Care to speculate on what may have been different for these guys if they were white?

[McGrain]

Sam Langford

Muhammad Ali

Chris Byrd



What, if anything, would heave been different about their careers?

[Dempsey1238]

It would have played a big part imo.
We have a lot more haters on these guys saying Ali fought in a weak era.

[McGrain]

We have a lot more haters on these guys saying Ali fought in a weak era.

:lol: :nono

[Bummy Davis]

ALI COULD HAVE NOT BEEN MORE POPULAR but he may have gone to NAM, byrd would still be a small, light hitting heavyweight with gifted wins vs Oquendo,Golota. LANGFORD FOUGHT IN AN ERA WHERE IT MATTERED BUT HE STILL WOULD BE AVOIDED, WHITE OR BLACK

[Dempsey1238]

:lol: :nono

Its true, you dont see nearly as much smack talk about Ali, as Dempsey and Marciano are talk as. Just think if he were white.

[McGrain]

Its true, you dont see nearly as much smack talk about Ali, as Dempsey and Marciano are talk as. Just think if he were white.

Well here's another way of looking at it - a white conscienscus objector isn't going to get anything like as hard a time as a black one. Secondly, Ali isn't even getting into the organisation he was in if he was white.

If Ali was white and all other aspects of his being remained the same, he wouldn't lose those precious years - his peak years - to a ban.

[McGrain]

byrd would still be a small, light hitting heavyweight with gifted wins vs Oquendo,Golota.

A small, skilled white fighter taking on the black giants of the HW division is massive box office regardless of Byrd's power deficit.

At the very least, he would have got the Lewis fight.

[Dempsey1238]

It must be rember there were a lot of whites protesting the war Also. Who knows?? Maybe White Ali becames a Hippy with long hair singing give Peace a chance??

[Luigi1985]

Its true, you dont see nearly as much smack talk about Ali, as Dempsey and Marciano are talk as. Just think if he were white.



Agreed!

[Sweet Science]

It would have played a big part imo.
We have a lot more haters on these guys saying Ali fought in a weak era.

So what you're saying is, because the majority of people out there don't rate Dempsey or Marciano quite as high as Ali, then they must be racists?

[Dempsey1238]

Well when they start ranking guys like Bowe who has 1 mere title defense or 7-0-1 L Spinks over Dempsey and Marciano, than I must be thinking of why???

Outside of Holyfiled, Bowe relly didnt do anything of note.

[McGrain]

Uh-oh.

Before we get involved in a race riot here, this is a thread about the prejudice these men may or may not have faced in their careers rather than a general discussion about race and how it affects perception of ESB's posters.

Let's try to keep it on topic so nobody gets hurt.

[McGrain]

Sam Langford would have gotten a shot at Johnson i think, don´t know who would have won. He also still would be avoided by many but it would be more difficult because a white fighter of Langford´s caliber would mean big money fights.

He'd also be a title holder, possibly at heavy as well as middle and Ligh-heavy making him much harder for the top men to duck - I wonder if he would have done any ducking himself?


Chris Byrd would be much more popular and earn more money but that´s about it.

Do you think he would have got the shot at Lewis?

[Sweet Science]

Well when they start ranking guys like Bowe who has 1 mere title defense or 7-0-1 L Spinks over Dempsey and Marciano, than I must be thinking of why???

Outside of Holyfiled, Bowe relly didnt do anything of note.

Well, obviously there are people of an unsound mind out there who would rate Spinks over Marciano or Dempsey. The only way Bowe could possibly rank higher than Marciano or Dempsey would be on a head to head basis and thats if you were purely looking at the very best example of Big Daddy from 1992.

The small minority of people who hate on Marciano and Demspey do so because they lack knowledge and what little they do have generally only extends about as far back as Tyson.

[Dempsey1238]

So non you guys invision Ali joing the Hippy movement of the 60's than?

[McGrain]

So non you guys invision Ali joing the Hippy movement of the 60's than?


Possible!

But even if he did that I think America would stomach it. I don't think he would lose his licence.

[Dempsey1238]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Yep found White Ali right here. As it turn out, he didnt go to war, protested the war, and still lost 3 years.

[Dempsey1238]

Possible!

But even if he did that I think America would stomach it. I don't think he would lose his licence.

I belive he could have. Dempsey nearly went to prison on draft evasion in WW1, until they found the papers that Dempsey at least try to inlist. Dempsey never recover for it. Had Dempsey been found guily, Dempsey could have spend 3 years or so behind bars.

[CzarKyle]

Langford: Would have had a proper title shot. I lack a lot of historical understand of this era.

Ali: Hmmm...if he did the same stuff, but he would still be white...I'd say he would still be considered a traitor, except it probably would have been seen as less of an offense since he would be white this time around. However, he probably wouldn't have been accepted into being a Muslim. I'm aware there are white Muslims, but the White ones accepted everyone for who they were, where as the real Ali joined a Pan African type (extreme separatists). That would be a bit hard for me to put together. But lets just say he stayed rooted in boxing. He probably would have been forgiven or he would have had a better chance at coming back to boxing in general. His fights with Frazier would have been a race war every time. Since Ali liked to stir things up you still would end up seeing the deep rivalry of Ali-Frazier, but this time the racial connotations would be extremely different. He also wouldn't have had the voice of the people for when he defeated Foreman. I can only imagine that fight wouldn't have taken place in Zaire. You'd see it somewhere in Europe or the USA. He wouldn't have had the huge impact that he had on African Americans. Also you wouldn't see that ridiculous piece of crap called "Ali Rap" that ESPN shamelessly shelled out. Hip Hop came from the Bronx, not Muhammad Ali. Read Can't Stop Won't Stop by Jeff Chang to understand that. Perhaps his greatest rival would end up being Jerry Quarry with Joe Frazier becoming his black foil. There's really a lot to speculate here.

Chris Byrd: He'd still be boring as hell, but maybe since he'd have the "White Hope" aura he would have transcended his real title reign and there would have been more pressure to unify since he was the "White Hope". He would have been able to do what Cooney couldn't do.

Writer's Note: It's interesting to see the spin that race can do to boxing. I'm lacking a lot of knowledge on Langford or else I'd be able to make a better explanation as to what would happen. It's also sad to note the differences that would happen. I think Joe Frazier would have been considered a better champ since he would have a lot to work for. Assuming that if him and Ali met up was a race war, Joe would be carrying the Black banner and his entire history would be very different. Also the Nation of Islam wouldn't have had Ali's back and a lot of the death threats they sent to Joe Bugner and any other fighter wouldn't have happened (Noted in Facing Ali). So maybe Bugner could have tried to defeat 1970 White Ali, instead of just making it look like a fight.

Final Comment: Race, just like religion has gotten us into a lot of problems. It's sad in how the nationalistic ideals played through race or religion get us (humanity) facing each other with guns drawn. All the way back to the Crusades and further before that, too many wars have been fought over differences. The only situation I see aggression justified is through proper Human progression and in some extreme situations, revolution. To understand and to reach a collective understanding outside of religion, color, and any other minor difference is basically the crux of my understanding and philosophy. Like the ripple effect, one drop can ripple throughout many lives (major and minor players in the Human race) and shape the world we live in today.

[fists of fury]

You can make a case for Ali and Langford having significantly different careers, but not Byrd.
The whole white hope thing had died out by then, and even if a guy's white, he has to be exciting or at least somewhat entertaining.
Byrd was one of the worst and most boring champions ever to wear the strap.

[OLD FOGEY]

Well here's another way of looking at it - a white conscienscus objector isn't going to get anything like as hard a time as a black one. Secondly, Ali isn't even getting into the organisation he was in if he was white.

If Ali was white and all other aspects of his being remained the same, he wouldn't lose those precious years - his peak years - to a ban.

Dempsey ended up in court accused of being a slacker after WWI.

[McGrain]

Dempsey ended up in court accused of being a slacker after WWI.


Very, very different times. I accept that there was an enormous shift post Vietnam, but there had also been one one post WW1 and, of course, the sixties.

[OLD FOGEY]

Well, obviously there are people of an unsound mind out there who would rate Spinks over Marciano or Dempsey. The only way Bowe could possibly rank higher than Marciano or Dempsey would be on a head to head basis and thats if you were purely looking at the very best example of Big Daddy from 1992.

The small minority of people who hate on Marciano and Demspey do so because they lack knowledge and what little they do have generally only extends about as far back as Tyson.


Well, Dempsey and Marciano are also put down by the "size is all or mostly all" crowd, and in fairness, there need not be a racial motivation for this. Many are Klitschko fans.
Also, there is the "modern is always best" crowd, also not necessarily based on racial motivation.

Of course, seeing Leon Spinks as better than Dempsey or Marciano is pretty far out.

[mr. magoo]

If Ali were white, he sure as hell couldn't float like a butterfly or sting like a bee.

[janitor]

Sam Langford

Muhammad Ali

Chris Byrd



What, if anything, would heave been different about their careers?

Sam Langford would verry likley have been the champion at some point if he had been white. It would just have been a matter of Jack Johnson geting old enough and Johnson would not have been able to avoid him.

Muhamad Ali would have been even bigger than he was at the box office but might not have become as much of a cultural icon. It is quite likley that he would not have been drafted as the draft boards were notorious for selecting young outspoken black men.

Chris Byrd as a white American beltholder could have been a superstar. Especialy given that he gave up a lot of weight to his oponents.

[C. M. Clay II]

Why?

You don't understand why?

[Dempsey1238]

Sam Langford would verry likley have been the champion at some point if he had been white. It would just have been a matter of Jack Johnson geting old enough and Johnson would not have been able to avoid him.

Muhamad Ali would have been even bigger than he was at the box office but might not have become as much of a cultural icon. It is quite likley that he would not have been drafted as the draft boards were notorious for selecting young outspoken black men.

Chris Byrd as a white American beltholder could have been a superstar. Especialy given that he gave up a lot of weight to his oponents.

A certain King of Rock and Roll was drafted. And he was white.
Rocky Marciano got drafted before he found fame.
Gene Tunney was pretty well known, but he got drafted for WW1.
Billy Conn also got drafted, So did Toney Zale. And other white stars.

[janitor]

A certain King of Rock and Roll was drafted. And he was white.
Rocky Marciano got drafted before he found fame.
Gene Tunney was pretty well known, but he got drafted for WW1.
Billy Conn also got drafted, So did Toney Zale. And other white stars.

The draft in world war II was much larger and more indiscriminate than that in Vietnam. If you were made of meat you were fair game.

In Vietnam you had a smaller draft more subject to local and regional predudices.