Wlad Klitschko vs Max Baer

[Flea Man]

12 rounds, Baer gets to wear his gloves, Wlad has the privelage of studying footage and modern training.

I honestly think the Baer that fought Carnera has a chance. He had a good chin, and although Wlad could keep him at bay with the jab there's a good chance that Baer will just wing his big shots in, panicking Wlad.

Who takes it?

[junior-soprano]

if this is the serious, motivated baer. then i think baer takes it.

[Mr Butt]

the baer that fought carnera has a chance but i have to go for wlad to win a safety first decision.but with baer at the top of his game it is a lot closer than the klit fans will admit

[McGrain]

I agree, I would pick Baer. Nightmare style for Wlad. Granite chin, huge puncher, works in attacking rushes mostly regardless.

[Flea Man]

I agree, I would pick Baer. Nightmare style for Wlad. Granite chin, huge puncher, works in attacking rushes mostly regardless.

That's what I was thinking.

[ChrisPontius]

Wlad by shutout decision. Baer's boxing skills and footwork are absolutely horrible, and he'd never get started, with that sick jab from Wlad. I'd pick Wlad by TKO (in any way you like, knockdowns, cuts, corner stoppage because he's not competitive, etc) in 10. Let's not forget that a WAY worse, weaker version of Wlad was winning most rounds against Baer with a broken ankle.

[McGrain]

Wlad by shutout decision. Baer's boxing skills and footwork are absolutely horrible, and he'd never get started, with that sick jab from Wlad. I'd pick Wlad by TKO (in any way you like, knockdowns, cuts, corner stoppage because he's not competitive, etc) in 10. Let's not forget that a WAY worse, weaker version of Wlad was winning most rounds against Baer with a broken ankle.


Two things about this

1 - Baer's footwork is horrible but direct. Wlad's footwork is excellent but he can be shaken. Even Chagaev shook him when he managed to rush.

2 - Baer is perpetually going to be rushing Wlad for the duration of the fight. Ten rounds is a huge amount of time.

[Mr Butt]

Wlad by shutout decision. Baer's boxing skills and footwork are absolutely horrible, and he'd never get started, with that sick jab from Wlad. I'd pick Wlad by TKO (in any way you like, knockdowns, cuts, corner stoppage because he's not competitive, etc) in 10. Let's not forget that a WAY worse, weaker version of Wlad was winning most rounds against Baer with a broken ankle.


i was right:yep

[ChrisPontius]

Two things about this

1 - Baer's footwork is horrible but direct. Wlad's footwork is excellent but he can be shaken. Even Chagaev shook him when he managed to rush.

2 - Baer is perpetually going to be rushing Wlad for the duration of the fight. Ten rounds is a huge amount of time.

1 - When did that happen? Last time i checked, Wlad, at worst, drew one round, and easily won every single other one. Just take a look:
(i can't find the Youtube-link button anymore)

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

As you can see, Baer is using absolutely nothing that resembles defence and is WIDE open for the jab, which he has to eat all the time Carnera throws one. Joe Louis couldn't miss him with the jab, either - or with any punch, for that matter. I think it's a mismatch.

2 - We've seen before that Wlad can stay off the ropes for 12 rounds against a technically superior fighter in Peter (i know i sounds ridiculous, but just look at the film, Peter is actually capable of blocking punches instead of protecting his hips or whatever Baer does).

[Flea Man]

1 - When did that happen? Last time i checked, Wlad, at worst, drew one round, and easily won every single other one. Just take a look:
(i can't find the Youtube-link button anymore)

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

As you can see, Baer is using absolutely nothing that resembles defence and is WIDE open for the jab, which he has to eat all the time Carnera throws one. Joe Louis couldn't miss him with the jab, either - or with any punch, for that matter. I think it's a mismatch.

2 - We've seen before that Wlad can stay off the ropes for 12 rounds against a technically superior fighter in Peter (i know i sounds ridiculous, but just look at the film, Peter is actually capable of blocking punches instead of protecting his hips or whatever Baer does).

Good points, but considering Wlad isn't gung-ho and Baer could eat punches, don't you think its feasible that the pressure Baer provides would offset his dominant ring generalship? Baer is going to be going for it, and Wlad would probably lose his cool.

Baer is technically SHOCKING at times, but his chin and two fisted power, plus the alarming way he throws them would cause Wlad problems IMO.

it's no foregone conclusion, hence why I thought it'd be an interesting fight to bring up, especially considering Wlad will have time to prepare by watching footage (the way I see it we pick both fighters up and take them into the future, leaving them in their 'prime' state, allowing both fighters to fight under their rules to an extent whilst maintaining safety)

I say Wlad finds Baer difficult, though Baer isn't going to eat constant right hands. The problem being is that Wlad doesn't throw constant right hands.

[McGrain]

1 - When did that happen? Last time i checked, Wlad, at worst, drew one round, and easily won every single.


Was it round six? I can't remember. We talked about it at the time though, I think, by pm? Where Chagaev charged him and he momentarily lost his footing/calm?

[ChrisPontius]

Good points, but considering Wlad isn't gung-ho and Baer could eat punches, don't you think its feasible that the pressure Baer provides would offset his dominant ring generalship? Baer is going to be going for it, and Wlad would probably lose his cool.

Baer is technically SHOCKING at times, but his chin and two fisted power, plus the alarming way he throws them would cause Wlad problems IMO.

it's no foregone conclusion, hence why I thought it'd be an interesting fight to bring up, especially considering Wlad will have time to prepare by watching footage (the way I see it we pick both fighters up and take them into the future, leaving them in their 'prime' state, allowing both fighters to fight under their rules to an extent whilst maintaining safety)

I say Wlad finds Baer difficult, though Baer isn't going to eat constant right hands. The problem being is that Wlad doesn't throw constant right hands.

No problem, i will say that Baer has a puncher's chance, but i don't think it's a big one.


Also, while he certainly has a sturdy chin, i don't think it's going to mean that much. Louis stopped him in only 4 rounds with three knockdowns. Nova stopped him twice. What big, 210+lbs hitters did he survive? Carnera is the only one i can think of.

Was it round six? I can't remember. We talked about it at the time though, I think, by pm? Where Chagaev charged him and he momentarily lost his footing/calm?

My impression was that Wlad lost or drew one round more because he was taking a round off. I'd give Baer a punchers chance, but other than that, i think it's a mismatch. Against a skilled boxer/puncher in Louis (who doesn't have the best of jaws, either, but great recuperative powers) it wasn't remotely close.

[mcvey]

Wlad by shutout decision. Baer's boxing skills and footwork are absolutely horrible, and he'd never get started, with that sick jab from Wlad. I'd pick Wlad by TKO (in any way you like, knockdowns, cuts, corner stoppage because he's not competitive, etc) in 10. Let's not forget that a WAY worse, weaker version of Wlad was winning most rounds against Baer with a broken ankle.
Carnera sprained his ankle ,and he did it because he was dropped by a thunderous right.How many rounds do you give Carnera ,given that he was down 11 times? Baer was actually sloppy against Carnera, he knew he had nothing to worry about and played to the gallery ,I think he could have stopped Primo early if he had gone to work on him .The Baer that stopped Campbell and Schmeling, has a great chance of koing Wlad [ I shit myself if you attack ],Klitschko.

[McGrain]

My impression was that Wlad lost or drew one round more because he was taking a round off. I'd give Baer a punchers chance, but other than that, i think it's a mismatch. Against a skilled boxer/puncher in Louis (who doesn't have the best of jaws, either, but great recuperative powers) it wasn't remotely close.

The Baer that fought Louis is hardly fair to pick on, and Baer endured a pheonominal beating even then...as for Wlad, I wasn't talking about his losing a round so much as the fact he seemed rattled but the sudden close of distance. Baer is not going to fight conservatively, he's going to drive forwards. Wlad doesn't like that sort of thing at all. If the fight really goes 10 rounds i'd be astonished if he didn't get stopped.

[ChrisPontius]

Carnera sprained his ankle ,and he did it because he was dropped by a thunderous right.How many rounds do you give Carnera ,given that he was down 11 times? Baer was actually sloppy against Carnera, he knew he had nothing to worry about and played to the gallery ,I think he could have stopped Primo early if he had gone to work on him .The Baer that stopped Campbell and Schmeling, has a great chance of koing Wlad [ I shit myself if you attack ],Klitschko.

It's been a while but i remember giving Carnera the majority of the rounds in which he didn't get knocked down.

The Baer that fought Louis is hardly fair to pick on, and Baer endured a pheonominal beating even then...as for Wlad, I wasn't talking about his losing a round so much as the fact he seemed rattled but the sudden close of distance. Baer is not going to fight conservatively, he's going to drive forwards. Wlad doesn't like that sort of thing at all. If the fight really goes 10 rounds i'd be astonished if he didn't get stopped.

Why is the Louis fight hardly fair to pick on? Baer trained his ass of and that's exactly what reports say, going into it. I think this fight is a good indication of what a modern boxer-puncher does to that defenceless low guard of his. Even Braddock embarrassed him. I don't think that was a fluke at all: if you watch the fight, you can see he's just being matched with a technically superior boxer, and that's all there is to it. The clowning excuses are just that: excuses.


As for the rushing Wlad thing: i don't really think it's that bad. Everyone has made their attempts at that and very few have succeeded. Maybe Wlad doesn't like Bear coming forward, but how does Baer feel about getting hit CONSTANTLY (he doesn't seem to be bothered by using defence) by someone who hits harder than anyone he's ever fought, outside of Louis? (who is on the same level)

Baer's stength and punching power set him apart for that time when there was very little talent at 210+lbs, but in more modern days he'd not get far with those lacking fundamentals.

[time lost]

Two things about this

1 - Baer's footwork is horrible but direct. Wlad's footwork is excellent but he can be shaken. Even Chagaev shook him when he managed to rush.

2 - Baer is perpetually going to be rushing Wlad for the duration of the fight. Ten rounds is a huge amount of time. chagaev shook him?:huh

[McGrain]

Why is the Louis fight hardly fair to pick on? Baer trained his ass of and that's exactly what reports say, going into it.

He'd just lost the title, he was just over a year from the skids and he quit on his ass, something not in keeping with Baer, in my opinion.

I think this fight is a good indication of what a modern boxer-puncher does to that defenceless low guard of his.

He'd already utterly destroyed a boxer puncher in Schmeling. He wasn't able to make much of Baer's low guard. In fact, it's said Schmeling turned down the title shot when Max held it such was his surity he couldn't win.


Even Braddock embarrassed him.

Braddock had an iron jaw and versatility. Things Wlad doesn't have. Also, I object to the "even" monicur. Braddock was a very good fighter when he took on Baer.

I don't think that was a fluke at all: if you watch the fight, you can see he's just being matched with a technically superior boxer, and that's all there is to it. The clowning excuses are just that: excuses.

I think this is probably bang on.


As for the rushing Wlad thing: i don't really think it's that bad. Everyone has made their attempts at that and very few have succeeded. Maybe Wlad doesn't like Bear coming forward, but how does Baer feel about getting hit CONSTANTLY (he doesn't seem to be bothered by using defence) by someone who hits harder than anyone he's ever fought, outside of Louis? (who is on the same level)

I don't think he would like it at all. But predicting boxing is, as you know, about assigning variables and taking a deep breath. I much prefer Baer's durability to Wlad's organisation when rushed against a persistant rusher, extremely hard puncher with a vastly superior chin. I'm happy in the pick.

[ChrisPontius]

He'd just lost the title, he was just over a year from the skids and he quit on his ass, something not in keeping with Baer, in my opinion.


He was only one year away from his peak, and like i said, reports going in where that he was training VERY hard and had all the motivation to beat this young kid in order to get his title back, eventually.


He'd already utterly destroyed a boxer puncher in Schmeling. He wasn't able to make much of Baer's low guard. In fact, it's said Schmeling turned down the title shot when Max held it such was his surity he couldn't win.


Utterly destroyed? I had Schmeling (slightly) ahead before he got KO'd. Schmeling just stepped up from lightheavyweight and wasn't the most durable guy to begin with, having several first round KO losses to unknown and/or unrated boxers. Good win for Baer though.



Braddock had an iron jaw and versatility. Things Wlad doesn't have. Also, I object to the "even" monicur. Braddock was a very good fighter when he took on Baer.


On the other hand, Wlad isn't a former lightheavyweight with 10 losses in a row or so, and is better in just about every area except for chin - and remind me - how many fights against 210+lbs heavyweights did Braddock have? Wlad has 51. Dito for Baer?



I don't think he would like it at all. But predicting boxing is, as you know, about assigning variables and taking a deep breath. I much prefer Baer's durability to Wlad's organisation when rushed against a persistant rusher, extremely hard puncher with a vastly superior chin. I'm happy in the pick.

Alright. All i'm saying is that durability is an overrated (and i hate that word) quality. How far did Tua's durability get him against Lewis? Byrd's against Wlad? Tyson's against Douglas? Chuvalo's against Frazier or Foreman? Qualities like boxing ability, defence, footwork, size and speed are at least as important, and Wlad easily excels in all of them, compared to Baer. And again, Baer's durability and other physical traits are great compared to the heavyweights of his time, but they were mostly under or around 200lbs. This is a different ballpark.

[Bad_Intentions]

If Baer trains really hard, then i can see him winning this fight...

He has a rock/solid chin, and good power....while Wlad has a semi-good chin, but has skills.

but if this is A SERIOUS MOTIVATED-WELL TRAINED BAER....Baer TKO 10th.

[mr. magoo]

I'm joining this discussion a bit late, but I'm going with Wladimir Klitschko, and for many of the same reasons that Chris Pontius has already touched upon.. No need to repeat them.

[McGrain]

He was only one year away from his peak, and like i said, reports going in where that he was training VERY hard and had all the motivation to beat this young kid in order to get his title back, eventually.


Well we agree he was past his prime and we agree (based upon your prediction) that he wouldn't quit to Klitschko like he quit to Louis (despite your seeing a similar one-sided beating) so we see enough differences between the best version and the version that fought Louis to agree that he was not at his best.


Utterly destroyed? I had Schmeling (slightly) ahead before he got KO'd. Schmeling just stepped up from lightheavyweight and wasn't the most durable guy to begin with, having several first round KO losses to unknown and/or unrated boxers. Good win for Baer though.

Beat, rather than destroyed then, but the point is in Schmeling he beat a capable, respected (generally) top 20 HW box-puncher, so i don't think he's as "automatically" vulnerable as you've made out.




On the other hand, Wlad isn't a former lightheavyweight with 10 losses in a row or so, and is better in just about every area except for chin - and remind me - how many fights against 210+lbs heavyweights did Braddock have? Wlad has 51. Dito for Baer?

Facts and figures in support of your fighter's size don't change his vulnerability to massive punchers, which Baer is in my opinion, and doesn't change his discomfort at being attacked, which Wlad suffers in my opinion.

As to your points about Braddock's previous, i've said it a million times; Braddock was not the same fighter that "lost ten in a row". He was a different prospect. He was an excellent fighter in a way he wasn't previously. His record supports this.




Alright. All i'm saying is that durability is an overrated (and i hate that word) quality. How far did Tua's durability get him against Lewis? Byrd's against Wlad? Tyson's against Douglas? Chuvalo's against Frazier or Foreman? Qualities like boxing ability, defence, footwork, size and speed are at least as important, and Wlad easily excels in all of them, compared to Baer. And again, Baer's durability and other physical traits are great compared to the heavyweights of his time, but they were mostly under or around 200lbs. This is a different ballpark.


Points taken. But what I meant with that sweeping statement was this - i'm much more confident that Baer can absorb Wlad's punches longer than Wlad can stay out of trouble. Wlad is knockoutable. That's why he's become so masterful in terms of controlling range and pace. He won't be able to control either against Baer becuase Baer doens't give a fuck. I also have my suspicions that Wlad isn't going to be able to deal, mentally, with losing control over these things, though that is a hunch.

Add these things up and you have my path to a pick of Baer by KO. I don't insist it is the right pick, i've been wrong before (standout pics from last year inlcude Hatton over Pacquio and Mijares over Darchiniyan) but i'm comfortable with this one. I'd have Wlad ahead when he goes down for the las time. Just like Schmeling ;)

[ChrisPontius]

Alright, well, neither of us is going to convince the other, so let's agree to disagree. Work time. :mad:

[McGrain]

Are you not some sort of student :lol: I sort of presumed that for some reason :lol:

[Bummy Davis]

A top form Baer has a punchers chance but overall Vlad has the far better skills and was a much better big man than Primo, I think the fight would be a TKO in prime Vlads favor but if Baer was filling in for Sanders that day he may have been able to duplicate....the present version of Vlad would more than likely score a shutout before the stop

[Flea Man]

Few things; mcgrains penultimate paragraph is the exact reason I think Baer stands a fine chance of stopping Wlad. 2nd thing, the back and firth analystic debate between MCG and Pontius is the exact reason I started the thread, it's an intriguing matchup and has created a good snare without any flaming!!! The reason I live in the classic, cheers lads

[he grant]

Wlad is a huge favorite but if Baer is highly motivated, focused and conditioned he has a shot. His power, stamina and reach would be factors. Let's not forget Max himself had an 80 plus inch wingspan. He was no little man. He would have to fight the fight of his life. Wlad's chin is weak and Baer could seriously hurt him with his wild style.

[Zakman]

12 rounds, Baer gets to wear his gloves, Wlad has the privelage of studying footage and modern training.

I honestly think the Baer that fought Carnera has a chance. He had a good chin, and although Wlad could keep him at bay with the jab there's a good chance that Baer will just wing his big shots in, panicking Wlad.

Who takes it?

This will probably be a controversial pick, but I think Baer has a good chance to knock Wlad out, presuming he's able to get a solid shot in.

If Klitschko is able to avoid getting hit solidly, he wins a wide UD. But I don't think he'd be able to do that for the full 12, let alone 15.

Baer by late KO

[Flea Man]

This will probably be a controversial pick, but I think Baer has a good chance to knock Wlad out, presuming he's able to get a good shot in.

If Klitschko is able to avoid getting hit solidly, he wins a wide UD. But I don't think he'd be able to do that for the full 12, let alone 15.

Baer by late KO

Reading through the previous posts you will see it is not that controversial, some think it already :good

[McGrain]

I think it's something around 4 apiece thus far.

[Flea Man]

I think it's something around 4 apiece thus far.


It's one of those matches though isn't it. Not only would Wlad have to put up with punches, I think it's Baer steaming into him that is going to make him panic.


Now, even with extra poundage I don't think Wlad is as devastating a hitter as Joe Louis. There, I said it. Wlad can box to order but Baer isn't really going to care. However, even with his chin, there's a chance his free wheelin style may see him square on get hit with that beast of a right hand.

I honestly think that if Wlad lands the right hand that felled Chagaev, Baer could be lights out, regardless of his chin, it's the way he walks onto punches at times.

The ferocious exchange towards the end of round 1 (I THINK!) against Louis shows Baer, whilst sloppy and wide at (most) times, could flurry with some speed and trade under immense power.

Wlad's height, reach and (fantastic) dictating of range may play a part in this becoming more difficult, but Max was mad, he would just charge Wlad if need be.

Another thing is that Wlad likes to get into a pattern of blocking his opponents best weapons, stripping them down before stopping them. Dissecting. This is in part to Manny Stewards tactics I assume, but how would he help him fight Baer. 'When he wings in one of his hooks shoot a straight down the middle', because with Baer swining I think Wlad is gonna find it hard to time him; to a modern figher Baer would be seriously unpredictable, he'd throw a short right to move you then wing a big left hook in, or stand off before using his full reach to launch a bomb from either side. Wlad's maintaining of range may not be as useful here.

There is a very good chance of course that Wlad's jab and ability to keep to a plan with his hands high, size and sheer weight would see Barer outmuscled and outgunned. Baer was strong for his day but Wlad Klitschko is a hi-tec boxer; he's a mean machine, and it's not just down to chopping wood and being tough as Hell.

Personally I think Baer is a nightmare style match for Wlad, but the variables make it be that Baer might just be easy picking for Wlad in a stinker.

That's what makes it an interesting thread IMO and I've enjoyed everyones comments so far:good

[fists of fury]

Well, make that 5-4 for Wlad then.

This is a good thread because Baer has that air of unpredictability about him. He'd probably bemuse Wlad and leave him wondering what he's getting in the ring with. Baer as we all know rarely took things very seriously in the ring, except for one or two occasions.
In this world of icy staredowns and super seriousness, Baer's madcap behaviour could unsettle Wlad a bit.

Baer on the scales would be much the lighter fighter, but Baer was actually a huge man himself. His dimensions compare quite favourably to many modern heavyweights.

In any event, where I reckon this fight is won and lost is in the preparation. Wlad is one of the best-prepared heavyweights out there, and I can only assume he'd have a sound, if cautious, strategy in place come fight time.
Baer? I don't know...he was such a off-the-wall guy it's difficult to predict what he would be thinking on fight night.

So for me Wlad wins basically because he's a more professional, disciplined athlete. The chance of Baer scoring a knockout is definitely there, but generally the fighter with the better preparation and gameplan wins.

[Flea Man]

Good points FoF.

I think Baer would give better showing against Vitali than Arreola did. Again, unpredictable, iron chin and (unlike Arreola) the ability to get close to Vitali. We saw how Vitali went back to the ropes flustered whenever Arreola got close how would he react with Baer throwing himself at him?

Personally I find it harder to make a case for Baer against Vitali. But I still think he'd push very hard before losing on points (over 12)

[fists of fury]

Good points FoF.

I think Baer would give better showing against Vitali than Arreola did.

I think a heavy bag would do better than Arreola, honestly.

[ramalinga]

I agree, I would pick Baer. Nightmare style for Wlad. Granite chin, huge puncher, works in attacking rushes mostly regardless.

Disagree. Baer gets stopped in his tracks repeatedly by Wlad's accurate ramrod jab. His rushes lack the head movement to avoid getting hit first, Baer loaded up his punches, he would never be the first to connect. If we are talking about the best (current) version of Wlad, not the one who got starched by Sanders, Wlad is a clear favorite.

[mr. magoo]

I swear, there are some people on this forum who would pick Tex Cobb to beat Klitschko, and soley on the basis that he has " a granite chin and a big punch. "

[Flea Man]

I swear, there are some people on this forum who would pick Tex Cobb to beat Klitschko, and soley on the basis that he has " a granite chin and a big punch. "

I wouldn't. He was plodding and a good jab has already been shown to be a dealbreaker for Cobb's effectiveness (I think Holmes has the superior jab to Wlad mind)

But it's Baer's unpredictability, balls and zany style that makes this a hard one to pick (IMO!!!)

[MRBILL]

The Baer of '33 and '34 would beat Wlad Klit of 2004 / '05.......... But a prime Baer would get sliced and diced by a 2006 to 2009 Wlad Klit like a Goose in a butcher shop.....

MR.BILL

[Seamus]

Baer may have been able to chase around those inept midgets of the 30's winding up with haymakers from last week but that wouldn't remotely work in a modern ring. If am wrong, point me to the analogous fighter today. Even Peter had more science, better defense and footwork than Baer.

He's a dream come true for Wlad.

Picked apart and stopped with major damage in the 8th.

[janitor]

Baer may have been able to chase around those inept midgets of the 30's winding up with haymakers from last week but that wouldn't remotely work in a modern ring. If am wrong, point me to the analogous fighter today. Even Peter had more science, better defense and footwork than Baer.



Well I can tell you one thing with absolute certainty.

Wlad would loose if he went into the fight with the same estimate of Baers style and abilities as yourself.

There is a reason why Baer got to the top of a heavyweight division with far more technicians than todays.

[Tony_Jones]

Baer may have been able to chase around those inept midgets of the 30's winding up with haymakers from last week but that wouldn't remotely work in a modern ring. If am wrong, point me to the analogous fighter today. Even Peter had more science, better defense and footwork than Baer.

He's a dream come true for Wlad.

Picked apart and stopped with major damage in the 8th.

Im actually with you on this. Baer is aweful technically and against somepone with the fundamentals and sheer physical advantages would cripple him in brutal, clinical fashion.

[Seamus]

Well I can tell you one thing with absolute certainty.

Wlad would loose if he went into the fight with the same estimate of Baers style and abilities as yourself.

There is a reason why Baer got to the top of a heavyweight division with far more technicians than todays.

Watching Baer on film I can only afford myself so much suspension of disbelief. His is absolutely horrible in his skills. What he has is toughness (against anyone not named Joe Louis), a chin and a great punch that he telegraphs from the Mesozoic Age. All things taken equal, that they both come in equally motivated and prepared, that's just not near enough to beat Steward-era Wlad.

[McGrain]

I swear, there are some people on this forum who would pick Tex Cobb to beat Klitschko, and soley on the basis that he has " a granite chin and a big punch. "


I'd be absolutley astonished if you could produce such a person on this forum.

[McGrain]

Watching Baer on film I can only afford myself so much suspension of disbelief. His is absolutely horrible in his skills. What he has is toughness (against anyone not named Joe Louis).

Against Louis, Baer shifts one of the most incredible beatings in ring history. You don't think he shows toughness? I don't think you've seen it.

[Tony_Jones]

Watching Baer on film I can only afford myself so much suspension of disbelief. His is absolutely horrible in his skills. What he has is toughness (against anyone not named Joe Louis), a chin and a great punch that he telegraphs from the Mesozoic Age. All things taken equal, that they both come in equally motivated and prepared, that's just not near enough to beat Steward-era Wlad.

I often think that with alot of old fight footage lol Theres a tendency throughout sports (and life in general in fact) to sentimentalize the past and place it on an unreachable pedestal when the truth is often far more complex and often the contrary e.g. comparing footballers of the 50's with those of more recent decades. Theres also somethiong called confirmation bias which is when you expect a certain outcome or result, you will tend towards noting things which confirm that result. Those things become more perceptually salient so to speak. I also think its easy to join the ranks of the boxing historians and share in their hyperbole. Everybody wants to appear knowledgable about the sport they love and spout names and fights and anecdotes etc. Theres a certain 'prestige' and respect one is afforded by other less knowledagable fans. But how anybody can comment acurately on say for instance Harry Greb is beyond me. The footage ive seen of him training is the epitome of hilarity lol i mean come on fellas! Baer is just aweful though, i mean really bad. What some refer to as unorthodox or 'zany' angles are what most would refer to (esepcially so if the person throwing those shots was a 00's HW) as sloppy and technically destitute.

And before people start jumping all over this, im not a hater by any means. I have fighters from across history i like (SRR, Louis, Loche, Olivares, Gomez, Napoles, Zapata, Pacquiao, Hearns, Curry, Arguello, Whitaker, JCC, Toney etc.) Anyways, that was fun lol take it easy guys

[mr. magoo]

Against Louis, Baer shifts one of the most incredible beatings in ring history. You don't think he shows toughness? I don't think you've seen it.


I would not call this one of the most incredible beatings in ring history nor even close. Baer got his arse kicked, no doubt, but he was only in serious trouble for perhaps 2 rounds of the 4 that he lasted. In fact, the fight should have ended in round 3 but baer was rescued from a KO by the bell. I would hardly place this on par with such beatings as Liston-Wepner, Ali-Quarry, Holmes-Cooney, Tyson-Ribalta, etc..etc..

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[Flea Man]

Look at the form of those punches and think about who is throwing. That's why Baer shows how tough he is.

[McGrain]

I would not call this one of the most incredible beatings in ring history nor even close. Baer got his arse kicked, no doubt, but he was only in serious trouble for perhaps 2 rounds of the 4 that he lasted. In fact, the fight should have ended in round 3 but baer was rescued from a KO by the bell. I would hardly place this on par with such beatings as Liston-Wepner, Ali-Quarry, Holmes-Cooney, Tyson-Ribalta, etc..etc..

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If you like.

But Baer ships 20 flush or near flush power punches, numerous jabs and cuff punches to perhaps the best offensive machine in boxing history in round one, alone.

The beating he absorbs laterly is insane. I won't argue it's place in the history of ring beatings, but to insue that Max fails to demonstrate toughness here is a crazy thing to say.

[mr. magoo]

Yes...

He took a lot of hard shots..

[Seamus]

Against Louis, Baer shifts one of the most incredible beatings in ring history. You don't think he shows toughness? I don't think you've seen it.

He was beaten before the fight, a total wreck in the dressing room. Yeah, he had a chin but he was completely psyched out. I don't think you've read about it.

[McGrain]

He was beaten before the fight, a total wreck in the dressing room. Yeah, he had a chin but he was completely psyched out. I don't think you've read about it.

...even if he was totally psyched out and i haven't really read up on it nearly enough how would that affect the toughness he demonstrated in absorbing such a massive beating from perhaps the greatest puncher in history as evidenced on film?

Additionally, the first shots Baer really, really ships are down to his bringing the attack to his heralded foe. Hardly a McCall type breakedown then.

[djanders]

I have only seen part of the fight between Baer and Carnera, but my deceased uncle saw the entire fight and I still have his scoring. On rounds, he had it 6-4 Baer going into round 11. He knew his boxing and I trust his score as being fairly close. He said the guy who watched the fight with him had it 6-3-1 Baer, through 10.

As for Max Baer aginst Wladimir Klitschko. If I can use the Baer who beat Schmeling and Carnera, I would definitely bet on Baer. Wladimir has never seen anything in the ring that remotely resembles Max Baer and I believe Max's style (if you can call it that) would greatly disturb Wlad...to the point that Max would stop him...in my opinion. I can't even imagine where they would find a sparring partner for Wlad who could mimic Baer!

[M.Alexander]

I don´t know if there are really people who think that fight is anything other than a missmatch.

Baer´s and all the others pre war era-HW´s 30´es style is not appropriate for nowadays world class HW´s....

[janitor]

Watching Baer on film I can only afford myself so much suspension of disbelief. His is absolutely horrible in his skills. What he has is toughness (against anyone not named Joe Louis), a chin and a great punch that he telegraphs from the Mesozoic Age. All things taken equal, that they both come in equally motivated and prepared, that's just not near enough to beat Steward-era Wlad.

Well lets look at the facts.

Baer won the title by dominating a much larger and more technicaly skilled fighter in Carnera. That in itself should set warning bells riunging in your head about your asesment of his skills.

To get into the title fight he beat one of the best counterpunchers of all time in Max Schmeling. Call Schmeling a cruiserweight if you like but there is nobody in todays heavyweight division with his skillset.

If your interpretation of Baer was right then both these fighters should have beaten him or at least dominated him on the score cards untill they were stopped.

You are missing something here.

[Seamus]

...even if he was totally psyched out and i haven't really read up on it nearly enough how would that affect the toughness he demonstrated in absorbing such a massive beating from perhaps the greatest puncher in history as evidenced on film?

Additionally, the first shots Baer really, really ships are down to his bringing the attack to his heralded foe. Hardly a McCall type breakedown then.

Semantics aside, my point was that Max DID POSSESS toughness in spades, the only aberration being the Louis fight where was a mess, still standing and taking punishment, but mentally beat before he entered the ring. That's not an indictment against his toughness but a defense of it.

[McGrain]

Semantics aside, my point was that Max DID POSSESS toughness in spades, the only aberration being the Louis fight where was a mess, still standing and taking punishment, but mentally beat before he entered the ring. That's not an indictment against his toughness but a defense of it.


It's not a case of "semantics" when you imply Baer didn't show toughness against Louis and I say he did...but as you say, yeah.

[ChrisPontius]

If you like.

But Baer ships 20 flush or near flush power punches, numerous jabs and cuff punches to perhaps the best offensive machine in boxing history in round one, alone.

The beating he absorbs laterly is insane. I won't argue it's place in the history of ring beatings, but to insue that Max fails to demonstrate toughness here is a crazy thing to say.

To quote Larry Merchant "If his point is to get in the opponent's chest and take punches until he tires...... what happens if he doesn't?". Sorry, i don't want to unchain the beast again, i just wanted to quote the great Merchant. :D



Are you not some sort of student :lol: I sort of presumed that for some reason :lol:


Yes i am. But i gotta pay the rent, too!

[mr. magoo]

I don´t know if there are really people who think that fight is anything other than a missmatch.

Baer´s and all the others pre war era-HW´s 30´es style is not appropriate for nowadays world class HW´s....

I don't know if I agree with the general statement that " all other pre war fighters" are poorly suited for the styles of some today's men... But, I do concur that Max Baer and Wladimir Klitschko, specifically is a poor match-up.

I respect Baer's power and toughness, but His skills are very unpolished and lacking in some ground level basics such as a jab and a good defense. Wlad's boxing ability combined with his power and physical advantages are a bad combination for a guy like Baer. Max could take a good punch, but he couldn't just get pounded on all night long and expect to win... Wlad would likely outbox him comfortably for several rounds, while Baer eats up a ton of leather that is not exactly to the referee's or ringside doctor's liking....

I can see a stoppage within 7-9 rounds...

[djanders]

I don´t know if there are really people who think that fight is anything other than a missmatch.

Baer´s and all the others pre war era-HW´s 30´es style is not appropriate for nowadays world class HW´s....

That thinking might be a hard sell to people who have actually seen some of those pre war era heavyweights fight. :D

[JIm Broughton]

If Baer wins this match it would be by KO similar to the way Corrie Sanders beat Wlad. Jump on him early and never let him off the hook. Max isn't going to outbox Wlad as Wlad is technically Superior in every aspect and can punch as well. Max's best(and only) chance as I see it would be to charge Wlad and land a winging right hand that hurts Wlad and forces him to backup. If he does then Max has a good chance to follow up with a few more powerful swipes and end it as Wlad does not have a very good chin. If he can't get through Wlad's defense and superior skills then I see the bigger Wlad keeping Max at the end of his jab until he lands his own powerful(and straighter) right hand enough times to end it. This I feel is the more likely outcome.

[Unforgiven]

Almost anyone could outbox Max Baer and almost anyone could get knocked out by him.

Wladimir falls into both those typical groupings. He outboxes Baer easily ..... unless he gets knocked out.