Who would have been a favourite over PRIME RJJr at 160 + 168lbs

[Nawfal]

at 160 and 168lbs who would have been favoured over Roy Jones Jr?

obvioulsy when he was in his prime

[Lampley]

I think you have to go back to Hagler to find the first guy, and at that only at 160.

[Nawfal]

i think roy would outbox hagler.

[Danny Ocean]

monzon

[Lacyace]

No one. RJJ is virtually unbeatable at 168 and below.

[Lampley]

i think roy would outbox hagler.

That's certainly a possibility, but I think Marvin could bully the less filled-out Roy of 160. He wouldn't be discouraged by the speed, and he'd land body shots and eventually wear Roy down for a hard-earned 7-5 decision.

I make a distinction between classes because, at 168, I think Roy's added muscle would help him offset Hagler's aggressiveness. Those eight pounds were a huge benefit for Roy.

[ChampionsForever]

Hagler or Hearns (you may laugh at Hearns but I think hes reach power and speed would give RJJ fits). Im not saying either could beat RJJ but they would stand a wicked chance.

[Nawfal]

Hagler or Hearns (you may laugh at Hearns but I think hes reach power and speed would give RJJ fits). Im not saying either could beat RJJ but they would stand a wicked chance.

yeah hearns is fair enough

he has long arms and enough pop to catch roy

but the thing is, i think roy Kos him quickly.

[Arthur]

gene fullmer at 160
calzaghe at 168

[Lampley]

yeah hearns is fair enough

he has long arms and enough pop to catch roy

but the thing is, i think roy Kos him quickly.

Hearns would be a major threat, moreso than any of the people around for Roy during his day, I think, but I still think Roy would beat him 7 out of 10, at least.

[Lampley]

gene fullmer at 160
calzaghe at 168

Calzaghe? Really? I don't think this fight would be very competitive. Roy does what Joe does, only better, plus has added dimensions.

[Arthur]

Calzaghe? Really? I don't think this fight would be very competitive. Roy does what Joe does, only better, plus has added dimensions.

well, i might not pick Calzaghe as a favorite over Jones but i would give him a chance. He throws loads of punches and from every conceivable angle. He could pressure Jones.
I think Jones certainly was more graceful but i don't agree that he did everything Calzaghe did only better.

[rekcutnevets]

I know the op didn't ask for a clear favorite, so I may be a little off subject here.

I don't know if anyone in history would be a 2-1 over Roy. I don't know if you would get 2-1 on anyone considered to be great by many, versus any other considered great.

Jones has shown weakness in two areas in his career. Against people that will put him against the ropes is one area. He has shown that he has legs against Hopkins and Toney. He even showed he still has legs in the third Tarver fight. For some reason he doesn't always use them. Look at the 2nd round of his fight with Pazienza. Look at the Glenn Johnson fight. He let Tarver unload on him against the ropes in their first fight.

He also has a problem with Tarver's height, and jab. That jab disrupted his timing. I think this sometimes happens when you are used to being too fast for your oponent. You could see an example of it happening to another fighter when Mosley fought Forrest.

Iran Barkley may have had a chance against Jones, but he wouldn't have been favored.
Michael Nunn may have been able to bother him with his height, and jab. He would not have been favored either.

I did not answer the question, and am having trouble doing so at the moment. I don't want to give some generic sounding, Ray Robinson, answer.

[BxN]

Ray Robinson, Monzon or maybe Hagler could've given him hell.

[cuchulain]

No one. RJJ is virtually unbeatable at 168 and below.


True post, well spoken.

Probably a shutout, too.

[nervousxtian]

Honestly, nobody.

Roy was hardly losing rounds back then, let alone coming close to losing a fight. The first fight he had that was close was Griffin, and he would of won, if not for being DQ'd.

[Lampley]

well, i might not pick Calzaghe as a favorite over Jones but i would give him a chance. He throws loads of punches and from every conceivable angle. He could pressure Jones.
I think Jones certainly was more graceful but i don't agree that he did everything Calzaghe did only better.
Interesting. I don't think Joe could pressure Jones effectively over the course of a fight, and I don't think Calzaghe could ever match Roy's mastery of angles. To me, Joe lacks the attributes to fight a contrast with Roy, and given that Jones is so good at what he does, I think a contrast is just about what it would take for someone to be favored against him.

But I'm not knocking Calzaghe, who based on accomplishment is No. 1 at 168 in my book. And if he can beat Kessler, that will only cement his claim further.

[Shake]

Not counting Ray Robinson?

Personally, I wouldn't favor anyone. Hearns could outbox him, I believe, but Roy has the power and speed to make Hearns go all wobbly on his stilts. He never had that good a chin. Hearns could catch him coming in and end it as well, but I don't favour him. Either way, the fight would be over within eight rounds, I think.

Hagler has the best shot at 160.

Ray Robinson, though, peaking? You have to give it to him. Jones was wicked hard to catch, but there's a reasonably weak chin waiting there for you.

[brooklyn1550]

Robinson, Hagler, and Monzon would have been his biggest challenges, but Roy could beat all 3 as well. As 168, Roy is close to unbeatable.

[eze]

Not counting Ray Robinson?

Personally, I wouldn't favor anyone. Hearns could outbox him, I believe, but Roy has the power and speed to make Hearns go all wobbly on his stilts. He never had that good a chin. Hearns could catch him coming in and end it as well, but I don't favour him. Either way, the fight would be over within eight rounds, I think.

Hagler has the best shot at 160.

Ray Robinson, though, peaking? You have to give it to him. Jones was wicked hard to catch, but there's a reasonably weak chin waiting there for you.


No way, Ray was moving up to 160 to fight there, Jones was just staying there until he grew into his frame. Jones too big, too fast for SRR.

Does this mean Jones is greater then SRR? By no means.

[Shake]

No way, Ray was moving up to 160 to fight there, Jones was just staying there until he grew into his frame. Jones too big, too fast for SRR.

Does this mean Jones is greater then SRR? By no means.

I find myself agreeing with your astute point. I was wrong and you were right.




Yes, that's pretty much all. Sometimes you're just wrong. >.>

[eze]

No way, Ray was moving up to 160 to fight there, Jones was just staying there until he grew into his frame. Jones too big, too fast for SRR.

Does this mean Jones is greater then SRR? By no means.

I find myself agreeing with your astute point. I was wrong and you were right.




Yes, that's pretty much all. Sometimes you're just wrong. >.>


That's just how I feel, everyone has their own opinion though. :good

[Shotgun]

True post, well spoken.

Probably a shutout, too.
A shutout? A green Hopkins, well before he reached his peak, was able to take 4 rounds off him. A more experienced Hopkins would've done better, and Hopkins doesn't even have a great style matchup. Jones's alleged invincibility at that weight is based on two wins, both against opponents who don't match up well against him. You had an out of shape Toney who regardless Jones is an absolute stylistic nightmare for, and a green Hopkins who was at least 3 years away from becoming an elite boxer.

A prime Marvin Hagler would beat Jones at 160, because he has the style to do it, with his relentless, effective pressure and iron chin, Jones never fought any A level pressure fighters in his career. Two toughest matchups for Jones would have always been a relentless, top level pressure fighter with good power and a good chin, and a top level tall, rangy, boxer with an excellent outside game, he never fought those types of opponents

[Shake]

I know, and it makes sense. I hereby steal your opinion from you and make it my own.

Don't let anybody tell you SRR could beat Jones, folks. Just too light, too light I say.

D...did it work?!

[kg0208]

A shutout? A green Hopkins, well before he reached his peak, was able to take 4 rounds off him. A more experienced Hopkins would've done better, and Hopkins doesn't even have a great style matchup. Jones's alleged invincibility at that weight is based on two wins, both against opponents who don't match up well against him. You had an out of shape Toney who regardless Jones is an absolute stylistic nightmare for, and a green Hopkins who was at least 3 years away from becoming an elite boxer.

A prime Marvin Hagler would beat Jones at 160, because he has the style to do it, with his relentless, effective pressure and iron chin, Jones never fought any A level pressure fighters in his career. Two toughest matchups for Jones would have always been a relentless, top level pressure fighter with good power and a good chin, and a top level tall, rangy, boxer with an excellent outside game, he never fought those types of opponents

If you are going to add in certain factors then you need to add them all in.

Hopkins had an amateur career, not as extensive as Jones, but 100 fights is plenty. He was not peak when he fought Jones and took 4 rounds off of him. Jones however was not peak either, and was allegedly fighting with one hand half the fight. You cannot mention Hopkins greeness without mentioning all factors in play. Out of shape Toney has always been a bad excuse. He was no more out of shape than he had been at 168 before and he was dominant. He had just fought 3 months prior.

Hagler always has the best shot to beat Jones at 160 (that shot diminishes greatly at 168) and for my money, Michael Nunn had the 2nd best shot. I would favor Hagler over Jones....I wouldn't favor Nunn, but I wouldn't be surprised.

[Shotgun]

If you are going to add in certain factors then you need to add them all in.

Hopkins had an amateur career, not as extensive as Jones, but 100 fights is plenty. He was not peak when he fought Jones and took 4 rounds off of him. Jones however was not peak either, and was allegedly fighting with one hand half the fight. You cannot mention Hopkins greeness without mentioning all factors in play. Out of shape Toney has always been a bad excuse. He was no more out of shape than he had been at 168 before and he was dominant. He had just fought 3 months prior.

Hagler always has the best shot to beat Jones at 160 (that shot diminishes greatly at 168) and for my money, Michael Nunn had the 2nd best shot. I would favor Hagler over Jones....I wouldn't favor Nunn, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Well, Jones was much closer to his peak than Hopkins was. Hopkins was definitely a late bloomer. I'm curious when you think Jones's peak was simply because Toney was undoubtedly his finest performance, fought Hopkins in 1993 and fought Toney towards the end of 1994 so there wasn't all that much time that elapsed between those fights. Meanwhile Hopkins didn't really become an elite level fighter until years later

[China_hand_Joe]

Calzaghe? Really? I don't think this fight would be very competitive. Roy does what Joe does, only better, plus has added dimensions.They are completely different. Joe can't do what Roy does, Roy can't do what Joe does.

[Tim]

hagler and hearns would be the first that comes to mind. i would also give nigel benn and julian jackson at least a puncher's chance, esp. jackson, who P4P was one of the hardest punchers ever in boxing. but, even all of those guys would be at best even money. i don't think any of them would've been favored to be jones.

[Fighting Weight]

Well, Jones was much closer to his peak than Hopkins was. Hopkins was definitely a late bloomer. I'm curious when you think Jones's peak was simply because Toney was undoubtedly his finest performance, fought Hopkins in 1993 and fought Toney towards the end of 1994 so there wasn't all that much time that elapsed between those fights. Meanwhile Hopkins didn't really become an elite level fighter until years later

Hopkins was only considered a late bloomer because he lost to Jones back then, simple as that. If Jones hadn't been around Hopkins would have been champion back in 1993 and probably had the longest reign at 160 ever.

If B-Hop had moved up to 175 and taken on all comers for 7 years like Jones did, and moved up to heavyweight and won a title, then I suspect his career would have been washed up at 36 like Jones was.

[Shotgun]

Hopkins was only considered a late bloomer because he lost to Jones back then, simple as that

I think it might also have something to do with his life and death struggle against Segundo Mercado a few years after fighting Jones, an opponent that he would have dispatched without much effort with around the turn of the century. Hopkins progressively got better every fight following the first Mercado fight and peaked in the late 90's/early 00's

[kg0208]

I think it might also have something to do with his life and death struggle against Segundo Mercado a few years after fighting Jones, an opponent that he would have dispatched without much effort with around the turn of the century. Hopkins progressively got better every fight following the first Mercado fight and peaked in the late 90's/early 00's

To answer your original question, Jones peak was more about that 8lbs than a time frame IMO. He was close to peak against Toney, but I think Jones true peak was about 95-99 with his prime ending in 2001. After that it was a steady decline.

See, Hopkins to me peaked in the mid 90's as well. Just not many saw him do it. I think we tend to think boxers peak when they get a signature win...see MAB beating Hamed. MAB was prime long before then and was at the tail end of his prime against Hamed. But Hamed put him on the map in the worlds view. Hopkins beat Trinidad so late, people never saw him beat Glen Johnson who was 32-0 at the time like a rented mule years earlier.

[Fighting Weight]

I think it might also have something to do with his life and death struggle against Segundo Mercado a few years after fighting Jones, an opponent that he would have dispatched without much effort with around the turn of the century. Hopkins progressively got better every fight following the first Mercado fight and peaked in the late 90's/early 00's

That had more to do with altitude than Hopkins being immature as a fighter, and well you know it :yep

[Shotgun]

To answer your original question, Jones peak was more about that 8lbs than a time frame IMO. He was close to peak against Toney, but I think Jones true peak was about 95-99 with his prime ending in 2001. After that it was a steady decline.

See, Hopkins to me peaked in the mid 90's as well. Just not many saw him do it. I think we tend to think boxers peak when they get a signature win...see MAB beating Hamed. MAB was prime long before then and was at the tail end of his prime against Hamed. But Hamed put him on the map in the worlds view. Hopkins beat Trinidad so late, people never saw him beat Glen Johnson who was 32-0 at the time like a rented mule years earlier.

Yeah the Glen Johnson fight was Hopkins at his best, but even so that was what 4 or 5 years after the Jones fight? And the guys he fought and beat in the interim between the Jones and Johnson fights were totally unremarkable so it's hard to tell. Between Jones and Johnson he never fought anyone of repute, and while Johnson's rep has grown since then most of the guys he fought between then were journeyman types

[Fighting Weight]

To answer your original question, Jones peak was more about that 8lbs than a time frame IMO. He was close to peak against Toney, but I think Jones true peak was about 95-99 with his prime ending in 2001. After that it was a steady decline.

See, Hopkins to me peaked in the mid 90's as well. Just not many saw him do it. I think we tend to think boxers peak when they get a signature win...see MAB beating Hamed. MAB was prime long before then and was at the tail end of his prime against Hamed. But Hamed put him on the map in the worlds view. Hopkins beat Trinidad so late, people never saw him beat Glen Johnson who was 32-0 at the time like a rented mule years earlier.

Yep, great post.

[kg0208]

Yeah the Glen Johnson fight was Hopkins at his best, but even so that was what 4 or 5 years after the Jones fight? And the guys he fought and beat in the interim between the Jones and Johnson fights were totally unremarkable so it's hard to tell. Between Jones and Johnson he never fought anyone of repute, and while Johnson's rep has grown since then most of the guys he fought between then were journeyman types

And therein lies the problem. When the hell is Hopkins prime? Did he really have one? It's hard to definitively say that Hopkins wasn't close to his best against Jones, or as close as say Jones was to his peak, because it's hard to establish Hopkins peak. A year and a half after the Jones fight, he drew with Mercado....but then he destroyed him in the next fight if I remember correctly.

[Jinx]

Hagler or Hearns (you may laugh at Hearns but I think hes reach power and speed would give RJJ fits). Im not saying either could beat RJJ but they would stand a wicked chance.

Hearns' chin wasn't good enough to take the risks he'd need to take to beat a Roy Jones at 160...and Hearns' speed was nowhere near as good above 154, but obviously he carried his power up...Roy by KO over Hearns at 160, but at 154 Hearns could've done some things to Roy, who started at 154...

[Jinx]

those bringing Jones' chin into this should think about the fact that Jones was never even hurt from 168 and below...fighting bigger guys at 175 will weaken anyone's chin if caught with a good shot...

[Pimp C]

Hagler possibly at 160 no one in history at 168.

[MSTR]

That's certainly a possibility, but I think Marvin could bully the less filled-out Roy of 160. He wouldn't be discouraged by the speed, and he'd land body shots and eventually wear Roy down for a hard-earned 7-5 decision.

I make a distinction between classes because, at 168, I think Roy's added muscle would help him offset Hagler's aggressiveness. Those eight pounds were a huge benefit for Roy.
Roy was so good though that people didn't just not hit him, they didn't throw punches. His stats at these weight show that his opponents threw half as many punches per round as they did vs any other fighter. Incredible. This is a RJJ who didn't sit on the ropes without punching for long periods, and who was much more active. He was bewildering with his combinations. I saw his fight against Brannon again last night, where he hit him something like 150 times in 2 rounds and not even one shot was a jab. They were all power punches. The guy was the michael jordan of boxing.

[MSTR]

They are completely different. Joe can't do what Roy does, Roy can't do what Joe does.
Joe prime Roy was better in every facet of his game then Calzaghe. Better speed, more power, and just a much better technician. He could use angles and punches and combinations that Clazaghe could only dream of. Probably the only things JC would have over him is stamina, and at this weight RJJ was very fit and well conditioned.

[Lampley]

Roy was so good though that people didn't just not hit him, they didn't throw punches. His stats at these weight show that his opponents threw half as many punches per round as they did vs any other fighter. Incredible. This is a RJJ who didn't sit on the ropes without punching for long periods, and who was much more active. He was bewildering with his combinations. I saw his fight against Brannon again last night, where he hit him something like 150 times in 2 rounds and not even one shot was a jab. They were all power punches. The guy was the michael jordan of boxing.
True, although Roy never faced someone as effectively aggressive as Hagler. I think the fact that Hopkins was able to take a few rounds from Roy by virtue of aggressive movement with his feet suggests that an elite, pressure fighter with a great chin like Hagler might do Hopkins better and win seven rounds. But the odds on this fight would have to be very close, because surely Roy's speed would be a major problem for Marvin.

[MSTR]

True, although Roy never faced someone as effectively aggressive as Hagler. I think the fact that Hopkins was able to take a few rounds from Roy by virtue of aggressive movement with his feet suggests that an elite, pressure fighter with a great chin like Hagler might do Hopkins better and win seven rounds. But the odds on this fight would have to be very close, because surely Roy's speed would be a major problem for Marvin.
That was a very young RJJ though fighting for his first title. I guess I agree though then at 160 it would have been tough as Roy was not at 160 for long, and when he was there he was still developing as a fighter.

[aliwasthegreatest]

jones would be my favorite over just about anyone below 168 but there were many people who could beat him.

[China_hand_Joe]

Elite pressure fighter? Good chin? You know who that sounds like?

[kg0208]

Elite pressure fighter? Good chin? You know who that sounds like?

He would need to be an elite pressure fighter with a great chin. Not a good one. And by pressure, we don't mean volume, those are entirely different things.

[ssabripo]

it's hard to see anyone beating a prime Roy at 168. I really can't think of one that would come close to an upset win.

at 160, i think Hagler had the best chance...glencoffe like pressure with better technique and iron chin; I think Jones still would take a UD with speed and enough power to keep Hagler honest, but it would not be an easy fight. Hearns and Leonard would have an outside chance, but Hearns would most likely get KTFO'd before he landed anything, and SRL was a slightly slower and less powerful version of RJ, so no.

[China_hand_Joe]

there is not 1 thing that jc does betther then rjjThere are plenty of things he does differently, it open for debate whether those things are better or not.

[China_hand_Joe]

ofcourse he does things differently but in my opinion nothing better?
what do you think he does better mate?Volume punching (the slaps!), probing punches to open up opponents (though Roy maybe doesn't need to do that so much, he could just hit you :lol:), probably takes a better shot and he probably has a better mentality for digging deep (again Roy maybe didn't need to do that). Roy obviously has a quicker punch, better power and reflexes and so on though...

[Olander]

I never saw Monzon in his prime, so I can't offer an informed opinion on him.

At 160, I would make a prime Hagler and a prime Hopkins at least even money against a prime RJJ. Hopkins was still a bit green when he fought RJJ, who was pretty close to his prime. Hopkins still won 4 rounds. I would think that a prime Hopkins wins at least a few more rounds.

At 168, Calzaghe v RJJ would be the closest match I could think of, but I would slightly favor RJJ, perhaps 7-5.

[JohnThomas1]

Hopkins was only considered a late bloomer because he lost to Jones back then, simple as that. If Jones hadn't been around Hopkins would have been champion back in 1993 and probably had the longest reign at 160 ever.

Actually no and no. More than a year after Hopkins lost to Jones he only garnered a draw in his title shot against Mercado. He states that this draw is what gave him total dedication to boxing and did indeed hammer Mercado in the rematch, about 2 years after he had fought Roy . Hopkins was on the up and up then for many years.

[Thread Stealer]

At 168, no one.

Roy was a little green @ 160 and still improving. He'd be a slight underdog against guys like Hagler, Monzon, Robinson.

Keep in mind though that with the day before weigh-ins, he'd likely be a bigger MW than a lot of the MWs of the past.

[achillesthegreat]

at 160 and 168lbs who would have been favoured over Roy Jones Jr?

obvioulsy when he was in his prime
No man is favoured over Roy. Jones is 50-50 with the lot of em.