Jake Lamotta Vs. Joe Calzaghe

[CzarKyle]

I've been talking with certain Joe Calzaghe fan (some of you might have already encountered this character...). And I came to a disagreement. I think Jake Lamotta would embarass Joe Calzaghe. There is a height difference of 5'8" (Lamotta) to 5'11" (Calzaghe). I still think that isn't enough. Lamotta's chin would be able to get right through any punch Joe has to offer. Then Jake would be money shots abound in pulverizing Joe's lower body and capping those body shot combos with cranial crunching hooks. The only way Joe could possibly win is if he stacks the cards in his favor as per what Leonard did to Hagler in their encounter.

Vote, and if you feel inclined please do put in your two cents.

[McGrain]

Oh dear.

[CzarKyle]

Oh dear.

Oh dear indeed. I felt inclined to do this, and I hope something interesting comes of it. I pray it doesn't devolve into silly name calling.

[McGrain]

Tell you what else. It would be a close one. Points, too, no knock out here (probably).

[China_hand_Joe]

CzarKyle, do you mind if I publish the PMs so far mate -questionmark-

[CzarKyle]

CzarKyle, do you mind if I publish the PMs so far mate -questionmark-

Go ahead, I was just attempting to pick your brain to see what you see. I have no problem what so ever.

[China_hand_Joe]

I'm not saying Calzaghe would Lacy LaMotta, but he'd do a number on him.

Jake's offensive would be somewhat nullified against Calzaghe. Calzaghe can be beaten by counter-right hands (not really Jake's style). Calzaghe would just pick Jake off from the distance with his world class jab, occasionally moving in, slapping him a few times and then tying him up.

Anyways...aside from Lamotta's size being the only true disadvantage Lamotta's chin would walk right through the jab and the slaps and go straight for the body. It would probably be a good fight that wouldn't last more than six rounds (assuming Joe tried to trade or allow Jake within range), but I cannot fathom Calzaghe winning under any circumstance other than cuts or a decision (which even brings into account can Joe last 15 rounds? I doubt it since he's used to understanding that after 12 there is no fight). Only if Joe was able to stay away from Lamotta's smothering bully style he would be able to produce any headway.


Calzaghe would happily win on points. And yes Joe Calzaghe could last 15 rounds I'm sure. He has one of the highest work rates in the sport, Jeff Lacy ended up waiting the entire fight for Calzaghe's pace to slow, it never happened.


There is also nothing to suggest Calzaghe is anymore likely to be stopped than LaMotta here.

[China_hand_Joe]

All kinds of things were overlooked. Personally I believe LaMotta to be a particularly bad name to pick against Calzaghe, not that there is a good name.

Calzaghe has more advantages than just size/height. Calzaghe is faster, in my opinion more elusive too. One big problem is, how is LaMotta going to work his way in? With a jab? I find that unlikely, given Calzaghe's southpaw stance, with the right hand up. The man has never been troubled by jabs throughout his career.

Right hands trouble Calzaghe, and I don't see LaMotta's right being as good as Eubanks' or Reids. My eyesight tells me Jake's is slower, though the aggressiveness is there, so he might land a few. I have no reason to believe either man is being stopped, unless it is by accumulation.

Joe Calzaghe is also better looking. This might make Jake jealous and cause him to lose his cool. Which definitely wouldn't be a good thing for Jake.

The other factor is the way Calzaghe has looked against pressuring fighters in the past, especially those smaller than he is. He generally picks them off no problem at range and moves in to land a high volume of punches once he opens then up a little. Joe almost certainly puts LaMotta onto the back foot for spurts, similar to how Robinson managed it in bursts.


LaMotta on the other hand? I don't see how he will remain close enough to the fleet footed Calzaghe to land these bodyshots. He can't really outbox Joe and pressure isn't going to work either.

[McGrain]

Joe Calzaghe is also better looking. This might make Jake jealous and cause him to lose his cool.


:lol:


Impossible to make a proper pick here in my opinion.

I agree with you that a stoppage is highly unlikely.


I'm not voting. Flip a coin.

[China_hand_Joe]

I'm trying to remember how this poll worked out last time.

Ended up quite favorable for Calzaghe in the end I think.

[McGrain]

I'm trying to remember how this poll worked out last time.

Ended up quite favorable for Calzaghe in the end I think.


Now I have to vote for Jake.

[China_hand_Joe]

Were you one of the ones who helped it off to a shakey start last time?

[McGrain]

:lol:

Don't remember old chap.

[China_hand_Joe]

I think you actually meant to vote for Calzaghe here, when you consider your own biases.

You are a 'Pep-pert sympathiser 'and a fearer of China_hand_Joe's boxing expertise. When you say 50/50, it surely means Calzaghe?

It is like me when I say Calzaghe vs Wlad is 50/50, it is clear that 50/50 really means I know deep-down Wlad wins.

[garrywhite]

its joe for me, he does'nt get the recognition he deserves:happy :smoke

[McGrain]

Nah, that's not me at all. I love modern boxing every bit as much as the old stuff. It really doesn't make a huge amount of difference to me when the guy had his fight.

Here we have the best fighter that Calzaghe would ever have faced, and at 168, his "natural" weight too. So there are immediate questions about Calzaghe's ability to mix it in this class.

He's also up against a hard headed fighter that "takes one to give one" (though in this case he probably won't be landing at that ratio) & that combined with the fact that powderpuffs just won't keep Jake of you leads us straight up a path to Joe's biggest weakness.


On the other hand, Joe will be scoring plenty, has a serious advantage in height, can work, and is a good puncher when his hands are in tact.

Calzaghe would take an early lead but I also feel he would be made to work to fast for his own comfort in this one and would seriously start to flag down the home straight.

I'd be unsurprised if the decision was contested whichever way it went.

[red cobra]

As great as Jake was, this guy Calzaghe is painfully underrated here in the States. It's understandable how he can be overrrated by the British, but we do just the opposite. Remember, when every "expert" on this side of the water just about had Lacy DESTROYING Calzaghe. Brutally destroying the "pretender" from Wales. I got rather tired of the same predictions over and over again. They were overlooking Calzaghe badly to say the least. Needless to say thae had to eat their words, but began later to trash Jeff Lacy to justify themselves, which I think is despicable. Look, a Ken Buchanan type fighter, which Calzaghe aspires to, comes along every now and then. I think Calzaghe would have an excellent chance of beating Jake, and more than likely on points. No ko's or knockdowns. Calzaghe, with his speed, acurracy and incrdible workrate would be, unlike many fighters today, an excellent 15 round fighter. This would help him, and also if he resisted roughing it up with Jake. Just outbox and outpunch him, and it would be possible.

[China_hand_Joe]

I doubt LaMotta's head is going to hurt Calzaghe's hands more than most other fighters. It isn't literally made of granite.

Calzaghe has many times fought through with damaged hands, it is only when a significant break occurs it is a major problem.

Also Calzaghe slaps, so he doesn't get tired. This is one fight that I am more convinced about than most others.

[Amsterdam]

La Motta hasn't a chance in hell. It's not only that styles favour Joe, it's that La Motta is in all reality not that good of a fighter compared to his modern counterparts.

[Jack]

What exactly does LaMotta have to beat Calzaghe?

He doesn't hit hard enough to stop him, or slow down Calzaghe's pace.
He is too slow to land often.
He lacks the punch output to outland, even if he does find Calzaghe easy to hit.
His defence isn't good enough to stop Calzaghe's super fast assault.
He would be considerably smaller and only just as strong.



LaMotta has a lot of positives, but none of them mean he would win this fight. He obviously wouldn't get stopped, but this would be a horrible beating.

[Amsterdam]

What exactly does LaMotta have to beat Calzaghe?

He doesn't hit hard enough to stop him, or slow down Calzaghe's pace.
He is too slow to land often.
He lacks the punch output to outland, even if he does find Calzaghe easy to hit.
His defence isn't good enough to stop Calzaghe's super fast assault.
He would be considerably smaller and only just as strong.



LaMotta has a lot of positives, but none of them mean he would win this fight. He obviously wouldn't get stopped, but this would be a horrible beating.

Why wouldn't he get stopped? He'd get tatooed worse than Lacy and this is a peak/peak fight, so that means less Calzaghe hand problems.

I am not saying Calzaghe KO's La Motta, but a stoppage on accumulative damage is the most likely scenerio.

[China_hand_Joe]

Just tell them a stoppage is unlikely, compromise, and they're more likely to agree mate.

[cross_trainer]

Just tell them a stoppage is unlikely, compromise, and they're more likely to agree mate.

If you believe that he gets stopped, you should say so. This is a boxing discussion, not a debate to pass an agenda through....there is no need for wheeling and dealing.

[cross_trainer]

Why wouldn't he get stopped? He'd get tatooed worse than Lacy and this is a peak/peak fight, so that means less Calzaghe hand problems.

I am not saying Calzaghe KO's La Motta, but a stoppage on accumulative damage is the most likely scenerio.

Depends on the ref. A modern one, judging from the Manfredo mess, may stop it. Then again, Lacy took more punishment than LaMotta would.

Jake is a particularly interesting case. Like others have said, his strengths aren't the best ones to exploit Calzaghe's weaknesses. On the other hand, his high workrate does make it unlikely that he would be "Lacy'd".

[McGrain]

I doubt LaMotta's head is going to hurt Calzaghe's hands more than most other fighters. It isn't literally made of granite.

I think you missed my point. Joe Calzaghe can't throw little punches to keep Jake of, he can't slap and expect not to get hit. He is more likely to hurt his hands because he will find himself firing in full-bore punches more and more as the fight wares on, or from round one depending upon strategy. Cal "rests" his hands in most fights. He can't do that here.

[China_hand_Joe]

I reckon the head-snapping slaps should be enough. They aren't heavy, but they do the job. Those shots could discourage a lion.

[cross_trainer]

Those shots could discourage a lion.

This one, maybe:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[McGrain]

I reckon the head-snapping slaps should be enough. They aren't heavy, but they do the job. Those shots could discourage a lion.

This is why we differ where LaMotta is concerned. LaMotta is not a lion. He is a freak. Whether you beleive he is punishing himself or belive he is near invulnerable to punishment i'd say "fair enough" - but your approach to him is not accurate.

LaMotta has to be stopped. He can't be discouraged. You must stop him while he is upon his feet if you want him to stop punching you. Then put him down before he re-ignites.

There is no peak film of LaMotta, I think I am right in saying, but i'm happy to match him with the VI guy (allowing for the fact that he would be at 168 and not weight drained).

[McGrain]

This one, maybe:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

This may be a better answer.

Though I would just point out that this is post-courage lion (the bow is a give away).

[China_hand_Joe]

I'd have to see prime LaMotta before I can embrace the idea that Calzaghe's slaps would make no impression.

[Amsterdam]

Depends on the ref. A modern one, judging from the Manfredo mess, may stop it. Then again, Lacy took more punishment than LaMotta would.

Jake is a particularly interesting case. Like others have said, his strengths aren't the best ones to exploit Calzaghe's weaknesses. On the other hand, his high workrate does make it unlikely that he would be "Lacy'd".

His defence is worse than Lacy however, his punches also not of particularly potent power at 160, meaning at 168, either the same or even lesser.

Calzaghe is not afraid to eat one to land 3. La Motta would be ripped to shreds, Calzaghe is also much quicker than Robinson, that is undeniable, although the power comparison favours Robinson a bit. La Motta would simply eat far too many combinations, I'd say Calzaghe in 6 - 7 rounds from pure accumulation. He'd be landing at 80% or more.

[robert ungurean]

Why are certain Calzaghe fans on this forum such spanker's?

[Amsterdam]

Why are certain Calzaghe fans on this forum such spanker's?

Why does La Motta have a legitimate chance, when we have useful footage to compare impartially?

[box03]

I feel Jake would get beat too the punch all night long, but would turn up the heat in the later rounds trying to knock Calzaghe out. I dont think Jake would have enough to put away Calzaghe but I do believe Joe will get hurt late in the fight, all in all I think 80% of the time Calzaghe wins by decision.

[Bummy Davis]

I like Jake in a close one

[cross_trainer]

Why does La Motta have a legitimate chance, when we have useful footage to compare impartially?

I already presented some commentary on LaMotta's footage in another thread in response, as you may have seen. He wasn't the clumsy oaf you make him out to be.

[Amsterdam]

I already presented some commentary on LaMotta's footage in another thread in response, as you may have seen. He wasn't the clumsy oaf you make him out to be.

I haven't seen, but I'll check and if it's a good retort then I'll fire mine back.:good

[cross_trainer]

Calzaghe is not afraid to eat one to land 3. La Motta would be ripped to shreds, Calzaghe is also much quicker than Robinson, that is undeniable, although the power comparison favours Robinson a bit.

Calzaghe is not faster than Robinson--not of hand, and especially not of foot. He appears to hit almost as fast only when he puts no leverage behind his shots. If Robinson's form was equally bad, he would be far faster than Calzaghe.

[cross_trainer]

I haven't seen, but I'll check and if it's a good retort then I'll fire mine back.:good

Sounds good. :good

[Amsterdam]

Calzaghe is not faster than Robinson--not of hand, and especially not of foot. He appears to hit almost as fast only when he puts no leverage behind his shots. If Robinson's form was equally bad, he would be far faster than Calzaghe.

Robinson on video looks significantly slower than Calzaghe in hand and foot, I don't understand what you are watching...:think

[CzarKyle]

I'm not a big fan of pulling this card, but it appears that some people are refusing to understand other's points. Which proves a lot to me about certain characters in these forums. It's such obvious bias it's ridiculous. It's the very same reason I've been here for 2.5 years and have only had around 500 posts. I don't say much because it falls on deaf ears.

If we have the footage to make comparisons I suggest some people watch Jake Lamotta, then watch Joe Calzaghe (or the other way around, whatever).

I say no matter how good Calzaghe is, light punches do not work against Lamotta. Even if the slaps cause some form of head snap. I cannot imagine a fighter slapping hard enough cause serious damage (I just cannot see the impact being too hard from a slap, that is unless there is someone willing to undertake the calculations of that task). I have seen a lot of Calzaghe fights mind you and as much Lamotta I can get my hands on. One thing I did forget was Joe's speed. I underrated it a bit, but above all that I still can't see Joe winning. Later rounds will favor Lamotta. He's one tough guy. I think both fighter are good. Joe wasn't raised in the fighting system that Lamotta is accustomed to.




Jake Lamotta Vs. Marcel Cerdan (best footage I could find)
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Joe Calzaghe Vs. Peter Manfredo Jr. (once again, best uniterrupted source of footage)
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Mendoza]

I've been talking with certain Joe Calzaghe fan (some of you might have already encountered this character...). And I came to a disagreement. I think Jake Lamotta would embarass Joe Calzaghe. There is a height difference of 5'8" (Lamotta) to 5'11" (Calzaghe). I still think that isn't enough. Lamotta's chin would be able to get right through any punch Joe has to offer. Then Jake would be money shots abound in pulverizing Joe's lower body and capping those body shot combos with cranial crunching hooks. The only way Joe could possibly win is if he stacks the cards in his favor as per what Leonard did to Hagler in their encounter.

Vote, and if you feel inclined please do put in your two cents.

I tend to think Calzaghe is an all time great. If Calzaghe wins the Kessler fight, he’s hall of fame bound for sure. Here's the thing to focus on. Lamotta was not a big puncher. He isn't going to knock Calzaghe out. Lamotta could club Calzaghe a bit, but skills would prevail here. Calzaghe is a very consistent fighter. I like Calzaghe via decision.

Some Lamotta fans might roll their eyes, but in truth Lamotta lost a lot of decisions to fighters outside of Robinson....and Calzaghe has more skills than the other fighters who beat LaMotta.

[Senya13]

Calzaghe would school LaMotta, I wouldn't exclude late stoppage by the referee. This won't be competitive at all.

[cross_trainer]

Robinson on video looks significantly slower than Calzaghe in hand and foot, I don't understand what you are watching...:think

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The only time that Calzaghe's hands are as fast as Robinson's are when he's not getting any leverage at all with his punches. By that rationalle, this guy's faster than Calzaghe:

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[China_hand_Joe]

Watch the Lacy fight mate, fast punches with reasonable leverage in that one.

Robinson has faster, powerful short hooks, that is about it.

[Ramon Rojo]

Calzaghe would win

[KTFO]

Calzaghe by UD. Maybe no KD. But LaMotta's face would be ketchup.

[China_hand_Joe]

This guy has an intense dislike for Irish-americans and Italian-americans. His picks are always prejudiced when the matchups involve fighters like Jack Dempsey and Billy Conn (Irish-american) or Rocky Marciano and Jake LaMotta (Italian-american). Being Irish-Italian myself I can see right through his hatred. He dislikes americans in general but has no special enmity for fighters like Ali, Walcott, Charles, Louis. His bias is directed at americans of Irish and Italian ethnicity.

Calzaghe doesn't sound Italian, does it -questionmark-

[cross_trainer]

Calzaghe doesn't sound Italian, does it -questionmark-
Perhaps Italian-Welsh aren't very hateful.

[Ted Stickles]

Joes speed factor would come into play but remember that other fast guy Lamotta beat SRR........... So you never know

[Senya13]

I don't care about nationality. This is a styles thing, Calzaghe is all wrong for LaMotta, it's that simple. And I don't have what ('enmity'?) for Ali and Walcott?

[Senya13]

The only time I look at birthplace or hometown of a fighter is to see if I have access to primary sources (local newspapers) for him if I'm going to learn something about him.

[achillesthegreat]

I definitely go for Joe here. LaMotta only has strength on his side but Joe would use his strength against him. Calzaghe UD, probably really wide.