Rocky Marciano or Jack Johnson who was the greater fighter?

[cotto20]

Well??????????????????

[janitor]

I would be minded to say Johnson based on his depth and longevity.

You could argue it either way though.

[McGrain]

Johnson by a shade.

[JudgeDredd]

Johnson narrowly because he was more versatile

[PetethePrince]

I'm not too high on Johnson's comp. But the man had skills. H2H I think I'd favor Rocky though.

[essexboy]

I have Johnson ahead of Marciano all-time heavyweights. Not by much though.

[Ste Hawkins]

You really think Marciano could do what Langford couldn't do? Johnson in his prime could go for 30 rounds without getting hit clean. Marciano had the heart of a lion and had warrior strength but Johnson is an ATG and shades it.

[Bokaj]

It would probably be Johnson. I think it would be fait to say that he has the far higher number of wins against would could be considered top 10 ranked opponents. He also has more losses and draws than Rocky, of course, and a worse title reign (if you exclude the "coloured" title reign).
Defintely not a give, but I'll go with Johnson.

Would be very interesting to see a fight between the two, since Johnson would in some ways be considered a tough brawler as well if he was active in Marciano's days. My money would be on Rocky, though.

[SuzieQ49]

Depends. Do you favor Quantity or Quality?

If you favor Quality, Rocks resume is the clear choice

If you favor Quantity, Johnson is the clear choice


I will make one point: Rocky cleaned out his era and ducked nobody. The same cannot be said of Johnson.

[djanders]

I favor Johnson in this matchup, but not by much!

[Mendoza]

I suppose the question here was who was the greater fighter, not who would win in a fantasy match up.

As a greater fighter its Rocky by a mile. Rocky showed guts, and pretty much gave all the top ranked contenders title shots. Johnson quit, low blowed DQ'd himself once after getting rocked in the first round by an in-experienced Jeanette, quit in a title fight with an arm injury vs a journeyman, and has a laundry list of excuses as to why he did not look so good.

[Muchmoore]

Rocky was disqualified for kicking a fighter in the nuts in the am's when he was losing.

And before someone says it's the amateurs, boxing was different in the early 1900's from now. You didn't have the internet with everyone knowing about "quit jobs" and you fought much more often in much harder circumstances.

[Mendoza]

Rocky was disqualified for kicking a fighter in the nuts in the am's when he was losing.

And before someone says it's the amateurs, boxing was different in the early 1900's from now. You didn't have the internet with everyone knowing about "quit jobs" and you fought much more often in much harder circumstances.

In terms of toughness, intangibles and the wiliness to fight, its Marciano via landslide. The amateur fight means little. Sources vary. Some say Rocky kicked his opponent in the stomach.

[Muchmoore]

Johnson winning the HW title in that era takes more than a little bit of toughness, in my view at least :good

[Grebfan9]

Hi Mendoza,

As usual you are a wealth of boxing knowledge. I am a Joe Jeanette
fan. Could you let me know where I could get a copy of the Johnson-
Jeanette DQ fight writeup. I didn't know that Jeanette had hurt Johnson
in the 1st round. Thats very interesting.

Years later, Johnson steered clear of Jeanette and refused to give Jeanette a title fight. Of the three top heavyweight contenders back then - Jeanette, McVey and Langford, I feel that Jeanette had the right STYLE OF FIGHTING to potentially whip Johnson. Not saying that Jeanette was a better fighter than McVey or Langford - but styles make fights.


Grebfan9


I suppose the question here was who was the greater fighter, not who would win in a fantasy match up.

As a greater fighter its Rocky by a mile. Rocky showed guts, and pretty much gave all the top ranked contenders title shots. Johnson quit, low blowed DQ'd himself once after getting rocked in the first round by an in-experienced Jeanette, quit in a title fight with an arm injury vs a journeyman, and has a laundry list of excuses as to why he did not look so good.

[PetethePrince]

Rocky was disqualified for kicking a fighter in the nuts in the am's when he was losing.

And before someone says it's the amateurs, boxing was different in the early 1900's from now. You didn't have the internet with everyone knowing about "quit jobs" and you fought much more often in much harder circumstances.

Yeah, it was not only the amateurs but his 1st boxing match ever. One of which he was completely unfocused and out of shape in. He learned his lesson though. I'm going to remind you of pulling this up when you defend something ten times more ludicrous than this statement.

[Mendoza]

Johnson winning the HW title in that era takes more than a little bit of toughness, in my view at least :good

Not in the Ring. Johnson beat an ill Burns, who was ill and well below his normal weight of 168 pounds to win the crown. Burns wanted to postpone the fight.

As Champion there was no mandatory those days. Johnson competition as champion was perhaps the worst of any long tenured champion.

So in my eyes, Johnson had an easy both to win the title, and because he picked the opponents, had an easier time keeping the title.

Rocky as Champion did what a champion is supposed to do. That is fight ranked contenders year after year.

[Mendoza]

Hi Mendoza,

As usual you are a wealth of boxing knowledge. I am a Joe Jeanette
fan. Could you let me know where I could get a copy of the Johnson-
Jeanette DQ fight writeup. I didn't know that Jeanette had hurt Johnson
in the 1st round. Thats very interesting.

Years later, Johnson steered clear of Jeanette and refused to give Jeanette a title fight. Of the three top heavyweight contenders back then - Jeanette, McVey and Langford, I feel that Jeanette had the right STYLE OF FIGHTING to potentially whip Johnson. Not saying that Jeanette was a better fighter than McVey or Langford - but styles make fights.
Grebfan9

Grebfan9,

I don't have the report. I did read it though as it was posted here a while back. Jeanette had a big first round over Johnson and hurt him. Johnson, who was the colored champion at the time went low in round two un-purpose and lost via DQ, but somehow kept his title.

Jeanette's famous quote on Johnson was this. After Jack won the title ( Burns fight ) he forgot about his old friends and drew the color line against this own people.

[he grant]

Head to head Johnson wins easy decision.

[Holmes' Jab]

Johnson by a shade.


Same.

[guilalah]

I'm currently reading Clay Moyle's 'Sam Langford: Boxing's Greatest Uncrowned Champion'. One thing that seems notable in Sam's set to with Johnson was the disparity of strength between the two at that time. There were occaisions when Sam hurt Johnson, but he couldn't follow through because Johnson would tie him up; where as, when Johnson hurt Langford, Sam couldn't tie Johnson up and was compelled to fight through the bad moments.

I tend to rate Marciano a little over Johnson, but I can't claim to have any convincing arguments that I'm right.

[Dempsey1238]

Johnson head to head, might beat Marciano, but no way is he going to have a easy time with it.

This is not middleweights Burns and Ketchel in the ring. And Ketchel had Johnson down.

[Minotauro]

Johnson

[mcvey]

I'm currently reading Clay Moyle's 'Sam Langford: Boxing's Greatest Uncrowned Champion'. One thing that seems notable in Sam's set to with Johnson was the disparity of strength between the two at that time. There were occaisions when Sam hurt Johnson, but he couldn't follow through because Johnson would tie him up; where as, when Johnson hurt Langford, Sam couldn't tie Johnson up and was compelled to fight through the bad moments.

I tend to rate Marciano a little over Johnson, but I can't claim to have any convincing arguments that I'm right.

A. D. Philips Nat Fleischers father in law saw the Johnson ,Langford fight and stated that JOHNSON FLOORED LANGFORD A COUPLE OF TIMES ,BROKE HIS NOSE AND CUT HIS EYE,AND WAS NEVER IN ANY DANGER,of course Langford was only 156 lbs to Johnsons 185lbs, no doubt in later years the fight would have been much more competitive.

[mcvey]

Not in the Ring. Johnson beat an ill Burns, who was ill and well below his normal weight of 168 pounds to win the crown. Burns wanted to postpone the fight.

As Champion there was no mandatory those days. Johnson competition as champion was perhaps the worst of any long tenured champion.

So in my eyes, Johnson had an easy both to win the title, and because he picked the opponents, had an easier time keeping the title.

Rocky as Champion did what a champion is supposed to do. That is fight ranked contenders year after year.


I am sure you mean well below his normal weight of around 180-183 lbs.
Burns had recently recovered from influenza ,according to three papers I read, NOT YELLOW FEVER OR JAUNDICE AS YOU STATED IN EARLIER POSTS.
Burns and the promoter of the fight Hugh D Mcintosh were the best of friends so if Burns was not fit to fight I beleive Mcintosh would have postponed the fight.

[mcvey]

Johnson steered clear of Jeanette?
While there is no doubt he did not defend his world title against him he fought him 5 more times after being dsqd against him,and lost NONE OF THEM, the best Jeannete could manage was a draw in one fight.

[rm36]

I admire Rocky's consistency. But I think multiple wins over Joe Jeannette, Sam Langford, and Tommy Burns should place Johnson above Rocky.

[Dempsey1238]

The others ok, I buy that, but Johnson and Burns only fought one time.


I put more stock in Marciano crushing Archie Moore over a win over Burns imo.

[ChrisPontius]

I will make one point: Rocky cleaned out his era and ducked nobody. The same cannot be said of Johnson.


For me this is the bottomline.

I can forgive Johnson missing a challenger or so, but he missed 4 well deserving contenders in Langford, Mcvey, Jeannette and Gunboat Smith. Sorry, beating them when they are teenagers/super welterweights doesn't amount to much. Lewis beating Bowe in the amateurs doesn't mean he beat a prime Bowe, either.

[Muchmoore]

Yeah, it was not only the amateurs but his 1st boxing match ever. One of which he was completely unfocused and out of shape in. He learned his lesson though. I'm going to remind you of pulling this up when you defend something ten times more ludicrous than this statement.

I love Rocky, my point was to illustrate how you can display the facts differently than they should and how Johnson fought in a much, much tougher environment and under very different circumstances which should be taken into account.

Just like how Rocky's display in that fight shouldn't be held against him as he was doing his training by smoking and eating :lol:

[mcvey]

Well??????????????????
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Johnson looks a little light here imo definitely not over 200lbs.

[mcvey]

Well??????????????????


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[fists of fury]

The amateur fight means little. Sources vary. Some say Rocky kicked his opponent in the stomach.

:lol:

Hey, stomach...groin, what's the difference?

[Mendoza]

I am sure you mean well below his normal weight of around 180-183 lbs.
Burns had recently recovered from influenza ,according to three papers I read, NOT YELLOW FEVER OR JAUNDICE AS YOU STATED IN EARLIER POSTS.
Burns and the promoter of the fight Hugh D Mcintosh were the best of friends so if Burns was not fit to fight I beleive Mcintosh would have postponed the fight.

Burns had a Jaundice. KSmith and other historians at the Cyber boxing zone know the deal. Check for youself.

Burns in fact asked HD Mcintosh to postpone the fight so he could recover, but HD said the tickets were all sold and he either fights or does not get paid. So Burns, who was ill and at a low weight of 168 pounds entered the ring.

[MrMarvel]

Johnson.

That Marciano didn't duck anybody doesn't speak well of the heavyweight division he sat atop of.

[JIm Broughton]

Marciano was the better fighter but Johnson was the better boxer if that's what this thread is asking. If they fought each other I'd favor Johnson by the slightest of margins but it could certainly go the other way. As champion Rocky's resume is better though.

[PetethePrince]

I love Rocky, my point was to illustrate how you can display the facts differently than they should and how Johnson fought in a much, much tougher environment and under very different circumstances which should be taken into account.

Just like how Rocky's display in that fight shouldn't be held against him as he was doing his training by smoking and eating :lol:

No doubt Johnson was tough and tough having to be a black man in the early 1900's. However, I don't think you can say Johnson was a tougher or harder man than Rocky. It's not something easy to gauge but consistently he proved more.

The Rocky example is pretty crazy. Not sure how it would be possible to fault him in that scenario, especially considering how it was the beginning of the makings to arguably the most dedicated fighter that ever lived. Surely, when you defend Tyson's heart or toughness I'll just bring up this... that's all I'm saying. :lol:

[SuzieQ49]

Head to head Johnson wins easy decision.

What makes you so confident. Marvin Hart, an average champion, beat Jack Johnson by swarming all over him with effective aggresion. Was Marvin Hart better than Rocky Marciano? :lol:

[Fighting Weight]

I suppose the question here was who was the greater fighter, not who would win in a fantasy match up.

As a greater fighter its Rocky by a mile. Rocky showed guts, and pretty much gave all the top ranked contenders title shots. Johnson quit, low blowed DQ'd himself once after getting rocked in the first round by an in-experienced Jeanette, quit in a title fight with an arm injury vs a journeyman, and has a laundry list of excuses as to why he did not look so good.

I'd have thought that would make him P4P the best fighter ever in your eyes, surely? :huh

[Fighting Weight]

My vote goes to the Rock, incidentally. Johnson was a great fighter for sure but not a great champion. Whether that was his fault is debatable.

[SuzieQ49]

I'd have thought that would make him P4P the best fighter ever in your eyes, surely? :huh

Fighting Weight,

Hadvn't you heard? Vitali didn't Quit. He "Retired" to due a life threatening injury that could have KILLED him. If Vitali had gone out for the 10th round, his arm would have had to be amputated!! Vitali should be undefeated. Lennox Lewis long dreds caused Vitali to cut up.

[Muchmoore]

The Rocky example is pretty crazy. Not sure how it would be possible to fault him in that scenario, especially considering how it was the beginning of the makings to arguably the most dedicated fighter that ever lived. Surely, when you defend Tyson's heart or toughness I'll just bring up this... that's all I'm saying. :lol:

Tyson isn't Rocky Marciano and I've never argued that he was. Anyway it has no bearing on this argument, amigo.

[PetethePrince]

Tyson isn't Rocky Marciano and I've never argued that he was. Anyway it has no bearing on this argument, amigo.

No, I'm talking about for a later time. That's all... don't worry about it :rasta

[Seamus]

Johnson is staggeringly overrated. He was troubled by many, many supposedly lesser and definitely smaller fighters. Only his legions of myth-hungry, hero worshipping fans- a veritable publicity machine- keep the idea alive that he was a truly great fighter.

Marciano, to a lesser but equally aggravating extent, has a multitude of over-inflators in regards to his ring value.

Head to head, Marciano would blow Johnson out of the ring. Legacy-wise (boxing legacy not social legacy) they are much closer but I give Marciano the nod.

[frankenfrank]

marciano.
johnson didn't have his quality of oposition.
and marciano always succeeded not only to defeat his great oposition , but also to stop them very often.
does someone here think that johnson would have achieved what marciano achieved against marciano's oposition ?

[frankenfrank]

What makes you so confident. Marvin Hart, an average champion, beat Jack Johnson by swarming all over him with effective aggresion. Was Marvin Hart better than Rocky Marciano? :lol:
i think it gives the answer , doesn't it ?

[mcvey]

Burns had a Jaundice. KSmith and other historians at the Cyber boxing zone know the deal. Check for youself.

Burns in fact asked HD Mcintosh to postpone the fight so he could recover, but HD said the tickets were all sold and he either fights or does not get paid. So Burns, who was ill and at a low weight of 168 pounds entered the ring.

I have checked, TODAY.

From Tracy Callis,Burns was rumoured to be suffering the after effects of INFLUENZA,his source Larry Roberts historian.
Wikipeadia also carries this.
Burns was168 lbs for the fight with Johnson.
According to Dan Cuoco Director of the IBRO, Burns best weight was 174 lbs, considering his height, that would be about right imo.So not a huge weight difference.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[mcvey]

Hi Mendoza,

As usual you are a wealth of boxing knowledge. I am a Joe Jeanette
fan. Could you let me know where I could get a copy of the Johnson-
Jeanette DQ fight writeup. I didn't know that Jeanette had hurt Johnson
in the 1st round. Thats very interesting.

Years later, Johnson steered clear of Jeanette and refused to give Jeanette a title fight. Of the three top heavyweight contenders back then - Jeanette, McVey and Langford, I feel that Jeanette had the right STYLE OF FIGHTING to potentially whip Johnson. Not saying that Jeanette was a better fighter than McVey or Langford - but styles make fights.


Grebfan9


Jack and Joe in an exhibition for War Bonds.[Jack still on top] :lol:



[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[mcvey]

Well??????????????????

Could Johnson cut up Rocky like this ?[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Ezzard]

I'd pick Johnson.

A fight would be interesting though. Tying up a guy with such powerful short arms would not be easy.

Two great fighters but I think Johnson would prevail.

[KTFO]

Jack Johnson all the way. RM fighting old wasted men, ducking real contenders.

[JimmyShimmy]

Johnson obviously because he's the bomb.

[fists of fury]

RM fighting old wasted men, ducking real contenders.

Like who?

[Fighting Weight]

Fighting Weight,

Hadvn't you heard? Vitali didn't Quit. He "Retired" to due a life threatening injury that could have KILLED him. If Vitali had gone out for the 10th round, his arm would have had to be amputated!! Vitali should be undefeated. Lennox Lewis long dreds caused Vitali to cut up.

Well VITLAY losing an arm would be life threatening, I suspect WALDO would kill him if he reduced his reach-around options by 50%.

You forgot to mention Lewis's illegal beard too by the way, that was a pivotal factor in the fight, apparently. I think someone should start a poll to predict what the excuses will be if VITLAY loses again this weekend, I see Mendoza has already come up with the obvious one but I like to think that the Klit-ites aren't so past their prime that they can't come up with something more inventive than "he got old", that's nowhere near outrageous enough for my liking.

[RockyJim]

I'll take Marciano....Johnson couldn't hurt The Rock...and he's got nothing to keep Marciano at bay.....Rocky was a force of nature..always in great shape.....I see him swarming all over Johnson in this one!!!

[mcvey]

I'll take Marciano....Johnson couldn't hurt The Rock...and he's got nothing to keep Marciano at bay.....Rocky was a force of nature..always in great shape.....I see him swarming all over Johnson in this one!!!
I havent made a pick ,but I wonder how effective Johnson's uppercuts might be on a crouching Rocky?

[MrMarvel]

What makes you so confident. Marvin Hart, an average champion, beat Jack Johnson by swarming all over him with effective aggresion. Was Marvin Hart better than Rocky Marciano? :lol:

Hart's face was battered to a pulp. The referee awarded him the fight because he forced the action. The crowd was wild for Hart. No doubt, if one understands Johnson's style, his defensive cleverness (which newspaper accounts note) didn't impress the referee, even though Hart came out of the fight the much worse for wear. I haven't seen the fight and don't know if film exists, so I am speculating, but it's hard to imagine that Johnson was treated fairly in the scoring for this fight. Hart beats Johnson with effective aggression yet Burns, Hart's conquerer can hardly deal with Johnson at all? Kudos to Hart for lasting the distance. There is a period where he seems to have been a tough nut to crack. Of course Hart wasn't greater than Marciano. The question is whether Marciano was greater than Johnson, and I can't make the case that he was. I don't think you have made the case, either.

[Bummy Davis]

For me this is the bottomline.

I can forgive Johnson missing a challenger or so, but he missed 4 well deserving contenders in Langford, Mcvey, Jeannette and Gunboat Smith. Sorry, beating them when they are teenagers/super welterweights doesn't amount to much. Lewis beating Bowe in the amateurs doesn't mean he beat a prime Bowe, either.

I feel pretty much the same but I will add head to head I do not think he could handle Rocky's pressure or power and the pace and I think Rocky stops him Late

[Seamus]

so I am speculating

Unfortunately, this is heart of most arguments for Johnson's greatness...

I prefer the following facts...

Limited and otherwise average Hart did enough to beat him.

Little Choynkski knocked him cold.

Little, pitty-patter O'Brien fought him to a draw (whilst Ketchell and Langford KTFO of O'Brien)

Jim Johnson fought him to a draw and depending on your source might have deserved a knock out.

Tiny, booze-soaked Ketchell caught the defensive master with a haymaker and downed him.

Claims of his greatness often refer to his beating Jeanette. How many fighters in the last 100 years get credit for beating an absolute novice over and over, essentially as record padding?

and more, and more...

There are enough red flags to warrant heavy skepticism regarding the lofty heights to which Johnson enthusiasts have vaulted him.

[TheGreatA]

Didn't Tommy Burns weigh 168 pounds that same year in his title defense against Jem Roche?

[TheGreatA]

Green as he may have been, Jeannette had still TKO'd Sam Langford previous to fighting Jack Johnson.

[mcvey]

Didn't Tommy Burns weigh 168 pounds that same year in his title defense against Jem Roche?
Ye he did ,he must have had another jaundice attack :patsch

[mcvey]

Green as he may have been, Jeannette had still TKO'd Sam Langford previous to fighting Jack Johnson.

Yes, a Langford who had had 46 fights.
How inconvenient of you to mention that , along with Great A , who mentioned that Burns weighed exactly the same 168lbs in an earlier defence of his title against Jem Roche whom he bombed out in one round. Wonder if he had jaundice then too?:lol:

[mcvey]

Unfortunately, this is heart of most arguments for Johnson's greatness...

I prefer the following facts...

Limited and otherwise average Hart did enough to beat him.

Little Choynkski knocked him cold.

Little, pitty-patter O'Brien fought him to a draw (whilst Ketchell and Langford KTFO of O'Brien)

Jim Johnson fought him to a draw and depending on your source might have deserved a knock out.

Tiny, booze-soaked Ketchell caught the defensive master with a haymaker and downed him.

Claims of his greatness often refer to his beating Jeanette. How many fighters in the last 100 years get credit for beating an absolute novice over and over, essentially as record padding?

and more, and more...

There are enough red flags to warrant heavy skepticism regarding the lofty heights to which Johnson enthusiasts have vaulted him.

Your posts are provocative which is good ,we dont agree on Johnson ,but that's fine.How you interpret his career is up to you.
I dont think being kod by Choynsky was a disgrace,Johnson was in his 8th fight and Choynsky kod 34 of his 51 victims.
Johnson broke his arm against Jim Johnson.
Ketchel was in good shape for Johnson he weighed 170lbs more than Fitz did in most of his fights.

[guilalah]

McVey #24
Quote:
Originally Posted by guilalah [Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
I'm currently reading Clay Moyle's 'Sam Langford: Boxing's Greatest Uncrowned Champion'. One thing that seems notable in Sam's set to with Johnson was the disparity of strength between the two at that time. There were occaisions when Sam hurt Johnson, but he couldn't follow through because Johnson would tie him up; where as, when Johnson hurt Langford, Sam couldn't tie Johnson up and was compelled to fight through the bad moments.

I tend to rate Marciano a little over Johnson, but I can't claim to have any convincing arguments that I'm right.

A. D. Philips Nat Fleischers father in law saw the Johnson ,Langford fight and stated that JOHNSON FLOORED LANGFORD A COUPLE OF TIMES ,BROKE HIS NOSE AND CUT HIS EYE,AND WAS NEVER IN ANY DANGER,of course Langford was only 156 lbs to Johnsons 185lbs, no doubt in later years the fight would have been much more competitive.


I'd like to be careful, here, that I don't make Moyle doesn't come across as a Langford fan-boy.
It is very clear, in Moyle's book, that Langford took a beatdown from Johnson in a one-sided contest. Moyle does assert that Sam occaisionally landed effective punches and that both were tired at the fights end; but he certainly admits that Langford received far more facial damage and did not land anywhere near as many punches as Johnson; and Moyle never asserts that Johnson was in any immenent danger of being stopped, just that he was shook on a few occaisions, but tied Sam up before it could develope into anything really problematic.

[mcvey]

I'd like to be careful, here, that I don't make Moyle doesn't come across as a Langford fan-boy.
It is very clear, in Moyle's book, that Langford took a beatdown from Johnson in a one-sided contest. Moyle does assert that Sam occaisionally landed effective punches and that both were tired at the fights end; but he certainly admits that Langford received far more facial damage and did not land anywhere near as many punches as Johnson; and Moyle never asserts that Johnson was in any immenent danger of being stopped, just that he was shook on a few occaisions, but tied Sam up before it could develope into anything really problematic.

Thanks for the info.both Johnson at 185lbs and Langford at 156lbs were short of their respective peaks. Johnson had 38 fights up to then and Langford 50. Prime for prime it would have been one to watch, though I favour Johnson , by dec

[MrMarvel]

Johnson was 4-1-2. Choynski was a veteran of more than 60 fights. It was a mismatch in terms of skill. Choynski did not knock Johnson cold. Johnson did not beat the count, but he was not out cold. And the knock out itself was a bit suspicious.

Had the O'Brien-Ketchel contest you mention been six rounds, O'Brien would have been entitled to a clear victory, as he dominated Ketchel through the first eight rounds. Had O'Brien-Johnson been 10 rounds, how then would O'Brien have done? Johnson, clearly out of shape and uninspired, reached him a few times and once had him reeling. Was it only a matter of time? Likely. Don't dismiss O'Brien so easily. He was a tricky boxer.

Since Ketchel and Johnson had agreed to a decision finish, Johnson was not expecting Ketchel to let go like that. And when Ketchel changed the terms of the deal, Johnson ended it right then and there - which it looked like he could have done anytime he decided to.

We have enough film to judge Johnson's abilities. Your argument is not compelling in the least.

Unfortunately, this is heart of most arguments for Johnson's greatness...

I prefer the following facts...

Limited and otherwise average Hart did enough to beat him.

Little Choynkski knocked him cold.

Little, pitty-patter O'Brien fought him to a draw (whilst Ketchell and Langford KTFO of O'Brien)

Jim Johnson fought him to a draw and depending on your source might have deserved a knock out.

Tiny, booze-soaked Ketchell caught the defensive master with a haymaker and downed him.

Claims of his greatness often refer to his beating Jeanette. How many fighters in the last 100 years get credit for beating an absolute novice over and over, essentially as record padding?

and more, and more...

There are enough red flags to warrant heavy skepticism regarding the lofty heights to which Johnson enthusiasts have vaulted him.

[Mendoza]

MrMarvel says: Johnson was 4-1-2. Choynski was a veteran of more than 60 fights. It was a mismatch in terms of skill. Choynski did not knock Johnson cold. Johnson did not beat the count, but he was not out cold. And the knock out itself was a bit suspicious.

This is not correct. Johnson had over 20 fights before he meet Choynski! Here is his record going into the fight:
1894 John Lee Galveston, Tx W 16 -Some sources report "KO 15"Undated (circa 1894-95)
Dave Pierson Galveston, Tx W 1895Apr 11
"Utah" Bob Thompson ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) Galveston, Tx L 4 -Some sources report 1899 1896 Cherokee

Kansas City, Ks KO Howard Pollar Galveston, Tx W

1897 Jim Rocks Galveston, Tx KO 4 Sam Smith Galveston, Tx W 10

1898 Reddy Bremer Galveston, Tx KO 3
Jim Cole Galveston, Tx W 4
Henry Smith Galveston, Tx D 15

1899Feb 11 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx D 7

Mar 17 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx WF 7May 6

Klondike (John Haines) ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) Chicago, Il LT

4Dec 16 Pat Smith Galveston, Tx D 12

1900Mar 7 John Lee Galveston, Tx W

15Mar 20 Willie McNeal Galveston, Tx KO 15

Apr 6 Bob White Galveston, Tx W 15

Apr 12 Charley Brooks Galveston, Tx KO 2

May 1 Jim Scanlan Galveston, Tx KO 7

May 6 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx KO 2

May 28 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx KO 7

Jun 12 Horace Miles Galveston, Tx KO 3

Jun 25 Klondike (John Haines) ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) Galveston, Tx D 20 -Some sources report 6/28/00

Oct George Lawler Galveston, Tx KO

10Nov Josh Mills Memphis, Tn W 12

Dec 27 Klondike (John Haines) ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) Memphis, Tn TK 14 -Some sources report 12/28/00

1901Feb 25 Joe Choynski ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) Galveston, Tx LK 3 -Both fighters were arrested after the fightMar 22 –Johnson and Choynski ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) were released from jail after each posted a $1,000 bondApr


26 Billy Stift Denver, Co D 10

Nov 4 Hank Griffin ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) Bakersfield, Ca L 20

Dec 27 Hank Griffin ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) Oakland, Ca D 20



Had the O'Brien-Ketchel contest you mention been six rounds, O'Brien would have been entitled to a clear victory, as he dominated Ketchel through the first eight rounds. Had O'Brien-Johnson been 10 rounds, how then would O'Brien have done? Johnson, clearly out of shape and uninspired, reached him a few times and once had him reeling. Was it only a matter of time? Likely. Don't dismiss O'Brien so easily. He was a tricky boxer.

True. A past his best supper middle weight out boxed and out jabbed Johnson. Since Johnson claims he wasn't in shape, O'briend coudl have out worked him in the later rounds if was scheduled for 10, or perhaps have been TKO'd. Either way, its very interesting to see what a skilled guy did vs. Johnson. Johnson's vaunted defense and glove blocking didn't help him at all here.



We have enough film to judge Johnson's abilities. Your argument is not compelling in the least.

I agree that we have enough flim and news reads to judge him.

[McGrain]

The point is - Johnson was inexperienced, Choynski was very experienced, and also happened to be perhaps the hardest puncher that had ever thrown a punch in anger up until that point. Jeffries and Corbett seem to agree upon his being the hardest hitter they had ever faced, certainly.

[elTerrible]

In terms of toughness, intangibles and the wiliness to fight, its Marciano via landslide. The amateur fight means little. Sources vary. Some say Rocky kicked his opponent in the stomach.



:lol: I dont think that is much better

[MrMarvel]

The point is - Johnson was inexperienced, Choynski was very experienced, and also happened to be perhaps the hardest puncher that had ever thrown a punch in anger up until that point. Jeffries and Corbett seem to agree upon his being the hardest hitter they had ever faced, certainly.

Jeffries said he had never faced a harder puncher.

Jeffries also said, about Johnson, "He's better than I ever was."

[mcvey]

Jeffries said he had never faced a harder puncher.

Jeffries also said, about Johnson, "He's better than I ever was."

You won't get any change from Mendoza with that remark !

[MrMarvel]

True. A past his best supper middle weight out boxed and out jabbed Johnson. Since Johnson claims he wasn't in shape, O'briend coudl have out worked him in the later rounds if was scheduled for 10, or perhaps have been TKO'd. Either way, its very interesting to see what a skilled guy did vs. Johnson. Johnson's vaunted defense and glove blocking didn't help him at all here.

O'Brien is only credited with winning two rounds of the contest. Two rounds went to Johnson and the other two were even.

You just sank your argument!

[Ste Hawkins]

The Galveston Giant. He's a true ATG and he's only dissed by young and ignorant fans who don't appreciate the old school and think modern means "fitter/stronger/harder"!!

[mcvey]

The Galveston Giant. He's a true ATG and he's only dissed by young and ignorant fans who don't appreciate the old school and think modern means "fitter/stronger/harder"!!

And a bigot on this forum who has a hate fixation with him.

[mcvey]

O'Brien is only credited with winning two rounds of the contest. Two rounds went to Johnson and the other two were even.

You just sank your argument!

Johnson was at a party till the early hours the night before he went the 6 rds no dec with O Brien, he entered the ring hung over.
Knowing OBrien had zero power to stop him and therefore his title was safe, [as it was a no dec affair he could only lose by stoppage].Johnson took the opportunity to do virtually nothing ,he was booed for loafing and O Brien was booed for running , a lamentable affair that reflected no credit to either man especially Johnson, whose disdain for the opinion of the paying public was all too apparent.As a guide to how O Brien would do in a real decision fight against Johnson, it was absolutely useless.
Burns beat O Brien ,and Johnson toyed with Burns, make up your own mind who would come out on top in a fight in earnest between Johnson and O Brien.

[Brian123]

Marciano by a shade.

[Seamus]

And the apology machine is revved to full for Johnson... "Oh he was green for Choynski", "Oh he was partying the night before O'Brien"...

Just as I stated. Do you people really think I haven't heard this shit before? I have travelled a hundred miles to buy actual clippings from original papers of his fights. I have researched this shit for over two decades. Come up with something original besides more excuses to deify Johnson.

[beecho1988]

Marciano

[mcvey]

And the apology machine is revved to full for Johnson... "Oh he was green for Choynski", "Oh he was partying the night before O'Brien"...

Just as I stated. Do you people really think I haven't heard this shit before? I have travelled a hundred miles to buy actual clippings from original papers of his fights. I have researched this shit for over two decades. Come up with something original besides more excuses to deify Johnson.

If you look through some of my earlier posts you will see that I described Johnson as a vain, conceited ,strutting shit ,and a known liar.Deifying ?I dont think so.
A question .if my post is inaccurate ,assume Johnson and O Brien are both in good shape in a fight over 15 -20 rds, fought to a decision. Johnson is favourite and OBrien is an 8 to 1 outsider, who would you bet on?

[Mendoza]

You won't get any change from Mendoza with that remark !

Does that previous post have a direct source, or is it media hype?

The source I had from Johnson said Jeffries was the greatest. Oh by the way Johnson said in an interview that Hart whipped him too. I also have that source and have posted it here :)

[Mendoza]

And the apology machine is revved to full for Johnson... "Oh he was green for Choynski", "Oh he was partying the night before O'Brien"...

Just as I stated. Do you people really think I haven't heard this shit before? I have travelled a hundred miles to buy actual clippings from original papers of his fights. I have researched this shit for over two decades. Come up with something original besides more excuses to deify Johnson.

Yes the apology machine contines.... I have seen some people change perspective, but others remain steadfast even though the films, and news papers disagree with them.

As I said before Johnson had a least 20 fights prior to facing Choynski and was a veteran of battle Royals. Also, it was Choynski who rode the rails. Johnson was fighting in his home town.

[mcvey]

Yes the apology machine contines.... I have seen some people change perspective, but others remain steadfast even though the films, and news papers disagree with them.

As I said before Johnson had a least 20 fights prior to facing Choynski and was a veteran of battle Royals. Also, it was Choynski who rode the rails. Johnson was fighting in his home town.

Any comment on Tommy Burns being 168lbs for his ko defence win over Jem Roche ,same as he weighed for his defence against Johnson ,or do you assume he had jaundice/yellow fever then too.:rofl
Any comment on Tracy Callis statement that Burns was suffering the after effects of influenza NOT Jaundice?
Any comment on my thread about pressure being applied to the biceps, to control a man inside,video provided?

[Mendoza]

Any comment on Tommy Burns being 168lbs for his ko defence win over Jem Roche ,same as he weighed for his defence against Johnson ,or do you assume he had jaundice/yellow fever then too.:rofl
Any comment on Tracy Callis statement that Burns was suffering the after effects of influenza NOT Jaundice?
Any comment on my thread about pressure being applied to the biceps, to control a man inside,video provided?

Kevin Smith is the top historian on early black prize fighters. He says Burns had a Jaundice. My research says the same thing. In this case Callis is mistaken.

As I said before Burns was at a low weight and not at 100%.

I commented on the biceps point a while back when you claimed it was a great means of defense. I suppose it can work when you have you are heavyweight fighting a 5'7" super middle weight. It is not a good form of deffense in modern boxing.

[mcvey]

Kevin Smith is the top historian on early black prize fighters. He says Burns had a Jaundice. My research says the same thing. In this case Callis is mistaken.

As I said before Burns was at a low weight and not at 100%.

I commented on the biceps point a while back when you claimed it was a great means of defense. I suppose it can work when you have you are heavyweight fighting a 5'7" super middle weight. It is not a good form of deffense in modern boxing.

Kevin Smith is just one of many historians on boxing. HE IS NOT THE DEFINITIVE EXPERT BY ANY MEANS.BURNS DID NOT HAVE JAUNDICE,OR ,AS YOU CALLED IT IN YOUR ORIGINAL POST, YELLOW FEVER.He was recovering from influenza

How do you account for Burns weighing the same 168 lbs against Roche for a title defence?
Your comment , " I suppose it can work " ,is as near as you have ever come on this forum to admitting you were wrong.

Maybe , in another decade we might see one or two admissions of fallibilty from you ,but I am not holding my breath .

Holding the biceps is effective against MORE POWERFUL fighters ,as the video that was just posted on my behalf by another kind poster proves.
Ron Lipman used it against Tiger PRECISELY because Tiger was more powerful ,and he states unequivocably he learnt it from Giardello, who was Not as powerful as Tiger.

Johnson used it against Jeffries who was emphatically NOT a super middle weight.
The video destroys your argument entirely as Tiger and Giardello are MODERN boxers.
If you admitted you were wrong, I would have some respect for you ,but you won't ,and I don't.

[Seamus]

Not to step into this beautiful fray, but giving Johnson much credit for beating that version of Jeffries is a big step outside of the realities of sport.

[Mendoza]

Not to step into this beautiful fray, but giving Johnson much credit for beating that version of Jeffries is a big step outside of the realities of sport.

Seamus,

McVey insists Johnson must get credit for squeezing biceps! Oh, what defense.

[mcvey]

Not to step into this beautiful fray, but giving Johnson much credit for beating that version of Jeffries is a big step outside of the realities of sport.

Ive never given him much credit for beating a man much diminished ,really not much more than a facsimile of his former self.I have allways thought a prime Johnson and Jeffries would be an entirely different fight ,it would be totally unrealistic to assume otherwise imo.I still think Johnson beats Jeffries but by decision ,and it would be a close and competitive fight .
I give Johnson as much credit for this fight as I give Jeffries for koing the shell of Peter Jackson, ie, very little.

[mcvey]

Seamus,

McVey insists Johnson must get credit for squeezing biceps! Oh, what defense.

I don't give Johnson any credit foR squeezing biceps ,I have NEVER SAID I DO. What I said was it was a common way of controlling a fighter inside

you disputed this and tried in your asinine way to belittle my assertion,now that assertion has been endorsed by video evidence,not to mention photographic evidence of Johnson doing precisely that to Jeffries you try to weasel out of it.
You are not a whole man are you? You haven't the guts to say" I am wrong"
The Forum's Johnson hater, a sad specimen of a HUMAN BEING
I WOULD NOT PISS ON YOU

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[road_warrior_99]

Ive never given him much credit for beating a man much diminished ,really not much more than a facsimile of his former self.I have allways thought a prime Johnson and Jeffries would be an entirely different fight ,it would be totally unrealistic to assume otherwise imo.I still think Johnson beats Jeffries but by decision ,and it would be a close and competitive fight .
I give Johnson as much credit for this fight as I give Jeffries for koing the shell of Peter Jackson, ie, very little.
I agree that Jeffries had shed close to 100 lbs to fight Johnson and that has to effect his Cardio/Endurance. Still see Johnson winning a 15rd decision as you mentioned. You have to give Johnson credit for being emotionally strong enough to thwart the hatred leveled against him at the time. This social pressure has to wear you down over time and leaves you unfocused. I see Marciano totally focused on boxing so it is hard to compare the times of these two fighters.

[mcvey]

i agree that jeffries had shed close to 100 lbs to fight johnson and that has to effect his cardio/endurance. Still see johnson winning a 15rd decision as you mentioned. You have to give johnson credit for being emotionally strong enough to thwart the hatred leveled against him at the time. This social pressure has to wear you down over time and leaves you unfocused. I see marciano totally focused on boxing so it is hard to compare the times of these two fighters.

I quite agree and I have not made a pick in this debate.

[Seamus]

Well, I think Jeffries is almost as overrated as Johnson. The guy was a beast of a man for his time but he struggled with guys far, far smaller. I think the word that best describes him is "limited."

[mcvey]

Well, I think Jeffries is almost as overrated as Johnson. The guy was a beast of a man for his time but he struggled with guys far, far smaller. I think the word that best describes him is "limited."

Don't tell me, tell Mendoza ,his self appointed protector, and number one fanboy.
You are entitled to your opinions ,as I have said before , I don't agree with you on Johnson ,but that 's bye the bye. If we all agreed there would not be much point to the forum would there?

[Seamus]

If we all agreed there would not be much point to the forum would there?

Nope there would not.

A lot of amorphous inexact terms like "greatness" and "talent" get tossed around here. That sort of argument is fairly pointless. Basically, you only get the quality of answers in regard to the quality of questions you ask.

I like to learn some facts or at least reported facts in my discussions.

[mcvey]

Nope there would not.

A lot of amorphous inexact terms like "greatness" and "talent" get tossed around here. That sort of argument is fairly pointless. Basically, you only get the quality of answers in regard to the quality of questions you ask.

I like to learn some facts or at least reported facts in my discussions.
One of my pet hates is the overuse of the word "great", it has been devalued so as to become almost meaningless, imo :good

[Dempsey1238]

Perhaps, but I think both Johnson and Marciano earn the right to be called great.

[MrMarvel]

Perhaps, but I think both Johnson and Marciano earn the right to be called great.

At least one of them has.

[MrMarvel]

Kevin Smith is the top historian on early black prize fighters. He says Burns had a Jaundice. My research says the same thing. In this case Callis is mistaken.

As I said before Burns was at a low weight and not at 100%.

I commented on the biceps point a while back when you claimed it was a great means of defense. I suppose it can work when you have you are heavyweight fighting a 5'7" super middle weight. It is not a good form of deffense in modern boxing.

How fit would Burns need to be in order to avoid being completely dominated and ktfo?

[frankenfrank]

marciano clearly.

[Dempsey1238]

At least one of them has.


And which one??

[janitor]

At the end of the day it is subjective.

Quantity vs consistency.

Personaly I think that verry few posters here have a handel on how deep Johnson's resume is and what it means.

[MrMarvel]

Johnson. Clearly. He is historically the more important and far superior to every other heavyweight of his style.

I am not impressed by Rocky enough to think of him as an all-time great heavyweight, and that is relative to the level of development of the division in that day. I see him as reigning during a weak period with a smart manager. I don't regard a single fighter he faced as a great or even outstanding heavyweight. Moore was a great light heavyweight. So was Charles. Both were solid heavyweights. But neither was great or outstanding at that weight the way, say, Frazier or Louis was. And I believe either of them would beat on him on another day. Walcott clearly wasn't an outstanding heavyweight and he had Rocky whipped but for his chin that betrayed him (as it often did). Louis was outstanding, but way over the hill. Layne, LaStarza, Matthews, Cockell and the rest were nothing special. Rocky doesn't look very good on film. Put him in the 1980s prize ring and we will talk about an interesting fight, but nothing more.

I believe he gets the attention he does because he's white. Sorry. I know that's controversial. But it's the only way I can explain how a limited smallish heavyweight gets touted as an all-time great. There's no rational explanation.

[Dempsey1238]

Johnson. Clearly. He is historically the more important and far superior to every other heavyweight of his style.

I am not impressed by Rocky enough to think of him as an all-time great heavyweight, and that is relative to the level of development of the division in that day. I see him as reigning during a weak period with a smart manager. I don't regard a single fighter he faced as a great or even outstanding heavyweight. Moore was a great light heavyweight. So was Charles. Both were solid heavyweights. But neither was great or outstanding at that weight the way, say, Frazier or Louis was. And I believe either of them would beat on him on another day. Walcott clearly wasn't an outstanding heavyweight and he had Rocky whipped but for his chin that betrayed him (as it often did). Louis was outstanding, but way over the hill. Layne, LaStarza, Matthews, Cockell and the rest were nothing special. Rocky doesn't look very good on film. Put him in the 1980s prize ring and we will talk about an interesting fight, but nothing more.

I believe he gets the attention he does because he's white. Sorry. I know that's controversial. But it's the only way I can explain how a limited smallish heavyweight gets touted as an all-time great. There's no rational explanation.


I dont think its race, What made Rocky great was because he clear out his era.

Weight or not, Charles, Walcott, Louis and Moore were GREATS of the ring.
Louis was past his prime, but Charles and Walcott were cleaning out the divsion when Rocky got em in the ring(I dont count the lost to Johnson on Charles part, Clear robbery imo)

Johnson may have had a great pre title run, but once he won it, he didnt face the best out there, were Rocky time in and time out fought the best.

Archie Moore did more at lightheayvweight than Bob Foster getting rank number 1 over Valez, were Foster got blasted out mostly against good or great heavyweights.

Johnson didnt relly help his case with middleweights like Ketchel or Langford imo.

I rank Rocky higher, thought because Johnson is the first black fighter, historic is higher.


PS, Fraizer or even Joe Louis beating Marciano is mostly guess work imo. I give each fight 50 50 about.

I also belive if Ali is taking off of Fraizer's record, Rocky beat the better fighters.

[janitor]

Johnson. Clearly. He is historically the more important and far superior to every other heavyweight of his style.

I am not impressed by Rocky enough to think of him as an all-time great heavyweight, and that is relative to the level of development of the division in that day. I see him as reigning during a weak period with a smart manager. I don't regard a single fighter he faced as a great or even outstanding heavyweight. Moore was a great light heavyweight. So was Charles. Both were solid heavyweights. But neither was great or outstanding at that weight the way, say, Frazier or Louis was. And I believe either of them would beat on him on another day. Walcott clearly wasn't an outstanding heavyweight and he had Rocky whipped but for his chin that betrayed him (as it often did). Louis was outstanding, but way over the hill. Layne, LaStarza, Matthews, Cockell and the rest were nothing special. Rocky doesn't look very good on film. Put him in the 1980s prize ring and we will talk about an interesting fight, but nothing more.

I believe he gets the attention he does because he's white. Sorry. I know that's controversial. But it's the only way I can explain how a limited smallish heavyweight gets touted as an all-time great. There's no rational explanation.

I dont see any way that a champion who defended his title half a dozen times against elite contenders of his era (all ranked top 5) can not be considered great.

There is no prescedent from any period in history for such a champion not being acored this status and if you are going to set it then a lot of other champions traditionaly considerd great will be colateral victims.

[Ste Hawkins]

Jack Johnson is the ATG. In any era he shines. The man was a legend. Get things in perspective. He wasfighting 30 round wars before the likes of Marciano were even born. He was retired before Joe Louis even hit puberty. He was a boxing visionary. Imagine him in the 70's, 80's or current era with the same benefit of training and nutrition techniques the recent champs have had.

[MrMarvel]

I dont see any way that a champion who defended his title half a dozen times against elite contenders of his era (all ranked top 5) can not be considered great.

I can't either. But you aren't describing Marciano. He beat no elite heavyweight. Period.

[North Star]

Johnson had more skills but I think Rocky could probably defeat Jack.

[junior-soprano]

You really think Marciano could do what Langford couldn't do? Johnson in his prime could go for 30 rounds without getting hit clean. Marciano had the heart of a lion and had warrior strength but Johnson is an ATG and shades it.

yep