightweight.

He was being beaten by Hearns and the stoppage that saved him is very questionable.

He would not grant Duran a rematch fearing the faded Duran might turn around as he did for a short time 2 years later.

He would not give Hearns a rematch.

Of course he gave them rematches when they were very faded.

He was afraid to figh Aaron Pryor.

He decided to fight Hagler as he watched an old Duran beating him after 12 rounds. Then demanded 12 rounds (rather than the then-standard 15) and a larger ring.

Probably top ten but not the best.

those are points his fans would rather not have you bring up.

As much as I like Ray Leonard, I still can't forget the way he lost all those rounds to Hearns, not to mention Norris which, makes me question whether he isn't being overrated in those departments mentioned. Not to mention he never really put Tommy away-Tommy, the anemic welterweight in the 14th round. His inability to close in on Tommy was dismal.

I expect more from tip-top fighters.

I'll go along with Lethal in saying that Whitaker is a much better replacement though still below Robinson.

[Street Lethal]

The amazing thing about Whitaker is that he had a whole career at lightweight before moving up. For Leonard to have accomplished anything like Whitaker, he would have had to dominate the welterweight division - which he didn't - and then move up to middleweight and post eight successful title defenses there! Leonard's accomplishments are quite skinny in comparison to Whitaker's.

But I agree with Red Rooster that Whitaker was not as great a welterweight as Robinson was. This shows you how so far superior Robinson was to Leonard. Can any of you imagine a prime Robinson losing to a former lightweight champion, let alone being overwhelmed by him? (Pick any of the lightweights you like.) I guess you can imagine it, but you know that, outside of luck, it's an improbability.

[Street Lethal]

anyone remember the paradigm shift (ca. 1960)
What is this?

[Robbi]

He defeated de la Hoya, too, but was robbed. That would have been his 9th successful defense.

Whitaker wasn't robbed against De La Hoya. Well certainly not under my own definition of robbery, a word which is used far too often when it comes to controversial decisions.

To use the word "robbery" when it comes to a decision that should have gone the other way your looking at the following. When a fighter wins rounds decisively, and also wins the vast majority of rounds. I'll be fair with my judgement here, 8 rounds or more. Not the case when it comes to viewing Whitaker v De La Hoya.

Whitaker didn't clearly beat De La Hoya beyond dispute. Many close rounds, and a judges worst nightmare full stop.

Ive viewed many fights over the years which were bad decisions, but never came to the conclusion to use the word "robbery" when airing my disagreement.

[Street Lethal]

Whitaker took de la Hoya to school. I think he even knocked him down!

When a man wins a fight, but the judges give the decision to the loser, or call it a draw, that is a robbery. Three robberies that stand out in recent times: Whitaker-Ramirez I, Whitaker-Chavez, and Whitaker-de la Hoya. (The other two that come immediately to mind are Hagler-Leonard and Hearns-Leonard II.)

Let's face facts. The people who control boxing didn't like Whitaker. They thought he stunk up the joint. Sure, those who understand the finer points of the sport loved Pete, but you can't make bucks off the aficionado. You need a fighter with popular appeal, such as de la Hoya and Leonard, fighters the media want to get behind. Golden Boys. You know what I'm talking about.

The reason Leonard is seen by the majority of people as better than Whitaker is because Leonard had popular appeal and Whitaker didn't. People go with names and smiles. I don't think it is any secret that the majority is easily deceived. They especially get distracted by commercial appeal.

Like I said before, Whitaker was robbed thrice and they all went against him. Robberies where Leonard was involved all went FOR him. That tells the story right there. (This is why you can't trust records. You have to see the fights.)

[brooklyn1550]

Although there is a lack of footage of his days as a welterweight, I would have to put Sugar Ray Robinson ahead of Sugar Ray Leonard. From all accounts, he was much better at 147 than he was at 160 - and that is a scary thought.

[Dempsey1238]

Ross head and shoulders above SRL.

[mochabuzz]

SRR is hands down the greatest WW in history...
As for SRL.. DLH would give him a great fight @ Welterweight!

[My dinner with Conteh]

He was being beaten by Hearns and the stoppage that saved him is very questionable[quote=Arminius]

It isn't that questionable. Emmanuel Steward for one didn't question it. He was certainly closer to the action than you ever were. :good


[quote=Arminius]He would not grant Duran a rematch fearing the faded Duran might turn around as he did for a short time 2 years later.[quote=Arminius]

But he didn't fear that Duran might beat him again in November 1980. People who quit like girls need to convince the public they're not total shithouses first. You can't just collect 8.5 mill, walk off and then say "Hey, i'm ok now give me another few million and we'll fight again." I'm sure boxing would trhive as a sport if every big fight ended with some cunt saying "Nah, don't feel up to it tonight. Cheerio, folks. See you three months, next Thursday".



[quote=Arminius]He decided to fight Hagler as he watched an old Duran beating him after 12 rounds. Then demanded 12 rounds (rather than the then-standard 15) and a larger ring.


Hagler also fought the 12 round limit against Hearns and Mugabi, so no change there. Still, Hagler as champ could have simply said "No, fuck off peanut head". Looks like Ray could do Jedi mind tricks too. :D

[My dinner with Conteh]

When did that happen? I don't remember that.


You were there weren't you? Watching the fight with Shep Peasants.

[Luigi1985]

Leonard was awesome but to me there is one guy who was UNBEATABLE at welter. Walker Smith, aka. Sugar Ray Robinson. Everything Leonard could do - SRR could do just a tad better. And SRR had an ATG chin.


Very understandable. How do you rate Napoles at 147 lbs? IMO clearly one of the best ever at this weight...

[My dinner with Conteh]

I rate Napoles 3rd behind Robninson and Leonard. There could be a good case for making him #2. He was better than Griffith I'd say.

[Luigi1985]

I rate Napoles 3rd behind Robninson and Leonard. There could be a good case for making him #2. He was better than Griffith I'd say.


Yeah, you know, I mean beside his cut-problems, he was so complete, on his best even legends like, let´s say SRR would have a hard time against him... agreed, Griffith could been terrific at one fight, but the other fight he was just good, he was too inconsistent...

[Street Lethal]

You were there weren't you? Watching the fight with Shep Peasants.
I've seen the fight. Leonard didn't make Duran quit. Thst's ridiculous.

Who the fuck is Shep Peasants? That sounds like a totally made up name. Are you being a jerk again?

[My dinner with Conteh]

Yeah, you know, I mean beside his cut-problems, he was so complete, on his best even legends like, let´s say SRR would have a hard time against him... agreed, Griffith could been terrific at one fight, but the other fight he was just good, he was too inconsistent...


What people forget (or don't realise) is that the fight trade regarded Napoles as the best pound-for-pound fighter in boxinf. Certainly Boxing News had him 1st from 1969-1974. That's some going in an era that featured Ali, Monzon and Duran. The Griffith performance is most impressive, in terms of the margin of victory. NO ONE beats Griffith that comfortably.

[Street Lethal]

It isn't that questionable. Emmanuel Steward for one didn't question it.
Why does it matter what Steward thought about the stoppage? The guy you are arguing with saw the fight and, like many other people, concludes that is was a bullshit stoppage. He's right and Steward is wrong.

If Steward thought the fight should have been stopped, then why didn't he stop it? If a good trainer thinks his man is out of it, he stops the fight. Steward didn't. It is only after the stoppage that he says it was a good stoppage.

The fight was horribly refereed. The referee couldn't even decide what constituted a knockdown.

[Luigi1985]

What people forget (or don't realise) is that the fight trade regarded Napoles as the best pound-for-pound fighter in boxinf. Certainly Boxing News had him 1st from 1969-1974. That's some going in an era that featured Ali, Monzon and Duran. The Griffith performance is most impressive, in terms of the margin of victory. NO ONE beats Griffith that comfortably.


Exactly, the Griffith- fight was pretty impessive!

[My dinner with Conteh]

I've seen the fight. Leonard didn't make Duran quit. Thst's ridiculous.

Who the fuck is Shep Peasants? That sounds like a totally made up name. Are you being a jerk again?


Duran still quit and that's that.


ps. Shep Peasants was the man that cooked Duran's steak that afternoon...I think he spiked it myself. Roberto then washed it down with a few slugs of this:


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[My dinner with Conteh]

Why does it matter what Steward thought about the stoppage? The guy you are arguing with saw the fight and, like many other people, concludes that is was a bullshit stoppage. He's right and Steward is wrong.


I'm not arguing I'm just p[uzzled why people who can't face the fact that Tommy was out on his feet, that's what happened. If he was so fine he should have punched back instead of looking like a big soft lemon.

[werety]

I honestly don't think leonard was as complet offensively as he is made out to be. People always seem to want to mention how leonard could brawl as well as box. I dont see how this is true as I saw leonard try to brawl once against duran and get beaten pretty clearly. Many say leonard fought duran's fight and this is true, but i believe that if someone like robinson fought duran, a lightweight, he would beat him wether he decided to box or brawl. Furthermore, the fight where leonard needed to brawl the most to win, against hearns, he was extemely reluctant to. He was able to hurt hearns in the sixth and still couldnt put him away. Even worse, for three rounds he was able to pressure and punch hearns to take the rounds then he just seemed to stop again and continued to be outboxed by hearns until the twelfth where the weight drained hearns's stamina gave out. As good as leonard is, i think his ability to brawl is highly overrated and this brings down his completeness in my book.

[My dinner with Conteh]

It's funny how Hearns stamina 'gave out' just as Leonard launched his attempt at ending the fight. :lol:

[My dinner with Conteh]

Randy Shields, who'd fought both fighters and beat Leonard as an amateur, wrote a preview for KO in 1981. Despite Leonard looking pretty poor against him he predicted a Leonard TKO..."late in the fact because Tommy's stamina is suspect". He also suggested Leonard should stay on the outside and circle before making a late surge. Seems he was spot on. :good

[Luigi1985]

How about a terrific junior welterweight named Bruno Arcari from Latina, Italy. Do you know this guy Luigi? Awesome record of 69 wins in 72 bouts with 39 knockouts. Beat Jorgen Hansen in Copenhagen, Denmark for WBC lightweight title by KO 5 in 1973. Defeated Harold Weston, Gaeton Hart and drew with Rocco Mattioli in 1976 in Milan. I know I went off topic but this guy was good!

Yeah, he was very good, but in the USA he´s pretty unknown/ underrated. He fought in his 10th pro-fight the former world-champion, the very good Joe Brown, beat good fighters like Hansen, Roque, Henrique, Adigue, etc., he drew later in his career when he was shot against the LMW Mattioli, where I heard that Arcari should have won slightly. His only defeats were 2 cut- stoppages early in his career against a journeyman and Consolati (Arcari beat Consolati a few months later for the Italian Light Welterweight Title). He had an iron-chin, very good one-punch- power, big heart, good stamina, and he was a terrific body- puncher. The main problem was, that he almost only fought in Italy, it would have been great if he had fought Locche in Argentina or so, but their managment couldn´t organize a fight (Locche didn´t want to come to Italy, and Arcari later said that the money he would have become was ridiculous), a fight between these 2 would have told us more about them...

[My dinner with Conteh]

(Locche didn´t want to come to Italy, and Arcari later said that the money he would have become was ridiculous), a fight between these 2 would have told us more about them...


Can you blame him? Italy was hardly regarded as a bastion of fair play in boxing.

[Luigi1985]

Can you blame him? Italy was hardly regarded as a bastion of fair play in boxing.

I know that, I don´t contest that. But the same is with Argentina, look, just for example, Ortiz and Laguna were both robbed against Nicolino, Locche had 15 D´s ca, he was very protected...

[My dinner with Conteh]

I know that, I don´t contest that. But the same is with Argentina, look, just for example, Ortiz and Laguna were both robbed against Nicolino, Locche had 15 D´s ca, he was very protected...


Yes of course. Thats' why fights like that don't come off. In a close one (which it would be) the home guy gets the nod. But, although the two fights you alluded to, are supposedly controversial, a draw in the other guy's country doesn't mean you've automatically won. Argentina was rife with drwan verdicts throughout the sixties. Tito Lectoure, like Don King later, enjoyed an even verdict on his shows.

[Luigi1985]

Yes of course. Thats' why fights like that don't come off. In a close one (which it would be) the home guy gets the nod. But, although the two fights you alluded to, are supposedly controversial, a draw in the other guy's country doesn't mean you've automatically won. Argentina was rife with drwan verdicts throughout the sixties. Tito Lectoure, like Don King later, enjoyed an even verdict on his shows.


I don´t know now from where I have that, but I´m sure, that I read an article from where I knew that. I don´t look at a fighter´s record and say "Ah, 2 SD´s in his hometown, 1 draw = 2 robberies and 1 big robbery...", because sometimes it is inverse (latest example that I spontaneous remember is the Chagaev- Ruiz- fight, Chagaev won with 3 or 4 rounds, and later when the referee annunciated the SD, I was really "perplex", but like I wrote, perhaps I search in the near future something about that, Laguna and Ortiz should have won their fights with Locche, Nicolino was just too passive to win...

[JohnThomas1]

Duran still quit and that's that.


ps. Shep Peasants was the man that cooked Duran's steak that afternoon...I think he spiked it myself. Roberto then washed it down with a few slugs of this:


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Rumour has it the product explodes with a dominant dose of sugar as well (as milk)

:lol:

[Robbi]

Whitaker took de la Hoya to school. I think he even knocked him down

Whitaker never took De La Hoya to school, far from it. And the knockdown was as good as a slip. Action replays between rounds showed that De La Hoya was clearly losing his balance and on his way down before Whitaker's punch inside landed. But it was correctly scored a knockdown as the punch was part of the reason he went down. De La Hoya was up immediately shaking his head in disbelief as he knew he was down a point.

I'd be embarassed to even mention such a knockdown as part of a schooling arguement.

Close fight, no robbery.

[Robbi]

I'm not arguing I'm just p[uzzled why people who can't face the fact that Tommy was out on his feet, that's what happened. If he was so fine he should have punched back instead of looking like a big soft lemon.

Agreed. Hearns wasn't coming back with anything, and had been seriously wobbled the round before. Thats the difference between Leonard-Hearns and De La Hoya-Quartey.

After De La Hoya knocked Quartey down at the start of the 12th, he followed up the knockdown with a serious assualt on Quartey against the ropes. Referee Mitch Halpern kept his eye on the action, and looked to be ready to jump in and stop the fight. But he knew Quartey had his senses about him, and was firing back. It was a very wise piece of refereeing, as many others would have been fooled by De La Hoya's volume of punches and halted proceedings. Lets not forget, prior to the assualt on the ropes Quartey was knocked down seconds before. Which would give a referee a stronger case to stop the fight.

Halpern was a great referee, and it showed during the 12th round of De La Hoya-Quartey.

[redrooster]

Yeah, you know, I mean beside his cut-problems, he was so complete, on his best even legends like, let´s say SRR would have a hard time against him... agreed, Griffith could been terrific at one fight, but the other fight he was just good, he was too inconsistent...

you're ignorant. How can a fighter be inconsistent with 13 defenses-successful defenses compared with leonard's 4? Explain that to us please.

[young griffo]

you're ignorant. How can a fighter be inconsistent with 13 defenses-successful defenses compared with leonard's 4? Explain that to us please.
I think he's referring to the fact that Griffith had a propensity to drop the odd fight to guys like Paret,Rodriguez,and struggle against a Gasper Ortega even though he was clearly a better fighter than all three.

Not to mention his non-title fight losses to Hurricane Carter,Don Fullmer or Manual Gonzalez which basically shows that whilst he was an excellent fighter for whatever reason he wasn't always at his best against fighters he should be favoured to beat.

Hence Luigi saying he was inconsistent.

Pretty obvious I would of thought.

[JohnThomas1]

I think he's referring to the fact that Griffith had a propensity to drop the odd fight to guys like Paret,Rodriguez,and struggle against a Gasper Ortega even though he was clearly a better fighter than all three.

Not to mention his non-title fight losses to Hurricane Carter,Don Fullmer or Manual Gonzalez which basically shows that whilst he was an excellent fighter for whatever reason he wasn't always at his best against fighters he should be favoured to beat.

Hence Luigi saying he was inconsistent.

Pretty obvious I would of thought.

Yeah but common sense goes out the pen when the name SRL and Rooster interact.

[Drew101]

Ross head and shoulders above SRL.

Ross was very, very good in most aspects of the game- and great in quite a few, but he wasn't a big puncher. He could score the occasional knockdown with one well-timed shot, or get an occasional stoppage through accumulation, but he wasn't a hitter, by any stretch of the imagination.

Leonard, on the other hand, could hit hard, when so inclined (witness what he did to Ranzany, Price, Green, et al), plus, his technique, for the most part, was just as good as Ross', both on offense and on defense.

[ChrisPontius]

(latest example that I spontaneous remember is the Chagaev- Ruiz- fight, Chagaev won with 3 or 4 rounds, and later when the referee annunciated the SD, I was really "perplex"

That was a horrible score indeed, but i would like to point out that Chagaev seemed more to be the "hometown" fighter than Ruiz. The crowd cheered at Chagaev's punches, not Ruiz'. Maybe that one judge still had a little 'King' in him.

[Moe Faux]

I think Tommy had stamina issues. He'd been icing virtually everyone up until that point and Leonard was a good 15-round fighter. Tommy's inexperience (together with Leonard's storming finish) was the main factor.

[SgrRyLeonard]

Why does it matter what Steward thought about the stoppage? The guy you are arguing with saw the fight and, like many other people, concludes that is was a bullshit stoppage. He's right and Steward is wrong.

If Steward thought the fight should have been stopped, then why didn't he stop it? If a good trainer thinks his man is out of it, he stops the fight. Steward didn't. It is only after the stoppage that he says it was a good stoppage.

The fight was horribly refereed. The referee couldn't even decide what constituted a knockdown.

So some nobody fan that sometimes watches boxing from a distance is right while Emmanuel Steward who has made a living for the past several decades actually being involved in the sport and working with several Hall of Famers and World Class fighters is wrong? How can you be this biased and expect anyone to take you seriously in any discussion on Sugar Ray Leonard?

[My dinner with Conteh]

How can you be this biased and expect anyone to take you seriously in any discussion on Sugar Ray Leonard?


No one does. That's why he has multiple identities.

[Street Lethal]

So some nobody fan that sometimes watches boxing from a distance is right while Emmanuel Steward who has made a living for the past several decades actually being involved in the sport and working with several Hall of Famers and World Class fighters is wrong?
If you don't want to have your own opinions then don't have them. Repeat whatever Emmanuel Steward says. Be a mindless drone. I don't care. We all know that you agree with Steward because you like Leonard. You are appealing to an authority figure to back you up because you are a Leonard fan. In the end, you still picked an opinion to agree with. I don't do that. I form my OWN opinion.

[Street Lethal]

No one does. That's why he has multiple identities.
I just have one identity.

You, on the other hand, appear to have several. Whenever Ray Leonard is criticized, several posters with identical positions quickly show up to defend Leonard. I'm new here, but I doubt others haven't come to the same conclusion.

PM me if you know the inside stuff on this clown. I'm up for gossip.

[Luigi1985]

That was a horrible score indeed, but i would like to point out that Chagaev seemed more to be the "hometown" fighter than Ruiz. The crowd cheered at Chagaev's punches, not Ruiz'. Maybe that one judge still had a little 'King' in him.


:yep

[Luigi1985]

you're ignorant. How can a fighter be inconsistent with 13 defenses-successful defenses compared with leonard's 4? Explain that to us please.


I´m ignorant? But why? Griffith was great, I have friends who rate him as their 1st WW ever. He was surely great, no doubt, not only at 147 lbs. I meant with inconsistent, that he lost also during his prime sometimes (Rodriguez, Moyer, Kid Paret), Napoles or SRL for example were always great, they never struggled with kind of fighters like Emile sometimes did (although he was clearly better)...

[Luigi1985]

I think he's referring to the fact that Griffith had a propensity to drop the odd fight to guys like Paret,Rodriguez,and struggle against a Gasper Ortega even though he was clearly a better fighter than all three.

Not to mention his non-title fight losses to Hurricane Carter,Don Fullmer or Manual Gonzalez which basically shows that whilst he was an excellent fighter for whatever reason he wasn't always at his best against fighters he should be favoured to beat.

Hence Luigi saying he was inconsistent.

Pretty obvious I would of thought.


Yeah, that´s exactly how I meant it! :good

[Street Lethal]

Yeah but common sense goes out the pen when the name SRL and Rooster interact.
That sounds like something My Dinner With Conteh would say.

[Street Lethal]

I'm not arguing I'm just p[uzzled why people who can't face the fact that Tommy was out on his feet, that's what happened. If he was so fine he should have punched back instead of looking like a big soft lemon.
You obviously have not seen the fight or you are blind. He was not out on his feet. He was punching back. Everybody who watches the fight can see that.

You are not a serious poster, dude. No way. You are actually tyring to pull off a con job here where something that is obvious to anybody with seeing eyes is not what it is. Your posts are ridiculous.

Or are you so deep into Leonard worship that you actually see things that aren't there?

[SgrRyLeonard]

If you don't want to have your own opinions then don't have them. Repeat whatever Emmanuel Steward says. Be a mindless drone. I don't care. We all know that you agree with Steward because you like Leonard. You are appealing to an authority figure to back you up because you are a Leonard fan. In the end, you still picked an opinion to agree with. I don't do that. I form my OWN opinion.

And you disagree with the stoppage because you don't like Leonard. Same thing. Funny how only the people who don't like Leonard ever form their OWN opinions, isn't it?

[brownpimp88]

I´m ignorant? But why? Griffith was great, I have friends who rate him as their 1st WW ever. He was surely great, no doubt, not only at 147 lbs. I meant with inconsistent, that he lost also during his prime sometimes (Rodriguez, Moyer, Kid Paret), Napoles or SRL for example were always great, they never struggled with kind of fighters like Emile sometimes did (although he was clearly better)...
yeah but napoles lost to backus and stracey?

[Street Lethal]

And you disagree with the stoppage because you don't like Leonard. Same thing. Funny how only the people who don't like Leonard ever form their OWN opinions, isn't it?
Actually it's not funny at all but very telling how people who criticize Leonard form their own opinions but people who don't just repeat the conventional wisdom on Leonard. Besides, I don't think I ever said I don't like Leonard. I said I think he's overrated. Those are two different things. But that's beside the point, because any remotely objective observer can plainly see that Hearns wasn't out of it, or even hurt, for that matter (he was tired), and was punching back. Anybody who is trying to be objective can also see that the referee didn't know what he was doing. The 13th round was a disaster in terms of proper officiating.

You guys (or just guy, I suspect) have turned this into a weird debate because you are taking what is plain fact and pretending like it looks like something else. Obviously you are biased because you see something that is not actually there. It's like trying to talk to a person who claims to have been abducted by aliens or who is hallucinating. Very odd.

[robert ungurean]

Hes at the very top of my list.

[JohnThomas1]

That sounds like something My Dinner With Conteh would say.

If SRL was efficient at boxing as you are with anewing and changing id's Robinson would be two levels below at #2.

[My dinner with Conteh]

PM me if you know the inside stuff on this clown. I'm up for gossip.



He's great isn't he. :lol:

[My dinner with Conteh]

You obviously have not seen the fight or you are blind. He was not out on his feet. He was punching back. Everybody who watches the fight can see that.

You are not a serious poster, dude. No way. You are actually tyring to pull off a con job here where something that is obvious to anybody with seeing eyes is not what it is. Your posts are ridiculous.

Or are you so deep into Leonard worship that you actually see things that aren't there?


I don't give a toss about Leonard, I find him an arrogant, boring, smug, overbearing cunt. However, you don't like him so that's enough for me to adopt him. :D

[baddest]

Na, personally I think Napoles & Robinson were more complete than him.

[Clinton]

I fucking hate his guts,but Leonard's the best welter I've seen in my lifetime.As far as his being better than Robinson at welter?Let's just say if I were to make a wager,I'd bet on Robinson.

[red cobra]

I'm not the biggest SRL fan, but he sure was the stuff for real...but I'll always think that Mantequilla Naploes was the best...but I AM a huge Napoles fan so I may be a bit prejudiced. Then there's also SRR to bring onto the equation.