Can a chin improve [Archive] - East Side Boxing Forum

RebelBhoy

10-03-2009, 07:46 PM

Please forgive my ignorance on this. I honestly don't know the answer:

Following on from the who has a glass jaw thread, I have heard it said that punch resistance can improve when you move up in weight (Mostly Haye and Khan fans).

I have also heard it said that you can't do much about it if you have a glass jaw (Audley, Bernard Dunne)

Are there any examples of people whose punch resistance has gotten better whilst remaining in the same weight class.

If so, what can this be attributed to?

GazOC

10-03-2009, 07:52 PM

Unless the 'bad' chin is caused by something like stuggling to make the weight then any improvement will be marginal (strengthening neck muscles etc) although a fighter can concentrate on developing a defence or a style that will mean they ship less big shots.

The jury is still out on the effect of moving up in weight will have on improving Khans chin, my opinion is that it won't significantly.

Dan684

10-03-2009, 07:57 PM

I think Khan will always be a 'little' chinny however I honestly see him being able to take a far better shot at 140 than he could at 135. I still think he'll come a cropper against the likes of Urango/Bradley but I do not think that the 140 equivalants of Limmond/Drilzane would be hurting him. If his defence stands up as well as it has been showing I think he'll do ok :good

GazOC

10-03-2009, 08:04 PM

So now you've had both sides of the argument....;)

GladiatoR

10-03-2009, 08:14 PM

Haye's got a glass jaw?

:think

BamBam

10-03-2009, 08:17 PM

Don't think he said that. Just mentioned a glass jaw thread then mentioned Haye and Khan in relation to improving chins when moving up. Hayes whiskers are suspect. Even by his own admission.

Am I the only one who remembers a post by him on here about getting hit on his 'chinny, chin, chin' :lol:

GazOC

10-03-2009, 08:19 PM

Haye's got a glass jaw?

:think

Its 'iffy', yes.

punk

10-03-2009, 08:22 PM

There is a mental aspect as well.

DAVEMAKER

10-03-2009, 08:25 PM

TFFP

10-03-2009, 08:28 PM

Kind of. I think guys can just be healthier rather than magically improving. If your body is well hydrated and at its peak weight you should be stronger on fight night.

I'm pretty sure Khan still has an egg chin because he's never been able to take a punch right from the ams and into the pros.

trotter

10-03-2009, 08:34 PM

Without doubt drained fighters punch resistance will improve if they move up... not sure if that strictly equates to 'chin' though

Someone like Cotto was wobbled by high shots etc when he was tight at 140, no sign of that at 147

Can't help but think Khan was suffering similar issues, Prescott detonated bombs on him for sure - but the first jab of the fight steadied him... Gomez dropped him with a high cuffing shot

Haye said he felt like he had no legs when he fought Mormeck

Haye and Khan have inherent issues with taking punches

So basically yes it can help to move up, but you aren't going to turn into Toney overnight

cubex

10-03-2009, 08:36 PM

Sometimes making weight and draining to much affects punch resistance,stamian,etc.

Moving up helps,ex;Cotto.

RebelBhoy

10-03-2009, 08:55 PM

cubex

10-03-2009, 08:57 PM

Quetion:

Do you guys believe Roger Mayweather generally had a glass chin or was he indeed affected by weigth loss?

faisal

10-03-2009, 09:03 PM

Thanks everyone.

Perhaps I should have broken it down into 'chin' and general punch resistance.

I look at fighters like John Duddy who I think has an amazing chin and punch resistence, regardless of his other flaws. I felt the same about Margarito before Sugar Shane got to him.

David Haye admits he felt drained to Mormeck, and was not ready for the long haul against Carl Thompson. I wasn't criticizing his chin, rather saying that it is an accusation levelled against him. I am a fan.

Are there any boxers who have gotten better with strengthening the neck muscles like Gaz says?

Is age a factor as well?
hayes legs were gone when he fought Lolenga Mock who was a super middleweight journeyman watch the fight haye was stumbling around the ring and couldn't find his feet, this was early in his cruiserweight career when he had no trouble making weight the weight excuse for haye doesnt hold i personally feel he was hurt by monte barrete who threw a punch after the break.

TFFP

10-03-2009, 09:05 PM

hayes legs were gone when he fought Lolenga Mock who was a super middleweight journeyman watch the fight haye was stumbling around the ring and couldn't find his feet, this was early in his cruiserweight career when he had no trouble making weight the weight excuse for haye doesnt hold i personally feel he was hurt by monte barrete who threw a punch after the break.
Yeah he was...

Haye's chin is somewhere between questionable and glass.

faisal

10-03-2009, 09:10 PM

Quetion:

Do you guys believe Roger Mayweather generally had a glass chin or was he indeed affected by weigth loss?

mayweather was hurt by sweetpea who had pritty underrated power so theres no shame there IMHO he was also ko'd by rocky lokgridge but lockridge was a pritty awesome fighter himself so again theres no shame getting ko'd by him i think that fight was at 130 and mayweather was struggling to make the limit i could be wrong just my presumption.mayweather was a pritty damn good fighter back in the 80s his chin wasnt granite the guys he happened to face were excellent fighters who'd have ko'd most

PatrickP

10-03-2009, 09:16 PM

It's interesting how opinions differ on this subject. Someone posted on here after Dunne lost last week that his chin is worse than Khan's. This is clearly not the case as Dunne was only ever stopped by heavy hitters in his own weight category while Khan has been floored by a relatively light puncher in Willie Limmond and badly hurt by Gomez who was a blown up super featherweight. Then he is on queer street from a jab in the Prescott fight. It's interesting to note that he has also been put down as an amateur.

In fairness I don't see any difference in Khan with his move up in weight, I've seen nothing to suggest that his chin has improved. His defense is better which is what will probably be the deciding factor in his success at a higher level.

I can't think of any examples of a boxers chin improving with a move up in weight, I think it's more a case of stamina improving with the extra weight and if your stamina improves so does your chances of not getting ko'd.

cubex

10-03-2009, 09:21 PM

mayweather was hurt by sweetpea who had pritty underrated power so theres no shame there IMHO he was also ko'd by rocky lokgridge but lockridge was a pritty awesome fighter himself so again theres no shame getting ko'd by him i think that fight was at 130 and mayweather was struggling to make the limit i could be wrong just my presumption.mayweather was a pritty damn good fighter back in the 80s his chin wasnt granite the guys he happened to face were excellent fighters who'd have ko'd most

Well he says he was struggling in evry weight division he was.

130 and 135 especially.

THE KNUCKLE

10-03-2009, 09:21 PM

please forgive my ignorance on this. I honestly don't know the answer:

Following on from the who has a glass jaw thread, i have heard it said that punch resistance can improve when you move up in weight (mostly haye and khan fans).

I have also heard it said that you can't do much about it if you have a glass jaw (audley, bernard dunne)

are there any examples of people whose punch resistance has gotten better whilst remaining in the same weight class.

If so, what can this be attributed to?unless you train wae roger mayweather i doubt it

trotter

10-03-2009, 09:25 PM

I can't think of any examples of a boxers chin improving with a move up in weight, I think it's more a case of stamina improving with the extra weight and if your stamina improves so does your chances of not getting ko'd.

Cotto - he was all over the shop against Torres and did a dance against Corley despite dictating both fights

But Margarito had to beat him into bloody submission at 147 under extreme pressure and he never really looked wobbly

GazOC

10-03-2009, 09:27 PM

Cotto - he was all over the shop against Torres and did a dance against Corley despite dictating both fights

But Margarito had to beat him into bloody submission at 147 under extreme pressure and he never really looked wobbly

Good example.

faisal

10-03-2009, 09:35 PM

a chin can only improve if u have some kind of equalizer like very good punch power, Terry Norris had a shameful chin and a reckless defence but he was able to make up for it with his blazing handspeed and very good power as well as decent footwork i think this is what's keeping haye in the picture his power evens it up so theres an equal chance of his opponent getting ko'd as there is him kissing the canvas

TFFP

10-03-2009, 09:35 PM

It's not impossible that Torres/Corley are different types of puncher to Margarito and that is where the difference lies. Logically Margarito should punch harder considering his size (and possible bricks) but Torres/Corley both have handspeed, and that makes a hell of a difference. Has there ever been a great puncher with slow hands? I think speed is a huge part of the equation for punching power, along with timing and leverage.

Margarito is more like Pavlik, its that thudding power but its not a sharp devastating power that can spark a guy out. I really think a lack of speed can bottleneck a fighters power even if they do everything else perfectly.

But hey, I'm just playing devils advoctate, in general I do agree that Cotto has looked a lot sturdier overall. The Mosley fight proved it to me even more than the Margarito one because Mosley is the type that I think would have hurt Cotto back in the day.

GazOC

10-03-2009, 09:40 PM

There is the speed vs heavy hands way of looking at it but I'm not sure I buy it in this case.

TFFP

10-03-2009, 09:43 PM

I do agree with the theory overall, I think Cotto has definitely improved as a result. I havn't seen his legs go all funny for a long time.

I would be interested to see Margarito hit a heavy bag and Torres/Corley hit a heavy bag at full power. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the latter two could deliver harder punches on a one off basis. Margarito could probably punch consistently harder (particularly with knuckle dusters :p)

GazOC

10-03-2009, 09:48 PM

I'd guess a lot of it is having time to "prepare" for the punch. You don't get that with the sharpshooters like you do with the likes of Margarito

djoc175

10-04-2009, 12:34 AM

I'd guess a lot of it is having time to "prepare" for the punch. You don't get that with the sharpshooters like you do with the likes of Margarito
Yeah it's the ones you don't see coming that hurt they say.
That's what Haye says,all the punches that dropped him he didn't see coming but he is in the upper echelons of the Official Glass Jaw Rankings and has been for some time and it's not for no reason.

paddymickey

10-04-2009, 12:56 AM

To be honest there are some shots that placed in the correct spot would knock anybody out regardless of weight category. I think a perfectly placed punch to the temple or the tip of the jaw can sometimes be enough to render someone unconscious. It's taking punched on the cheek bones that I see the difference in most fighters. Duddy V Smichet is a classic example of that one. But the shot that Manny landed on Ricky for example - that would have put anyone to sleep.

brown bomber

10-04-2009, 05:04 AM

UndisputedUK

10-04-2009, 06:18 AM

Weight draining can have a big effect I guess, just a question for any boxers out there, when you shed the water content down do you suffer bad headaches and sickness? (I would think it's like a bad hangover.) Also lack of food can cause mood problems.

Beeston Brawler

10-04-2009, 06:22 AM

I think it can to a degree, but Amir Khan (this seems to be the theme here) isn't going to emulate an Oscar De La Hoya type and get better through his career.

brown bomber

10-04-2009, 06:29 AM

I think it can to a degree, but Amir Khan (this seems to be the theme here) isn't going to emulate an Oscar De La Hoya type and get better through his career.The shot that KO'd khan vs prescott would have KO'd a lightweight De La Hoya. But he wouldn't have been hit with it because his defence was too good. Khans chin problem is a little over-rated its more his D but he's fixed that now by fighting like Vlad.

Beeston Brawler

10-04-2009, 06:34 AM

I still think his ego will cause him a problem or two in tougher fights - against guys that aren't made for him.

It will still be his tendency to want to bang his way out of trouble...... that's why I think they will swerve Maidana.

Darni187

10-04-2009, 06:40 AM

Simple factors have to be taken into account if a chin can be improved moving up in weight.

Frame Size
Height
Age

Taking these factors into account the trainer should know what weight is best for the fighter based on these factors and how the fighter is making weight for a fight. Some fighters train harder than others which means its hard to point out if they are having trouble making weight or their diet pattern is not right not eating right near weigh in is always a sign things are not right. Staying hydrated is the key, water levels in the body and brain must be at the right levels.

GazOC

10-04-2009, 08:31 AM

The shot that KO'd khan vs prescott would have KO'd a lightweight De La Hoya. But he wouldn't have been hit with it because his defence was too good. Khans chin problem is a little over-rated its more his D but he's fixed that now by fighting like Vlad.

Another thing is that Oscar wouldn't have been wobbled by the eariler, lighter shots that set up the big KO for Presscott.

djoc175

10-04-2009, 08:33 AM

Can anybody explain how Margarito has such a great chin?I mean he must be really draining himself looking at the size of him.Bit of an anomalie

brown bomber

10-04-2009, 08:39 AM

Can anybody explain how Margarito has such a great chin?I mean he must be really draining himself looking at the size of him.Bit of an anomalie
Not really there's been quite a few tall guys with good beards. Mind you knowing margarito he probably loads the opponents gloves as well the cheating cunt. Fuck him.

PatrickP

10-04-2009, 04:18 PM

de la hoya, cotto, pacman, muhammed Ali, barrera - obscure fighters like that

My point Jeff, is that it is not a certainty that the move up in weight improves a chin, it is probably the improvement in strength and stamina that makes the difference. Nice attempt at sacrcasm though.

Irishbc

10-04-2009, 04:20 PM

DAVEMAKER

10-04-2009, 04:30 PM

Drilzane was 140.... that was a light welter fight.
nice one copying me.... check the first page, jerk

brown bomber

10-04-2009, 04:30 PM

My point Jeff, is that it is not a certainty that the move up in weight improves a chin, it is probably the improvement in strength and stamina that makes the difference. Nice attempt at sacrcasm though.Thanks, I try my best..... but what is a chin? Its punch resistance (chin is just a word for it- remember)!! Is it an anatomical weakness or is it lack of fluid around the brain, or is it the ability to sustain a workrate longer? Or Is it the ability to uptake oxygen sufficiently to prevent confusion? Its a whole host of things including strength and stamina- and your correct a chin doesn't suddenly grow an armour plated skin shield as you increase in weight- but who said it did?

brown bomber

10-04-2009, 04:31 PM

nice one copying me.... check the first page, jerkOne problem. The Drilzane knockdown was a slip. Perhaps his boots will become less slippy as he moves up in weight. :lol:

Irishbc

10-04-2009, 04:45 PM

nice one copying me.... check the first page, jerk

jesus christ calm down "jerk" (nice insult by the way, im terribly offended) oh and Jeff it wasnt a slip, look at his legs when he gets back to his feet and tries to ambush Drilzane.

Irishbc

10-04-2009, 04:46 PM

Thanks, I try my best..... but what is a chin? Its punch resistance (chin is just a word for it- remember)!! Is it an anatomical weakness or is it lack of fluid around the brain, or is it the ability to sustain a workrate longer? Or Is it the ability to uptake oxygen sufficiently to prevent confusion? Its a whole host of things including strength and stamina- and your correct a chin doesn't suddenly grow an armour plated skin shield as you increase in weight- but who said it did?

Skull structure, I have a very thick skull and jaw and I always had huge punch resistance. I once fell when I was about 8 years old, smashed my head off the concrete, and was perfectly fine, I was surprised myself I wasn't dead, you should have seen my friends faces.

brown bomber

10-04-2009, 04:48 PM

jesus christ calm down "jerk" (nice insult by the way, im terribly offended) oh and Jeff it wasnt a slip, look at his legs when he gets back to his feet and tries to ambush Drilzane.IT WAS A SLIP I HAVE THE SHITTY FIGHT on DVD

brown bomber

10-04-2009, 04:50 PM

Skull structure, I have a very thick skull and jaw and I always had huge punch resistance. I once fell when I was about 8 years old, smashed my head off the concrete, and was perfectly fine, I was surprised myself I wasn't dead, you should have seen my friends faces.How many times have you been floored in championship fights while making a championship weight your uncomfotable making- when your recieving poor dietry advice?

PatrickP

10-04-2009, 04:52 PM

Thanks, I try my best..... but what is a chin? Its punch resistance (chin is just a word for it- remember)!! Is it an anatomical weakness or is it lack of fluid around the brain, or is it the ability to sustain a workrate longer? Or Is it the ability to uptake oxygen sufficiently to prevent confusion? Its a whole host of things including strength and stamina- and your correct a chin doesn't suddenly grow an armour plated skin shield as you increase in weight- but who said it did?

I didn't say anyone said it did! I was pointing out that moving up in weight will not necessarily improve your chin. If Amir Khan got hit flush on the chin by Prescott again he would go down again, even with the extra weight.

I know what you mean when you say chin equals punch resistance, that's what we are assuming in this discussion but actually they are too very different things. If you are knocked down with a body shot that's got nothing to do with your chin has it?:D

Irishbc

10-04-2009, 04:53 PM

How many times have you been floored in championship fights while making a championship weight your uncomfotable making- when your recieving poor dietry advice?

Lol, I've been hit with harder things than boxing gloves without being wobbled.

Irishbc

10-04-2009, 04:54 PM

IT WAS A SLIP I HAVE THE SHITTY FIGHT on DVD

You got stopped by Oisin Fagan, no point trying tell me about punch resistance...

PatrickP

10-04-2009, 04:56 PM

You got stopped by Oisin Fagan, no point trying tell me about punch resistance...

That's not nice Irishbc.:nono

Irishbc

10-04-2009, 04:57 PM

That's not nice Irishbc.:nono

Im not a nice guy

Irishbc

10-04-2009, 05:05 PM

OK OK I was joking, I actually saw Jeffs debut fight and thought he was better back then than Fagan ever was, I actually wanted to ask him how he lost that fight since I never saw it, maybe stamina?

PatrickP

10-04-2009, 05:10 PM

OK OK I was joking, I actually saw Jeffs debut fight and thought he was better back then than Fagan ever was, I actually wanted to ask him how he lost that fight since I never saw it, maybe stamina?

See you really are a nice guy :D I agree, I would rate Jeff higher than Fagan.

John18

10-04-2009, 05:11 PM

I love it when Jeff is in this kind of mood. Gives me the right horn.

Irishbc

10-04-2009, 05:12 PM

See you really are a nice guy :D I agree, I would rate Jeff higher than Fagan.

Lol well I remember Jeff saying he had bad asthma, and that was my main problem aswell, no point being a good boxer if your wrecked after 3 rounds, he actually deserves respect for simply making it to the seventh lol.

PatrickP

10-04-2009, 05:16 PM

Lol well I remember Jeff saying he had bad asthma, and that was my main problem aswell, no point being a good boxer if your wrecked after 3 rounds, he actually deserves respect for simply making it to the seventh lol.

Too right, boxing is hard enough when you've got full lung capacity!

onourway

10-04-2009, 05:17 PM

Its a funny one with Haye.

Booth says that he's seen Haye ship some massive punches off big punchers and not even flinch, then he's seen him taken not hard looking punches off non punchers and be on queer street.

If that is the case, then how would you rank a chin like that??

Irishbc

10-04-2009, 05:20 PM

Too right, boxing is hard enough when you've got full lung capacity!

I bragged baout my punch resistance, but my stamina was ABYSMAL, I mean absolutely ATROCIOUS. There is no worse feeling than being in a fight when it feels like there are cinderblocks in your gloves and lungs. I also had my nose borken and never got it fixed, which made it almost impossible to breathe full stop.

PatrickP

10-04-2009, 05:29 PM

I bragged baout my punch resistance, but my stamina was ABYSMAL, I mean absolutely ATROCIOUS. There is no worse feeling than being in a fight when it feels like there are cinderblocks in your gloves and lungs. I also had my nose borken and never got it fixed, which made it almost impossible to breathe full stop.

Who are you Irishbc? Anyone we'd know?

Irishbc

10-04-2009, 05:34 PM

Who are you Irishbc? Anyone we'd know?

Brendan Hagans, but you wouldn't know me I don't think, I was a great amateur but all of my trainers said my style suited the pro game much better, because I had big power and always pressured(another reason I got so tired so quick), they were thinking of letting me turn pro under Breen, but I developed severe depression and had to quit. I'm really thinking of going back though, this site alone gives me the boxing bug.

PatrickP

10-04-2009, 05:38 PM

Brendan Hagans, but you wouldn't know me I don't think, I was a great amateur but all of my trainers said my style suited the pro game much better, because I had big power and always pressured(another reason I got so tired so quick), they were thinking of letting me turn pro under Breen, but I developed severe depression and had to quit. I'm really thinking of going back though, this site alone gives me the boxing bug.

If you wanted to get back into it, now would be a great time, the Irish boxing scene is buzzing at the moment. Good luck to you if you decide to give it another go :good

Irishbc

10-04-2009, 05:40 PM

If you wanted to get back into it, now would be a great time, the Irish boxing scene is buzzing at the moment. Good luck to you if you decide to give it another go :good

Thanks mate, I've really, really been considering it, I'm still young at 23 so I guess it wouldn't be too late eh?

PatrickP

10-04-2009, 05:43 PM

Thanks mate, I've really, really been considering it, I'm still young at 23 so I guess it wouldn't be too late eh?

If Martin Rogan can do it in his 30's, there's no reason why you can't at 23.

Beeston Brawler

10-04-2009, 05:47 PM

23 is still young enough to have another go - even if you don't succeed you can think about it in your pipe and slippers.... rather than regretting not doing it.

I've gone back to rugby this season after six years off, no reason why you can't.

Irishbc

10-04-2009, 05:48 PM

Beeston Brawler

10-04-2009, 05:53 PM

Just gotta quit smoking lol.

I need to cut down on the sauce!

If you want it bad enough, you will succeed.

Rugby is the sort of game you can play with according to your motives, i.e. striving for as high as you can or having a laugh with your mates, even when you could play much higher up.

richard mossley

10-04-2009, 05:56 PM

The shot that KO'd khan vs prescott would have KO'd a lightweight De La Hoya. But he wouldn't have been hit with it because his defence was too good. Khans chin problem is a little over-rated its more his D but he's fixed that now by fighting like Vlad.

And that sums how I feel as well. But there are 2 types of punch resistance.
The one punch KO: A good shot is a good shot, is there a light-welterwieght on the planet who if it by Paq's KO shot against Hatton, who would have remained standing?

The second type is attrition of punches, someone like Margarito seemed to be able to be hit all night, look what he how many bombs he took before he finally folded against Mosely. I think this declines with age/battles and can clearly be affected by weight drainage.

brown bomber

10-05-2009, 03:46 AM

Ha ha thanks Irish- fagan has quite a few stoppages actually but ur tight he's not a huge puncher but very fit! I was stopped because I was exhausted more then anything else! Asthma and shit trainers don't combine too well! As for my other posts I was only messing but it's true that 'chins' and 'power' have been known to improve with weight advancement- u highlighted just some of the reasons in ur own posts- also the only time I was ever really down was Steve Murray - I took 2 counts vs fagan but I was desperate for a rest! Thanks dudes

brown bomber

10-05-2009, 03:49 AM

And yes get back to fighting 23 is too young!!! I'm 27 and I'm still 50-50 about one more try- this time with someone who actually knows about fitness

Zakman

10-05-2009, 01:40 PM

Generally speaking, no. If anything, punch resistance seems to decline as fighters go through their careers. Look at Ray Mercer. He had an iron chin when younger, but it was clearly not as good as he got older.

doug.ie

10-05-2009, 01:52 PM

Brendan Hagans, but you wouldn't know me I don't think, I was a great amateur but all of my trainers said my style suited the pro game much better, because I had big power and always pressured(another reason I got so tired so quick), they were thinking of letting me turn pro under Breen, but I developed severe depression and had to quit. I'm really thinking of going back though, this site alone gives me the boxing bug.

what weight are you fella...or what would you box at ?

all the best lad...i'll tell you something else too...a lot of top lads here on the brit forum, you'll get lots of encouragment and no bullshit...same for the lads who post on the irish thread on the general forum.