Describe Sugar Ray Leonard in one word

[KOTF]

Speed

[Sweet Pea]

Complete

[Flea Man]

Smug

[turpinr]

smooth

[JohnThomas1]

Complete

Unbelievable, i was coming into here to type that exact word :lol:

[GDG]

Complete

And there's the answer!!!!

[My2Sense]

redroosterBane.

[Flea Man]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^lol

[beecho1988]

greatest

[jaffay]

fortunate

[Leonard]

Great

[punk]

dazzling

[JudgeDredd]

Niceteeth

[duranimal]

Sly-deceitful-charlatan:deal

[redrooster]

Terry Norris

[GDG]

Terry Norris

That's 2 words!!!

[Stevie G]

Astute.

[lefthook89]

phenomenal

[Flea Man]

If you had to describe Rooster in one word it would be; Delusional

[Robbi]

Great.

[john garfield]

How 'bout one word for Sugar Ray Robinson?

[PbP Bacon]

Hustler :hat

[TommyV]

Complete

Exactly what I was going to say.

[duranimal]

Snake:smoke

[Drew101]

Since complete has been used, and was my first choice, allow me to describe him as...

Smart

[natonic]

finisher

[red cobra]

Balanced.

[Mr Butt]

snake, was spot on

[Robbi]

Sneaky.

[Chris Warren]

Cocaine.

[leverage]

Coward.

[prime]

Cunning.

[Bill Butcher]

Legend

[Bill Butcher]

How 'bout one word for Sugar Ray Robinson?

Unparalleled

[john garfield]

Unparalleled

You NAILED it, BB

[Dave's Top Ten]

Manipulative

[Mr Butt]

cherrypicker

[mr. magoo]

Sweet!!!!!

[MrMarvel]

That's 2 words!!!

But if he said just Norris we would think Chuck.

[janitor]

Devisive.

[GPater11093]

sorry to use more than one word but i was looking through some old boxing magazines and read a great article on the dual personality of Ray Leonard and Sugar Ray

but i would say

cunning

[Vantage_West]

smoke

[Xplosive]

fast

[MrMarvel]

Calculating.

[redrooster]

bitch

[Bill Butcher]

You NAILED it, BB

:good

I was gonna go for greatest (how original) but unparalleled came to my mind, its the perfect way to describe the original Sugar Ray IMO.

[rodney]

Clown.

[BENNY BLANCO]

Cocaine. That word would apply to fighters like Whitaker or Johnny Tapia.

[laxpdx]

guile

[Addie]

finisher

Simply awesome finisher, absolutely.

Leonard was a willful young man. Taking all Duran had to offer in the brawl in Montreal, coming back behind on the cards to stop previously unbeaten Thomas Hearns, and battling his detatched retina to fight Hagler in one of the greatest comebacks in Boxing history. He certainly was willful.

[Gesta]

Calculating

[ChrisKim47]

slick

[Unforgiven]

boring

[divac]

Con

[Stonehands89]

Leonard? Machiavellian.

Robinson? Imperial or imperious.

[Addie]

Wow, so much hate directed towards Leonard. I can't say I'm surprised, if it was Duran we were talking about, you'd all be ejaculating. :good

[Stonehands89]

Wow, so much hate directed towards Leonard. I can't say I'm surprised, if it was Duran we were talking about, you'd all be ejaculating. :good
Duran was the greater fighter, Addie.

Words to describe him?

On Sunday: ferocious
On Monday: stupid
On Tuesday: Legend
On Wednesday: uneven

Capice?

[MURK20]

fuckinfast

[McGrain]

fuckinfast

:lol:

[Addie]

Duran was the greater fighter, Addie.

Words to describe him?

On Sunday: ferocious
On Monday: stupid
On Tuesday: Legend
On Wednesday: uneven

Capice?

On Thursday: Conquered (referring to Leonard going 2-1 up)

[Bill Butcher]

Duran was the greater fighter, Addie.

Highly debateable.

I personally have Duran ONE PLACE above Leonard on my list & the only reasons for that were Ray`s unnecessary retirements & the amount of fights both men had, nothing to do with ability.

[Gesta]

Leonard? Machiavellian.

Robinson? Imperial or imperious.

Well said

[Gesta]

On Thursday: Conquered (referring to Leonard going 2-1 up)

2-1 up?, Duran won the fight that mattered.

[Robbi]

Wow, so much hate directed towards Leonard. I can't say I'm surprised, if it was Duran we were talking about, you'd all be ejaculating. :good

You need to settle with the hate towards Leonard from people. Take it like a man.

[Stonehands89]

On Thursday: Conquered (referring to Leonard going 2-1 up)
Duran, historically and physically speaking, had no business ever beating a great WW in Leonard. But he did -in the fight that mattered the most. Duran was a LW. Research that and tell me the last time that a natural LW champion defeated a natural WW champion.

[Stonehands89]

Highly debateable.

I personally have Duran ONE PLACE above Leonard on my list & the only reasons for that were Ray`s unnecessary retirements & the amount of fights both men had, nothing to do with ability.
Sure, ability is one measure. Leonard was a great fighter whom I rank very high as a WW. However, while I respect most opinions, I really just can't bring myself to respect the opinion that there is anything highly debatable about Duran's greatness as a fighter overshadowing Leonard's.

[Gesta]

Wow, so much hate directed towards Leonard. I can't say I'm surprised, if it was Duran we were talking about, you'd all be ejaculating. :good

Thats because Duran is a fighters fighter, while Leonard is not.

[Addie]

Thats because Duran is a fighters fighter, while Leonard is not.

A fighter's fighter does not bitch and moan with excuses every time they have a bad night.

[Addie]

You need to settle with the hate towards Leonard from people. Take it like a man.

Just telling it like it is, Robbi. :good

[Addie]

2-1 up?, Duran won the fight that mattered.

Wow. The rematch held no significance whatsoever.

[Addie]

Duran, historically and physically speaking, had no business ever beating a great WW in Leonard. But he did -in the fight that mattered the most. Duran was a LW. Research that and tell me the last time that a natural LW champion defeated a natural WW champion.

I'm happy such a knowledgeable poster like you, Stonehands, would feel the need to tell me shit I already know. I give Duran all the credit in the world for moving up to 147lbs and beating arguably the second best Welterweight of all time. I'm not trying to downplay the accomplishments of a great fighter like Duran, but he does get a lot of free passes for stuff. Robbi calls me out saying "I need to take it like a man". Perhaps I'd rather try and even stuff out instead.

Sure, The Brawl in Montreal was indeed the most significant of the three fights, but the rematch was very important also. People like to either completely disregard the fact Duran quit after being out boxed for long periods, or they just regurgitate the same excuses. "He was out partying". Yeah, okay. :verysad It wasn't as if Duran had faded over night, he just got outboxed, just like he did when he fought another cutie in Benitez.

Duran actually gets more credit for going the distance with Hagler, than Leonard did for beating the same man, albeit a slightly faded version, after a three year lay off after suffering a detached retina.

Can someone explain to me the logic in all of this?

[BENNY BLANCO]

Wow. The rematch held no significance whatsoever. Don't pay it no mind, he's probably one of those Duran fans who thinks Duran would beat Tommy Hearns in a pound for pound sense.

[Addie]

Don't pay it no mind, he's probably one of those Duran fans who thinks Duran would beat Tommy Hearns in a pound for pound sense.

I'll no doubt get shouted down by the Classic members for even daring to oppose the greatness of Roberto Duran, but I don't care too much. I'm not saying anything outlandish, only that Leonard did indeed avenge his defeat, and accomplished enough, I think, in his career to avoid being called a con.

Comments like that aren't fair, especially when we're discussing the best fighter of the 1980s.

[TBooze]

False

[Addie]

Fake

This is the kind of shit I'm talking about.

Leonard may have manipulated his status on occasions, and I can understand why that would rile up a few people, but going as far to call him a con and a fake? When it came down to it, he fought the best fighters that were available and he won more often than not.

[Stonehands89]

I'm happy such a knowledgeable poster like you, Stonehands, would feel the need to tell me shit I already know.
Well, okay, so answer the question I asked and dazzle us.

I give Duran all the credit in the world for moving up to 147lbs and beating arguably the second best Welterweight of all time. I'm not trying to downplay the accomplishments of a great fighter like Duran, but he does get a lot of free passes for stuff. Robbi calls me out saying "I need to take it like a man". Perhaps I'd rather try and even stuff out instead.

Sure, The Brawl in Montreal was indeed the most significant of the three fights, but the rematch was very important also. People like to either completely disregard the fact Duran quit after being out boxed for long periods, or they just regurgitate the same excuses. "He was out partying". Yeah, okay. :verysad It wasn't as if Duran had faded over night, he just got outboxed, just like he did when he fought another cutie in Benitez.

Duran actually gets more credit for going the distance with Hagler, than Leonard did for beating the same man, albeit a slightly faded version, after a three year lay off after suffering a detached retina.

Can someone explain to me the logic in all of this?

First of all, go take a look at Duran's record on the night he challenged Leonard. He already had almost 30 fights more than Leonard had in his total career. Okay? After that, answer the question posed to you already. Then, consider the last time that a LW champion defeated a MW champion. I'll give you a hint. NEVER. What Duran did against Barkley 6 years after he fought Hagler was unprecedented. Had Duran beaten Hagler, it would have been three times as astounding as Leonard's defeat of a -significantly faded- Hagler. As it is, Duran's loss to Hagler was damn near if not slightly more impressive than Leonard's win to Hagler. Why? Duran was in his 15th year as a professional, he was a natural 135 pounder, and he fought Hagler -one of the top MW ever, during Hagler's prime, over 15 rounds, and in the danger zone.

What was Leonard doing in his 15th year as a pro...? He was getting tortured by Terry Norris.

Is this getting clearer...?

[TBooze]

This is the kind of shit I'm talking about.

Leonard may have manipulated his status on occasions, and I can understand why that would rile up a few people, but going as far to call him a con and a fake? When it came down to it, he fought the best fighters that were available and he won more often than not.

Actually I changed it to fake, as you could never trust a word he said and every big fight he had from 84 onwards had something warped about it...

[BENNY BLANCO]

This is the kind of shit I'm talking about.

Leonard may have manipulated his status on occasions, and I can understand why that would rile up a few people, but going as far to call him a con and a fake? When it came down to it, he fought the best fighters that were available and he won more often than not. Not against this man though.:D

Addie when I post do you see this gif as my signature?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Addie]

Well, okay, so answer the question I asked and dazzle us.
I assumed it was rhetorical. We all know the answer.
What Duran did against Barkley 6 years after he fought Hagler was unprecedented. I appreciate that, but what has Duran's victory over Barkley in '89 got to do with his fights with Ray Leonard, and the disrespect often directed towards the best fighter of the 1980s? As a side note, Barkley was far from being a great fighter and the decision was every bit as disputable as Leonard vs Hagler.

Had Duran beaten Hagler, it would have been three times as astounding as Leonard's defeat of a -significantly faded- Hagler. As it is, Duran's loss to Hagler was damn near if not slightly more impressive than Leonard's win to Hagler. Why? Duran was in his 15th year as a professional, he was a natural 135 pounder, and he fought Hagler -one of the top MW ever, during Hagler's prime, over 15 rounds, and in the danger zone. It has became exaggerated since the fight actually happened at how competitive Duran was in his fight with Hagler. I give credit where it's due, and the simple fact a former Lightweight could fight competitively with a fighter of Hagler's stature and ability is no doubt impressivd. I make no bones about that. However, there was a clear winner, at least 3-4 points, and ultimately he lost the fight.

Leonard, in stark contrast, defeated a fairly good version of Marvin Haler in a fight he was given little chance in. The guy hadn't fought in 3 years, was naturally lighter himself, and had overcame a detached retina. I know you already know all of this. It's one of the greatest comebacks in the history of the sport, and a clear decision loss on the part of Duran isn't remotely close to topping it. That would be dumb.


What was Leonard doing in his 15th year as a pro...? He was getting tortured by Terry Norris. I think when you factor in how inactive Ray Leonard had been at the time though, it really affected his ability to remain at the top level for an extended period of time. I would like respect to be shown to both fighters, it isn't even flamers who come in and talk shit about Ray Leonard. It's really knowledgeable die hard fans of the sport often times, and I guess what I'm saying here is, explain it to me? I don't get why Ray is resented so much.

[Addie]

Not against this man though.:D

Addie when I post do you see this gif as my signature?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Don't even go down that road, Blanco. I appreciate the fact that Terry Norris is a great fighter in his own right, but he fought an absolute shell of Ray Leonard and only a deluded fool like RedRooster would claim otherwise. We all have out favorite fighters, but that doesn't justify being stupid.

Peak Ray slaughters Norris at 154lbs. Believe it.

[Robbi]

Ray Leonard was great. End of.

[Addie]

Actually I changed it to fake, as you could never trust a word he said and every big fight he had from 84 onwards had something warped about it...

Absolutely, Ray's past prime days defined his whole career. :verysad

[BENNY BLANCO]

Don't even go down that road, Blanco. I appreciate the fact that Terry Norris is a great fighter in his own right, but he fought an absolute shell of Ray Leonard and only a deluded fool like RedRooster would claim otherwise. We all have out favorite fighters, but that doesn't justify being stupid.

Peak Ray slaughters Norris at 154lbs. Believe it. Stop acting so sensitive right about now, when I posted the gif I did it in a light hearted manner which is why I added an emotiocon.

And just because a poster may have a unpopular opinion does'nt make him a "deluded fool". I also believe Norris beats a prime Leonard but do I come off as a fool whenever I post here at ESB?

[Robbi]

Peak Ray slaughters Norris at 154lbs. Believe it.

Norris would be taken to the electric chair. :good

[Duodenum]

Duran actually gets more credit for going the distance with Hagler, than Leonard did for beating the same man, albeit a slightly faded version, after a three year lay off after suffering a detached retina.

Can someone explain to me the logic in all of this?
Sure. Duran did the manly thing, and had the nerve to take on a prime Hagler over the championship distance with eight ounce gloves, and was actually more in the lead after 13 rounds than Saccharin Ray was after going the pussified 12 round distance with ten ounce pillows, despite the fact that Marv was much better against Duran than he was against Saccharin Ray.

You really think Saccharin Ray would have beaten Hagler over the first 13 rounds with both of them wearing eight ounce gloves if he'd been in the ring with Marv when bad ass Duran had the balls to try? (Are you sure Saccharin Ray could have lasted 15 rounds with the Hagler who took apart Scypion and Sibson?)

Duran proved it was possible to actually compete with the monster. When was Saccharin Ray ever going to try being the first to prove something like that?

[Addie]

Stop acting so sensitive right about now, when I posted the gif I did it in a light hearted manner which is why I added an emotiocon.

And just because a poster may have a unpopular opinion does'nt make him a "deluded fool". I also believe Norris beats a prime Leonard but do I come off as a fool whenever I post here at ESB?

I didn't see the .gif mate.

The Leonard vs. Norris match-up shouldn't really ever be referenced to unless it's to acknowledge the tragedy of the event. That fool RedRooster talks about it like Norris overcame great adversity to pull of his career defining win against an ancient Leonard. Laughable.

Norris would be competitive early on with his speed and athleticism, but he just can't take the firepower. Leonard's right hand would be too much.

[TBooze]

Absolutely, Ray's past prime days defined his whole career. :verysad


1976: I am going to retire

1982: I am going to retire

1984: I am going to retire

1987: I am going to retire

1989: I am going to retire

1991: I am going to retire

How could you trust him? He was not one us, he was a media darlin', a white collar lover, we did not need and we did not want him the sport, he ultimately polluted it, and did a lot more harm than good.

It was about style first for Leonard, he help mould this horrid era that we have today, where presentation comes first over everything. So unless your a 30-0 good looking media darling no one is interested in you and ready to give you a chance.

[Addie]

Sure. Duran did the manly thing, and had the nerve to take on a prime Hagler over the championship distance with eight ounce gloves, and was actually more in the lead after 13 rounds than Saccharin Ray was after going the pussified 12 round distance with ten ounce pillows, despite the fact that Marv was much better against Duran than he was against Saccharin Ray.

You really think Saccharin Ray would have beaten Hagler over the first 13 rounds with both of them wearing eight ounce gloves if he'd been in the ring with Marv when bad ass Duran had the balls to try? (Are you sure Saccharin Ray could have lasted 15 rounds with the Hagler who took apart Scypion and Sibson?)

Duran proved it was possible to actually compete with the monster. When was Saccharin Ray ever going to try being the first to prove something like that?

Rooster, is that you?

[Stonehands89]

I assumed it was rhetorical. We all know the answer.
... I don't think that you know the answer to that. In fact, I'm convinced that you don't. It's hard to find if you tried to google it (and you surely have), which is probably why you have deflected it twice already.

I appreciate that, but what has Duran's victory over Barkley in '89 got to do with his fights with Ray Leonard, and the disrespect often directed towards the best fighter of the 1980s? As a side note, Barkley was far from being a great fighter and the decision was every bit as disputable as Leonard vs Hagler.

It has became exaggerated since the fight actually happened at how competitive Duran was in his fight with Hagler. I give credit where it's due, and the simple fact a former Lightweight could fight competitively with a fighter of Hagler's stature and ability is no doubt impressivd. I make no bones about that. However, there was a clear winner, at least 3-4 points, and ultimately he lost the fight.

Leonard, in stark contrast, defeated a fairly good version of Marvin Haler in a fight he was given little chance in. The guy hadn't fought in 3 years, was naturally lighter himself, and had overcame a detached retina. I know you already know all of this. It's one of the greatest comebacks in the history of the sport, and a clear decision loss on the part of Duran isn't remotely close to topping it. That would be dumb.

I think when you factor in how inactive Ray Leonard had been at the time though, it really affected his ability to remain at the top level for an extended period of time. I would like respect to be shown to both fighters, it isn't even flamers who come in and talk shit about Ray Leonard. It's really knowledgeable die hard fans of the sport often times, and I guess what I'm saying here is, explain it to me? I don't get why Ray is resented so much.
Ray does deserve much of the resentment from boxing purists... like Hagler. Listen, boxing fans are very often hard-edged, street wise, and direct. That fake smile perfected by recent boxing celebrities like Leonard, like De La Hoya, is not appreciated by crooked-nose congregations anywhere. It is undeniable that Leoanrd was a manipulator and a politicians. How many people in your neighborhood idolize or even respect politicians? Leonard exploited and used people for his own ends -including at least one great champion who deserved more respect. Read "Sorcery at Caesar's" for an in-depth and very fair presentation of what he has done throughout his career.

That being said, Leonard was a great fighter. I'd say that he was a complete fighter. And I for one had no doubt of his in-the-ring heart after the loss to Duran.

[Addie]

1976: I am going to retire

1982: I am going to retire

1984: I am going to retire

1987: I am going to retire

1989: I am going to retire

1991: I am going to retire

How could you trust him? He was not one us, he was a media darlin', a white collar lover, we did not need and we did not want him the sport, he ultimately polluted it, and did a lot more harm than good.

It was about style first for Leonard, he help mould this horrid era that we have today, where presentation comes first over everything. So unless your a 30-0 good looking media darling no one is interested in you and ready to give you a chance.

You mean to say, Ray Leonard, this pretender, beat up on your favorite fighter? The 1980s was an unbelievable era for Boxing, and Ray stood out. Forget about all of the emphasis about his retirements, and media personality, when he got inside the squared circle he tore that shit up. Duran was humbled in the rematch, Hearns suffered his first career loss by knockout, and Benitez was out boxed and out punched. What a fighter.

[BENNY BLANCO]

Leonard did fight like a bitch in the Hagler fight by stealing rounds instead of actually winning them

[Stonehands89]

Sure. Duran did the manly thing, and had the nerve to take on a prime Hagler over the championship distance with eight ounce gloves, and was actually more in the lead after 13 rounds than Saccharin Ray was after going the pussified 12 round distance with ten ounce pillows, despite the fact that Marv was much better against Duran than he was against Saccharin Ray.

You really think Saccharin Ray would have beaten Hagler over the first 13 rounds with both of them wearing eight ounce gloves if he'd been in the ring with Marv when bad ass Duran had the balls to try? (Are you sure Saccharin Ray could have lasted 15 rounds with the Hagler who took apart Scypion and Sibson?)

Duran proved it was possible to actually compete with the monster. When was Saccharin Ray ever going to try being the first to prove something like that?
And guess which fight ilm Dundee and Leonard sat around watching and analyzing for hours on end in the months leading up to Leonard-Hagler? ...Yep. Hagler-Duran.

Duran provided a blue-print and he did it in a way that Leonard would never dare -when the dragon was breathing fire, in his own cave. The next guy I hear on the street call Duran a coward gets a slap.

[TBooze]

You mean to say, Ray Leonard, this pretender, beat up on your favorite fighter? The 1980s was an unbelievable era for Boxing, and Ray stood out. Forget about all of the emphasis about his retirements, and media personality, when he got inside the squared circle he tore that shit up. Duran was humbled in the rematch, Hearns suffered his first career loss by knockout, and Benitez was out boxed and out punched. What a fighter.

Leonard was a hell of a fighter, but his weaknesses outshone his achievements and he had a huge part in ruining the greatest sport ever. We are seemingly never going to fully recover from the damage Leonard inflicted on us.

[Addie]

... I don't think that you know the answer to that. In fact, I'm convinced that you don't. It's hard to find if you tried to google it (and you surely have), which is probably why you have deflected it twice already.

Truth be told, I didn't attempt to google it. I'm under no illusion about my knowledge of the history of the sport. Jesus, I'm 20 years of age and have been a fan for no longer than 5 years. That said, for some reason I must have skimmed past it, and assumed your original question was regarding a Lightweight moving up to Middleweight and becoming champion. It's never happened.

Not that it has any relevance to the point I've been making, feel free to indulge me.


Ray does deserve much of the resentment from boxing purists... like Hagler. Listen, boxing fans are very often hard-edged, street wise, and direct. That fake smile perfected by recent boxing celebrities like Leonard, like De La Hoya, is not appreciated by crooked-nose congregations anywhere. It is undeniable that Leoanrd was a manipulator and a politicians. How many people in your neighborhood idolize or even respect politicians? Leonard exploited and used people for his own ends -including at least one great champion who deserved more respect. Read "Sorcery at Caesar's" for an in-depth and very fair presentation of what he has done throughout his career.

Ray Leonard was a fighter first and foremost, and no politician I can think of knocked Thomas Hearns out.

That being said, Leonard was a great fighter. I'd say that he was a complete fighter. And I for one had no doubt of his in-the-ring heart after the loss to Duran.

I'm only concerned with Leonard, the fighter.

[Duodenum]

And guess which fight ilm Dundee and Leonard sat around watching and analyzing for hours on end in the months leading up to Leonard-Hagler? ...Yep. Hagler-Duran.

Duran provided a blue-print and he did it in a way that Leonard would never dare -when the dragon was breathing fire, in his own cave. The next guy I hear on the street call Duran a coward gets a slap.I could use a number of singular words to describe Saccharin Ray, but the example of Hagler-Duran allows me to apply this one:

Follower

[Addie]

And guess which fight ilm Dundee and Leonard sat around watching and analyzing for hours on end in the months leading up to Leonard-Hagler? ...Yep. Hagler-Duran.

Duran provided a blue-print and he did it in a way that Leonard would never dare -when the dragon was breathing fire, in his own cave. The next guy I hear on the street call Duran a coward gets a slap.

And now we're even crediting Duran for the Leonard victory? Sure, he watched tapes, but it was Leonard who was strafing Hagler with 3-4 punch combination's - not Roberto "excuses" Duran.

Duran fought bravely in defeat, whereas Leonard fought bravely in victory.

[Stonehands89]

Truth be told, I didn't attempt to google it. I'm under no illusion about my knowledge of the history of the sport. Jesus, I'm 20 years of age and have been a fan for no longer than 5 years. That said, for some reason I must have skimmed past it, and assumed your original question was regarding a Lightweight moving up to Middleweight and becoming champion. It's never happened.

Not that it has any relevance to the point I've been making, feel free to indulge me.


Ray Leonard was a fighter first and foremost, and no politician I can think of knocked Thomas Hearns out.

I'm only concerned with Leonard, the fighter.
You're young, so I'll be patient. You asked me why people resented Leonard and I told you why I think so. If you are only concerned with Leonard the fighter, then there is far less reason to resent him, but few resent fighters while many resent the man who is the fighter. And sometimes, there is good reason for that resentment.

Was Leonard a great fighter? Yep.

Was Leonard greater than Duran? No. And those who say he is are very often neophytes -just like those who claim that Ali was the greatest fighter who ever lived. If you are in fact a neophyte, hide it and get respect from purists in your new field of interest. A good way to hide it is to at least pay lip service to the idea that Duran is the P4P greatest of the Fabulous Four.

[Stonehands89]

And now we're even crediting Duran for the Leonard victory? Sure, he watched tapes, but it was Leonard who was strafing Hagler with 3-4 punch combination's - not Roberto "excuses" Duran.

Duran fought bravely in defeat, whereas Leonard fought bravely in victory.
Ah.... youth.....

DID YOU READ THE PREVIOUS POSTS ABOUT THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THOSE TWO HAGLER FIGHTS... or are you oblivious to facts?

Come on, man, show us something here.

[Gesta]

Sure. Duran did the manly thing, and had the nerve to take on a prime Hagler over the championship distance with eight ounce gloves, and was actually more in the lead after 13 rounds than Saccharin Ray was after going the pussified 12 round distance with ten ounce pillows, despite the fact that Marv was much better against Duran than he was against Saccharin Ray.

You really think Saccharin Ray would have beaten Hagler over the first 13 rounds with both of them wearing eight ounce gloves if he'd been in the ring with Marv when bad ass Duran had the balls to try? (Are you sure Saccharin Ray could have lasted 15 rounds with the Hagler who took apart Scypion and Sibson?)

Duran proved it was possible to actually compete with the monster. When was Saccharin Ray ever going to try being the first to prove something like that?

Spot on. :good:good:good

[Addie]

You're young, so I'll be patient. You asked me why people resented Leonard and I told you why I think so. If you are only concerned with Leonard the fighter, then there is far less reason to resent him, but few resent fighters while many resent the man who is the fighter. And sometimes, there is good reason for that resentment.


I can understand the resentment, but that still doesn't justify him being called a fake and a con. He achieved to much in a short period of time to be labeled as such.


Was Leonard greater than Duran? No. And those who say he is are very often neophytes -just like those who claim that Ali was the greatest fighter who ever lived. If you are in fact a neophyte, hide it and get respect from purists in your new field of interest. A good way to hide it is to at least pay lip service to the idea that Duran is the P4P greatest of the Fabulous Four.

Leonard was the more complete and better fighter in my estimation, but Duran's longevity and ability to move successfully through the weights rightly see him above Ray in the pantheon of ATG's. I've no problem with that at all, and can understand the placement.

To go off topic, if you could offer a little insight, why is it that Muhammad Ali is often resented by a large portion of purists?

[Addie]

Ah.... youth.....

DID YOU READ THE PREVIOUS POSTS ABOUT THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THOSE TWO HAGLER FIGHTS... or are you oblivious to facts?

Come on, man, show us something here.

Duran provided a blueprint on how to beat Hagler? He was decisively beaten on points. Care to elaborate?

I already know the differences between the two Hagler fights, and I still feel Leonard's winning effort was the greater performance, and greater achievement.

[natonic]

1976: I am going to retire

1982: I am going to retire

1984: I am going to retire

1987: I am going to retire

1989: I am going to retire

1991: I am going to retire

How could you trust him? He was not one us, he was a media darlin', a white collar lover, we did not need and we did not want him the sport, he ultimately polluted it, and did a lot more harm than good.

It was about style first for Leonard, he help mould this horrid era that we have today, where presentation comes first over everything. So unless your a 30-0 good looking media darling no one is interested in you and ready to give you a chance.

I'll grant you that there was the media darling side to Leonard. But to only see that and deny that the guy could actually fight is misguided. Benitez, Duran, Hearns, Hagler. Did he fight courageously in Montreal? Against Hearns? Not too many have a greater list of wins in history. Leonard imitated Ali who imitated Robinson and others to an extent. De La Hoya was far worse than Leonard in the context that you mention because unlike Oscar, Leonard was actually a great fighter. Greed got boxing where it is now. Leonard was just one of the vehicles, he wasn't driving the bus. There's a $40 pay per view fight coming up featuring JuanMa and the Cuban featherweight prospect (can't even remember his name right now which is kind of the point). They should be heading up ESPN cards. That's not Leonard fault. It's the greed of the promoters and the fans fault who buy that crap.
The trouble I have with Duran is the selective memory of his supporters. I rate him higher than Leonard, though not by much. Montreal is the greatest single performance I can think of. But New Orleans is completely dismissed because he quit. If he wouldn't have quit he would've been dominated if not stopped. Leonard - Duran III is completely dismissed but he gets massive credit for beating a very crude Barkley. And sorry, Hagler - Duran really wasn't that close although I do give him a lot of credit for psyching Hagler.

[Stonehands89]

I can understand the resentment, but that still doesn't justify him being called a fake and a con. He achieved to much in a short period of time to be labeled as such.

Leonard was the more complete and better fighter in my estimation, but Duran's longevity and ability to move successfully through the weights rightly see him above Ray in the pantheon of ATG's. I've no problem with that at all, and can understand the placement.

To go off topic, if you could offer a little insight, why is it that Muhammad Ali is often resented by a large portion of purists?
I called him Machiavellian... which is more of a complement than you are allowing. A fake and a con? I would call him neither.

Ali is not resented so much as his placement by naive lay persons is resented. He is too often placed too high on greatness lists and it gets wearisome. Most of those guilty of it have never even heard of Mickey Walker.

[natonic]

Spot on. :good:good:good

Revisionist history. I guarantee you Leonard would die in the ring before he'd quit in a fight.

[Stonehands89]

Duran provided a blueprint on how to beat Hagler? He was decisively beaten on points. Care to elaborate?

I already know the differences between the two Hagler fights, and I still feel Leonard's winning effort was the greater performance, and greater achievement.
Duran was the only man to bring Hagler 15 rounds while Hagler was champ. He didn't do it out of luck.

Feel free in believing that Leonard's achievement was the greater performance, most agree with you, but it should be understood why many believe Duran's performance was more impressive.

Tell me this, had Leonard lost that decision by a point or two against Hagler, would you still feel the same about it?

[Duodenum]

Duran provided a blueprint on how to beat Hagler? He was decisively beaten on points. Care to elaborate?

I already know the differences between the two Hagler fights, and I still feel Leonard's winning effort was the greater performance, and greater achievement. A: Do you believe SRL would have defeated Hagler had their match been scheduled for 15 rounds instead of just 12 rounds in 1987?

B: Do you believe SRL would have beaten Hagler over 12 or 13 rounds in 1983 with both wearing eight ounce gloves?

[Addie]

I called him Machiavellian... which is more of a complement than you are allowing. A fake and a con? I would call him neither.

I'm glad.

Ali is not resented so much as his placement by naive lay persons is resented. He is too often placed too high on greatness lists and it gets wearisome. Most of those guilty of it have never even heard of Mickey Walker.

In the event I was to review footage of Mickey Walker, do you feel I'd be as impressed as I am with Muhammad Ali?

[Addie]

A: Do you believe SRL would have defeated Hagler had their match been scheduled for 15 rounds instead of just 12 rounds in 1987?

I wouldn't favor Leonard, but I wouldn't have favored Leonard in a 12 round fight with Hagler in '87 either.

A: Do you believe Roberto Duran would have seen the final bell against Marvin Hagler had he experienced three years of inactivity beforehand.


B: Do you believe SRL would have beaten Hagler over 12 or 13 rounds in 1983 with both wearing eight ounce gloves?


I think he would have seen the final bell and lost decisively on the cards, much like Duran did.

[Gesta]

Revisionist history. I guarantee you Leonard would die in the ring before he'd quit in a fight.


I agree that once in the ring Leonard had alot of heart, as shown in the Hearns fight. The trick is getting him in the ring without waiting on someone to be out of shape or getting old.

[Addie]

I agree that once in the ring Leonard had alot of heart, as shown in the Hearns fight. The trick is getting him in the ring without waiting on someone to be out of shape or getting old.

:lol::patsch

[Gesta]

:lol::patsch

Leonard is a great boxer/fighter, there is no disputing that.

I do no know the art of boxing as much as you guys, but I know what I likes and Leonard (out of the ring) I do not like, or the WW version of Floyd. Duran and Hagler I prefer by a mile. I think that there is quite a gap between Duran and Leonard. Duran had the balls to take on a prime Hagler were Leonard did not, regardless of the result.

[Addie]

Leonard is a great boxer/fighter, there is no disputing that.

I do no know the art of boxing as much as you guys, but I know what I likes and Leonard (out of the ring) I do not like, or the WW version of Floyd. Duran and Hagler I prefer by a mile. I think that there is quite a gap between Duran and Leonard. Duran had the balls to take on a prime Hagler were Leonard did not, regardless of the result.

I don't think it was a matter of fear.

Leonard was a smart business, but he still has one of the more loaded resumes of the last 30 years of Boxing.

[Gesta]

I don't think it was a matter of fear.

Leonard was a smart business, but he still has one of the more loaded resumes of the last 30 years of Boxing.

Fear of losing, hurting his pride/legacy/image.

Fear does not just mean the fear of being beaten up.

Yes but his resume could be alot stronger, he was in the same postion Oscar was in, being the big draw everyone will fight you. Look how deep Oscar resume is compared to Leonards. I know people give Oscar shit but who did he not fight without waiting for age etc.. to creep in. Oscar fought a prime Hopkins. Oscar is not as good as Leonard, so why couldn't Leonard fight Hagler in his prime?.

How many times did he defend any of his titles?.

[redrooster]

Fear of losing, hurting his pride/legacy/image.

Fear does not just mean the fear of being beaten up.

Yes but his resume could be alot stronger, he was in the same postion Oscar was in, being the big draw everyone will fight you. Look how deep Oscar resume is compared to Leonards. I know people give Oscar shit but who did he not fight without waiting for age etc.. to creep in. Oscar fought a prime Hopkins. Oscar is not as good as Leonard, so why could Leonard fight Hagler in his prime?.

How many times did he defend any of his titles?.

he didnt. That's one thing his fans keep overlooking. Yet they have the nerve to tell us his resume is "loaded" :lol:

Nothing to could be further from the truth.

I just think it comes down to the fact leonard felt he couldnt compete with Hags back in 82, around there.

When he did the post interview fight with Hagler in San Remo, Hagler asked him not to retire until after a fight with him, that the world wanted to see Hagler leonard, which it did.

Perhaps Hagler would have carried Ray and allowed him to survive, much the way Johnson carried ketchel until Stanley forgot his place. He might, you know.

But none of that mattered to leonard. You could see Leonard was nervous when asked and that he couldnt give a straight answer. I already knew from his non verbal response he was giving and didnt need to tune in to that farce at Baltimore "It'll never happen" which really meant it will never happen so long as Hagler can fight and inflict damage.

Knowing as much as I know, SRl just didnt not have the sustained physiological attributes to with stand a full out assault by the Marvelous One. Imagine poor ray trading places with Tommy in 85. What a short fight it would be.

[heehoo]

The word that comes to mind is simply "great".

[Addie]

he didnt. That's one thing his fans keep overlooking. Yet they have the nerve to tell us his resume is "loaded" :lol:

Nothing to could be further from the truth.

I just think it comes down to the fact leonard felt he couldnt compete with Hags back in 82, around there.

When he did the post interview fight with Hagler in San Remo, Hagler asked him not to retire until after a fight with him, that the world wanted to see Hagler leonard, which it did.

Perhaps Hagler would have carried Ray and allowed him to survive, much the way Johnson carried ketchel until Stanley forgot his place. He might, you know.

But none of that mattered to leonard. You could see Leonard was nervous when asked and that he couldnt give a straight answer. I already knew from his non verbal response he was giving and didnt need to tune in to that farce at Baltimore "It'll never happen" which really meant it will never happen so long as Hagler can fight and inflict damage.

Knowing as much as I know, SRl just didnt not have the sustained physiological attributes to with stand a full out assault by the Marvelous One. Imagine poor ray trading places with Tommy in 85. What a short fight it would be.

Fuck off, Rooster. We all know you're either Terry Norris, Marvin Hagler or Leonard bagged your girlfriend behind your back.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Rumsfeld]

Flashy

[Flea Man]

Fuck off, Rooster. We all know you're either Terry Norris, Marvin Hagler or Leonard bagged your girlfriend behind your back.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


:lol::good

[Addie]

:lol::good

That avatar of Saad has always been one of my favorites. He's looking bad ass there.

[redrooster]

Fuck off, Rooster. We all know you're either Terry Norris, Marvin Hagler or Leonard bagged your girlfriend behind your back.



Don't like it when someone flaunts the truth in your face. Okay then, I'll let you go on believing in your fairy tales

[Flea Man]

That avatar of Saad has always been one of my favorites. He's looking bad ass there.

No doubt. I wantedto ue another one but it was too big.:?

[My2Sense]

That's 2 words!!!

Leave it to rooster to fuck up the simplest of instructions. :patsch

:lol:

[fists of fury]

Fuck off, Rooster. We all know you're either Terry Norris, Marvin Hagler or Leonard bagged your girlfriend behind your back.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


:rofl You nearly got me fired.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for the sport, Addie. Welcome to the club.

[Stonehands89]

I'm glad.



In the event I was to review footage of Mickey Walker, do you feel I'd be as impressed as I am with Muhammad Ali?
Tough to say. The film is scant, it isn't exactly of great quality, and he's more subtle. Go check out his physical stats and take a look at box rec.

[Stevie G]

No doubt. I wantedto ue another one but it was too big.:?
I think I've still got that issue of Ring Magazine in my loft.

[Holmes' Jab]

Flamboyant.

[duranimal]

And now we're even crediting Duran for the Leonard victory? Sure, he watched tapes, but it was Leonard who was strafing Hagler with 3-4 punch combination's - not Roberto "excuses" Duran.

Duran fought bravely in defeat, whereas Leonard fought bravely in victory.

Fuck off back too the circus tent:smoke

[Bill Butcher]

2-1 up?, Duran won the fight that mattered.

Only fight 3 never mattered as both were past it, the 2nd fight was huge & Leonard made Duran quit, less of the favouritism bullshit please.

[sugarngold]

Brilliant.

[Bill Butcher]

Sure. Duran did the manly thing, and had the nerve to take on a prime Hagler over the championship distance with eight ounce gloves, and was actually more in the lead after 13 rounds than Saccharin Ray was after going the pussified 12 round distance with ten ounce pillows, despite the fact that Marv was much better against Duran than he was against Saccharin Ray.

You really think Saccharin Ray would have beaten Hagler over the first 13 rounds with both of them wearing eight ounce gloves if he'd been in the ring with Marv when bad ass Duran had the balls to try? (Are you sure Saccharin Ray could have lasted 15 rounds with the Hagler who took apart Scypion and Sibson?)

Duran proved it was possible to actually compete with the monster. When was Saccharin Ray ever going to try being the first to prove something like that?

Please tell me you are not talking about the actual scorecards, the utterly ridiculous judges scorecards that had Duran ahead after 12/13 rds vs Hagler.... anyone with eyes in their head knows Hagler should never have been behind at that point & he won the fight very very clearly.

If we`re kidding ourselves that judges are the be all, then I could say I agree with the judge that had Ray a 118-110 winner over Hagler (after all, he`s a judge, lets just trust the cunt shall we ?) but I dont because I have my own mind & eyes.

What Leonard did vs Hagler was way more impressive than what Duran did vs Hagler, believe that shit.

[Bill Butcher]

To go off topic, if you could offer a little insight, why is it that Muhammad Ali is often resented by a large portion of purists?

They think it makes them seem more knowledgeable :lol:

Fuckin dumbasses.

[Addie]

They think it makes them seem more knowledgeable :lol:

Fuckin dumbasses.

When you ain't talking Marco, you're pretty much always right as far as I'm concerned Bill. :good

[Duodenum]

I wouldn't favor Leonard, but I wouldn't have favored Leonard in a 12 round fight with Hagler in '87 either.Nobody in SRL's camp has ever suggested that he could have beaten Marv over the championship distance at any time in their careers, or it would have come off. Earlier in Saccharin Ray's career, Hagler expressed a willingness to meet him in a shorter nontitle affair, and even this was rebuffed. SRL shrewdly discerned that his only chance to ever steal a decision over Marv was after he observed a decline in the older Hagler's handspeed and reflexes against Mugabe.A: Do you believe Roberto Duran would have seen the final bell against Marvin Hagler had he experienced three years of inactivity beforehand?Of course we never saw Duran attempt this with that level of idleness, but he was more of a freak of nature than SRL was. In peak condition, and at 30 years of age (as SRL was for Hagler), I believe it's entirely within the realm of possibility that he could have done this.I think he would have seen the final bell and lost decisively on the cards, much like Duran did.It bears noting that while Duran was coming of the massacre of young Davey Moore, he was still the older and smaller man when facing Hagler, being nearly two and a half years older at the time than SRL was in 1987.

My comment about his observations of Hagler's performance against Mugabe have helped provide me with a second single word to describe Saccharin Ray:

Shrewd

He managed to get as much (if not more) mileage and publicity out of what he did not do than what he did do.

Compared with Duran and Hagler, Saccharin Ray's period of activity as a top performer is incredibly brief and condensed, despite the fact that he never competed in less than top condition. Duran was far better against Camacho than he was, and Roberto's longevity at the world class level utterly dwarfs SRL utmost potential.

[Bill Butcher]

When you ain't talking Marco, you're pretty much always right as far as I'm concerned Bill. :good

:lol: :good

[Popkins]

Gifted.

[road_warrior_99]

Rabbit

[PowerPuncher]

DuranSchooler (its a word honest)

[TBooze]

I'll grant you that there was the media darling side to Leonard. But to only see that and deny that the guy could actually fight is misguided. Benitez, Duran, Hearns, Hagler. Did he fight courageously in Montreal? Against Hearns? Not too many have a greater list of wins in history. Leonard imitated Ali who imitated Robinson and others to an extent. De La Hoya was far worse than Leonard in the context that you mention because unlike Oscar, Leonard was actually a great fighter. Greed got boxing where it is now. Leonard was just one of the vehicles, he wasn't driving the bus. There's a $40 pay per view fight coming up featuring JuanMa and the Cuban featherweight prospect (can't even remember his name right now which is kind of the point). They should be heading up ESPN cards. That's not Leonard fault. It's the greed of the promoters and the fans fault who buy that crap.
The trouble I have with Duran is the selective memory of his supporters. I rate him higher than Leonard, though not by much. Montreal is the greatest single performance I can think of. But New Orleans is completely dismissed because he quit. If he wouldn't have quit he would've been dominated if not stopped. Leonard - Duran III is completely dismissed but he gets massive credit for beating a very crude Barkley. And sorry, Hagler - Duran really wasn't that close although I do give him a lot of credit for psyching Hagler.


Leonard was the fighter of the 1980s, I do not doubt or deny him that.

But he thought himself above the sport, he was never prepared to become one of us, he was aloof, he was false (my one word description of him).

And what is worse is that other fighters have seen his success and copied his out off ring style which has help ruin the sport from its last peak in the 1980s, to arguably, today, where the sport is in as big a crisis as it has been in since the 1880's.

[80s champs]

One Word? TIMING (good at timing when to fight his apponents) Great fighter though all the same.

[he grant]

egomaniac ...

[Duodenum]

Smarmy

[Titan1]

Uppity.

[MrMarvel]

Uppity.

Oh please. :-(

[TBooze]

Oh please. :-(

Should that be Ohplease?

[calumbo]

Money!

[Bummy Davis]

ILL....in a good way