Who has earned himself a greater place in boxing history Vitali or Wladimir Klitschko

[Flurry]

Comparing their overall resume and the competition they fought and at what stage, how they looked winning titles and what impression they gave in the rare cases they lost - what do you think who would go down in boxing history as the greater man if their career ended today and nothing were to follow?

Mention a valid reason for your pick as well

[Serenata]

- Wladimir because he has much more top opponent fights
- Vitali is the tougher fighter but he weakend his body in his kickboxing time to much to have a longer reign.

I rank both quite high with Wladimir having a slight edge.

[Flurry]

Good and valid points made serenata. Im merely pointing out (and this was one of the aspects to be taken into account) what they looked like when they lost: Vitali only only lost twice, both times to world class operators at that, at each occasion he was leading on the cards and had to retire/was stopped by the ref because of an injury. Wlad on the other hand...


We can continue this on Monday as Im off for the weekend

[AffectedToaster]

i would edge it towards Wlad but theres very little between the two of them

[andyZOR]

Wladimir. Probably the overall athlete would be Vitali. Vitali adapted really well from Kickboxing to boxing...

I dont think Wladimir would of been a good kick boxer as his bro was.

[marciano1952]

Wlad

[punk]

I believe they will both be classed as equal when they are discussed in the future.

[Mazallan]

Vitali Lost to Lewis. Wlad has done nothing.

[Mendoza]

Hard to say. I do think those in boxing who have fought them both respect Vitali more.

[11player]

I believe both rank about the same in history. Vitali had more impressive performances but Wlad achieved more.

IMO, in history, they still did not crack top 15 ATG status, but are close. I'd compare them going down today having done enough to be on the level of Floyd Patterson and Riddick Bowe.

Thing is Vitali will have just another year to distiguish himself and climb the ladder in history, while Wlad should have about 4 years more.

[Beeston Brawler]

From a UK perspective - a lot of people know who Vitali Klitschko is.

Someone asked me when Haye was fighting Klitschko.... I said which Klitschko... they said - what do you mean which one?

The one that fought Lewis..... oh, there's 2?

[Farmboxer]

Vitali, however Vlad is second best.

Angelo Dundee (2004): “He was on the way to becoming champion against Lennox Lewis, the fight shouldn’t have been stopped. But, you know, that’s boxing sometimes. The cut wasn’t in a dangerous place. It wasn’t bleeding into the eye. The younger brother, in my mind, is the better fighter. He’s got so many tools, he throws straight punches. Especially that left hand. He must be a converted southpaw.”

[Farmboxer]

Stacy McKinley: “Vitali Klitschko is probably the best thinking fighter heavyweight since Muhammad Ali. He’s a very smart, intelligent fighter. Very smart,” said McKinley last week in an interview we did in New York City. “He can box, he can throw punches from all angles. He can move. He can take a punch. He’s tall. He’s busy. He’s very hard to hit. Good thinker. Oh, he’s a helluva thinker.”

McKinley got a close up view of the WBC Heavyweight champion in Berlin last year while working with Samuel Peter. “That’s what I said when I fought him with Samuel Peters. I said, Don’t try to think with this guy. Don’t try to out-box or out-think this guy. Get in there and fight this guy. But he want to sit back and try to out-think him. You can’t do it. And I told him, He’s probably the smartest heavyweight I’ve seen in the ring since Muhammad Ali. And I’ve seen a lot of good fighters. Larry Holmes and all them were good fighters but they weren’t good thinkers. This guy Vitali is a great thinker. It seems like he knows what you’re gonna do before you start to do it. So he’s very, very, very cagey. I don’t think nobody can beat him.”

When I ask which fight or fights of Vitali were most impressive which convinced him to become a believer, he replies, “Well, the Lennox Lewis fight. The left-hander he fought that beat his brother (Corrie Sanders). All these guys he fought. He’s just so smart. He moves good. A real intelligent fighter.”

Then I suggest something many pundits have not yet begun to accept or contemplate. Is Vitali one of the heavyweight greats of all time? McKinley does not disagree. “One of the greats and that’s what I said. I told him. I haven’t seen one that smart since Muhammad Ali. I told him after the fight with Peters, post press conference. Smartest I’ve seen as far as thinking. Most of the guys can’t think that well. He’s just great, man, a great thinker. Since Muhammad Ali. He’s that smart.”

Does Cristobal Arreola have any chance to beat Vitali? “No,” replies McKinley without a hint of doubt. “Three or four rounds he might get knocked out. He can’t beat that kid. Standing up too straight, he ain’t got the chin or the skills. This guy, like I tell you, he knows what he’s doing. And I was talking to his brother Wladimir, he was down in Miami. I said, Have you and your brother ever sparred together?

“Wladimir said, No, we’re too competitive. I said, Let me tell you something. That’s a smart boy. He said, Yeah, he’s very hard to fight. I said, You don’t have to tell me. He’s very hard. He’s the best heavyweight out there. I don’t think anybody can beat him.”

Does McKinley believe Vitali is the superior heavyweight fighter to Wladimir? “Oh yeah. He’d knock Wladimir out. Wladimir’s got good, basic fundamentals but he couldn’t do nothing with that kid. Kid’s too good, man. And I knew we were gonna have a hard fight with Samuel Peters. I said, Go in and put pressure on, cut the ring off and fight him. Don’t think with him. Don’t try to out-box him. Because you can’t out-think him. You’ve got to fight him. But he tried to think and you saw what happened. It was no contest. He quit.”

[Flurry]

I agree with the majority that there isnt much between them, but Id give Vitali a slight edge.
Hes never been down his whole career, he took huge punches from sanders and from lewis but never went to the canvas. Wlad on the other hand was annihilated by sanders, which probably shouldnt be held against him large scale as it was the wrong man with the wrong style at the wrong time, but still. Vitali lost two fights on injuries was ahead on the cards at the time of the stoppage each time.
Wlads overall wins look more impressive, hes fought more people and overall the slightly better comp, I assume.
Its very close but Vitali "looked better" when losing, Wlad looked horrible if only once his whole long career. The Tysons and Lewisses suffered devastating losses as well. Vitali hasnt so far. He really is the Iron Man

[Ivo]

Vitali Lost to Lewis. Wlad has done nothing.

If having 16 title fights - 14 (12 KO) wins and only 2 defeats is nothing, I do not know what is something in your book.

[kenmore]

Comparing their overall resume and the competition they fought and at what stage, how they looked winning titles and what impression they gave in the rare cases they lost - what do you think who would go down in boxing history as the greater man if their career ended today and nothing were to follow?

Mention a valid reason for your pick as well

It's a close call, but I think Vitali will be remembered as the better fighter. Vitali seems to impress everyone as being the mentally and physically tougher, meaner, more competitive brother. Vlad is athleticaly and technically superior, no doubt, but he just doesn't seem as redoubtable as Vitali.

Overall, Vlad's accomplishments in the ring are superior to Vitali's, no question. But in terms of overall ability, Vitali seems to have an edge of some sort.

To put it another way, Vitali has never shown Vlad's vulnerability in the ring. Vitali's lost only twice -- both times because of injuries in fights which he was clearly winning -- and he has dominated the vast majority of all rounds which he has fought in his career.

[Flurry]

It's a close call, but I think Vitali will be remembered as the better fighter. Vitali seems to impress everyone as being the mentally and physically tougher, meaner, more competitive brother. Vlad is athleticaly and technically superior, no doubt, but he just doesn't seem as redoubtable as Vitali.

Overall, Vlad's accomplishments in the ring are superior to Vitali's, no question. But in terms of overall ability, Vitali seems to have an edge of some sort.

To put it another way, Vitali has never shown Vlad's vulnerability in the ring. Vitali's lost only twice -- both times because of injuries in fights which he was clearly winning -- and he has dominated the vast majority of all rounds which he has fought in his career.


My words exactly, agree on all accounts :good

maybe the tread title wasn't that fortunate seeing the majority of repliers feel its a very close call between them and also given their resp. careers havent ended yet. There might be something decisive yet to follow that would distinguish one of them compared to the brother, give him the clear cut edge over the other that most here feel isn't yet quite there.

[Farmboxer]

Vitali's comeback was awesome. It's close but to me it's Vitali.

[Odo]

Comparing their overall resume and the competition they fought and at what stage, how they looked winning titles and what impression they gave in the rare cases they lost - what do you think who would go down in boxing history as the greater man if their career ended today and nothing were to follow?

Mention a valid reason for your pick as well

Vitaly!

Why? Because he was out of the ring for more than 3 years and has impressively shown his power since his comeback.
Because he usually wins a by either tko or ko.
Because relentless determination and passion can be felt whenever Vitaly squares off against an opponent.
Because he is the more charismatic one of the brothers.
Because he is Wlad's big brother and has avenged some of his losses.
Because he usually doesnt fight as tactcially calculated as does his younger brother who is a cold blooded chess player.
Admittingly,I am absolutely positive that a lot of reasons can be found to point out that Wlad has earned himself a greater place in boxing.
Anyway! I am not the most objective person out there.:D

[Flurry]

Vitaly!

Why? Because he was out of the ring for more than 3 years and has impressively shown his power since his comeback.
Because he usually wins a by either tko or ko.
Because relentless determination and passion can be felt whenever Vitaly squares off against an opponent.
Because he is the more charismatic one of the brothers.
Because he is Wlad's big brother and has avenged some of his losses.
Because he usually doesnt fight as tactcially calculated as does his younger brother who is a cold blooded chess player.
Admittingly,I am absolutely positive that a lot of reasons can be found to point out that Wlad has earned himself a greater place in boxing.
Anyway! I am not the most objective person out there.:D


all valid points you ve made there Odo mate :good and agreed there s several other good points that could be made in favour of Wladimir, depends on what character traits and talent assets one prefers.

Both are good chess players I believe :D

[Beeston Brawler]

I think Vitali easily.

Wladimir will always be a tough pill to swallow for all but his most ardent fans, IMO.

[martinez]

Vlad will be remembered. He hasn't opened himself complete yet. Don't get me wrong - I've been always Big Supporter of Vitali, but apart of being tough - Vlad is doing everything better.

[ashley]

I think the next 2 years will answer this question for us.....some big fights coming up for the guys and who wins the belts against the best will edge ahead.

[rapidfire]

Both are good chess players I believe :D

Really ? :D

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

:yep

[Bobby Weave]

Wlad will have a longer career, with Vitali's four year absence. Wlad is looking better and better, recently, so I think that at the moment we say Vitali edges it, but in five years' time, when Vitali is long-retired and Wlad has had several more big fights (and has possibly picked up the WBC/WBA belts) history might say that Wlad was the stronger package. Vitali cost himself too much time with the enforced time out, so his age will stop him gaining the overall greater reputation,, imho.

[Mr Butt]

vitali but it is close for me though,wlad could look so good if he had a little fire in his belly

[Flurry]

Really ? :D

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

:yep

I still believe in Santa Claus :yep

[boxexpert]

none of`em

[bodhi]

Well, I rank fighters mostly on facts like accomplishments, achievements, resume and longevity and less on speculation like skill (we all know that you can look skillfull against inferioir competition but who says you do so when you face better fighters?), h2h or "how a fighter looked".

So going by that Wlad must rank higher than his brother. Wlad is a great at hw, his brother isn yet - also he isn far off.

[Flurry]

I think most would agree the way a fighter acts or is made to look by his opponent can be vital too. The fact is Vitali was never knocked the fuck out like Wlad was twice (puritty being a stoppage loss due to lack of stamina no proper ko). Wlad was completely owned especially in the sanders fight something that has never even remotely happened to Vitali who btw fought the same guy a short while later. I think that a lot of people pay attention to such things.

That having said resume and titles do play a major role as I have said myself in this opening post of this thread, many here have said with regards to that there isnt much between them which is my opinion precisely

[bodhi]

I think most would agree the way a fighter acts or is made to look by his opponent can be vital too. The fact is Vitali was never knocked the fuck out like Wlad was twice (puritty being a stoppage loss due to lack of stamina no proper ko). Wlad was completely owned especially in the sanders fight something that has never even remotely happened to Vitali who btw fought the same guy a short while later. I think that a lot of people pay attention to such things.

That having said resume and titles do play a major role as I have said myself in this opening post of this thread, many here have said with regards to that there isnt much between them which is my opinion precisely

He lost to Brewster also only due to stamina failure. He used Brewster as a punching bag until he ran out of gas.

I stick with the facts, when two fighters are close I take speculation into consideration but just then.

[Flurry]

its nothing near to speculating when stating facts like Vitali Klitschko a) never lost by ko b) was never even put down c) in no fight of his was on his way to a loss as both losses he did suffer were due to injuries with him up on the cards on each occasion.

But we agree to disagree mate, as you lot would say "dös passt scho"

[bodhi]

its nothing near to speculating when stating facts like Vitali Klitschko a) never lost by ko b) was never even put down c) in no fight of his was on his way to a loss as both losses he did suffer were due to injuries with him up on the cards on each occasion.

But we agree to disagree mate, as you lot would say "dös passt scho"

Sure that's speculation. Look at Hamed. He beat everyone, never lost, beat everyone and when he met his first top class opponent he got beaten badly. The same goes for Vitali. The only class opponent he fought was Lewis. And he lost. All the other oppoentns weren't even average, the duivision just is this weak. You could make the same arguement for Wlad but he beat those men for a longer time now and more of them.

[Flurry]

No, the things I stated were facts, Bodhi, as you can look them up and they are beyond dispute. :yep

The speculation only starts the moment when you assume Vitali wouldnt have kept the rate up had he fought other guys than he did, as in your opinion he didnt fight anyone good until meeting lewis, a statement I would dismiss as laughable. He fought Sanders, peter, Donald and Gomez. he was leading on the cards against lewis and byrd. he was about to beat byrd just as handily as Wlad did until a torn rotator cuff stopped him.


he looked miles better than Wlad did against peter and he destroyed sanders who had made Wlad look a stand up puppet.

:good


Besides I also strongly disagree with you on hamed who was a brilliant fighter in his day and won multiple belts at various divisions beating a good handful former or then current champs to win titles of all four major bodies. Sure he was hyped an sure some opponents he fought were over the hill, as is the case with almost any upcoming fighter. Its very easy to rip apart fighters records btw I ve seen that many times, usually its only a matter of ones personal perspective/likings.

[bodhi]

No, the things I stated were facts, Bodhi, as you can look them up and they are beyond dispute. :yep

I don't dispute them, I just add that you shouldn't ignore the curcumstances.


The speculation only starts the moment when you assume Vitali wouldnt have kept the rate up had he fought other guys than he did, as in your opinion he didnt fight anyone good until meeting lewis, a statement I would dismiss as laughable. He fought Sanders, peter, Donald and Gomez. he was leading on the cards against lewis and byrd. he was about to beat byrd just as handily as Wlad did until a torn rotator cuff stopped him.

Sanders, Peter, Gomez and Donald aren't even mediocre fighters. They are poor. the only really good fighter Vitali fought until now was Lewis. And he lost. He may have been ahead on the cards but he still lost.


he looked miles better than Wlad did against peter and he destroyed sanders who had made Wlad look a stand up puppet.

:good

Yeah, he looked better. But you have to admit they fight in a different style. Lewis never looked as spectacular as Tyson either and is still a greater fighter.
Sanders blitzed Wlad. But then the Sanders or Peter Wlad fought were better versions than the fat versions of themself Vitali fought.


Besides I also strongly disagree with you on hamed who was a brilliant fighter in his day and won multiple belts at various divisions beating a good handful former or then current champs to win titles of all four major bodies. Sure he was hyped an sure some opponents he fought were over the hill, as is the case with almost any upcoming fighter. Its very easy to rip apart fighters records btw I ve seen that many times, usually its only a matter of ones personal perspective/likings.

I like Hamed, I don't take anything away from him. He brought money and interest in the lower weight classes and that was important but his opposition was mediocre. Today it's easy to become world champ. The only thing you need is a bit of talent and a promoter with influence. Winning belts only means something if you either unify, defend your belt for a long time or beat a real good fighter for it. The only fighter of note Hamed fought before Barrera was Kevin Kelley.

[Flurry]

Bodhi, there were a few more like mccoullough, vazquez, inks and a few others, id have to check boxrec to be sure, which would divert from the main topic at hand

I disagree on Vitalis comp as well, the four I mentioned are legit. Peter had wlad on his bum four or five times and lost a close decision, at the time Vitali took him on peter was the most dangerous guy in the division of all the contender around. Gomez unbeaten cruiser champ and, Im of the opinion hes at least as good as haye only difference he didnt get a shot at valuev to prove it, thats boxing business, its crooked as we know. Another difference: haye chickened out of the KLitschko fight like a smelly pussy while Gomez took the fight. In relative terms, he did a good job until the middle rounds but Vitalis was too much for him. Gomez in that form would likely beat haye and has reasonable chances agaisnt the chagaevs and povetkins of this world.
Donald a very slick and pretty fast elusive fighter who as we all know beat Valuev but didnt get the decision. Vitali was the first to stop him.
sanders a man who was very much avoided by the establishment, never got the fights to prove it, hard punch, very fast, brilliant reflexes, he demolished Wlad first class style, hes been the only one next to lewis (uppercut 6th round) to rock iron man Vitali - if only short termedly.
Interestingly sanders i think beat his countryman white Buffalo botha three times in the amateurs but it was Botha who was given all these title shots - because managers knew how very beatable he was

nay we have to agree to disagree, which is not uncommon on message boards.

[bodhi]

I disagree on Vitalis comp as well, the four I mentioned are legit. Peter had wlad on his bum four or five times and lost a close decision, at the time Vitali took him on peter was the most dangerous guy in the division of all the contender around.

Peter knocked Wlad down three times and two of those came from rabbit punches. The decision was not clese. Peter lost every round with the exception of the knockdown rounds. That's not close.
The Peter Vitali beat was at a career heigh weight and at times it looked as if he was stumbling over his own feet.


Gomez unbeaten cruiser champ and, Im of the opinion hes at least as good as haye only difference he didnt get a shot at valuev to prove it, thats boxing business, its crooked as we know. Another difference: haye chickened out of the KLitschko fight like a smelly pussy while Gomez took the fight. In relative terms, he did a good job until the middle rounds but Vitalis was too much for him. Gomez in that form would likely beat haye and has reasonable chances agaisnt the chagaevs and povetkins of this world.

Gomez was already how old? No spring chicken for sure. And no he did not good, in the beginning he wasn't getting dominated as much as later on but he was still getting dominated. And no he was not cw champ, he was a belt holder who never fought the best (Bell, Mormeck, Haye). Gomez may beat Haye (I don't think highly of him at hw) but surely not Chagaev or Povetkin.


Donald a very slick and pretty fast elusive fighter who as we all know beat Valuev but didnt get the decision. Vitali was the first to stop him.

No, he didn not beat Valuev. That was a close fight which could have gone either way. Such fights should be no contests like in the early 20th century.
Donald isn't that bad but he never was more than a fringe contender.


sanders a man who was very much avoided by the establishment, never got the fights to prove it, hard punch, very fast, brilliant reflexes, he demolished Wlad first class style, hes been the only one next to lewis (uppercut 6th round) to rock iron man Vitali - if only short termedly.
Interestingly sanders i think beat his countryman white Buffalo botha three times in the amateurs but it was Botha who was given all these title shots - because managers knew how very beatable he was

Sanders is one of the most overated hws of the last 20 years. Just because he blitzed Wlad. He was solid but when Vitali fought him, he had a one year lay off, was fat and untrained and said himself before the fight that nowadays he plays more golf than he does boxing. Sanders wasn't even a fringe contender for the most part of his career and no that's not because of the business but because he never was that good. The only things he had going for him were good power, fast hands and some size but that's it. I mean ten years before he got KOed by an overweight ancient Tubbs. :lol:

I wonder why you aren't mentioning Kirk Johnson. He was untrained and fat when they fought - I still can hear Merchant screaming "he harpooned the whale" when Vitali knocked him out :rofl - but better then every other opponent Vitali fought aside of Lewis.

edit:
btw. that those mediocre fighters are able to fight for a champion just shows how poor the division is. Imo the weakest division of all time alongside the 80s with it's equally fat and drugged contenders and the early 20s.

[Flurry]

Peter knocked Wlad down three times and two of those came from rabbit punches. The decision was not clese. Peter lost every round with the exception of the knockdown rounds. That's not close.
The Peter Vitali beat was at a career heigh weight and at times it looked as if he was stumbling over his own feet.

KD rounds are 10-8 rounds, Im not sure why you re dismissing this, Wlad was on his bum, if you add them all up Wlad won the fight by a margin of 3 rounds. Vitali made peter stumble, don't read more into this than there was, you re only as good or as bad as your opponent allows you to. Vitali was the first to put him down and out

Gomez was already how old? No spring chicken for sure. And no he did not good, in the beginning he wasn't getting dominated as much as later on but he was still getting dominated. And no he was not cw champ, he was a belt holder who never fought the best (Bell, Mormeck, Haye). Gomez may beat Haye (I don't think highly of him at hw) but surely not Chagaev or Povetkin.

Just a tad biased, if you ask me mate. As long as he was with Kohl he was the best cruiser in my eyes. That was long before Haye arrived on the scene. he beat the likes of scott, mayfield and tough dominguez, who much later fought valuev and even won a couple of rounds against a man two heads taller than him. How do you know he ducked those guys and it wasnt the other way round? At heavy hes beaten McCall twice (who even at that advanced age was good enough to beat guys like sam and Whitaker), Gomez also beat Virchis (slow but hard punch) and Sam. Again its easy to knock anyone s record. Give me the name of a fighter and Ill rip his resume apart


No, he didn not beat Valuev. That was a close fight which could have gone either way. Such fights should be no contests like in the early 20th century.
Donald isn't that bad but he never was more than a fringe contender.


Yes he beat valuev, we even had poll threads dedicated to the issue back in the day, a pretty comfortable majoroity expressed the opinion he beat Valeuv. I dont even rate such a win this outstandingly high as ruiz, holyfield, chagaev and haye all have beaten valuev as well, but stil, this win coming towards the very end of his career.


Sanders is one of the most overated hws of the last 20 years. Just because he blitzed Wlad. He was solid but when Vitali fought him, he had a one year lay off, was fat and untrained and said himself before the fight that nowadays he plays more golf than he does boxing. Sanders wasn't even a fringe contender for the most part of his career and no that's not because of the business but because he never was that good. The only things he had going for him were good power, fast hands and some size but that's it. I mean ten years before he got KOed by an overweight ancient Tubbs. :lol:

What does a fight ten years before the Klitschko show down have to do with it. He was there against Wlad and he was there when he fought Vitali. You say he blitzed Wlad as if he d become lucky. Who else has "blitzed" Wlad? And imo false, he simply had the wrong style for him, had he not fought Vitali in the second title fight but wlad again hed have beaten him a second time. Power, handspeed and size you grant him, well, thats a helluva lot of assets already. He was ill managed before, unlike Botha ad might have had a problem to motivate himself. He probaly was too keen on building up a reasonable golf handicap :lol:

I wonder why you aren't mentioning Kirk Johnson. He was untrained and fat when they fought - I still can hear Merchant screaming "he harpooned the whale" when Vitali knocked him out :rofl - but better then every other opponent Vitali fought aside of Lewis.

I never rated him very highly, still a reasonable win as imo were bean (gave a younger holyfield all he could ask for) and Hide, though he fought many bums, again like Gomez byrd and haye a former cruiser he combined speed and power but was simply overwhelmed by Vitali. And was visibly afraid of him


edit:
btw. that those mediocre fighters are able to fight for a champion just shows how poor the division is. Imo the weakest division of all time alongside the 80s with it's equally fat and drugged contenders and the early 20s.

Who should vitali have fought in your opinion?

[bodhi]

KD rounds are 10-8 rounds, Im not sure why you re dismissing this, Wlad was on his bum, if you add them all up Wlad won the fight by a margin of 3 rounds. Vitali made peter stumble, don't read more into this than there was, you re only as good or as bad as your opponent allows you to. Vitali was the first to put him down and out


Yeah, knockdown rounds are 10-8 but that doesn't change the fact that wlad won 9 rounds to 3 and that two of those knockdowns came from illegal punches.
Peter wasn't any good to begin with. The only thing he has goring for him is his power and a decent chin. He has nearly no skills, poor stamina, poor footwork, poor ringintelligence, poor technique.
Yeah, vitali beat him and it's one of his better wins but that actually shows how poor Vitali's resume is.


Just a tad biased, if you ask me mate. As long as he was with Kohl he was the best cruiser in my eyes. That was long before Haye arrived on the scene. he beat the likes of scott, mayfield and tough dominguez, who much later fought valuev and even won a couple of rounds against a man two heads taller than him. How do you know he ducked those guys and it wasnt the other way round? At heavy hes beaten McCall twice (who even at that advanced age was good enough to beat guys like sam and Whitaker), Gomez also beat Virchis (slow but hard punch) and Sam. Again its easy to knock anyone s record. Give me the name of a fighter and Ill rip his resume apart


Yeah, Gomez was a good cruiserweight. I never doubted it. He beat a few decent guys there and I never said he ducked anybody. I just said he didn't fight the best guys out there. We know that Kohl has a reputation of protecting his fighters of dangerous opponents and milking them as long as he can.
McCall is also a never has been. He has a good punch and a chin and got lucky to get an unmotivated, unfocused Lewis with a punch. And he beat him just once, right? When McCall was already over the hill.
I don't knock anybody's record. Gomez is a solid fighter but he wouldn't have been anythere near the Top10 in the 90s. He just isn't that good.


Yes he beat valuev, we even had poll threads dedicated to the issue back in the day, a pretty comfortable majoroity expressed the opinion he beat Valeuv. I dont even rate such a win this outstandingly high as ruiz, holyfield, chagaev and haye all have beaten valuev as well, but stil, this win coming towards the very end of his career.

Votes on here are popularity contests and nothing else. That proves shit. Fact is, it's a close fight and not a robbery or a gift.



What does a fight ten years before the Klitschko show down have to do with it. He was there against Wlad and he was there when he fought Vitali. You say he blitzed Wlad as if he d become lucky. Who else has "blitzed" Wlad? And imo false, he simply had the wrong style for him, had he not fought Vitali in the second title fight but wlad again hed have beaten him a second time. Power, handspeed and size you grant him, well, thats a helluva lot of assets already. He was ill managed before, unlike Botha ad might have had a problem to motivate himself. He probaly was too keen on building up a reasonable golf handicap :lol:

It shows that Sanders wasn't anygood when he was young and he didn't get better with age, just fatter. Yeah, he may have Wlad's number stylewise just like Foreman has Frazier's. Does it take anything away from Frazier. No it does not.
When he fought Vitali he was fat, untrained and unmotivated. just there to pick up the paycheck. Vitali won. The only thing Sanders ever did was beating Wlad.


I never rated him very highly, still a reasonable win as imo were bean (gave a younger holyfield all he could ask for) and Hide, though he fought many bums, again like Gomez byrd and haye a former cruiser he combined speed and power but was simply overwhelmed by Vitali. And was visibly afraid of him

See, you aren't rating him highly and he was at least as good as the four guys you mentioned.


Who should vitali have fought in your opinion?


Well, I could spit out names like Rahman, Ruiz, Toney and so on but that's not the point. It's not Vitaly's fault that his resume is weak. He does what he has to do, beating all comers but the division is weak. That's a problem for Wlad as well but he has established himself as the man to beat and is beating ranked Top10 fighters for the last three years, cleaning out the division. He beat more ranked fighters than his brother and accomplished more. That's why he should rank above him.

edit:
I have nothing against either Klitschko. And I am not a fan of either them also. The current hw division is pretty poor. I hoped with Povetkin and Solis there will come some excitement but they didn't deliver what I hoped they will, yet.

[Flurry]

Well, I could spit out names like Rahman, Ruiz, Toney and so on but that's not the point. It's not Vitaly's fault that his resume is weak. He does what he has to do, beating all comers but the division is weak. That's a problem for Wlad as well but he has established himself as the man to beat and is beating ranked Top10 fighters for the last three years, cleaning out the division. He beat more ranked fighters than his brother and accomplished more. That's why he should rank above him.

edit:
I have nothing against either Klitschko. And I am not a fan of either them also. The current hw division is pretty poor. I hoped with Povetkin and Solis there will come some excitement but they didn't deliver what I hoped they will, yet.

Never got the impression you had. No hard feelings


Maybe you jump to crushing statements about fighters a tad too quickly.
Allow me to do the same if only for an exemplary moment, concenring the fighters that you proposed

"Ruiz was a mediocre man, ex cruiser himself but not in the league of the byrdses and gomezes and hayes we mentioned, he got annihilated in 17 seconds upon ascending to heavy by tua, fought nobodies for years except and old and washed up tucker, got a title shot out of the blue, the only reason he got title shots was because he was King promoted. Fought round robins against other king owned fighters for years, struggled with valuev, but probably narrowly beat him sesond time round, lost the first fight. IMO Gomez, Donald Sanders all have much better assets at heavy what speed is concerned and power (sanders) my honest opinion. Ruiz at the same time one of the worst wrestlers in the ring whos made quite a few fights a horror to watch.

Continuieng with my "bash them tour" we come to Toney, of course a great fighter, but of the 90s mind you and several divisions down, after blowing up to the state resembling a balloon and after many years in which he had done absolutely nothing, he got a shot at heavy because there werent any PPV worthy matches around. He knocked out Holyfield is the good news. he lost to the same peter that you deem unworthy as challenger twice :yep:yep

Rahman: The only genuine heavy that you have named, with a second of true glory when he knocked out Lewis clean. A very susceptible chin, has lost by KO on a number of occasions (that is the man we want to challenge Vitali who has the highest KO/Stoppage ratio of all active fighters?), lost to the unconvincing ruiz mentioned above and couldnt beat an old Toney, kTFO by Wlad etc etc


A young rahman would have been a very good option, I heartily agree, the version we have now means nothing

End of "bash them fighters tour"

:good

[bodhi]

Never got the impression you had. No hard feelings


Maybe you jump to crushing statements about fighters a tad too quickly.
Allow me to do the same if only for an exemplary moment, concdenring the fighters that you proposed

"Ruiz was a mediocre man, ex cruiser himself, got annihilated in 17 seconds upon ascending to heavy by tua, the only reason he got title shots was because he was King promoted. Fought round robins against other king owned fighters for years, struggled with valuev, but probably narrowly beat him sesond time round, lost the first fight. IMO Gomez, Donald Sanders all have much better assets at heavy what speed is concerned and power (sanders) my honest opinion. Ruiz at the same time one of the worst wrestlers in the ring whos made quite a few fights a horror to watch.

Continuieng with my "bash them tour" we come to Toney, of course a great fighter, but of the 90s mind you and several divisions down, after blowing up to the state resembling a balloon and after many years in which he had done absolutely nothing, he got a shot at heavy because there werent any PPV worthy matches around. He knocked out Holyfield is the good news. he lost to the same peter that you deem unworthy as challenger twice :yep:yep

Rahman: The only genuine heavy that you have named, with a second of true glory when he knocked out Lewis clean. A very susceptible chin, has lost by KO on a number of occasions (that is the man we want to challenge Vitali who has the highest KO/Stoppage ratio of all active fighters?), lost to the unconvincing ruiz mentioned above and couldnt beat an old Toney, kTFO by Wlad etc etc


A young rahman would have been a very good option, I heartily agree, the version we have now means nothing

End of "bash them fighters tour"

:good

You are right with any of this. Still, all three would be on the Top5 list of fighters Vitaly has fought. They just did more and better things than those guys you mentioned.
But I´m not argueing Vitaly ducked those men but that today´s division is poor and aside from his great comeback after 4 years Vitali´s accomplishments and resume are both worse than that of Ruiz. Wlad´s just better and he´s younger and imho will dominate the division ofer the course of the next 3-4 years and maybe become a genuine Top15 heavy of all time. Vitali won´t do any of that.

[Flurry]

yes well, what they will continue to do from here I do not know, mate. Obviously with Wlad being the much younger fighter of the two, theres still more to come and the probability he ll best Vitali´s accomplishments in the future is pretty realistic. Thats why I confined the comparison to present day, up to date.

[bodhi]

yes well, what they will continue to do from here I do not know, mate. Obviously with Wlad being the much younger fighter of the two, theres still more to come and the probability he ll best Vitali´s accomplishments in the future is pretty realistic. Thats why I confined the comparison to present day, up to date.

Well, Wlad´s accomplishments and resume outshine Vitali´s already. the only things Vitali achieved until know is giving an aging Lennox Lewis a tough fight until getting stopped on cuts and beeing the first hw to comeback after four years and become a beltholder.

Vitali may look more dominant inside the ring but fact is Wlad is the more dominant careerwise.

I know I´m a bit harsh here but I just can´t see how you can have another oppinion.

[Flurry]

:lol:

we ve turned in circles and have now come back to the original question. The one that forms the threadtitle. The one on which we differ. For the reasons outlined in this thread. Not wanting to start exactly the same thing again I remain


yours faithfully,


Flurry,



HSV fan (seeing you re a supporter of the Munich Lions)

[bodhi]

:lol:

we ve turned in circles and have now come back to the original question. The one that forms the threadtitle. The one on which we differ. For the reasons outlined in this thread. Not wanting to start exactly the same thing again I remain


yours faithfully,


Flurry,



HSV fan (seeing you re a supporter of the Munich Lions)

Yea, I know. You should think about it again. Looks can be deceiving ;)


Always was and always will - also I have a little crush on the celtic football club as well - but at the moment I´d wish we finally get broke just to get over with the starving in the 2. Bundesliga, getting out of the f*cki*ng Arena and back to the good old Grünwalder. Stating over again in the fourth league would be much better than this mess with overpaid mercaneries and a rent we can´t afford.
You guys do quite well right now and from all the teams up there I would prefer you guys as new champs. :good

[Flurry]

You guys do quite well right now and from all the teams up there I would prefer you guys as new champs. :good

:-(
won't happen, we ve had too many injuries, vital players missing (Petric, Guerrero, benjamin to name a few) the last of which is Ze roberto, we did jump off to a good start into the season but injuries are taking their toll now and we ve not had a win in the last 4 league matches. It ll be like last year, like any year, I fear: Good first half of season will be followed by a slump.
No joy

[bodhi]

:-(
won't happen, we ve had too many injuries, vital players missing (Petric, Guerrero, benjamin to name a few) the last of which is Ze roberto, we did jump off to a good start into the season but injuries are taking their toll now and we ve not had a win in the last 4 league matches. It ll be like last year, like any year, I fear: Good first half of season will be followed by a slump.
No joy

Yeah, I know but you seem to have a good team spirit that can make up for quite a bit. Last year you were close to breaking Leverkusen´s second place run of 2002 (???) :lol: I pitied the HSV fans then. So, close ...

[p.Townend]

Wlad because despite the fact he has lost a few he has been far more active.Vittali is better to watch but Wlad has done a lot more in his career.

[Mazallan]

It is amazing how dominant the two fighters have been but it is a real shame the level of opponent has been so weak, but with no one else in contention they have gone about business in a great way.

I still stand by the fact that only one has fought a great fighter so he deserves the top spot. And it was a huge shame about the cut.

[PBC]

Too bad they dont fight to settle it. That could be the biggest fight next to pac v mayweather. I say Wladimir will be rated higher