George Foreman: What Was, What Could've Been, Nothing Short Of Mind Boggling

[Chris Warren]

With George Foreman III, better known as "Monk," about to fight for the third time as a pro in a few weeks, it's hard not to think about what a wrecking machine his father was.

When considering some of the most amazing feats in heavyweight history there are two that must rank at or near the top of everybodies’ list. Maybe the most impressive feat in boxing history is Joe Louis's almost 12 year reign as heavyweight champ in which he made 25 consecutive title defenses before retiring in 1949. As most are aware Louis didn't fight for over a two year span during his reign because of World War II, but even if you exclude that he held the title for nearly 10 years.

Rocky Marciano retiring undefeated in 1955 at 49-0 is probably boxing’s most known record and number. Since then only two former champs have reached 40 wins before suffering their first setback. In this context only legitimate or lineal champs are considered, not the Brian Nielsens of the boxing world. In 1974 George Foreman (40-0) was upset in his third title defense by Muhammad Ali, and Larry Holmes (48-0) was on the verge of equaling Marciano's record in 1985 when he was upset by reigning light heavyweight champ Michael Spinks in bout 49.

Obviously Mike Tyson being the youngest to ever win the heavyweight title at 20 and George Foreman the oldest at 45 are extraordinary feats. That said, there's one monumental feat accomplished by a former heavyweight great that ranks pretty high as well and is routinely overlooked. The fighter I'm talking about can actually lay claim to three stellar achievements during his boxing career that no other heavyweight great can come close to surpassing. Some greats have done one or two things that separate them from other fighters, but not three on the magnitude of this fighter. Had he won the signature fight of his 81-bout career a strong case can be made supporting him as the greatest heavyweight champ of all time.

[Chris Warren]

Some may view Jack Dempsey's destruction of old and out of shape Jess Willard to win the title as impressive as Foreman's title winning effort, but it's not, regardless of how one may try and spin it. Willard was certainly no Joe Frazier nor is he ranked among the top-20 heavyweight greats in boxing history by any boxing historian, whereas Frazier is without question among the all-time top ten heavyweight greats. Willard didn't turn pro until he was 29, he quit in one bout early in his career because he wasn't in shape, hadn't fought in three plus years and only once in the last four prior to defending his title against Dempsey. That takes nothing away from Dempsey's signature performance, but Willard didn't offer nearly the level of opposition that Foreman was confronted with in Frazier.



Rocky Marciano's one punch knockout of Jersey Joe Walcott was impressive, but Walcott was 38 and Marciano was trailing in the bout when he ended it with one right to Walcott's jaw in the 13th round. Sonny Liston's first round knockout over heavyweight champ Floyd Patterson was nothing short of frightening. The reason it doesn't equal Foreman's effort is two fold. One, Patterson was previously stopped by Ingemar Johansson and was down more times than any other heavyweight champ in history. Two, Liston outweighed Patterson by 24 pounds, while Foreman only outweighed Frazier by three.



The only other destruction close to Foreman's, is Mike Tyson's one round knockout over Michael Spinks. Spinks at 31 was no Joe Frazier and made his mark fighting as a light heavyweight in 28 of his 32 career bouts. If there's another example of the title changing hands since Corbett beat Sullivan where the defending champion was as highly thought of as Frazier and lost so convincingly, I don't know of it.



An overwhelming case can be made that Foreman beat the most formidable defending champ ever, in Frazier, to win the heavyweight title. Jack Johnson beat Tommy Burns to capture it, we know about the Willard who Dempsey beat. Tunney beat a past his peak Dempsey. Louis beat a 10-1 underdog in James Braddock. Marciano beat an old Walcott to claim the title. Sonny Liston beat Floyd Patterson who was too small for him and had been down many times before they fought. Cassius Clay beat an old Liston. Joe Frazier beat Ali after a 43 month long layoff. Larry Holmes beat Ken Norton who was 34 and pulverized by Foreman four years earlier. As far as Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis and either one of the Klitschko brothers, not one of them has ever fought a title challenger on the level of the undefeated Frazier that Foreman won the title from, or the Foreman that Muhammad Ali beat to regain it. The common theme here is George Foreman is part of the mix on both accounts.



On November 5th 1994 at age 45, Foreman won the heavyweight title for the second time, becoming the oldest fighter in history to ever claim a world title. This occurred 17 years after Foreman retired in March of 1977, with a career record of (45-2) after he lost a decision to Jimmy Young as the top ranked heavyweight in the world.



Exactly 10 years after retiring Foreman fought for the first time in March of 1987 to begin his comeback. Four years later he challenged undisputed champion Evander Holyfield (25-0) at age 42 hoping to reclaim the title he lost to Muhammad Ali in 1974. Holyfield won a 12-round unanimous to retain the title and handed George the first loss of his comeback. Foreman refused to look at the loss to Holyfield as anything more than a minor setback and continued to fight.



Three and a half years later he challenged Michael Moorer (35-0) who decisioned Holyfield in his last fight to win the title. For nine rounds Moorer had his way with the 45 year-old Foreman, and was leading on all three of the judges’ scorecards. Then at 2:03 of the tenth round, Foreman caught Moorer with a short right on the chin and knocked him out to make history. Moorer admitted after the fight he never even saw the punch that knocked him out.



Over the next three years Foreman made three defenses of the lineal heavyweight title. In what turned out to be his last career bout and fourth defense of the title, he lost a highly controversial majority decision to Shannon Briggs (29-1) along with the title. Even at age 48 in a fight he'd lost, Foreman's awesome strength and toughness were on display. In Briggs’ next fight four months later, he was stopped by Lennox Lewis in the fifth round. Yet Briggs hurt Lewis badly in the first round, something he hadn't done to Foreman once in 12 rounds. Foreman never fought again after fighting Briggs and his career record stands at 76-5 (68).

[McGrain]

...so basically if Foreman didn't get his head handed to him by Ali, he would rank higher? Have you thought about writing articles for the front page?

[Flea Man]

Can't understand how you're such a dick but are capable of writing FANTASTIC articles like this. One note; you say you can't think of another fight where a champion was as highly regarded as Frazier yet lost so emphatically. Ali vs Foreman is the ultimate HW win in my opinion, due to Foremans standing as possibly the most intimidating and destructive force ever seen in the division. Although Kid Dynamite is in with a shout. GreAt article gonna read part 2 now :good

[Flea Man]

Also, Ali obviously had fights prior to Frazier, it wasn't after one long 43 month layoff. A few minor quibbles in an otherwise engaging read.

[PetethePrince]

Great article. Even though you're hard on your case and sometimes go to the extreme I find you right on with Foreman. He gets way too little credit here. How do people really rate Liston over him? Don't get it... it's all based on H2H really because Foreman did more and should be ranked ahead of him.

[Chris Warren]

Well PeteThePrince some times I am blunt but I always call things they way they are. But thank you for the response and it is good to see you think Foreman is underrated here. Liston beat Floyd Patterson a blown up super middleweight and Cleveland Williams a club fighter who punching power is overrated and to most here that puts him above Foreman.

I also find it funny when people here or other forums or on the street will say Tyson, Louis, Marciano could punch harder than Foreman. Holyfield tasted Tyson's and Foreman's power and said Foreman hit harder, Ali has stated Foreman hit harder than Liston and Joe Louis and Jack Dempsey said they never seen a heavyweight punch as hard as Foreman. These guys boxed so I am sure they know more about the sport than we people do.

[PbP Bacon]

Good stuff and right on!!

[PetethePrince]

Well PeteThePrince some times I am blunt but I always call things they way they are. But thank you for the response and it is good to see you think Foreman is underrated here. Liston beat Floyd Patterson a blown up super middleweight and Cleveland Williams a club fighter who punching power is overrated and to most here that puts him above Foreman.

I also find it funny when people here or other forums or on the street will say Tyson, Louis, Marciano could punch harder than Foreman. Holyfield tasted Tyson's and Foreman's power and said Foreman hit harder, Ali has stated Foreman hit harder than Liston and Joe Louis and Jack Dempsey said they never seen a heavyweight punch as hard as Foreman. These guys boxed so I am sure they know more about the sport than we people do.

Yep, the Tyson fans get crazy. But his power can be confused with his explosiveness, I guess. Foreman's raw power was enormous, and his strength was great too. You are right on a lot. On ABC world sports Ali said he thought Frazier hit harder than Foreman. At the time he was probably boosting the fighter who beat him, but he did state that Foreman was the strongest fighter. Clearly, Foreman's power was immense. Holyfield did say that, I remember seeing that on Foreman's Ringside edition. A good watch. I think you're a bit hard on Cleveland Williams. He was a good fighter with solid power. But respectively, I agree that Liston's opponents get extra praise in comparison to Foreman who took out Top 20-25 ATG fighters like it was nothing... in this case you get the excuse making, especially for Frazier to diminish that win. Some suggest that a prime Frazier could beat Foreman... after that sort of destruction it's hard to really argue that but some will and do...

[My2Sense]

Can't understand how you're such a dick but are capable of writing FANTASTIC articles like this.

I never knew "Chris ******" was really Frank Lotierzo. :think

Shocking to find that Lotierzo is such a racist douchebag. :lol:

[Flea Man]

I never knew "Chris ******" was really Frank Lotierzo. :think

Shocking to find that Lotierzo is such a racist douchebag. :lol:

Oh, has he nicked it then? You're saying he didn't write it? Wouldn't surprise me.

Easy bit of research; [Only registered and activated users can see links]

Is this you Chris ******? Because I can e-mail this guy and see whether he posts on ESB under your name? If not you are a plagarist and should correct others when they praise you for your writing.

[Seamus]

I have never been as impressed with Foreman as many seem to be. Sure, he was a great heavyweight, but extremely flawed and protected early on. Sometimes, I'm not sure that the 90's version wasn't more effective than the 70's version. What the earlier Foreman lacked was greater in defecit than what the 90's Foreman had gained, patience, gameplan, pacing and even defense. And he was just lucky that only Savarese, Alex Stewart, Briggs and Schulz gave him such tough fights. He gracefully avoided Lewis, Tua, Bowe and even Golota during his brief peak. And if Morrison's less than fancy footwork and ability to punch while moving were enough to defeat him, a fighter like Vitaly Klitschko would have slaughtered him.

[My2Sense]

Oh, has he nicked it then?

Of course not. Chris ****** has always been an honest, reputable poster. :lol:


If not you are a plagarist and should correct others when they praise you for your writing.

Except he's put everyone on this forum on "ignore". He doesn't even know anyone has replied to this thread yet. :lol:

[Sweet Pea]

:lol:Damn, I was about to give him his props on that post as well. It seemed a bit out of character for him to remark on Marciano's accomplishments without a bundle of disdain.

[Flea Man]

Of course not. Chris ****** has always been an honest, reputable poster. :lol:




Except he's put everyone on this forum on "ignore". He doesn't even know anyone has replied to this thread yet. :lol:

:lol: Fuckin dick.

What is it with people plagarising lately? That ST guy did it, changed his name to BoxingGloves1 and then changed it back...............seemed like a good addition to the Classic too, ended up being another Rooster.

[Sweet Pea]

:lol: Fuckin dick.

What is it with people plagarising lately? That ST guy did it, changed his name to BoxingGloves1 and then changed it back...............seemed like a good addition to the Classic too, ended up being another Rooster.:roflI know really, fuck that guy. I mean, what the fuck? That is some pretty funny shit, though.

[Flea Man]

It is funny that people are that sad. They have literally nothing to do with their lives, even when they come on here they are wasting their time. The kinda' people that nuthug on Tony The Rapist Ayala (what is it with that clique?) I mean shit......if I don't know something or am unaware of the facts about a discussion, I say, and there's no problem with that. That's howyou learn.

But these peeps who endlessly debate about things they don't have a clue, no wonder they get massacred:good

[fists of fury]

Guys...I read the first three lines and realised this was ripped from somewhere. What took you lot so long? :lol:

It is a good article though.

[fists of fury]

I also find it funny when people here or other forums or on the street will say Tyson, Louis, Marciano could punch harder than Foreman. Holyfield tasted Tyson's and Foreman's power and said Foreman hit harder, Ali has stated Foreman hit harder than Liston and Joe Louis and Jack Dempsey said they never seen a heavyweight punch as hard as Foreman. These guys boxed so I am sure they know more about the sport than we people do.

If you're talking pure force, then George must rank among the top two or three hardest punchers ever at the weight. He is one of the few heavyweights I've seen that could wobble and hurt a man with arm punches.
As far as effective punching goes though, guys like Louis and Tyson are superior.

[Flea Man]

Guys...I read the first three lines and realised this was ripped from somewhere. What took you lot so long? :lol:

It is a good article though.

well, considering it's Chris ****** I thought something was up. Just didn't think people would plagarise so blatantly.

[Chris Warren]

Seamus Foreman avoided Tua? Tyson never fought Tua so it must ment Tyson ducked him too right? Nobody ever mentioned a Foreman vs Bowe or Golota match up and Tyson didnt fight Bowe either and he only fought Lewis because he was so far behind in taxes. Holyfield never fought Tua or Golota so what you are saying if flawed, but after reading countless of your post of these months it doesnt concern me much.

Foreman was 43 when he fought Tommy Morrison, Morrison was a far harder punch and was much better on his feet than Vitali so again your logic is flawe Seamus, When Vitali can beat a blown up middleweight like Chris Byrd then get back with me. Shannon Briggs had world class punching power and fast hands for a big man and still lost to Foreman. Alex Stewart was a slow starter but the longer the fight goes on the better he gets. Just watch his 2 fights against Evander Holyfield.

Seamus if you are impressed with Vitali beating the likes of Chris Arreola, Juan Carlos Gomez or a washed up Hasim Rahman then it proves you know nothing about boxing. Wait beating Danny Williams a nobody shows how great Vitali is right? Wait I know, I know, Vitali beat a washed up Vaughn Bean? Was that it? Give me a freaking break, the man fought trash and you still praise him. I know the reason but I won't say it to avoid any issues.

This thread was made to give Foreman praise not to bring up trash like Vitali or Wladimir Klitschko. If want to talk about how pretend great they are then make a thread about them. But you get ignored not Seamus you didnt even deserve me responding to you.

[Stevie G]

George Foreman was certainly one awesome heavyweight. At that time,circa 1973/74 only Muhammad Ali could have beaten him. Ali being equally as awesome,but in a different way. Jimmy Young would have lost to Foreman if the Ali fight had n't taken place.

[Chris Warren]

Fist of Fury I never claimed that I wrote this but nice try. Of course I took this from some place else and put it here because Foreman deserves some respect.

[essexboy]

Well PeteThePrince some times I am blunt but I always call things they way they are. But thank you for the response and it is good to see you think Foreman is underrated here. Liston beat Floyd Patterson a blown up super middleweight and Cleveland Williams a club fighter who punching power is overrated and to most here that puts him above Foreman.

I also find it funny when people here or other forums or on the street will say Tyson, Louis, Marciano could punch harder than Foreman. Holyfield tasted Tyson's and Foreman's power and said Foreman hit harder, Ali has stated Foreman hit harder than Liston and Joe Louis and Jack Dempsey said they never seen a heavyweight punch as hard as Foreman. These guys boxed so I am sure they know more about the sport than we people do.

Im not sure how many people have Liston above Foreman but I'm certainly not one of them.

[McGrain]

Guys...I read the first three lines and realised this was ripped from somewhere. What took you lot so long? :lol:
.

Same. Blatantly obvious.

[Flea Man]

McGrain you told him it was good :rofl

[McGrain]

McGrain you told him it was good :rofl

I would have said that post was even easier to decipher...and so obviously sarcasm nobody could think otherwise.

[Flea Man]

McGrain K.O 1 Fleaman :good

[KTFO]

Didn't know that Foreman died. Was that a necrology?