The Top fighter of the Century

[JohnThomas1]

1999 list, and have a Captain Cook at the judging panel!!!!!

As voted by a five-member panel of experts assembled by Associated Press. First-place votes are in parenthesis; points based on 10 points for a first-place vote down to one point for a 10th-place vote. When a division has five selections, a first-place vote is worth five points. POUND-FOR-POUND


1 Sugar Ray Robinson (2) 45
2 Muhammad Ali (2) 38
3 Henry Armstrong 30
4 Joe Louis 29
5 Willie Pep (1) 27
6 Jack Dempsey 20
7 Roberto Duran 14
8 Benny Leonard 13
9 Billy Conn 12
10 Harry Greb 7

HEAVYWEIGHTS
1 Muhammad Ali (2) 46
2 Joe Louis (2) 45
3 Rocky Marciano (1) 38
4 Jack Dempsey 28
5= Jack Johnson 22
5= Larry Holmes 22
7 Sonny Liston 14
8 Joe Frazier 13
9= *Sam Langford 8 9= Jersey Joe Walcott 8

LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHTS
1 Archie Moore (2) 41
2 Billy Conn (2) 34
3 *Ezzard Charles (1) 29
4 Roy Jones Jnr 26
5= *Jimmy Bivins 24
5= Bob Foster 24
7 Harold Johnson 21
8= Philadelphia Jack O'Brien 13
8= *Tiger Jack Fox 13
10 Maxie Rosenbloom 11

MIDDLEWEIGHTS
1 Sugar Ray Robinson (4) 49
2 Harry Greb (1) 42
3 Marvin Hagler 28
4 Mickey Walker 26
5 Carlos Monzon 21
6 *Charley Burley 20
7 Jake La Motta 19
8 Stanley Ketchel 15
9 Marcel Cerdan 12
10 Tony Zale 11

WELTERWEIGHTS
1 Sugar Ray Robinson (4) 40
2 Henry Armstrong (1) 31
3 Sugar Ray Leonard 28
4 Jose Napoles 23
5 Barney Ross 21
6 Carmen Basilio 19
7 Mickey Walker 16
8 Emile Griffith 15
9 Kid Gavilan 14
10 Luis Rodriguez 12

JUNIOR WELTERWEIGHTS (Five Selections)
1 Aaron Pryor (1) 14
2 Barney Ross (2) 13
3 Tony Canzoneri 11
4 Wilfred Benitez (1) 10
5 Antonio Cervantes 7
Jack "Kid" Berg received the other first place, but got no other points

LIGHTWEIGHTS
1 Roberto Duran (3) 41
2 Benny Leonard 37
3 Tony Canzoneri 33
4 Ike Williams 28
5 Joe Gans (2) 21
6= Lou Ambers 20 6= Alexis Arguello 20
8 Julio Cesar Chavez 13
9 Beau Jack 12
10 Carlos Ortiz 7

JUNIOR LIGHTWEIGHTS (Five Selections)
1 Alexis Arguello (2) 19
2 Kid Chocolate (1) 16
3 Julio Cesar Chavez (1) 12
4 Johnny Dundee (1) 8
5 Sandy Saddler 6

FEATHERWEIGHTS
1 Willie Pep (3) 47
2 Sandy Saddler (1) 42
3 Salvador Sanchez 28
4 Tony Canzoneri 17
5 Chalky Wright 16
6= Henry Armstrong (1) 15
6= Vicente Saldivar 15
8= Wilfredo Gomez 13
8= Azumah Nelson 13
10 Abe Attell 10

BANTAMWEIGHTS
1= Ruben Olivares 36
1= Carlos Zarate (1) 36
3 Eder Jofre (1) 33
4 Panama Al Brown (1) 27
5 Manuel Ortiz (1) 18
6= Lionel Rose 15
6= Fighting Harada 15
8 Alfonso Zamora 14
9 Sixto Escobar (1) 13
10 Jimmy Carruthers 9

FLYWEIGHTS
1= Miguel Canto (1) 26
1= Pancho Villa 26
3 Jimmy Wilde (2) 25
4 Fidel La Barba (1) 24
5 Frankie Genaro 15
6 Small Montana 13
7 Charchai Chionoi 12
8 Ricardo Lopez 11
9= Corporal Izzy Schwartz 10
9= Jackie Patterson 10


* fighter was never a champion in division in which he is ranked.
one panelist declined to vote for the flyweight division.

THE PANELISTS
Members of the panel that selected the greatest boxers of the century for Associated Press

ANGELO DUNDEE
Best known as the trainer of Muhammad Ali and Sugar Ray Leonard. Dundee has also worked with several other champions, including the welterweight and middleweight Carmen Basilio, the welterweight Jose Napoles, the light heavyweight Willie Pastrano, the featherweight Sugar Ramos and the welterweight Luis Rodriguez. Revered as one of boxing's great cut men.

LOU DUVA
The long-time promoter, manager and trainer. Duva has worked with such champions as the heavyweights Evander Holyfield and Michael Moorer, the junior welterweight Meldrick Taylor, and Pernell Whitaker, a champion in four weight classes.

DON CHARGIN
The long-time promoter who is based in California. Also has worked as a second and manager. Given a second's licence in 1945 and promoted first show in 1950.

EDDIE FUTCH
The Detroit Golden Gloves lightweight champion in 1933, Futch trained at same gym as Joe Louis. Often sparred with Louis when Louis needed speed work. The Hall of Famer trained 19 world champions, including the heavyweight Joe Frazier, the welterweight Don Jordan, the heavyweight Larry Holmes, the light heavyweight Michael Spinks, Alexis Arguello, a champion in three weight classes, and the welterweight Marlon Starling.

GIL CLANCY
Trained and managed Emile Griffith, the welterweight and middleweight champion. Also guided the careers of the middleweight champion Rodrigo Valdez and the heavyweight contender Jerry Quarry, and briefly trained George Foreman. Serves as a boxing adviser to Oscar De La Hoya. In 1978- 80, was the matchmaker for Madison Square Garden. Has worked as a boxing analyst for several TV networks. Is a member of the International Boxing Hall of Fame.

[JohnThomas1]

Pretty funny Spinks can't make the top 10 light heavies :lol:

[JohnThomas1]

Conn at #9 P4P :lol:

[turpinr]

marciano No.3 at heavy.no benny lynch in the flyweights.no no no

[fists of fury]

Why oh why is Angelo Dundee even allowed to participate in these things? You know he's going to give Ali the #1 slot, no matter what.

[turpinr]

should have dug nat fleicsher up ,he'd have had bold bloody bendigo in it

[fists of fury]

Roy Jones at number 4 at 175...is this a joke?

[turpinr]

frankie genaro No.5 flyweight puhlease.he wouldn't have been british champ in britain in the 30's

[fists of fury]

Nice to see Whitaker doing so well at lightweight.

[Unforgiven]

Conn at #9 P4P :lol:

That's actually a reasonable placing.
Conn was outweighed by 25-30 pounds when he fought Joe Louis and gave Louis one of his hardest fights. Louis was in his prime. So if Louis was good at his weight, then Conn must be pretty good pound-for-pound.
No one beat him at light-heavyweight or heavyweight apart from Joe Louis. And apart from a novice fight when he was 17, no one stopped him apart from Joe Louis.

[turpinr]

the light heavy placings don't actually look too bad imo if they were shuffled about a bit.

[JohnThomas1]

That's actually a reasonable placing.
Conn was outweighed by 25-30 pounds when he fought Joe Louis and gave Louis one of his hardest fights. Louis was in his prime. So if Louis was good at his weight, then Conn must be pretty good pound-for-pound.
No one beat him at light-heavyweight or heavyweight apart from Joe Louis. And apart from a novice fight when he was 17, no one stopped him apart from Joe Louis.

Lets put him #9 P4P for a losing effort :huh

It's a horrific placing.

[JohnThomas1]

the light heavy placings don't actually look too bad imo if they were shuffled about a bit.

Without Michael Spinks?

They are shyte without him at the very least.

[turpinr]

Without Michael Spinks?

They are shyte without him at the very least.:patsch:patschdidn't see that.in that case one of them has to go to make room for spinks
philly jack O'brien sorry mate

[Unforgiven]

Lets put him #9 P4P for a losing effort :huh

It's a horrific placing.

Joe Louis weighed 200 pounds for the Conn fight, and who would you rank over Louis at 200 pounds ?
Conn proved himself great pound-for-pound by the fact that only Louis beat him when he was matured, and he beat everyone else he faced ( a long list of good and great fighters). Louis outweighed him 25 or 30 pounds.
Some of the guys above him on the list never gave up hardly any weight to any of their opponents, nevermind giving a prime ATG of Louis stature and with 20-30 pounds advantage a tough fight.
A losing effort isn't enough by itself to put him up there, but without the losses to Louis, Conn is still unbeaten at light-heavy and heavy.
If Aaron Pryor, for example, had stepped in the ring with a prime Marvin Hagler weighing 139 pounds to Hagler's 159 and took the lead and outboxed him for the best part of 13 rounds before being KO'd there's no way that wouldn't be cause to consider him significantly greater pound-for-pound than he'd rate without it. IMO.

Not saying I'd have Conn in my top 10, but it's reasonable, and I might not even have him in my top 30 - and that goes for others on the list too.

[fists of fury]

Jack Dempsey at #6 P4P is more of a crime than Conn at #9, I'll say that.

[turpinr]

i'm a big fan of billy conn but he's not p4p top10 material

[ChrisPontius]

Jack Dempsey at #6 P4P is more of a crime than Connn at #9, I'll say that.

Exactly. :lol: I wouldn't even put Dempsey at #6 heavyweights only, and in a pound for pound sense, there are soo many champions who did not sit on their throne for 3 years, who did not set the record in avoiding the #1 contender for seven years, who did not beat the best heavyweights or lightheavyweights of their era, etc etc.

Ali at #2 is pretty bad, too, of course, although i will say the odds are stacked against heavyweights, in a p4p sense.




Nice read, by the way.

[JohnThomas1]

Joe Louis weighed 200 pounds for the Conn fight, and who would you rank over Louis at 200 pounds ?
Conn proved himself great pound-for-pound by the fact that only Louis beat him when he was matured, and he beat everyone else he faced ( a long list of good and great fighters). Louis outweighed him 25 or 30 pounds.
Some of the guys above him on the list never gave up hardly any weight to any of their opponents, nevermind giving a prime ATG of Louis stature and with 20-30 pounds advantage a tough fight.
A losing effort isn't enough by itself to put him up there, but without the losses to Louis, Conn is still unbeaten at light-heavy and heavy.
If Aaron Pryor, for example, had stepped in the ring with a prime Marvin Hagler weighing 139 pounds to Hagler's 159 and took the lead and outboxed him for the best part of 13 rounds before being KO'd there's no way that wouldn't be cause to consider him significantly greater pound-for-pound than he'd rate without it. IMO.

Not saying I'd have Conn in my top 10, but it's reasonable, and I might not even have him in my top 30 - and that goes for others on the list too.

Well he sure won't be making my top 20. Top fighter but not even in the mix
here. Comparing pounds difference over 180 - 200 pounds is hugely different to 139 - 159.

There's stacks of fighters with better claims.

[JohnThomas1]

Jack Dempsey at #6 P4P is more of a crime than Connn at #9, I'll say that.


Indeed, but Dempsey in such a placing is very commonplace, god help us. Rarely do we see Conn in a top 10.

It's all nice to think it's a welcome change or whatever, but it's simply ludicrous IMO.

[mcvey]

1999 list, and have a Captain Cook at the judging panel!!!!!

As voted by a five-member panel of experts assembled by Associated Press. First-place votes are in parenthesis; points based on 10 points for a first-place vote down to one point for a 10th-place vote. When a division has five selections, a first-place vote is worth five points. POUND-FOR-POUND


1 Sugar Ray Robinson (2) 45
2 Muhammad Ali (2) 38
3 Henry Armstrong 30
4 Joe Louis 29
5 Willie Pep (1) 27
6 Jack Dempsey 20
7 Roberto Duran 14
8 Benny Leonard 13
9 Billy Conn 12
10 Harry Greb 7

HEAVYWEIGHTS
1 Muhammad Ali (2) 46
2 Joe Louis (2) 45
3 Rocky Marciano (1) 38
4 Jack Dempsey 28
5= Jack Johnson 22
5= Larry Holmes 22
7 Sonny Liston 14
8 Joe Frazier 13
9= *Sam Langford 8 9= Jersey Joe Walcott 8

LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHTS
1 Archie Moore (2) 41
2 Billy Conn (2) 34
3 *Ezzard Charles (1) 29
4 Roy Jones Jnr 26
5= *Jimmy Bivins 24
5= Bob Foster 24
7 Harold Johnson 21
8= Philadelphia Jack O'Brien 13
8= *Tiger Jack Fox 13
10 Maxie Rosenbloom 11

MIDDLEWEIGHTS
1 Sugar Ray Robinson (4) 49
2 Harry Greb (1) 42
3 Marvin Hagler 28
4 Mickey Walker 26
5 Carlos Monzon 21
6 *Charley Burley 20
7 Jake La Motta 19
8 Stanley Ketchel 15
9 Marcel Cerdan 12
10 Tony Zale 11

WELTERWEIGHTS
1 Sugar Ray Robinson (4) 40
2 Henry Armstrong (1) 31
3 Sugar Ray Leonard 28
4 Jose Napoles 23
5 Barney Ross 21
6 Carmen Basilio 19
7 Mickey Walker 16
8 Emile Griffith 15
9 Kid Gavilan 14
10 Luis Rodriguez 12

JUNIOR WELTERWEIGHTS (Five Selections)
1 Aaron Pryor (1) 14
2 Barney Ross (2) 13
3 Tony Canzoneri 11
4 Wilfred Benitez (1) 10
5 Antonio Cervantes 7
Jack "Kid" Berg received the other first place, but got no other points

LIGHTWEIGHTS
1 Roberto Duran (3) 41
2 Benny Leonard 37
3 Tony Canzoneri 33
4 Ike Williams 28
5 Joe Gans (2) 21
6= Lou Ambers 20 6= Alexis Arguello 20
8 Julio Cesar Chavez 13
9 Beau Jack 12
10 Carlos Ortiz 7

JUNIOR LIGHTWEIGHTS (Five Selections)
1 Alexis Arguello (2) 19
2 Kid Chocolate (1) 16
3 Julio Cesar Chavez (1) 12
4 Johnny Dundee (1) 8
5 Sandy Saddler 6

FEATHERWEIGHTS
1 Willie Pep (3) 47
2 Sandy Saddler (1) 42
3 Salvador Sanchez 28
4 Tony Canzoneri 17
5 Chalky Wright 16
6= Henry Armstrong (1) 15
6= Vicente Saldivar 15
8= Wilfredo Gomez 13
8= Azumah Nelson 13
10 Abe Attell 10

BANTAMWEIGHTS
1= Ruben Olivares 36
1= Carlos Zarate (1) 36
3 Eder Jofre (1) 33
4 Panama Al Brown (1) 27
5 Manuel Ortiz (1) 18
6= Lionel Rose 15
6= Fighting Harada 15
8 Alfonso Zamora 14
9 Sixto Escobar (1) 13
10 Jimmy Carruthers 9

FLYWEIGHTS
1= Miguel Canto (1) 26
1= Pancho Villa 26
3 Jimmy Wilde (2) 25
4 Fidel La Barba (1) 24
5 Frankie Genaro 15
6 Small Montana 13
7 Charchai Chionoi 12
8 Ricardo Lopez 11
9= Corporal Izzy Schwartz 10
9= Jackie Patterson 10


* fighter was never a champion in division in which he is ranked.
one panelist declined to vote for the flyweight division.

THE PANELISTS
Members of the panel that selected the greatest boxers of the century for Associated Press

ANGELO DUNDEE
Best known as the trainer of Muhammad Ali and Sugar Ray Leonard. Dundee has also worked with several other champions, including the welterweight and middleweight Carmen Basilio, the welterweight Jose Napoles, the light heavyweight Willie Pastrano, the featherweight Sugar Ramos and the welterweight Luis Rodriguez. Revered as one of boxing's great cut men.

LOU DUVA
The long-time promoter, manager and trainer. Duva has worked with such champions as the heavyweights Evander Holyfield and Michael Moorer, the junior welterweight Meldrick Taylor, and Pernell Whitaker, a champion in four weight classes.

DON CHARGIN
The long-time promoter who is based in California. Also has worked as a second and manager. Given a second's licence in 1945 and promoted first show in 1950.

EDDIE FUTCH
The Detroit Golden Gloves lightweight champion in 1933, Futch trained at same gym as Joe Louis. Often sparred with Louis when Louis needed speed work. The Hall of Famer trained 19 world champions, including the heavyweight Joe Frazier, the welterweight Don Jordan, the heavyweight Larry Holmes, the light heavyweight Michael Spinks, Alexis Arguello, a champion in three weight classes, and the welterweight Marlon Starling.

GIL CLANCY
Trained and managed Emile Griffith, the welterweight and middleweight champion. Also guided the careers of the middleweight champion Rodrigo Valdez and the heavyweight contender Jerry Quarry, and briefly trained George Foreman. Serves as a boxing adviser to Oscar De La Hoya. In 1978- 80, was the matchmaker for Madison Square Garden. Has worked as a boxing analyst for several TV networks. Is a member of the International Boxing Hall of Fame.

I have seen worse lists.
Marciano is too high for me.He maybe makes no 9 or 10.Lewis in place of Langford, Frazier might just scrape in the ten over Holyfield.No he doesn't,just spotted no Big George, he gets in the middle of my pack ,goodbye Joe.
In the LHVY division,O Brien is way overated imo ,he beat an old man for the title and never defended it.NO WAY he should be in here and Spinks and Loughran not. Bivins is too high imo,and Fox is marginal for a placing imo.John Henry Lewis should be in front of him,and no Tunney at LHVY?.
Not too much wrong with the Middles, though Greb would be my no 1,and Tiger probably gets in front of Zale and Cerdan.
Jack Britton and Ted Kid Lewis should make the Welter list,sorry Luis, not sure which other welter to move out ,so maybe Kid Lewis stays just outside the ten.
Leonard is my no 1 Lightweight with Gans ,Williams and Duran behind him,I would put Kid Lavigne in and take out Jack , but he is from the previous century , So Brown instead of Jack for me.
Wright should not be in the top ten feathers,imo ,and if Attell is ,Driscoll should be in front of him,imo.
The Bantams look reasonable, though Jofre followed by Olivares and Zarate would be my picks.
The bottom six of the flys are very debatable.
Why no Benny Lynch or Peter Kane ?Sshwartz and Carruthers ,but no Perez, ------------------------- bollocks.
I dont rank junior divisions.

[Flea Man]

Greb behind Dempsey :rofl

[Flea Man]

Small Montana placed over Benny Lynch?!?!?!?!?

[Unforgiven]

Robert Duran in the top 10. :rofl

[Flea Man]

Duran should dfeinitely be in the top 10.

[turpinr]

Duran should dfeinitely be in the top 10.
no doubt about it:good

[Bill Butcher]

Why is Marciano ahead of Dempsey in the HWT category & yet Rocky doesnt make the top 10 p4p list & Dempsey is 6th ?

Why is Chavez not in the top 5 140 lbers ?

Why is Whitaker not in the 135 lb category ?


I agree with the top 2 p4p spots (Ali & SRR) & at least Pep makes the top 5 on the p4p list & no1 at FWT... all correct.

[Sweet Pea]

One of the finalists declined a vote for the Flyweight division? I think that tells us just about all we need to know about the credibility of that select little group.

[McGrain]

One of the finalists declined a vote for the Flyweight division? I think that tells us just about all we need to know about the credibility of that select little group.

:lol:

How do these lists happen like that? I love, love Billy Conn, I actualy think he is a bit underated on the board, but I wouldn't...etc etc.

[Flea Man]

Least I now have an answer to my small Montana question....obviously a good win for Lynch....this panel are thick as pig shit regardless of their credentials, frankenfrank and Asero would've come up with better lists :rofl

[frankenfrank]

Pretty funny Spinks can't make the top 10 light heavies :lol:
and also qawi , well , this is a panel of farts.

[PetethePrince]

Exactly. :lol: I wouldn't even put Dempsey at #6 heavyweights only, and in a pound for pound sense, there are soo many champions who did not sit on their throne for 3 years, who did not set the record in avoiding the #1 contender for seven years, who did not beat the best heavyweights or lightheavyweights of their era, etc etc.

Ali at #2 is pretty bad, too, of course, although i will say the odds are stacked against heavyweights, in a p4p sense.




Nice read, by the way.

P4P and historical legacy aren't the same, not in my understanding.

All these people worked in boxing, probably studied boxing and impact boxing. Love how there opinions are worthless and much more insignificant than ESB's.

[Shake]

Of course people like Eddie Futch have more boxing know-how than the five best posters on this site put together -- however, I doubt even one of them has put as much thought into historical rankings of fighters through the ages as say McGrain has. I mean, ranking and pitting fighters of different eras together is basically all we do around here.

[SgrRyLeonard]

Monzon should have been AT LEAST in the top 4 of the Middleweights.

[My2Sense]

Shit lists all around. Dempsey and Conn shouldn't be in the all time P4P, Ali and Pep are too high, Greb is way too low, and Langford is a notable omission. Moore as the #1 LHW (above Charles) is questionable at best, and Whitaker excluded from 135 and Spinks from 175 are absolute jokes. The FW list has Chalkey Wright and Wilfredo Gomez each rated one spot above a guy who kicked his ass, which is questionable at the very least (although putting Wright in the top 10 is questionable in any case IMO). Armstrong's rating on those lists is bizarre too - he's #6 at FW, omitted from 130-135 (where he was at his best) and then the #2 WW. :huh I could go on, but I think that says all you need to know right there.

[My2Sense]

All these people worked in boxing, probably studied boxing and impact boxing. Love how there opinions are worthless and much more insignificant than ESB's.

That's right, because their backgrounds create a serious conflict of interest. For example, Dundee was Ali's lifelong trainer/cornerman and a friend who still defends him as a fighter and a person to this very day. You don't think there's a conflict if he's asked to rank other fighters as compared to Ali?

[Bill Butcher]

Shit lists all around. Dempsey and Conn shouldn't be in the all time P4P, Ali and Pep are too high, Greb is way too low, and Langford is a notable omission. Moore as the #1 LHW (above Charles) is questionable at best, and Whitaker excluded from 135 and Spinks from 175 are absolute jokes. The FW list has Chalkey Wright and Wilfredo Gomez each rated one spot above a guy who kicked his ass, which is questionable at the very least (although putting Wright in the top 10 is questionable in any case IMO). Armstrong's rating on those lists is bizarre too - he's #6 at FW, omitted from 130-135 (where he was at his best) and then the #2 WW. :huh I could go on, but I think that says all you need to know right there.

As are you my friend :rasta

[elmaldito]

If you dont have spinks in your top 3 lt heavys, whitaker in your top 3 lightweights, or chicanito in your top 5 jr ltweights i cant respect your opinion.

[PunchOut]

NO JCC at 140???

this must be a fucking joke

[My2Sense]

As are you my friend :rasta

No I'm not. There are other fighters clearly worthier of those spots than them, therefore they deserve them more. It shouldn't be too hard of a concept to grasp, even for someone like you. :deal

[PetethePrince]

That's right, because their backgrounds create a serious conflict of interest. For example, Dundee was Ali's lifelong trainer/cornerman and a friend who still defends him as a fighter and a person to this very day. You don't think there's a conflict if he's asked to rank other fighters as compared to Ali?

Sure, but that's just one very little part of it. It's list of a top 10 from all the major divisions.

[My2Sense]

Sure, but that's just one very little part of it. It's list of a top 10 from all the major divisions.

But look at how many fighters that might be considered for any of these top 10s have some kind of obvious association with these guys.

-Dundee trained Ali, Basilio, Rodriguez, and Leonard, to name a few.

-Futch trained Spinks, Frazier, Norton, Arguello, and Holmes.

-Duva trained Whitaker and Holyfield.

That's just some of the associations that we actually know of.

Not only that, consider what fighters that might be on this list were essentially rivals of these guys.

-Dundee trained Basilio for both fights with Ray Robinson. Both Dundee and Basilio have professed to have a strong personal dislike for Robby.

-Duva trained at least three different fighters to go against JC Chavez, the results of all of which were all controversial and left him fuming.

-Clancy and Dundee's fighters had something of a rivalry in the '60s, as did Dundee and Futch in the '70s.

Simply put, there's way too many conflicts of interest here in asking guys like these to rate these fighters.

[McGrain]

That's just some of the associations that we actually know of.

Yeah, that's key. It goes further than you even say, I think. These guys have all met Larry Holmes, who is an asshole. If there's a cigarette paper between two guys would you rank the guy who shook your hand and smiled at you at canastota higher than the guy who was slightly off with your wife as a matter of course? Quite possibly.

Having said that, most posters have inherant biases too. But I have seen extraordinary lists on here, really good, totally lacking in bias. Sweet Pea circa 2008 deserves a mention here before he stopped giving a shit about lists, though there are many others.

All in all, given the Jack Demspey weirdness here, i'd take an average ESB list over any of these for reasons stated.

[fists of fury]

, i'd take an average ESB list over any of these for reasons stated.

Same here.

There's no question those gents know their boxing through and through, but as stated there is a professional vested interest in some fighters that will influence these rankings.

What I like about a forum such as this is that ideas are kicked about back and forth daily. We argue, debate, and exchange information and thoughts all the time, and as far as I'm concerned, it's a great way to put things into perspective.

Well, for some of us anyway. :lol:

[turpinr]

marciano and dempsey is still puzzling me.there must be about 4 or 5 of the light heavies who would beat those two.no michael spinks or benny lynch.i could understand there being no lynch because of the no-european bias ,but theres no excuse for leaving spinks out.

[McGrain]

marciano and dempsey is still puzzling me.there must be about 4 or 5 of the light heavies who would beat those two.

Which light-heavies would you pick to beat the Rock?

[turpinr]

foster,roy jones,spinks,ezzard charles,at his peak

[McGrain]

foster,roy jones,spinks,ezzard charles,at his peak


Got to disagree with you buddy.

Foster has the best chance on paper but the ease - ease - with which Frazier broke him down makes me think he has the worst chance in reality. For me, there is absolutley no way Jones is keeping Rocky of for 12 or 15 rounds and hasn't demonstrated anything like the heart/chin to make it reasonable to think he could survive Marciano. I think Charles gets his resistance broken like the real, although he might take 1/3 and I think a worse fate awates Spinks who was absolutley crushed by the other great HW puncher he met.

Rocky is so brutal, a real tidal wave of violence, I just don't think they have the physicality to survive.

[turpinr]

i must admit that when i put the names down i thought,mmmmmmmm maybe not.
i still don't think rocky is top 10 heavy material.he's not big enough for that.
somebody like lennox lewis would bomb him out.

[McGrain]

i must admit that when i put the names down i thought,mmmmmmmm maybe not.
i still don't think rocky is top 10 heavy material.he's not big enough for that.
somebody like lennox lewis would bomb him out.


I have him at ten. Huge great men would have beaten him, I think. But in terms of what he did? No point in going through it all, but I don't have a problem with him appearing in a top 10 depending on criteria because his achievments were incredible.

In terms of consistancy, mental strength and deployment of his abilities, no fighter in history overhauls him, and I think that this needs to be recognised.

[McGrain]

Imagine getting into the ring and knowing that every time you do you have to deploy yourself at absolute maximum to win becauase your style calls for it. It's amazing, realy, that he didn't drop off like the other great HW who rellied upon that top 1% of his intensity to win him fights, Joe Frazier. No wonder he stopped shaking hands of those who came to meet with him in the final week of training. He must have been buried inside himself in some really evil place. The man is a marvel.

[turpinr]

its not that i dislike rocky or have anything against his legacy.before randy turpin became my favourite fighter it was rocky.
i did my english oral exam about the rock and it must have impessed because i passed.

there was a lad that i boxed with in the 70's and his dad's hero was rocky.ithink he'd followed his fights when he was doing his national service in the 50's.i asked him one day about marciano and he surprised me by saying he didn't even think he'd beat johannson.
i think me and you will have to diagree about the rock.

[TheGreatA]

I would like to know how Eddie Futch and Gil Clancy voted. Not sure if Dundee or Duva are all that credible.

[mcvey]

I would like to know how Eddie Futch and Gil Clancy voted. Not sure if Dundee or Duva are all that credible.

I would have more respect for Dundee if he had walked away in Ali's last fights as Pacheco did. Duva is a mouth, a motivator but not a trainer Benton filled that role.

[turpinr]

gil clancy was the one who told buchanan that duran would run out of steam.D'oh

[TheGreatA]

I would have more respect for Dundee if he had walked away in Ali's last fights as Pacheco did. Duva is a mouth, a motivator but not a trainer Benton filled that role.

I just don't think Dundee is all that knowledgeable, not in comparison to Futch or Clancy.

gil clancy was the one who told buchanan that duran would run out of steam.D'oh

Clancy has gotten it wrong more than a few times, it's actually quite funny to listen to his commentary in some fights when he seems assured something is going to happen and the exact opposite does. Atleast he always admits he was wrong, unlike Manny Steward for example ("This is exactly how I thought the fight was going to end up" when he picked the other man to win).

Still knowledgeable though.

[fists of fury]

Duva is a mouth, a motivator but not a trainer Benton filled that role.

I'm willing to bet that the vote Rocky got as the top dog at heavyweight came from Duva. Nothing wrong with that really, but he always has and always will vote for The Rock. It's a forgone conclusion.

[frankenfrank]

Why oh why is Angelo Dundee even allowed to participate in these things? You know he's going to give Ali the #1 slot, no matter what.

and you will give it to louis or robinson no matter what.
see ? you are exactly like angelo dundee . the tiny difference is in your pick but the same amount and type of reasoning is common to you both , and many more here.

[Flea Man]

and you will give it to louis or robinson no matter what.
see ? you are exactly like angelo dundee . the tiny difference is in your pick but the same amount and type of reasoning is common to you both , and many more here.

look mate you need to be banned. you offer NOTHING to this board and barely speak English.

Typical Frankenfrank post; 'Langford could wear a turtle shell and fly through termites because Michael Bennt beat Tommy Morrison.'

[turpinr]

look mate you need to be banned. you offer NOTHING to this board and barely speak English.

Typical Frankenfrank post; 'Langford could wear a turtle shell and fly through termites because Michael Bennt beat Tommy Morrison.'i :nuti can see where he's coming from.when the sardines follow ze trawler.............:nut

[Mr Butt]

look mate you need to be banned. you offer NOTHING to this board and barely speak English.

Typical Frankenfrank post; 'Langford could wear a turtle shell and fly through termites because Michael Bennt beat Tommy Morrison.'


no dont ban him he gives his own opinions ok they may be a bit different but he makes me laugh

[Stevie G]

i must admit that when i put the names down i thought,mmmmmmmm maybe not.
i still don't think rocky is top 10 heavy material.he's not big enough for that.
somebody like lennox lewis would bomb him out.
Also Sonny Liston and George Foreman.

[turpinr]

Also Sonny Liston and George Foreman.without doubt

[Stevie G]

I would have more respect for Dundee if he had walked away in Ali's last fights as Pacheco did. Duva is a mouth, a motivator but not a trainer Benton filled that role.
I do n't think Dundee wanted Ali to have those last fights. He just took the attitude that if Muhammad had to take them,he'd be in his corner like he always was. I still wish that he'd retired after Manila. His life could have been very different today in consequence.

[turpinr]

i don't think dundee nor pacheco come out of those last fight with any kudos

[Stevie G]

i don't think dundee nor pacheco come out of those last fight with any kudos
Herbert Muhammad was the biggest slimeball in this instance. A lot of people think that if he'd advised Muhammad to retire,he'd have listened.

[Mr Butt]

Herbert Muhammad was the biggest slimeball in this instance. A lot of people think that if he'd advised Muhammad to retire,he'd have listened.

is herbert muhammad the bloke who said he came up with a lot of ali's famous saying's

[turpinr]

is herbert muhammad the bloke who said he came up with a lot of ali's famous saying's
:lol::lol::lol:yeah probably before they'd met:lol::lol::lol:

[Stevie G]

is herbert muhammad the bloke who said he came up with a lot of ali's famous saying's
I think it was Bundini Brown who claimed that.

[Mr Butt]

I think it was Bundini Brown who claimed that.


there was some bloke on the documentry about manila and he was not brown:good

and he claimed he told ali what to say at times including some of his famous stuff

[ChrisPontius]

All these people worked in boxing, probably studied boxing and impact boxing. Love how there opinions are worthless and much more insignificant than ESB's.

Just because they've trained boxers doesn't make them more knowledgeable about boxing's history. Plenty of posters here have also spent years and years analyzing fights and going over records. Besides, profession does not increase the validity of a list, although the reverse can be true.

[My2Sense]

gil clancy was the one who told buchanan that duran would run out of steam.D'oh

That's nothing! Eddie Futch is the guy who said Ken Norton was "ready to be taken" and Duane Bobick would blow through him in 1 round. :patsch

:lol::rofl

[PetethePrince]

Just because they've trained boxers doesn't make them more knowledgeable about boxing's history. Plenty of posters here have also spent years and years analyzing fights and going over records. Besides, profession does not increase the validity of a list, although the reverse can be true.

You can say being in the profession doesn't help the opinion, but can hurt it. There seems no budge with ESB and the stronghold to their opinions. That's okay, I was just trying to offer some perspective.

[Caponecartels]

You can say being in the profession doesn't help the opinion, but can hurt it. There seems no budge with ESB and the stronghold to their opinions. That's okay, I was just trying to offer some perspective.

:lol:

[PetethePrince]

:lol:

Because it's ironic or true? :D

[Sweet Pea]

Their job title and name in the boxing world doesn't have a goddamn thing to do with their knowledge of the history of boxing, the different eras and weight classes.

Let's take Teddy Atlas for example. A former trainer who's area of expertise lies in the analysis of styles and a fighter's strong and weak points. Based on that, he should be at least an adequate fight caller. Instead, he's one of the biggest jokes in the business in that regard.

It's even worse when you ask men of a similar mold (like Duva and Dundee) about the different eras and weight classes of the sport when that clearly isn't their focal point of area of concern in boxing. They got where they were because of a specific quality as trainers, handlers, managers, etc. Not because they all passed some Boxing Knowledge IQ Test.

I'm sorry, but I could not give a fuck less about their supposed credentials (none of which has anything to do with their knowledge of the history of the sport) when their lists point to contrary in regards to their knowledge. One of them even declined a vote for the Flyweights for Christs's sake.:lol:And you're telling us we have no right to criticize them? Sorry, but fuck that. Their lists fucking sucked and I'll continue to stand by that.

[PetethePrince]

Sorry, but fuck that. Their lists fucking sucked and I'll continue to stand by that.

I did? I think they're respectable people in boxing and don't think we should just throw their opinions out as worthless. That's all I was saying. I wouldn't say don't criticize them.

[Caponecartels]

I did? I think they're respectable people in boxing and don't think we should just throw their opinions out as worthless. That's all I was saying. I wouldn't say don't criticize them.

They can be the greatest trainer in the history of boxing
but if they don't have Whitaker in a top 5 lightweight list,
Spinks in top 5 Light-Heavyweight list , and have fucking Dempsey
in top 10 P4P, then yeah their opinion is garbage and shouldn't be taken seriously.
Oh and I was laughing cause I remember we had the exact
same discussion when we on FNR4. :lol:

[Caponecartels]

Let's take Teddy Atlas for example. A former trainer who's area of expertise lies in the analysis of styles and a fighter's strong and weak points. Based on that, he should be at least an adequate fight caller. Instead, he's one of the biggest jokes in the business in that regard.


When your right, your right.
I wonder why he is so horrible though.:think

[TheGreatA]

When your right, your right.
I wonder why he is so horrible though.:think

Picking every fight wrong takes as much talent as picking every fight right in my opinion.

[PetethePrince]

When your right, your right.
I wonder why he is so horrible though.:think

As much as you guys slay Atlas he is a smart and sharp guy, especially as a trainer. He doesn't always get it right but if anyone remembers the Moorer vs Foreman fight they remember him telling Moorer how Foreman was trying to con him and lull him inside. He said he's setting you up with that left to the body to move you to the right. About 10 seconds before the knockdown he yelled "Don't stand in front of him Michael!."

I'm not going to say he doesn't get it wrong often though. He seems to analyze and criticize out of emotion a bit much. And I think he overstates the psychological nature of fighters.

I like him as a commentator though for Friday Night Fights...

They can be the greatest trainer in the history of boxing
but if they don't have Whitaker in a top 5 lightweight list,
Spinks in top 5 Light-Heavyweight list , and have fucking Dempsey
in top 10 P4P, then yeah their opinion is garbage and shouldn't be taken seriously.
Oh and I was laughing cause I remember we had the exact
same discussion when we on FNR4. :lol:

Maybe, but I think that's oversimplifying things. It certainly can vary based on criteria. You can find tons of different looking lists for many different reasons. And Spinks is definitely not a lock as a top 5 LHW. In fact, the forum had him at #5 which goes to show he can definitely be outside that spot. I can't personally defend a top 10 listing but I don't know the criteria nor their reasons. I respect their outlook and perspective, at the very least

Having Dempsey P4P in your top 10 for them could be based on the single best, most motivated Dempsey. Again, if you take a sort of limited criteria, I don't find that to be all that ridiculous. If it's not based on achievement or legacy, in a case like that. Maybe that's why the P4P list is different than the top 10 list (Notice Rocky ahead of Dempsey).

[mcvey]

i don't think dundee nor pacheco come out of those last fight with any kudos
Pacheco walked away before that , he sent typed analysis reports of Ali's deterioration to Herbert Muhammad,Angelo Dundee and Ali himself ,and did not get a response from any of them so he quit.

[ChrisPontius]

You can say being in the profession doesn't help the opinion, but can hurt it. There seems no budge with ESB and the stronghold to their opinions. That's okay, I was just trying to offer some perspective.

You weren't offering respective, you were pretending asif their opinions are true and written in stone just because they trained boxers, which is a completely different thing to do.

Refer to Sweet Pea's post, what he said is exactly what i was thinking.


The list makes the man, not the other way around.

[McGrain]

The list makes the man, not the other way around.

Yes.

[PetethePrince]

You weren't offering respective, you were pretending asif their opinions are true and written in stone just because they trained boxers, which is a completely different thing to do.

Refer to Sweet Pea's post, what he said is exactly what i was thinking.


The list makes the man, not the other way around.

No I wasn't, don't act like you know what I was thinking.

[ChrisPontius]

No I wasn't, don't act like you know what I was thinking.

I don't act like i know what you're thinking. I do know what you wrote, though:


All these people worked in boxing, probably studied boxing and impact boxing. Love how there opinions are worthless and much more insignificant than ESB's.


...From which it's quite clear you put their opinions on a pedestal, or imply that in your opinion, they should be.

[Bill Butcher]

No I'm not. There are other fighters clearly worthier of those spots than them, therefore they deserve them more. It shouldn't be too hard of a concept to grasp, even for someone like you. :deal

I can accept Ali at no2 being too high in some peoples opinions, tho Id have him there personally, amazing ability & brilliant resume..... but to say Pep is too high at no5 is way off, he had as much pure boxing ability as anyone who ever boxed, probably more & is widely regarded as the best ever FWT, a weight class that has produced many brilliant boxers, he`s likely the best defensive fighter ever too.

Probably the only thing against him was that he never won titles in different weights but he was certainly a master of his own natural weight class, of that there is 0 doubt.

[PetethePrince]

I don't act like i know what you're thinking. I do know what you wrote, though:



...From which it's quite clear you put their opinions on a pedestal, or imply that in your opinion, they should be.

Me "All these people worked in boxing, probably studied boxing and impact boxing. Love how thereopinions are worthless and much more insignificant than ESB's."


No... you really need to improve your reading comprehension if that's what you're getting. I'm not even going to further explain if you actually decipher that as me putting their opinions on a pedestal. That is definitely not implied.

[Addie]

I fail to see how Gomez ever proved himself to be a better Featherweight than Marco Antonio Barrera. :verysad

[My2Sense]

I can accept Ali at no2 being too high in some peoples opinions, tho Id have him there personally, amazing ability & brilliant resume..... but to say Pep is too high at no5 is way off, he had as much pure boxing ability as anyone who ever boxed, probably more & is widely regarded as the best ever FWT, a weight class that has produced many brilliant boxers, he`s likely the best defensive fighter ever too.

Probably the only thing against him was that he never won titles in different weights but he was certainly a master of his own natural weight class, of that there is 0 doubt.

But there are other fighters who also mastered their own weight class, but also had more success at other weights and/or better resumes to go along with it. Look at Greb, Benny Leonard, Ezzard Charles, or Duran, to name a few. I don't see how Pep warrants being rated over those guys. As your post acknowledges, Pep gets an extra boost based on his form and ability over fighters that actually accomplished more.

Also, Pep's claim to being the #1 all time best in his weight class is probably the shakiest of all the fighters I mentioned, given that he lost 3 out of 4 to another fighter who is also a candidate for that top spot, even if he did have valid excuses for the losses. There's always been a heated debate over whether Pep or Saddler deserves to be rated as #1.

[McGrain]

Also, Pep's claim to being the #1 all time best in his weight class is the shakiest of any fighter listed, given that he lost 3 out of 4 to another fighter who is a candidate for that top spot, even if he did have valid excuses for the losses.

Would you rank Pep above Saddler at feather, or not?

[My2Sense]

Would you rank Pep above Saddler at feather, or not?

No.

Maybe tied, but not above.

[McGrain]

No.

Maybe tied, but not above.

I have Pep higher than Saddler, but I think there's a very decent case for having Saddler higher.

This is way off base, and not at all relevant, but do you agree that under modern rules over 12 rounds, Pep would tend to dominate Saddler?

[Bill Butcher]

But there are other fighters who also mastered their own weight class, but also had more success at other weights and/or better resumes to go along with it. Look at Greb, Benny Leonard, Ezzard Charles, or Duran, to name a few. I don't see how Pep warrants being rated over those guys. As your post acknowledges, Pep gets an extra boost based on his form and ability over fighters that actually accomplished more.

Also, Pep's claim to being the #1 all time best in his weight class is probably the shakiest of all the fighters I mentioned, given that he lost 3 out of 4 to another fighter who is also a candidate for that top spot, even if he did have valid excuses for the losses. There's always been a heated debate over whether Pep or Saddler deserves to be rated as #1.

There is probably more debate as to who was the best HWT, Ali or Louis than there is between Pep & Saddler at FWT.... most agree that its Pep anyway DESPITE losing 3-1, he only lost once pre plane crash, to a LWT in a close fight on points & has something like a 230-11-1 record & fought for about 26 yrs, he deserves his place on the p4p ATG list IMO.