Who's the P4P best fighter in the world?

[radab]

??

[socrates]

george st pierre

[québecwarrior]

St-Pierre has the best resume, but his loss vs Serra is still too recent, even if he destroyed him in the rematch.
It's Fedor spot until he lose

[Bill Butcher]

??

Fedor is the best & it should be Anderson Silva in 2nd IMO, not GSP.

[Weber]

St-Pierre has the best resume, but his loss vs Serra is still too recent, even if he destroyed him in the rematch.
It's Fedor spot until he lose

No way St-Pierres resume is better than Fedors.

[chimba]

p4p its Anderson Silva, hes moved up in weight and have fought as low as WW. Pretty much dominated any opponents from diff weight class so far.

That is the meaning of p4p which is your thread. Isnt this what you meant?

Now as far as the greatest fighter thats Fedor and Silva second

[Polymath]

Silva.

[196osh]

Fedor

[BoxinGKinG1993]

its anderson silva.
if fedor was so great he would haved signed with the ufc and proved it.
fedor is a BITCH.

[196osh]

Feel free to shut the fuck up and get the fuck out of the mma forum noob.

[BewareofDawg]

p4p its Anderson Silva, hes moved up in weight and have fought as low as WW. Pretty much dominated any opponents from diff weight class so far.

That is the meaning of p4p which is your thread. Isnt this what you meant?

Now as far as the greatest fighter thats Fedor and Silva second
I see what your saying with Anderson moving up in weight and I agree. I voted for Anderson. But don't forget that fedor is also fighting much bigger guys. It's my belief that Fedor could plausibly cut to 205 so he could be a Light Heavyweight. Their last two fights, Fedor vs AA and Silva vs Griffin, I believe Fedor gave up a greater "natural" size difference and AA is much more skilled then Griffin.

[chuffy]

Fedor

:good:good

[Dynamite Kid]

To be honest I can't even decide. Right now we have Fedor, Anderson Silva, and GSP that all have a strong case. They're just dominate and all 3 just keep making it look easy. I'd probably lean toward Fedor though if I had to make a choice.

[sugarngold]

Still have to give it to the Last Emperor Fedor.

[chimba]

I see what your saying with Anderson moving up in weight and I agree. I voted for Anderson. But don't forget that fedor is also fighting much bigger guys. It's my belief that Fedor could plausibly cut to 205 so he could be a Light Heavyweight. Their last two fights, Fedor vs AA and Silva vs Griffin, I believe Fedor gave up a greater "natural" size difference and AA is much more skilled then Griffin.

Then if thats the case, I need to see Fedor against a fast 205'er and cut down to that weight. Well...youd say we wont know because it never happened and I say precisely. With Anderson, I know..Ive seen him beat smaller guys and bigger guys with the same pizzazz,

As far as Fedor being outweighed by most HWs I agree thats fact. But again the counter argument is that Ive seen Anderson against a prime Sakurai and Carlos Newton and I must say, he was very good then and he is great now.

You cant have an Anderson Silva resume, it is mind boggling not just because of the names but the weight classes hes transcended

[jimmie]

Fedor and id rank Machida over Silva.

[smbsmd]

Fedor

[t-worm]

Fedor seems to have an answer to everything in the ring...he has such an incredible skill-set. His ground and pound is something to behold, its a frightening barrage of controlled rage.

[achillesthegreat]

Fedor is 6'1 and 230 pounds I think. He is small but has slayed giants and manhandled small guys. On top of that, at least 20 pounds of his weight is fat.

[BewareofDawg]

Fedor is 6'1 and 230 pounds I think. He is small but has slayed giants and manhandled small guys. On top of that, at least 20 pounds of his weight is fat.
Imagine him vs Griffin, Evans, Tito, Chuck, Rampage, Wandy, etc etc If he actually cut weight and fought at 205lbs he would be.....oh wait, he already is murdering people at heavyweight

To put this into perspective, imagine GSP NOT cutting weight and fighting at Middlewieght, or Penn fighitng at WW :deal

[achillesthegreat]

Imagine him vs Griffin, Evans, Tito, Chuck, Rampage, Wandy, etc etc If he actually cut weight and fought at 205lbs he would be.....oh wait, he already is murdering people at heavyweight

To put this into perspective, imagine GSP NOT cutting weight and fighting at Middlewieght, or Penn fighitng at WW :deal

I think it is achievable. I have no doubt Fedor could lose 15-20 pounds and cut 5 pounds or so.

Fedor would absolutely dominate like he is at heavy. Fedors grappling is of the highest order. His striking is quite terrible but he makes it work.

[radab]

I really like that arguement about Fedor not cutting any weight, being a small HW, but still accomplishing what he has. The way he dealt with things when he found himself underneath Hong Man Choi was an incredible sight to behold

Silva's looked unbeatable for a while now, but then he's never challenged himself in the same way Fedor has throughout his career. Fedor actually seems to enjoy fighting to his opponent's strengths to give himself the ultimate challenge (the Choi fight and the Arlovski fights for example)


Fedor KO2 Silva via muay thai clinch ;)

[Vitor Belfort]

No way St-Pierres resume is better than Fedors.


Fedor is the best fighter in the world. As far as resume is concern Fedor resume is better than GSP imo.

Heath Herring
Big Nog- in his prime
Fujita
Goodridge
Coleman-Former ufc champ
Randleman-former ufc champ
ogawa
Crocop-in his prime
Hunt
Lindland
Sylvia-Former 2 time ufc champ
Arlovski-former ufc champ

This guy is a beast

[jimmie]

Fedor is the best fighter in the world. As far as resume is concern Fedor resume is better than GSP imo.

Heath Herring
Big Nog- in his prime
Fujita
Goodridge
Coleman-Former ufc champ
Randleman-former ufc champ
ogawa
Crocop-in his prime
Hunt
Lindland
Sylvia-Former 2 time ufc champ
Arlovski-former ufc champ

This guy is a beast

Sorry bro Fedors resume is sick but the names you listed dont help that arguement.

[smbsmd]

if I remember correctly, Fedor has stated some day that his hardest fight was against Semmy Schilt

[Sloth]

Fedor no doubt. Silva is only considered because Dana White just says it over and over and over. But who has silva really fought? An old Dan Henderson was about it. The rest were one pump chumps and reality show nerds.

[Sloth]

Sorry bro Fedors resume is sick but the names you listed dont help that arguement.



Who's resume is better?:deal

[Sloth]

its anderson silva.
if fedor was so great he would haved signed with the ufc and proved it.
fedor is a BITCH.



Retard:patsch Who does the UFC have? Brock? Overrated, underskilled, and overhyped. Big Nog? Fedor has beaten him twice..IN HIS PRIME!! Mir?:rofl ..................Next

[chimba]

Fedor is 6'1 and 230 pounds I think. He is small but has slayed giants and manhandled small guys. On top of that, at least 20 pounds of his weight is fat.


You mean like Lindland, whose quickness gave him fits early

[jimmie]

Who's resume is better?:deal

Just going off of wins id honestly say GSP and Chuck Liddell for sure. However though after 30 plus fights with mostly top level fighters and to be unbeaten is just incredible. But agian when I stack up just wins I think Liddell has the best resume in MMA history.

[Vitor Belfort]

Sorry bro Fedors resume is sick but the names you listed dont help that arguement.

:patsch
Big Nog - in his prime, the 2nd greatest heavyweight ever in MMA
Crocop- in his prime at the time it was fedor-big nog-crocop were the top 3 heavyweights in the world
Arlovski- former ufc champ
Sylvia-former ufc champ
Coleman-past prime but still former ufc champ
Randleman-former ufc champ
Herring-fujita-ogawa-goodrich-hunt-lindland etc were solid heavyweights

[jimmie]

:patsch
Big Nog - in his prime, the 2nd greatest heavyweight ever in MMA
Crocop- in his prime at the time it was fedor-big nog-crocop were the top 3 heavyweights in the world
Arlovski- former ufc champ
Sylvia-former ufc champ
Coleman-past prime but still former ufc champ
Randleman-former ufc champ
Herring-fujita-ogawa-goodrich-hunt-lindland etc were solid heavyweights

What top guy had Herring ever beat ? Ogawa was medicore, Goodrich got fucking wrecked in just about every someone tough fight he was involved in during his Pride days, Lindland is a 185 pounder who was never even a Champion, Hunt was a good kickboxer but never a good MMA fighter.

[ufoalf]

Fedor, any nooby naysayers look here, it'll answer all your oh-so-common lame arguments.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[jimmie]

I aint got no beef with Fedor but dont show some of his weaker wins to prove how great his resume is.

[Vitor Belfort]

What top guy had Herring ever beat ? Ogawa was medicore, Goodrich got fucking wrecked in just about every someone tough fight he was involved in during his Pride days, Lindland is a 185 pounder who was never even a Champion, Hunt was a good kickboxer but never a good MMA fighter.

He can't fight champions all the time. GSP didn't fight the best every time. Heiron-pete spratt-jason miller-koscheck-parisyan etc etc. Those are good wins just like the herring-ogawa-goodrich etc

By the way Heath Herring had some good wins

Evan Tanner Rip
Tom Erikson
Mark Kerr
Igor Vovchanchyn
Gan Mcgee
Goodridge
Cheick Kongo

[jimmie]

He can't fight champions all the time. GSP didn't fight the best every time. Heiron-pete spratt-jason miller-koscheck-parisyan etc etc. Those are good wins just like the herring-ogawa-goodrich etc

By the way Heath Herring had some good wins

Evan Tanner Rip
Tom Erikson
Mark Kerr
Igor Vovchanchyn
Gan Mcgee
Goodridge
Cheick Kongo

Just awhole lot beter.

[sugarngold]

What sets Fedor at the top of the heap to this day is his undefeated record and the fact that he wrecked both Nogueira and Crocop who were tearing through everyone they faced at the time. Nogueira was submitting everyone and Crocop was knocking them all out. Fedor dominated them both at their best.

The problem Fedor now faces is that the heavyweight guard is changing and rather than keep up with the pack and face the new tough hungry challengers to his throne - he is feasting on a diet of less than worthy contenders. We'll just have to wait and see how the MMA landscape unfolds over the next year or two with regards to how it affects Fedor's status.

[MaliSlamusrex]

Fedor is not only the best MMA fighter in the world but also the best Sambo fighter.... says it all really.

[Vitor Belfort]

What sets Fedor at the top of the heap to this day is his undefeated record and the fact that he wrecked both Nogueira and Crocop who were tearing through everyone they faced at the time. Nogueira was submitting everyone and Crocop was knocking them all out. Fedor dominated them both at their best.

The problem Fedor now faces is that the heavyweight guard is changing and rather than keep up with the pack and face the new tough hungry challengers to his throne - he is feasting on a diet of less than worthy contenders. We'll just have to wait and see how the MMA landscape unfolds over the next year or two with regards to how it affects Fedor's status.


yup he beat big nog and crocop in their primes. The crocop and big nog now is no where near they were when fedor destroyed them. As far as fedor not fighting the best right now, i can't really blame him. He wanted to go fight in the ufc but dana white is too damn greedy. Remember when he wanted to fight couture when he was the champ but white would not allow him to fight for only one fight.

I still hope fedor could fight the overrated brock lesnar so dana white can STFU.

[Popkins]

??

For the moment, it has to be Fedor. He is the man on the throne, and there is no reason to dislodge him yet. Silva hasn't beaten enough quality names in the past year or so to justify it.

However, if Fedor continues to struggle for big name, top drawer competition, and Silva continues his run against the likes of Belfort, Henderson, Marquhart etc, we could see a changing of the guard soon.

GSP 3rd, Penn 4th, Machida 5th IMO. We have all the right men wearing the belts just now.

[ufoalf]

The fuck is Machida doin on everyones top list. I swear the guy got a free pass to top ranks way before he even did shit. He keeps getting his top p4p status even though he hasn't even defending his fucking title yet. Unbelievable.
For the sake of all that is reasonable I hope Shogun takes his fucking head off. In fact Shogun has beaten more quality opponents than Machida has.

[radab]

The fuck is Machida doin on everyones top list. I swear the guy got a free pass to top ranks way before he even did shit. He keeps getting his top p4p status even though he hasn't even defending his fucking title yet. Unbelievable.
For the sake of all that is reasonable I hope Shogun takes his fucking head off. In fact Shogun has beaten more quality opponents than Machida has.



Totally disagree. Machida's fucking awesome

[thejokerswild]

I really like that arguement about Fedor not cutting any weight, being a small HW, but still accomplishing what he has. The way he dealt with things when he found himself underneath Hong Man Choi was an incredible sight to behold

Silva's looked unbeatable for a while now, but then he's never challenged himself in the same way Fedor has throughout his career. Fedor actually seems to enjoy fighting to his opponent's strengths to give himself the ultimate challenge (the Choi fight and the Arlovski fights for example)


Fedor KO2 Silva via muay thai clinch ;)
this is it.

fedor easily by competition and unbeatable record. but also php doesn't take into account the triumphs of how you take those victorys. all the stories and legend that comes with the fighter.

gsp is a super athlete with formidable wins but do you see him as a legend like fedor/ali?

[The_Hitman92]

Fedor.

[Nosbor]

Fedor by far.....

He first defeated Big Nog in approximately his 14th fight and was not even considered the best heavyweight by many. Machida has basically the same amount of fights and he is being considered pound for pound material. Ummmm K!!!


On a seperate note: If Rogers somehow defeats Fedor, this would rival if not surpass the 1980 U.S. Olympic Hockey Team defeating the Soviets. Except I was happy the U.S. won.


Five years before Ovechkin was born.....

[OuterDrake]

Fedor will get ko by Brett Rogers.

you heard it here 1st.

[ufoalf]

Fedor by far.....

He first defeated Big Nog in approximately his 14th fight and was not even considered the best heavyweight by many. Machida has basically the same amount of fights and he is being considered pound for pound material. Ummmm K!!!


On a seperate note: If Rogers somehow defeats Fedor, this would rival if not surpass the 1980 U.S. Olympic Hockey Team defeating the Soviets. Except I was happy the U.S. won.


Five years before Ovechkin was born.....

To be fair MMA is a little more unpredictable than hockey. Not to mention USSR completely demolished US team a week before they lost.
I think nothing comes close to that loss.

[PUMPERG]

Fedor weak, it proved it by not taking the ufc offer, now he going to fight rogers lol!!!

[smbsmd]

Fedor weak, it proved it by not taking the ufc offer, now he going to fight rogers lol!!!


As mentioned during the press conference by Fedor himself, the real UFC offer was not the same as stated by Dana White.

So it is words of one man against words of another man. It is up to you who to believe, honest, quiet guy like Fedor or a trash talking crook like Dana White.

[codeman99998]

Fedor will get ko by Brett Rogers.

you heard it here 1st.

Nah, we heard it first from that one guy who loves Rogers and Evans. He seems to have disappeared, but I am sure we will hear from him again if Rogers wins.

[KCD]

1. Fedor

2. GSP

3. Silva

[KCD]

its anderson silva.
if fedor was so great he would haved signed with the ufc and proved it.
fedor is a BITCH.


The UFC isnt MMA dipshit,

there are more orgs out there other than the UFC which to be honest has better propaganda than the third reich.

[québecwarrior]

Fedor will get ko by Brett Rogers.

you heard it here 1st.
Its so easy to throw crazy prediction like that, because 99.9 percent of the time, you will be wrong and nobody will care, because everybody will forget what you said, but if my miracle you are right, you seem like a genius, but in reality, you are just a dumbass who is talking out of his ass.

[achillesthegreat]

GSP. If he was the same size as Silva or Fedor, I think he would win. Fedor's a wonderful grappler but a terrible striker. Silva is a sensational striker and alright grappler.

GSP did lose to Serra but he never got caught by no fucking FLYING submission! :-)

[smbsmd]

GSP. If he was the same size as Silva or Fedor, I think he would win. Fedor's a wonderful grappler but a terrible striker. Silva is a sensational striker and alright grappler.

GSP did lose to Serra but he never got caught by no fucking FLYING submission! :-)
:-(:-(:-(:deal

[IntentionalButt]

Honestly GSP should at least be an option.

If you really feel that smugly superior and want to point and laugh at those who pick him, make it a public poll.

[chimba]

we'll if everyones the same size then BJ Penn would be the best. If he was bigger he can fend off a takedown from anyone..He made GSP work a whole 5 minutes and GSP wasnt able to take him down. And thats GSP with 20 pounds of pure muscle on him.

I say this because his boxing and BJJ combo is the greatest this sport has ever seen.

Throw in his hard rock chin and good wrestling and youve got the complete package.

[196osh]

I dont think the thing about BJ is nessecaly true.

I mean if you combine Cro Cops strking and Nogs BJJ I dont think that would have beaten Fedor.

I dont think a scaled up version of Penn would beat Fedor.

[ufoalf]

I dont think the thing about BJ is nessecaly true.

I mean if you combine Cro Cops strking and Nogs BJJ I dont think that would have beaten Fedor.

No way. Fedor beat CC standing up and Nog on the ground. I think it's very safe to assume he'd beat the combination of the two.

In all honesty I think out ANYONE in the world right now, A.Silva is the only one who stands a decent chance(10-20%, likelihood) of beating Fedor.

[AmericanSugar]

anderson has evolved into something great. he has fought good competition, see the problem with silva is that his wins seem effortless. he is that much better than everyone else. but he did beat top guys; sakurai, horn, newton, franklin, lutter, griffin. he's alot better than gsp. fedor is number one for now, but silva is coming,

tyron woodley would destroy gsp

[chimba]

I dont think the thing about BJ is nessecaly true.

I mean if you combine Cro Cops strking and Nogs BJJ I dont think that would have beaten Fedor.

I dont think a scaled up version of Penn would beat Fedor.

Posssibly because they have no TD defense. If you scale up BJs legendary take down d..It'll take king kong to take him down. and then it gets interesting, he's got dynamite power in both hands, he'd be a fuckin Ernie Shavers if he were a HW, if he touches you, goodnight!

[196osh]

:lol:

Now thats slight nuthuggery my man. Assuming he is as relitivly good vs heavyweights as he is vs lightweights.

He aint puting lightweights to sleep by touching them. So suggesting a scaled up version would doesn't stack up. Also Fedors TD's from the clinch are better than GSPs imo. He has better hip throws which would be the way to takedown a guy like Penn.

Also :lol: at having a discusion about Fedor vs a HW Penn theoretical or what.

[chimba]

what? If Penn who is known to have heavy hands at LW and assuming that his power grew in proportion to his size, He would be devastating. You have to remember that chins dont get sturdier for HWs, more power , same chin. I'm simply saying that its not out of realm that BJ as a HW hits as hard as Ray Mercer. If anyone gets hit by Mercer and I dont care if its Fedor, its lights out.

Of course these are hypothetical, but imagine a 185 or 205 fighter with BJ's flexibility, thats a unique aspect that he brings

[bulakenyo]

Anderson..

"The Spider"..

Silva!!!

[chimba]

Whats up Bula? Theres just something about Anderson (and Machida) you cant pinpoint it. Its akin to someone labeling boxing as the Sweet science. They practice it. They seem to be ahead of the curve and at the forefront of MMAs evolution. You just cant make these guys look bad anymore, besides the obvious skill gap, they're tactically head and shoulders above everyone else.

With Anderson, his standup is so devastating he toyed with Lee Murrray 5 fuckin years ago! I mean what level is his stand up now God, I guess he showed a glimpse against Griffin.

As for his groundgame, you know hes honing it non stop. When you look at the beffudled face of Leites, who couldnt do shit against Silva on the ground, thats scary

[bulakenyo]

Whats up Bula? Theres just something about Anderson (and Machida) you cant pinpoint it. Its akin to someone labeling boxing as the Sweet science. They practice it. They seem to be ahead of the curve and at the forefront of MMAs evolution. You just cant make these guys look bad anymore, besides the obvious skill gap, they're tactically head and shoulders above everyone else.

With Anderson, his standup is so devastating he toyed with Lee Murrray 5 fuckin years ago! I mean what level is his stand up now God, I guess he showed a glimpse against Griffin.

As for his groundgame, you know hes honing it non stop. When you look at the beffudled face of Leites, who couldnt do shit against Silva on the ground, thats scary

Boss Chimba! Vacation kami North Jersey/NYC since early this month.
U r right, NYC is beautiful.

I think Machida and Silva picked up what's effective in the striking techniques of muay thai/boxing/karate, and what's great about ground skills in wrestling/grappling/jiu jitsu, and the way theyre fighting now, it's what MMA is supposed to be, at its highest level.

The pin point accuracy, the efficiency of correct striking techniques, and keeping great distance/defense of top level striking, and the technical skills of the ground game, the two of them do it the best.

[chimba]

Boss Chimba! Vacation kami North Jersey/NYC since early this month.
U r right, NYC is beautiful.

I think Machida and Silva picked up what's effective in the striking techniques of muay thai/boxing/karate, and what's great about ground skills in wrestling/grappling/jiu jitsu, and the way theyre fighting now, it's what MMA is supposed to be, at its highest level.

The pin point accuracy, the efficiency of correct striking techniques, and keeping great distance/defense of top level striking, and the technical skills of the ground game, the two of them do it the best.

O diba sabi ko sa iyo about NYC. Its one of those places who leaves a mark. And now you can imagine NYC in its Golden years, xmas time, central park and all. You should have pmed me I would have told you the non touristy gems

I agree totally with Silva and MAchida, they're just never out of position. If you watch the Leites fight with Silva on half guard, he just knows what to do and is so calm against an elite JJ guy and snap! hes back on full guard with a body triangle. He's thinking out there. Machida I think may be even more special although not as spectacular just because of his strength and/or an uncanny ability to find an opponents weak lines. I mean he just throws people with ease.

GSP is the closest to approach this level as far as fight strategies and tactics.(thanks in large to Jackson).

[IntentionalButt]

bula WTF. I was in NYC twice this month. :twisted:

[RyDogg123]

Pretty Boy Flooooyyyydddddd Money Maaaaaaaayyyyywweeeaaaaattthhhheeerrrr

[achillesthegreat]

Imagine him vs Griffin, Evans, Tito, Chuck, Rampage, Wandy, etc etc If he actually cut weight and fought at 205lbs he would be.....oh wait, he already is murdering people at heavyweight

To put this into perspective, imagine GSP NOT cutting weight and fighting at Middlewieght, or Penn fighitng at WW :deal

I consider GSP heavily muscled at 170. Silva and Penn are not really that muscled at their weight. I'm not sure if he could comfortably add anymore weight.

Fedor isn't really muscled so he'd lose fat and dominate. He could get to 212 and dry out like the others.

[achillesthegreat]

You mean like Lindland, whose quickness gave him fits early

fits is a big word. i saw a skill battle with fedor pulling off crazy shit en route to victory.

[achillesthegreat]

:-(:-(:-(:deal

I understand people disagree but he is atrocious. Good power though. If his haymakers land you are fucked.

[AmericanSugar]

fits is a big word. i saw a skill battle with fedor pulling off crazy shit en route to victory.

yeah cheating. he grabbed the ropes to avoid a huge take down and dominant position.

[BewareofDawg]

I dont think the thing about BJ is nessecaly true.

I mean if you combine Cro Cops strking and Nogs BJJ I dont think that would have beaten Fedor.

I dont think a scaled up version of Penn would beat Fedor.
I do.

[BewareofDawg]

P4P ability wise, I think Penn wins I think Penn is #1. He just can't be #1 because he is inactive and has taken more chances with competition then the others. but if we judge it on "what each guy is capable in their best hour" then Penn can't be denied the crown.

[BewareofDawg]

I think if Penn was naturally 1-2 inches taller and 15-20lbs heavier, all else being equal, he would beat GSP. Thats just my honest opinion. He wasn't strong enough, or big enough to compete with him.

[yesihavearm2]

I think if Penn was naturally 1-2 inches taller and 15-20lbs heavier, all else being equal, he would beat GSP. Thats just my honest opinion. He wasn't strong enough, or big enough to compete with him.

Of course he would, thats what I've been trying to tell people. P4P...meaning that if the fighters were the same size....BJ Penn is better than GSP. In the 2nd fight GSP used his size and strength advantage to take over.....a good big guy beats a good little guy.

[196osh]

I do.

I dont.

But its close enough so that I dont think there is a real argument. Either way.

One thing Fedor has by miles imo is p4p strength, fedor could lose 15-20lbs and the cut to 205 and he can outmuscle guys who are 250lbs solid.

Either way BJ is a close second on the murky p4p h2h scale.

[achillesthegreat]

I don't think GSP just used his strength. I think he used his superior wrestling which coupled with his athleticism and stamina never saw him caught in a sub.

[codeman99998]

Of course he would, thats what I've been trying to tell people. P4P...meaning that if the fighters were the same size....BJ Penn is better than GSP. In the 2nd fight GSP used his size and strength advantage to take over.....a good big guy beats a good little guy.

Bologna. As if GSP was the biggest strongest welter in the world. Sure, he was stronger than Penn but he held Penn down and passed his guard. Apparently, during training, Randy Couture couldn't keep Penn down but GSP could because he has amazing skill.

[BewareofDawg]

I dont.

But its close enough so that I dont think there is a real argument. Either way.

One thing Fedor has by miles imo is p4p strength, fedor could lose 15-20lbs and the cut to 205 and he can outmuscle guys who are 250lbs solid.

Either way BJ is a close second on the murky p4p h2h scale.
Good points with Fedor being grossly undersized at Heavyweight. One thing that really csn't be denied is taht although Fedor has fought the best available to him at heavyweight, the overall skill level at heavyweight is not as rich as it is as lightweight or welterweight. There are no 220lb guys who can move and who are as well rounded as GSP, or Kos, or Fitch, or Hughes even. Many Heavyweights are great at one thing, and decent at the rest. It is easier for fedor to fight a guy like that then it is to fight a guy who is close to great or great at 2 or more aspects.

[chimba]

Bologna. As if GSP was the biggest strongest welter in the world. Sure, he was stronger than Penn but he held Penn down and passed his guard. Apparently, during training, Randy Couture couldn't keep Penn down but GSP could because he has amazing skill.


This is true and like I said tactically and strategy wise, team jackson got it down. But unlike guys like Jardine, GSP has all the abilities to implement a gameplan.

But you look at BJ, out of shape and miniscule not just in stature but in muscle mass, he freaking held GSP for a full round..and the cage didnt help BJ one bit. Guys like Alves, fitch and Koscheck went down imho easier. You put a body like Alves on BJ with his flexibility, gosh that would be damn scary

[BewareofDawg]

Bologna. As if GSP was the biggest strongest welter in the world. Sure, he was stronger than Penn but he held Penn down and passed his guard. Apparently, during training, Randy Couture couldn't keep Penn down but GSP could because he has amazing skill.
When ever I try and argue that GSP's size and strength had a huge impact on the fight, people get defensive and somehow and for some reason accuse me of saying that Strength and Size was the ONLY reason he won. It is very true and has been proven that skill beats size in jiu jitsu......but when you have a big guy who is only maybe a little bit less skilled then the smaller guy, that size and strength advantage may over come the small gap in skill. GSP is insanely talented, no doubt. But he is also insanely strong and muscled up and big as compared to BJ. You are simply limited in what you can do if it takes ALL OF YOUR strength simply to hold a guys arm in place. You can see it, GSP made it so BJ Penn was consistently strained and tense trying to fight him off for the entire first round. That drains you. And for arguments sake, lets just be honest with eachother. a 10 year old CANNOT arm bar me! I can sit on top of him and hold his shoulders to the ground and he won't be able to move. I don't care how much BJJ knowledge he has, some disparities in strength are just too much to overcome. That is an EXTREME case and a ridiculous comparison, but it does show that there is a limit to when SKILL just isn't enough to overcome STRENGTH.

[196osh]

Good points with Fedor being grossly undersized at Heavyweight. One thing that really csn't be denied is taht although Fedor has fought the best available to him at heavyweight, the overall skill level at heavyweight is not as rich as it is as lightweight or welterweight. There are no 220lb guys who can move and who are as well rounded as GSP, or Kos, or Fitch, or Hughes even. Many Heavyweights are great at one thing, and decent at the rest. It is easier for fedor to fight a guy like that then it is to fight a guy who is close to great or great at 2 or more aspects.

There are 220lb guys who can move like that. I'd guess pretty much most LHWs come in at 215-220.

The thing with Fedor is that it doesnt matter if he was fighting guys that are well rounded. A good example of this is the fact he dominated Nog on the ground and got the better of Cro Cop on his feet.

I think you can safley say he would have beaten a combiantion of the two. But I do get your point. I suppose the thing is that Fedor is dangerous from every position against everybody.

The stat that he is the least hit MMA fighter just goes to show what a monster he is, because he is hardly defensive. He is just so busy dishing it out he doesnt get hit.

Also I think I would like to see BJ having bulked up a bit properlly against GSP, I dont think GSP is going to get sny stronger at WW. But if BJ trained properlly and really worked on his pure strength then he would have a better chance.

I suppose there is the difference between GSP and BJ. I could see BJ giving GSP some issues provided he trained properlly. I could never see GSP troubling Anderson under any circumstances.

[codeman99998]

When ever I try and argue that GSP's size and strength had a huge impact on the fight, people get defensive and somehow and for some reason accuse me of saying that Strength and Size was the ONLY reason he won. It is very true and has been proven that skill beats size in jiu jitsu......but when you have a big guy who is only maybe a little bit less skilled then the smaller guy, that size and strength advantage may over come the small gap in skill. GSP is insanely talented, no doubt. But he is also insanely strong and muscled up and big as compared to BJ. You are simply limited in what you can do if it takes ALL OF YOUR strength simply to hold a guys arm in place. You can see it, GSP made it so BJ Penn was consistently strained and tense trying to fight him off for the entire first round. That drains you. And for arguments sake, lets just be honest with eachother. a 10 year old CANNOT arm bar me! I can sit on top of him and hold his shoulders to the ground and he won't be able to move. I don't care how much BJJ knowledge he has, some disparities in strength are just too much to overcome. That is an EXTREME case and a ridiculous comparison, but it does show that there is a limit to when SKILL just isn't enough to overcome STRENGTH.

Even if it were true that GSPs size and strength were the main factors contributing to his win, pound for pound GSP is stronger than BJ anyways. It isn't like BJ is some fitness freak at lightweight that is able to beat guys using superior strength and conditioning. If BJ was as athletic as a guy like sean sherk and people said it was size that made the difference against GSP I could accept it more. If BJ were a natural welterweight, he still wouldn't be as strong or as well conditioned as GSP is. There are PLENTY of natural welters who are nowhere near as athletic as GSP. BJ doesn't have the work ethic to be as in shape as GSP is, and if he did and was still so much smaller and was still being overpowered than that would be one thing. GSP is a better fighter in part because he has a better training mindset. That counts and coulda woulda shoulda doesnt.

[VX.Nefarious]

Norris

[BewareofDawg]

Even if it were true that GSPs size and strength were the main factors contributing to his win, pound for pound GSP is stronger than BJ anyways. It isn't like BJ is some fitness freak at lightweight that is able to beat guys using superior strength and conditioning. If BJ was as athletic as a guy like sean sherk and people said it was size that made the difference against GSP I could accept it more. If BJ were a natural welterweight, he still wouldn't be as strong or as well conditioned as GSP is. There are PLENTY of natural welters who are nowhere near as athletic as GSP. BJ doesn't have the work ethic to be as in shape as GSP is, and if he did and was still so much smaller and was still being overpowered than that would be one thing. GSP is a better fighter in part because he has a better training mindset. That counts and coulda woulda shoulda doesnt.
BJ Penn is more athletic then Sean Sherk

[BewareofDawg]

BJ Penn is more athletic then Sean Sherk
By far :deal

[BewareofDawg]

...

[codeman99998]

...

Yeah, BJ has never come in out of shape or gassed later on in fights:patsch. Sure, he is more flexible and is a great natural athlete but there is little reason to think he would magically be as strong or as athletic as GSP if he were naturally a bit bigger.

[cloud_cyc]

When ever I try and argue that GSP's size and strength had a huge impact on the fight, people get defensive and somehow and for some reason accuse me of saying that Strength and Size was the ONLY reason he won. It is very true and has been proven that skill beats size in jiu jitsu......but when you have a big guy who is only maybe a little bit less skilled then the smaller guy, that size and strength advantage may over come the small gap in skill. GSP is insanely talented, no doubt. But he is also insanely strong and muscled up and big as compared to BJ. You are simply limited in what you can do if it takes ALL OF YOUR strength simply to hold a guys arm in place. You can see it, GSP made it so BJ Penn was consistently strained and tense trying to fight him off for the entire first round. That drains you. And for arguments sake, lets just be honest with eachother. a 10 year old CANNOT arm bar me! I can sit on top of him and hold his shoulders to the ground and he won't be able to move. I don't care how much BJJ knowledge he has, some disparities in strength are just too much to overcome. That is an EXTREME case and a ridiculous comparison, but it does show that there is a limit to when SKILL just isn't enough to overcome STRENGTH.

valid point. but IMO even if BJ is the same size with GSP, it wouldnt change the outcome. skill/talent wise they are almost at the same level ( people can argue on who's better ). but what separates GSP from BJ is his discipline, BJ tends to rely on his skills and natural instict and is not inclined on developing his body or push his body to the limit. so same size or not, at any given night, GSP will be stronger and more athletic that BJ.

and it sounds like you discredit his win a little by saying that "skill just isn't enough to overcome strength". you should also credit his and his team's fight plan to engage BJ on a stand up/boxing on the first round because like he said in the interview, they needed BJ to box a lot on the first few minutes so his shoulder would stiffen on the latter part of the fight so that he wont be flexible enough when he starts to go for a ground fight (in which BJ is very good). all in all, he won because he is more disciplined, had good fighting plan, he's bigger/ stronger

[cloud_cyc]

btw fedor is #1 p4p no doubt

[bulakenyo]

O diba sabi ko sa iyo about NYC. Its one of those places who leaves a mark. And now you can imagine NYC in its Golden years, xmas time, central park and all. You should have pmed me I would have told you the non touristy gems

I agree totally with Silva and MAchida, they're just never out of position. If you watch the Leites fight with Silva on half guard, he just knows what to do and is so calm against an elite JJ guy and snap! hes back on full guard with a body triangle. He's thinking out there. Machida I think may be even more special although not as spectacular just because of his strength and/or an uncanny ability to find an opponents weak lines. I mean he just throws people with ease.

GSP is the closest to approach this level as far as fight strategies and tactics.(thanks in large to Jackson).

:good

bula WTF. I was in NYC twice this month. :twisted:


:cool:

I hope you liked your stay also. We'll be going home this weekend.

[BewareofDawg]

valid point. but IMO even if BJ is the same size with GSP, it wouldnt change the outcome. skill/talent wise they are almost at the same level ( people can argue on who's better ). but what separates GSP from BJ is his discipline, BJ tends to rely on his skills and natural instict and is not inclined on developing his body or push his body to the limit. so same size or not, at any given night, GSP will be stronger and more athletic that BJ.

and it sounds like you discredit his win a little by saying that "skill just isn't enough to overcome strength". you should also credit his and his team's fight plan to engage BJ on a stand up/boxing on the first round because like he said in the interview, they needed BJ to box a lot on the first few minutes so his shoulder would stiffen on the latter part of the fight so that he wont be flexible enough when he starts to go for a ground fight (in which BJ is very good). all in all, he won because he is more disciplined, had good fighting plan, he's bigger/ stronger
Fair point and I realize that "my argument" may be more true for the first fight. Because the second fight we saw a MUCH improved and more prepared GSP. great points about the gameplan and his dedication. But ther has to be some middle ground. Differences in skill level is debatable, but the difference in size between the two guys IS NOT and to say that it had NOTHING to do with the outcome is very hard to support.

[jordan1]

GSP!:hey

[Weber]

Posssibly because they have no TD defense. If you scale up BJs legendary take down d..It'll take king kong to take him down. and then it gets interesting, he's got dynamite power in both hands, he'd be a fuckin Ernie Shavers if he were a HW, if he touches you, goodnight!

Complete bullshit. Have you even seen these guys fight?

Nog "doesn't have a takedown defense" because he's thought to be the best HW grappler of all time. He wants it to go to the ground, always.

Crocop had perhaps the greatest takedown defense of any stand-up HW there ever was, and this was routinely mentioned by commentators as one of the reasons for his success. The only guy to ever submit him was Nog. He has beaten PLENTY of wrestlers, most of whom were unable to take it to the ground for even a moment.

Also, you are massively underestimating Fedor's wrestling skills. He's the GOAT of sambo as well for christ's sake, a sport that has its focus almost exclusively on throws and submissions. If anyone can take him down, it's Fedor.