Who has the style to upset a prime Ali

[Bummy Davis]

Out of the former and
subsequent Champions and top challengers, Who do you give a good chance to upset Ali.

Who do you give a good chance because of styles to beat a prime Ali

I know some will say no one but lets be realistic...everyone has a style they have trouble with, even the best. Who would be Ali's kryptonite from Sullivan to the Klitschko's and in between.

pick one or pick 20....fighters that COULD possibly beat him.

[rekcutnevets]

Holmes may pose the same type of threat that Forrest did to Mosley, or Tarver did to Jones. Interestingly, Lewis is does not remind me of Holmes when watching him fight, but he may pose a similar problem.

I rank Ali #1 at heavyweight all time, and #1 head to head. These are the two I think would be his biggest threats, and I favor Holmes more than Lewis.

[Shake]

The difference between the style of Ali and Mosley is so vast I can't respect the comparison. Young or old, ali was most susceptible to the left hook. I think to beat him you need to be fast on your feet, or he just paints your face for six rounds on his toes.

It's probably still a prime Frazier.

[janitor]

A lot of fighters "could" do it on a given day, with favourable circumstances, and not all of them are great.

Could and would are of course different concepts.

[rekcutnevets]

Posted by Shake
The difference between the style of Ali and Mosley is so vast I can't respect the comparison. Young or old, ali was most susceptible to the left hook. I think to beat him you need to be fast on your feet, or he just paints your face for six rounds on his toes.

I see what you are saying, and I neglected to mention the relevance in my post.

A lot of Ali's style was based on his athleticism, and is not a style that is duplicated. Shane Mosley is actually a brawler in a boxer's body, and does fight very different from Ali. The only reason I mention Mosley is because he often wins by out athleting his opponent.

I don't think that Jones fights like Ali either, but he too wins a lot with athleticism.

I think that Holmes and Lewis can stand at a distant range and try to patiently win exchanges starting with a battle of the jab. I have not seen Ali in the ring with anyone his size and larger with a chance of matching jabs with him.

[Shake]

I see what you are saying, and I neglected to mention the relevance in my post.

A lot of Ali's style was based on his athleticism, and is not a style that is duplicated. Shane Mosley is actually a brawler in a boxer's body, and does fight very different from Ali. The only reason I mention Mosley is because he often wins by out athleting his opponent.

I don't think that Jones fights like Ali either, but he too wins a lot with athleticism.

I think that Holmes and Lewis can stand at a distant range and try to patiently win exchanges starting with a battle of the jab. I have not seen Ali in the ring with anyone his size and larger with a chance of matching jabs with him.

Good post. I see your point now. I agree, although I think he would take advantage of the fact both are not as fast on their feet, in and out, and turning them.

Man, what I wouldn't give for Lewis-Ali, just to see how Ali overcame him.

[sugarsean]

A peak "Smokin" Joe Fraizer

[rekcutnevets]

Posted by Shake
I agree, although I think he would take advantage of the fact both are not as fast on their feet, in and out, and turning them.That's possible, especially with Lewis. Lewis was larger, and a good step slower afoot.

Holmes is an interesting match. I really think Ali's will to win may be what would get him past Holmes. I don't think that Calzaghe vs Kessler in terms of styles, but remember when Kessler started to land some solid shots on Calzaghe? Calzaghe dug in and imposed his will on Kessler. I think something like this would happen if a young Ali faced a prime Holmes.

Still, the thread is asking for the best chance to defeat Ali. I think that Frazier is a good foil for the Ali that is less reliant on his legs, but has lesser success with the one that does.

[OBCboxer]

Prime Frazier. He's the only Heavyweight in history I pick over a prime Ali. He brings it all, the fast nonstop pressure, the left hook, the power to hurt him and the style.

[Hydraulix]

Joe Louis, and for several reasons. He wrote an article called "How I would have clobbered Clay." Here it is.

The kid has speed and there’s no one around to outbox him, and the opponent who tries is in his grave. Especially in the middle if the ring. I’d see to it that Clay didn’t stay in ring center. No. He’d be hit into those ropes as near a corner as I could get him. If he stayed on the ropes he would get hurt. Sooner or later he’d try to bounce off, when he did he would get hurt more. I’d press him, cut down his speed, and bang him around the ribs. I’d punish the body. “Kill the body and the head will die”, Chappie use to tell me. It figures. Sooner or later he’d forget about that face of his and he would start dropping that left hand like he did against Mildenberger and Chuvalo. Those fellows got their openings by accident, and fouled it up. I would work for it and wouldn’t reckon to miss when it arrived. Cassius Clay is a nice boy and a smart fighter. But I am sure Joe Louis would have licked him

This is the same strategy that Joe Frazier used to beat Ali. Work the body early to slow him down for the later rounds, and when he drops his hands or u catch him against the ropes, go for the knockout. However, Ali was good at shaking off one good punch, but he probably wouldn't be able to take combinations. Joe Louis threw fast, accuarate and powerful combinations.

One more thing; Ali had trouble with Ken Norton in three fights because of one thing; the left jab. Ali couldn't block a jab. If Norton's jab destroyed Ali's rhythm, can you imagine how the Joe Louis jab would have worked? Joe's jab was fast and deadly like a cobra. 15 rounds is a long time, and Joe Louis, with his fast hand speed and body punching, would hurt Ali late in the fight.

Aside from Joe Louis, I'd give Marciano a slight chance to beat Ali as well. Rocky punched harder than Frazier, and Ali has said himself numerous times that Rocky would have been hard to beat. He said "Rocky was better than Joe Frazier, and you saw what Joe Frazier did to me..."

And during the filming of the Superfight, he said "Rocky was a lot harder to hit with a jab than he looked. I can't imagine fighting him in his prime." If an old, 45 year-old Marciano was able to slip Ali's jab and punish him, imagine what the prime Marciano would have done.

[Duodenum]

Zora Folley actually boxed a smart match against Ali through the first three rounds. Holmes, with Futch in his corner, could have employed some of the Folley template along with Eddie's particular understanding of Muhammad's strengths and weaknesses to create a very difficult challenge for the GOAT to overcome.

Larry is a very different animal from Zora, being larger, stronger, and considerably tougher. Folley never recovered from that first knockdown, a punch Holmes would have shrugged off if Muhammad was even able to connect with it. Nor would the back of Larry's head have been available for Ali to pull down on in the clinches as Foreman's was. (Archie Moore identified this as the key tactic in Muhammad's knockout of Big George.)

[Fighting Weight]

I read somewhere that Ali comforted Folleys child after that fight, I think he said something like "no reason to get upset, your dad got his chance too late" or something like that.

I still think prime Frazier and Tyson are the 2 fighters I'd pick to give prime Ali most problems. I really don't think the best Ali would have had too much trouble against Lewis or Holmes. Marciano would have been a tougher fight than Lewis or Holmes but I still think Ali would have beaten him with the jab..he'd have got hurt in the process though.

[Longhhorn71]

the usual suspects:
Tyson
Louis
Holmes
Norton
Marciano

Others:
Tunney
Charles
Walcott

[Unforgiven]

Dempsey, Frazier, Marciano
Louis, Holmes, Johnson, Tunney

A prime Ezzard Charles

etc.

[Ezzard]

Well when we say 'upset' I guess we mean someone who you wouldn't put in the elite bracket at HW.

I'd go Walcott. Great left hook (very important to beat Ali) and a good defence.

[JohnThomas1]

Zora Folley actually boxed a smart match against Ali through the first three rounds. Holmes, with Futch in his corner, could have employed some of the Folley template along with Eddie's particular understanding of Muhammad's strengths and weaknesses to create a very difficult challenge for the GOAT to overcome.

Larry is a very different animal from Zora, being larger, stronger, and considerably tougher. Folley never recovered from that first knockdown, a punch Holmes would have shrugged off if Muhammad was even able to connect with it. Nor would the back of Larry's head have been available for Ali to pull down on in the clinches as Foreman's was. (Archie Moore identified this as the key tactic in Muhammad's knockout of Big George.)

The trouble i have with picking out one single fight (you do it a bit, in SRR vs Hearns too) and building a large base from it is that it can be done with anyone.

Now in all seriousness how inspired and on fire do you think Ali would have been against Folley? Folley was hardly someone to get "up" for when talking Ali and he had some very serious matters going on. Remember too, he'd beaten Terrell over 15 just the month before :blood - incredibly sharp in that one tho. He had some hate happening there and Terrell was higher rated.

We could look at Holmes - Snipes and summise in a bubble that if Snipes could have him hurt that bad what might a serious peak Ali do. If he struggled to box a Mike Weaver what would Ali do, etc.

I actually agree Holmes is a great call, tho i'd still take Ali via decision.

I take the pre exile Ali over anyone, but think Frazier would be very very dangerous. Joe Louis too, but i think Ali would outspeed him. I won't dredge up Conn and Walcott tho :lol:

So if i had to pick someone with my life on the line it'd be Frazier, followed by Holmes.

[fists of fury]

I don't know if anyone really has the right style...maybe the right set of attributes.
I've said it an the past, but for me Larry had the right kind of skillset to give Ali fits, and Holmes was also a smart fighter with plenty of savvy.

Frazier's style meshed beautifully with Ali's, but whether that is the right style to beat him is not such an easy question to answer.

[mcvey]

I see what you are saying, and I neglected to mention the relevance in my post.

A lot of Ali's style was based on his athleticism, and is not a style that is duplicated. Shane Mosley is actually a brawler in a boxer's body, and does fight very different from Ali. The only reason I mention Mosley is because he often wins by out athleting his opponent.

I don't think that Jones fights like Ali either, but he too wins a lot with athleticism.

I think that Holmes and Lewis can stand at a distant range and try to patiently win exchanges starting with a battle of the jab. I have not seen Ali in the ring with anyone his size and larger with a chance of matching jabs with him.

Do you not think Terrell fills the bill ? He is 6 foot 6in and had a fine jab , he was outclassed.

[mcvey]

Out of the former and
subsequent Champions and top challengers, Who do you give a good chance to upset Ali.

Who do you give a good chance because of styles to beat a prime Ali

I know some will say no one but lets be realistic...everyone has a style they have trouble with, even the best. Who would be Ali's kryptonite from Sullivan to the Klitschko's and in between.

pick one or pick 20....fighters that COULD possibly beat him.

Holmes and Lewis have potentially the most chance,imo.With Holmes ,the better option imo.
I think Walcott could make things difficult for awhile.
Dempsey for the first 6 rds,possibly Tyson too.

Holmes because of his jab and size ,plus he was quick.
Lewis had a good jab ,a little overated but good ,big man solid fundamentals, but lacked the speed to beat Ali in the crunch imo.

Walcott's herky jerky side to side cake walk ,shoulder feints and boxing ability would throw Ali's timing off imo,but eventually Ali would begin to land consistantly enough to take a dec.
Dempsey's hand and foot speed ,plus his explosive power would make him very dangerous in the early rounds,then Ali's size and quick jab would begin to dominate ,as his fast feet took him away from the Mauler's attacks.
Tyson's hand speed and his deftness at closing the distance make him a perilous nights work for anyone,I think Ali would smother him up close and frustrate him enough to win with a long range attack ,Tyson would start to run down after the middle part of the fight.

[Ezzard]

Ali always had trouble with left hooks.

I always start this debate by looking at Dempsey, Frazier, Tyson, Walcott, Holyfield and Charles.

Whenever Ali wound up the right uppercut he'd get nailed by a left hook.

Norton threw a left hook instead of a jab.

Ali is a hard man to beat so you need to look at what few weaknesses he had.

[Stevie G]

The two types that a prime Ali would have the most problem with are jabbers and pressure fighters. In the former category larry Holmes is the best example. Whether he would have actually beaten a prime Ali,imo,is doubtful. I have written before that,I believe the Ali of 1972-74,in shape and focused,would have the edge on a prime Holmes. So if Larry could n't beat a 70's best Ali,then he would n't beat an overall best Ali ! After all,Larry found jabbers a problem too. He found Ken Norton tough. Same with Carl Williams,and Ali's jab would have bothered him too. Pressurising fighters such as Joe Frazier and Rocky Marciano are the best example of that category. Think too,the reason out of all his opponents,Muhammad found Norton the biggest enigma. He was pressure fighter with a good jab.

[he grant]

The 1980 Holmes, the 1939 Louis and the Riddick Bowe of Holyfield 1 would be very tought fights. A prime Dempsey as well.

[janitor]

I am going to start with the assumption that I have nothing to loose by throwing these fighters at Ali and neither do they. With that in mind it can be done the following ways:

Pressure fighter
Obviously Joe Frazier did beat Muhamad Ali. Based on the Chuvalo fight I would not rule out the possibility that he would always have done so.

Based on the Frazier fights and the Chuvalo fight I would suggest that Rocky Marciano would have a good chance and some other pressure fighters (Marvin Hart, Tommy Farr, David Tua and others) would at least have been able to make it an interesting fight.

Counterpuncher
Ken Norton essentialy beat Ali by clever use of counterpunching and Ali never really did find a way to foil it. I do not imagine for one minute that Norton is the only fighter in history who could have employed this strategy sucesfully.

While other fighters could have beaten ali using this method it is hard to say who they are and some of the results might be surprizing. The obvious suspects would include Jack Johnson, Joe Louis, Larry Holmes and Lennox Lewis.

Smaller defensive fighter
While Jimmy Young did not beat Ali he did prove that he did not fight a smart fight against a smaller defensive fighter who worked on the back foot. It would be interesting to say the least to see how he might have fared against Gene Tunney, Tommy Loughran, Maxie Rosenbloom, Bob Pastor, Archie Moore and others. I suggest that if Ali had fought in an era where a lot of these little sheisters were around it is likley that he would have droped a decision to one of them somwhere allong the line.

Finisher
This is probably the lest likley strategy to work. Although Ali was in the ring with a lot of big punchers such as Foreman and Shavers none of them were really finishers. It cannot be ruled out that sombody like Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis or Mike Tyson could have put him down for the count.

Other ruleset
The final option is simply to match him under a ruleset to which he is not suited. Sombody like Sullivan or Jeffries might have taken him under the ruleset of their own era.

[lolb]

I think to beat Prime Ali you need to put on constant pressure and be able to cut of the ring (easier said than done). The obvious fighters that spring to mind are Frazier and Tyson. They don't waste many punches ( a la Foreman) and are both very accurate especially the left hook. I can understand why people say Holmes and Lewis because of the jab but I just feel you need to get him rattled and don't alow him to much time to think.

That said if your talking about the Ali that beat Cleveland Williams. Then I don't think he can be beat.

[Flea Man]

Larry Holmes. Prime for Prime would beat Ali IMO.

[JohnThomas1]

Counterpuncher
Ken Norton essentialy beat Ali by clever use of counterpunching and Ali never really did find a way to foil it. I do not imagine for one minute that Norton is the only fighter in history who could have employed this strategy sucesfully.

Smaller defensive fighter
While Jimmy Young did not beat Ali he did prove that he did not fight a smart fight against a smaller defensive fighter who worked on the back foot. It would be interesting to say the least to see how he might have fared against Gene Tunney, Tommy Loughran, Maxie Rosenbloom, Bob Pastor, Archie Moore and others. I suggest that if Ali had fought in an era where a lot of these little sheisters were around it is likley that he would have droped a decision to one of them somwhere allong the line.


These two fought an Ali that was far far different from the one i see as peak around exile.IMO the younger faster and more nimble Ali would have gone quite ok vs these two. Frazier would have been much tougher i think.

[teeto]

I always said the best bet in my opinion was Marciano, the only thing that puts me off is the size.

[McGrain]

Frazier's speed of pressure means he's maybe the only guy to enjoy a literal stylistic advantage over Ali.

[Quick Cash]

I always said the best bet in my opinion was Marciano, the only thing that puts me off is the size.

I don't know about that. While I think Marciano the better overall fighter, Frazier's more scientific pressure would be absolutely instrumental here in beating Ali. He's the single best bet we have. I'd pick him.

Holmes would be another who'd possibly pose some problems, and I've been swayed in the past to pick him. However, the argument of styles swings both ways. In a tight contest I'm more inclined to pick Ali who'd be backing up, making Larry Holmes lead, etc.

[McGrain]

I don't understand the Holmes picks. Since when is a very fast box-mover favourite over a faster unorthodox box-slickster? The things Holmes does best seem to be eclipsed by what Ali has.

[Ezzard]

I don't understand the Holmes picks. Since when is a very fast box-mover favourite over a faster unorthodox box-slickster? The things Holmes does best seem to be eclipsed by what Ali has.

I think Holmes having been a sparring partner knew Ali's game better than anyone and that coupled with the jab would give him a great chance.

[Ezzard]

As much as I'd love to believe otherwise there's no way I can see Rocky getting to Ali.

[PetethePrince]

Frazier

Those who follow would be Marciano, Tyson, and Louis as the next best options to in my book.

[Bill Butcher]

Mike Tyson in his prime would give prime Ali the toughest fight I think, I also think Ali would have difficulties with Holmes stylewise.

Ultimately, id fancy prime Ali to decision both men, especially over 15 rds but those 2 would likely be his toughest fights.

[fists of fury]

I don't understand the Holmes picks. Since when is a very fast box-mover favourite over a faster unorthodox box-slickster? The things Holmes does best seem to be eclipsed by what Ali has.

My choice of Holmes requires a bit of a leap of faith...I believe Larry would be smart enough to realise that chasing Ali around the ring is fruitless.

So in a nutshell I'd say Holmes would have the intelligence and discipline to take up a spot in centre ring make Ali lead more than he'd like.

[Bummy Davis]

I am going to start with the assumption that I have nothing to loose by throwing these fighters at Ali and neither do they. With that in mind it can be done the following ways:

Pressure fighter
Obviously Joe Frazier did beat Muhamad Ali. Based on the Chuvalo fight I would not rule out the possibility that he would always have done so.

Based on the Frazier fights and the Chuvalo fight I would suggest that Rocky Marciano would have a good chance and some other pressure fighters (Marvin Hart, Tommy Farr, David Tua and others) would at least have been able to make it an interesting fight.

Counterpuncher
Ken Norton essentialy beat Ali by clever use of counterpunching and Ali never really did find a way to foil it. I do not imagine for one minute that Norton is the only fighter in history who could have employed this strategy sucesfully.

While other fighters could have beaten ali using this method it is hard to say who they are and some of the results might be surprizing. The obvious suspects would include Jack Johnson, Joe Louis, Larry Holmes and Lennox Lewis.

Smaller defensive fighter
While Jimmy Young did not beat Ali he did prove that he did not fight a smart fight against a smaller defensive fighter who worked on the back foot. It would be interesting to say the least to see how he might have fared against Gene Tunney, Tommy Loughran, Maxie Rosenbloom, Bob Pastor, Archie Moore and others. I suggest that if Ali had fought in an era where a lot of these little sheisters were around it is likley that he would have droped a decision to one of them somwhere allong the line.

Finisher
This is probably the lest likley strategy to work. Although Ali was in the ring with a lot of big punchers such as Foreman and Shavers none of them were really finishers. It cannot be ruled out that sombody like Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis or Mike Tyson could have put him down for the count.

Other ruleset
The final option is simply to match him under a ruleset to which he is not suited. Sombody like Sullivan or Jeffries might have taken him under the ruleset of their own era.


Good Post:good

[Stevie G]

Mike Tyson in his prime would give prime Ali the toughest fight I think, I also think Ali would have difficulties with Holmes stylewise.

Ultimately, id fancy prime Ali to decision both men, especially over 15 rds but those 2 would likely be his toughest fights.
I can't see Tyson having the mental toughness to beat Ali. Unless we're talking the post 1975 version of Muhammad.

[Stevie G]

My choice of Holmes requires a bit of a leap of faith...I believe Larry would be smart enough to realise that chasing Ali around the ring is fruitless.

So in a nutshell I'd say Holmes would have the intelligence and discipline to take up a spot in centre ring make Ali lead more than he'd like.
I respect your view,and it's quite feasible. The thing is,Muhammad would be doing his best to make Holmes lead off too.

[Bill Butcher]

Larry Holmes. Prime for Prime would beat Ali IMO.

Cant see it myself... but I think he would always be a tough obstacle for prime Ali with his overall skills & jab... I think the difference would be the speed of hand & foot of course & Ali`s greater ability to throw combinations & finish strong in the championship rds.

[Bill Butcher]

I can't see Tyson having the mental toughness to beat Ali. Unless we're talking the post 1975 version of Muhammad.

This is where I have disagreed with many posters here on ESB.... I actually dont think Tyson had any weak mindedness in the 80s, I think that shit built up on him due to things that happened in his life over time, I dont doubt for a minute that a prime Tyson would be there 100% & focused vs any fighter of the past, I dont think he`d get discouraged as we saw post jail.

Ps. My money would be on peak Ali tho but Mike presents huge problems for anyone, including Ali.

:good

[Bokaj]

Of those Ali didn't fight I think Marciano would have the biggest stylistical advantage. A very tough fight for Ali.

Personally, I don't think Holmes would be quite as difficult as many believe. Forget about the battle of the jabs, Ali had GREAT right hand counters. Think that would be Holmes' undoing.

[PowerPuncher]

Fighters who have the speed/movement/left hand to make Ali pay for carrying his right low and leaning back away from punches.

1. Holmes/Tyson would be the best styles, both very fast athletically near Ali's equal, both excellent left hands and either the jab/timing or pressure to upset Ali
2. Lennox's overall quality and size is bound to cause problems
3. Holys skill, speed of foot and pressure would cause allot of problems too
4. Frazier has a decent chance, Ali wasnt far gone in the first fight but he wasnt prime either or fighting the smartest fight
5. Wlad/Vitali, I wouldnt pick them to win but the rangyness of the left jab will be a big problem for ALi

Champs with little chance

1. Louis - too stationary and too ponderous for someone as fast as Ali
2. Dempsey - open defense, small, relatively weak and punches that were telegraphed
3. Marciano - too slow and too small
4. Jeffries - inadequete skill set, basic
5. Johnson - low workrate and a bit primitive/basic

[frankenfrank]

if you want to separate fighter from his style ask :
what is the style to upset a prime ali.
because FMJ with vitali's style (or even hisself , which may be better) , can't beat a prime ali , and vitali with his style would have definitely beat a prime ali.

[frankenfrank]

5. Wlad/Vitali, I wouldnt pick them to win but the rangyness of the left jab will be a big problem for ALi

why would ye ? this is ESB's classic forum FFS .:yep

[mightyd40]

tyson/lewis

[la-califa]

A prime Jack Dempsey would bring an incredible amount of pressure & he had a terrific left hook. He would be constantly on Ali & Ali would be hard pressed to keep him off for too long. Althouth a battle of two greats might not be considered too much of an upset.

[teeto]

I don't know about that. While I think Marciano the better overall fighter, Frazier's more scientific pressure would be absolutely instrumental here in beating Ali. He's the single best bet we have. I'd pick him.

Holmes would be another who'd possibly pose some problems, and I've been swayed in the past to pick him. However, the argument of styles swings both ways. In a tight contest I'm more inclined to pick Ali who'd be backing up, making Larry Holmes lead, etc.
You make a good point but i do still like Marciano, but like i said about the size so it's more a hypothetical 'pound for pound' sense which maybe rules him out for me anyway. I have pondered this one many a time and i do still come back to Rocky personally. Although i do reconsider when i think the money punch was usually a left hook for Muhammad, whereas Marciano's right was more murderous for him, slightly.

[Duodenum]

I don't understand the Holmes picks. Since when is a very fast box-mover favourite over a faster unorthodox box-slickster? The things Holmes does best seem to be eclipsed by what Ali has.Holmes was taken to the title by Ritchie Giachetti, obviously a fine trainer, but not somebody ideally suited to strategizing for a peak Ali. But Larry then went and hired Eddie Futch, somebody who clearly understood how to box Muhammad better than any opposing trainer (including Ali's own Angelo Dundee, who worked against Muhammad with Jimmy Ellis). Holmes had the physical attributes and smarts necessary to carry out Futch's instructions.

Let me be clear here. The Ali of Cleveland Williams may have been the closest thing to an invincible heavyweight we've ever seen, and I wouldn't bet money on anybody to beat that hyperactive version of the GOAT. But with Futch in his corner, Larry might have done more than any other fantasy opponent to get Muhammad off his toes and harrass him effectively with his jab. Eddie also taught Holmes how to stop telegraphing his right, and Folley did manage to score with successive right leads in their match.

Futch was the one guy Ali least wanted to see in the opposing corner, and Larry had him for his legacy match with Cooney. (The last champion mentored by Futch was Bowe, something which ought to be taken into account when contemplating Ali-Bowe as well.)

[Duodenum]

The trouble i have with picking out one single fight (you do it a bit, in SRR vs Hearns too) and building a large base from it is that it can be done with anyone.A completely fair observation JT, and I've been building large bases from tenuously narrow foundations ever since I joined ESB (as you know all too well). But it's what I have to work with, and extrapolating like this always carries substantial risks. (With SRR vs Hearns, I probably wouldn't have done that using the Shields bout alone, but had the Weston straw to grasp at.)Now in all seriousness how inspired and on fire do you think Ali would have been against Folley? Folley was hardly someone to get "up" for when talking Ali and he had some very serious matters going on. Remember too, he'd beaten Terrell over 15 just the month before :blood - incredibly sharp in that one tho. He had some hate happening there and Terrell was higher rated.Ali was tremendous against Terrell, but Ernie was also dreadful in that one, compared to how he appeared later that year with Spencer. The Ali of the Williams fight would have been interesting to see against Folley, a small and aging but skilled and intelligent boxer who didn't leave himself wide open to the sort of dazzling attack Muhammad took apart the Big Cat with. I'm surmising that Ali-Folley was always going to be something of a chess match. Patterson was never going to seriously challenge him, but it might have been revealing to see how Floyd would have done if his back wasn't screwed up, as Muhammad said he had the best skills of any challenger he defended against.We could look at Holmes - Snipes and surmise in a bubble that if Snipes could have him hurt that bad what might a serious peak Ali do. If he struggled to box a Mike Weaver what would Ali do, etc.Right. I tend to focus on Folley because he was trying to win, not merely survive as Terrell did through most of their match, had some early success against a fast starter for his style of boxing, and because he did get Muhammad off his toes and slowed down a bit in exercising some caution. Ali himself said to Cosell after Spinks II that he himself considered Williams and then Folley to be his two peaks. (To me, it's interesting that he didn't include Terrell in that mix.)

In 1967, Ali didn't seem too excited about the crop of contenders left after Folley, and spoke with no great inspiration about his next scheduled defense in Tokyo against Bonavena. Nobody was going to properly motivate him before Frazier was ready. (If Joe's bad eye forced him into a premature retirement as it did Leotis Martin, I don't think Ali would have ever returned from exile.)
I actually agree Holmes is a great call, tho i'd still take Ali via decision.So would I. Speed kills, and Fleischer said he was the fastest.I take the pre exile Ali over anyone, but think Frazier would be very very dangerous. Joe Louis too, but i think Ali would outspeed him. I won't dredge up Conn and Walcott tho :lol:

So if i had to pick someone with my life on the line it'd be Frazier, followed by Holmes.Ali-Frazier in 1968 or 1969 would have been a fast paced and hectic 15 rounds, but Ali would have had too much athleticism to succumb at that stage.

Frazier is a perfectly rational choice, considering how Ali didn't mind giving away bodyshots.

[red cobra]

Marciano,Frazier, Holmes and Lewis.

[Shake]

I don't understand the Holmes picks. Since when is a very fast box-mover favourite over a faster unorthodox box-slickster? The things Holmes does best seem to be eclipsed by what Ali has.

Oh, good. So I'm not the only one that thinks that. I Ali lands on Holmes much easier than vice versa by virtue of his legs, speed and reflexes. I also think Ali would adjust well to the Holmes jab after maybe the first four rounds and distances himself slightly better (presuming you 'forget' the fact they sparred together to null any advantage)

I like Marciano's style, but young Ali was sick good at cutting people. I remember Henry Cooper saying 'Ali's jab was a long jab, he stretched it outward, and it dragged your flesh.' (instead of a dull impact, which lead to cuts)

Tyson has the fast pressure down pat, but I feel Ali can win a war. I feel he has such an edge mentally here -- he's unlikely to be knocked out early, and will be there for the later rounds. I see Mike's eyes closing around the 8th. I don't know if Mike has that special toughness to deal with it and win -- he can take punishment, but can he do more than absorb and tip the scales of power? I'm doubtful.

Weird ass shout that doesn't belong here, but I'd love to see Witherspoon in there with Ali. He could pull a Norton.

[Duodenum]

Weird ass shout that doesn't belong here, but I'd love to see Witherspoon in there with Ali. He could pull a Norton.No, it's not all that weird, provided Tim is in shape, properly motivated, and doesn't get stupid like he did with Holmes (claiming that he thought he had Larry beat with a couple rounds to go). He wasn't the kind of opponent Ali was likely to stop.

[mcvey]

Holmes was taken to the title by Ritchie Giachetti, obviously a fine trainer, but not somebody ideally suited to strategizing for a peak Ali. But Larry then went and hired Eddie Futch, somebody who clearly understood how to box Muhammad better than any opposing trainer (including Ali's own Angelo Dundee, who worked against Muhammad with Jimmy Ellis). Holmes had the physical attributes and smarts necessary to carry out Futch's instructions.

Let me be clear here. The Ali of Cleveland Williams may have been the closest thing to an invincible heavyweight we've ever seen, and I wouldn't bet money on anybody to beat that hyperactive version of the GOAT. But with Futch in his corner, Larry might have done more than any other fantasy opponent to get Muhammad off his toes and harrass him effectively with his jab. Eddie also taught Holmes how to stop telegraphing his right, and Folley did manage to score with successive right leads in their match.

Futch was the one guy Ali least wanted to see in the opposing corner, and Larry had him for his legacy match with Cooney. (The last champion mentored by Futch was Bowe, something which ought to be taken into account when contemplating Ali-Bowe as well.)
Prime for prime Futch picked Holmes over Ali,maybe he was biased but he was a very astute trainer.
I think Folley won those early rounds by default,Ali gave them ,he didn't win them,imo.I think Ali showed some compassion that night to be honest.

[DRMULLEN]

with roids around, who knows.

[Bummy Davis]

I think Marciano, Frazier, Lewis and Dempsey has a good chance because of his hook, Holmes may trouble Ali because of a somewhat mirror image, Ali had the right hand lead that would land and Holmes had a solid Jab to break Ali's rythym...like his matchup with Norton I dont think Ali's punch vs Holmes makes a big Difference, almost like Walcott and Charles rds and rds of taking turns...a prime Tyson is no walk in the park but the mental war if the going got tough may be a factor but If Tyson takes an early lead and his confidence grows...but Ali had a good thing with 2 Big Slow bullies....Tyson was a short, fast bully but the early rds would take one hell of a rope-a dope to come out on top.....Almost forgot an ON Walcott would be stylistic hell for Ali and Walcott had the HOOK as well....This one would be a masterpiece

[booradley]

Larry Holmes. Prime for Prime would beat Ali IMO.

:nono

Helluva fight, but Ali takes it by being a bit quicker, a bit smarter, and a little tougher.

[JohnThomas1]

A completely fair observation JT, and I've been building large bases from tenuously narrow foundations ever since I joined ESB (as you know all too well). But it's what I have to work with, and extrapolating like this always carries substantial risks. (With SRR vs Hearns, I probably wouldn't have done that using the Shields bout alone, but had the Weston straw to grasp at.)

Remember too tho that Hearns was a genuine fledgling (which you admit) when he fought Weston and was caught up a bit by his vast experience. If we took SRR at a similar career stage i am sure he too would have had his struggles and inexperience.

By the same token too the monster that was Hearns at Duran 154 time is an entirely different animal to the one that fought Shields. Regardless of whether SRR had more experience the fight would be won and lost on ability. Hearns had learnt many lessons from the SRL loss and was more tactically sound. He was plenty experienced to give his best vs Robinson by then.

The other thing, a biggie, is what was the scores vs Shields? Hearns was ahead 119-110, 119-111 and 120-109. Do you think SRR is going to sit back defensive like this and get basically whitewashed on rounds? He's coming to win, and by coming to win Hearns will have plenty of offensive opportunites. Robinson is not a Benitez or Whitaker, and he will exchange plenty.

Ali was tremendous against Terrell, but Ernie was also dreadful in that one, compared to how he appeared later that year with Spencer.

Terrell wasn't fighting Spencer tho, he was fighting Ali. I hear a bit of how bad Terrell was that night, but if he mimicked a rabbit caught in headlights it's still attributable to Ali, whether phychologically or physically. Ali owned him, bigtime. He performed a psych job on him then backed it up in the ring.

In 1967, Ali didn't seem too excited about the crop of contenders left after Folley, and spoke with no great inspiration about his next scheduled defense in Tokyo against Bonavena. Nobody was going to properly motivate him before Frazier was ready. (If Joe's bad eye forced him into a premature retirement as it did Leotis Martin, I don't think Ali would have ever returned from exile.)

You make a very very interesting point here, one i'd never considered. Ali would have come back at some point tho, he like many others adored the limelight and would have been back chasing it. Retiring for good just doesn't come easy for boxers.

So would I. Speed kills, and Fleischer said he was the fastest.

Agreed!

Ali-Frazier in 1968 or 1969 would have been a fast paced and hectic 15 rounds, but Ali would have had too much athleticism to succumb at that stage.

Frazier is a perfectly rational choice, considering how Ali didn't mind giving away bodyshots.

Agreed!

Let me be clear here. The Ali of Cleveland Williams may have been the closest thing to an invincible heavyweight we've ever seen, and I wouldn't bet money on anybody to beat that hyperactive version of the GOAT.

I picked this up from your post just prior because i am utterly in agreeance. This is the whole story right here for me. You and i are just picking those we think would put on the best show (with some sort of chance), really.

[Russell]

And during the filming of the Superfight, he said "Rocky was a lot harder to hit with a jab than he looked. I can't imagine fighting him in his prime." If an old, 45 year-old Marciano was able to slip Ali's jab and punish him, imagine what the prime Marciano would have done.

An out of shape, out of the ring for years, pot bellied rusty Ali.

Mhm boy nice job telling both sides there.

[Holmes' Jab]

Holmes, Lewis, Louis, Norton and Frazier. Whether they could is another thing altogether.

[Shake]

Knowing Rocky, he might have been in better shape than Ali for that exhibition! :lol:

Bloody monster.

[Brummy1976]

Joe Louis, and for several reasons. He wrote an article called "How I would have clobbered Clay." Here it is.



This is the same strategy that Joe Frazier used to beat Ali. Work the body early to slow him down for the later rounds, and when he drops his hands or u catch him against the ropes, go for the knockout. However, Ali was good at shaking off one good punch, but he probably wouldn't be able to take combinations. Joe Louis threw fast, accuarate and powerful combinations.

One more thing; Ali had trouble with Ken Norton in three fights because of one thing; the left jab. Ali couldn't block a jab. If Norton's jab destroyed Ali's rhythm, can you imagine how the Joe Louis jab would have worked? Joe's jab was fast and deadly like a cobra. 15 rounds is a long time, and Joe Louis, with his fast hand speed and body punching, would hurt Ali late in the fight.

Aside from Joe Louis, I'd give Marciano a slight chance to beat Ali as well. Rocky punched harder than Frazier, and Ali has said himself numerous times that Rocky would have been hard to beat. He said "Rocky was better than Joe Frazier, and you saw what Joe Frazier did to me..."

And during the filming of the Superfight, he said "Rocky was a lot harder to hit with a jab than he looked. I can't imagine fighting him in his prime." If an old, 45 year-old Marciano was able to slip Ali's jab and punish him, imagine what the prime Marciano would have done.Pmsl, u do know that it was computerised and complete bullshit the marciano ali fight dont u ? 45 yr old marciano slipping and punishing ali :rofl

[KTFO]

An Ali 'fooling around':
Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis, V.Klitschko

An Ali 'focused':
No one of the modern HWs.

[Duodenum]

"Rocky was a lot harder to hit with a jab than he looked. I can't imagine fighting him in his prime." If an old, 45 year-old Marciano was able to slip Ali's jab and punish him, imagine what the prime Marciano would have done."Rocky's not as easy to hit as he looks. He hides behind that shoulder with that short little jab you laugh at, until you realize he's setting you up for the bad medicine, that right hand."-Paraphrasing Roland LaStarza (who knows all about prime Marciano) before their title fight rematch. So Ali was hardly the first to make this observation.

(That Rocky was the same age for Murray Woroner's staged performance that Foreman was when he regained the title in real life, while Muhammad would have been at his physical peak if he was still competing then, are realizations I've never been able to separate from their charade, silly as that may seem.)

[janitor]

These two fought an Ali that was far far different from the one i see as peak around exile.IMO the younger faster and more nimble Ali would have gone quite ok vs these two. Frazier would have been much tougher i think.


I don't think that Ali would ever have had an easy time with Norton or Young.

He might have been a bit faster when he was younger but they would still have presented him with the same technical puzzles.

[Bokaj]

Holmes was taken to the title by Ritchie Giachetti, obviously a fine trainer, but not somebody ideally suited to strategizing for a peak Ali. But Larry then went and hired Eddie Futch, somebody who clearly understood how to box Muhammad better than any opposing trainer (including Ali's own Angelo Dundee, who worked against Muhammad with Jimmy Ellis). Holmes had the physical attributes and smarts necessary to carry out Futch's instructions.

Let me be clear here. The Ali of Cleveland Williams may have been the closest thing to an invincible heavyweight we've ever seen, and I wouldn't bet money on anybody to beat that hyperactive version of the GOAT. But with Futch in his corner, Larry might have done more than any other fantasy opponent to get Muhammad off his toes and harrass him effectively with his jab. Eddie also taught Holmes how to stop telegraphing his right, and Folley did manage to score with successive right leads in their match.

Futch was the one guy Ali least wanted to see in the opposing corner, and Larry had him for his legacy match with Cooney. (The last champion mentored by Futch was Bowe, something which ought to be taken into account when contemplating Ali-Bowe as well.)

You're right about Futch. But Ali seemed to thrive against well schooled fighter with more of a text book style. Ellis, Patterson, Quarry - they all posed Ali less trouble than less talented fighters like Chuvalo or Bonavena did. In fact Ali completely dominated them (except for Patterson in the rematch).

Doug Jones points to the opposite, though, but otherwise...

[Bokaj]

I don't think that Ali would ever have had an easy time with Norton or Young.

He might have been a bit faster when he was younger but they would still have presented him with the same technical puzzles.

I agree about Norton. Less sure about Young. Would he cope with someone so much faster (as well as bigger and stronger) than him? The version of Ali he fought was a mummy in comparison.

[Bokaj]

I am going to start with the assumption that I have nothing to loose by throwing these fighters at Ali and neither do they. With that in mind it can be done the following ways:


Counterpuncher
Ken Norton essentialy beat Ali by clever use of counterpunching and Ali never really did find a way to foil it. I do not imagine for one minute that Norton is the only fighter in history who could have employed this strategy sucesfully.

True. But Norton would not have won without his steady, unorthodox pressure. There have not been many like that. Archie Moore in a way, but not many others.

Ali hated two things: Steady, calculated pressure and unorthodoxy. Norton brought both + good skill and outstanding stamina. That's an unholy mix for Ali.

[frankenfrank]

(The last champion mentored by Futch was Bowe, something which ought to be taken into account when contemplating Ali-Bowe as well.)
wasn't it montell griffin ?

[Duodenum]

wasn't it montell griffin ?Of course I should have qualified heavyweight champion. (My bad.)

[Xplosive]

I think the early 80's Holmes, and late 80's Tyson would given Ali his toughest fights. But still, its hard to favor anyone over the late 60's Ali.

[janitor]

I agree about Norton. Less sure about Young. Would he cope with someone so much faster (as well as bigger and stronger) than him? The version of Ali he fought was a mummy in comparison.

What I took away from the Young fight was that Ali was not comfortable when he was forced to fight on the front foot.

Now based on that, if you had to find sombody to beat Ali, you might throw him in with sombody like Gene Tunney or Tommy Loughran to see what happened. It would be something els you could try.

If my life depended on finding sombody to beat Ali and I had three shots at it I might choose a small defensive fighter who fought on the back foot as one of my picks.

[lefthook31]

Holmes was taken to the title by Ritchie Giachetti, obviously a fine trainer, but not somebody ideally suited to strategizing for a peak Ali. But Larry then went and hired Eddie Futch, somebody who clearly understood how to box Muhammad better than any opposing trainer (including Ali's own Angelo Dundee, who worked against Muhammad with Jimmy Ellis). Holmes had the physical attributes and smarts necessary to carry out Futch's instructions.

Let me be clear here. The Ali of Cleveland Williams may have been the closest thing to an invincible heavyweight we've ever seen, and I wouldn't bet money on anybody to beat that hyperactive version of the GOAT. But with Futch in his corner, Larry might have done more than any other fantasy opponent to get Muhammad off his toes and harrass him effectively with his jab. Eddie also taught Holmes how to stop telegraphing his right, and Folley did manage to score with successive right leads in their match.

Futch was the one guy Ali least wanted to see in the opposing corner, and Larry had him for his legacy match with Cooney. (The last champion mentored by Futch was Bowe, something which ought to be taken into account when contemplating Ali-Bowe as well.)
Giachetti did become a fine trainer, but your right about your points. There was no better strategist than Futch. Id put Steward and Brooks up there near th top as well.

[Duodenum]

What I took away from the Young fight was that Ali was not comfortable when he was forced to fight on the front foot.

Now based on that, if you had to find somebody to beat Ali, you might throw him in with somebody like Gene Tunney or Tommy Loughran to see what happened. It would be something else you could try.

If my life depended on finding somebody to beat Ali and I had three shots at it I might choose a small defensive fighter who fought on the back foot as one of my picks.I think Ali was not comfortable showing his flabby body on network television and before a live audience, and would have preferred wearing an untucked tee shirt over his torso.

What I took away from his match with Jimmy is that he may have been telling the truth 3-1/2 weeks later when saying that former Young knockout victim Dunn would have dethroned him if Ali was in the same kind of poor condition. At that stage of Jimmy's career, he would have been a nuisance for most anybody, but I think too much has been made of a match where Muhammad had no business punching for pay, and was better trained for an ice cream eating contest. (I would have demanded my money back. Fortunately, it was aired live for free.)

Through the first five rounds against the shorter counter-punching MacArthur Foster, he made the fight (trying to make good on a fifth round knockout prediction) and looked all right in doing so. (Interestingly, this was at his highest competitive weight until Young.) Tunney and Loughran were movers though, a different kettle of fish from Mac.

[Bokaj]

What I took away from the Young fight was that Ali was not comfortable when he was forced to fight on the front foot.

Now based on that, if you had to find sombody to beat Ali, you might throw him in with sombody like Gene Tunney or Tommy Loughran to see what happened. It would be something els you could try.

If my life depended on finding sombody to beat Ali and I had three shots at it I might choose a small defensive fighter who fought on the back foot as one of my picks.

Yeah, people like to use the Young fight as an example of that. Don't know why really. Sure, Ali was better backing off and countering, but he sure walked Foster and Patterson (rematch) down. He was also pretty good on the offensive against Bugner. So to use a fight where he was old, unmotivated and in terrible shape as proof that he couldn't fight on the front foot is not solid.

[Hydraulix]

Pmsl, u do know that it was computerised and complete bullshit the marciano ali fight dont u ? 45 yr old marciano slipping and punishing ali :rofl

Ali said Rocky hurt him just from sparring with him. You know they sparred for over 70 rounds and the computer edited how an actual fight with them would have resulted. Plus, the body shots were real.

[JohnThomas1]

I don't think that Ali would ever have had an easy time with Norton or Young.

He might have been a bit faster when he was younger but they would still have presented him with the same technical puzzles.

Ali post exile and pre exile is not the same fighter. He had to fight the likes of Norton and Young mostly flatfooted and often lazing around the ropes. The rare times when Ali was on his toes vs Norton he was fine. I can't see peak Ali giving Norton a sniff in. Norton was no-where near as good as Frazier at imposing pressure. Ali's hands were also much faster earlier. These guys are no chance of winning imo, no chance.

[ripcity]

Tyson
Louis
Lewis
The brothers Klitchiko
Bowe
Frazier

[Stevie G]

Tyson
Louis
Lewis
The brothers Klitchiko
Bowe
Frazier
Out of the six that you mention,Louis and Lewis would have the best chance. Although I can't see them actually doing it. Bowe has little chance,and the Bros. Klitscko would have Ziltscko. Imo.

[Stevie G]

Out of the six that you mention,Louis and Lewis would have the best chance. Although I can't see them actually doing it. Bowe has little chance,and the Bros. Klitscko would have Ziltscko. Imo.
Sorry for picking up on my own quote ! But I forgot Tyson. His chance lies between Louis/Lewis and Bowe.

[anarci]

About a 1/2 hour ago i watched an old wide world of sports on espn classic where Ali was analyzin all the great heavyweights before him. He said hed beat everyone from Johnson to Louis handily. When it came to Charles/Walcott he said theyd be tough fights,he also said Marciano would be tough cause hed come at him like Fraizer and he didnt like those type of fights.......Personally i think Holmes would have given him trouble. Also Lewis would probably beat a post 1975 Ali,but not the 60s or early 70s version.

[Sister Sledge]

I always thought that Holmes could beat Ali because of his great jab and ring intelligence.

Frazier would always give Ali trouble.

A skilled big guy like Bowe would also give Ali trouble because Ali wasn't a great defensive fighter, so he would get hit, couped with the fact that Bowe had the stamina to go all the way.

Lewis didn't have the stamina, Tyson didn't have the mental focus.

[JohnThomas1]

A skilled big guy like Bowe would also give Ali trouble because Ali wasn't a great defensive fighter, so he would get hit, couped with the fact that Bowe had the stamina to go all the way.


Ali pre exile was a fantastic defensive fighter :huh

[Quick Cash]

Oh, good. So I'm not the only one that thinks that. I Ali lands on Holmes much easier than vice versa by virtue of his legs, speed and reflexes. I also think Ali would adjust well to the Holmes jab after maybe the first four rounds and distances himself slightly better (presuming you 'forget' the fact they sparred together to null any advantage)

I like Marciano's style, but young Ali was sick good at cutting people. I remember Henry Cooper saying 'Ali's jab was a long jab, he stretched it outward, and it dragged your flesh.' (instead of a dull impact, which lead to cuts)

Tyson has the fast pressure down pat, but I feel Ali can win a war. I feel he has such an edge mentally here -- he's unlikely to be knocked out early, and will be there for the later rounds. I see Mike's eyes closing around the 8th. I don't know if Mike has that special toughness to deal with it and win -- he can take punishment, but can he do more than absorb and tip the scales of power? I'm doubtful.

Weird ass shout that doesn't belong here, but I'd love to see Witherspoon in there with Ali. He could pull a Norton.

Good post all around, plus a surprisingly refreshing pick in Witherspoon. Now that I think about it, this could actually develop into a very frustrating match for Ali. Along that same vein, and I'm sure his fans will just lap this up, I think Vitali would also present an awkward task. I see him as intelligent enough and stubborn enough to force Ali to lead. Ali might approach the fight in a way similar to his handling of Joe Bugner, but we all agree Klitschko is much better than that.

[TommyV]

Constant pressure, if you are going to put him on the back foot where he wants to be, then give him as little room & time as possible.
Work the body early on. Take away that dazzling foot-speed, other wise he will dance around you all night. Then come on strong late on.
Constant head movement aswell. Don't let him time you with that jab & right hand. Don't underestimate his power.
Cut the ring off, don't allow him room to fire off combinations and simply move around either side.
Utilize a good left hook. We know he's been down from left hook's before, I think he's a bit open to them.

With all that, I think Frazier obviously stands a great chance prime-for-prime, and obviously won the FOTC. I think Marciano, as much as I've been a critic of him at times, may have a good chance aswell. Similarly, possibly Jack Dempsey, though I think he's an outside shot.

Incidently, I think a quality defensive-minded, intelligent operator might also stand a chance of beating Ali, however bar Jack Johnson they have been all 2 scarce at heavyweight over the years. I don't think Ali liked being the aggressor, nor am I convinced he could attack the body well, and his defensive capabilities lied in his lateral movement. If he stood in front of a Jack Johnson teeing off, he's wide open until he moves. Could Johnson be the man to put Ali on the front-foot uncomfortably, take away his lateral movement in a sense, counter off his jab and take a decision? I'm not sure, he may be a bit too small in a sense.

[Duodenum]

Ali post exile and pre exile is not the same fighter. He had to fight the likes of Norton and Young mostly flatfooted and often lazing around the ropes. The rare times when Ali was on his toes vs Norton he was fine. I can't see peak Ali giving Norton a sniff in. Norton was no-where near as good as Frazier at imposing pressure.JT, I think this is the point where we should probably advise people to review the first several rounds of Ali-Norton II, where Ken followed and posed while Muhammad danced and punched. During Ali's peak, that's likely the pattern through all 15 rounds. Chasing alone doesn't score points, punching and landing tends to be a little more useful there.Ali's hands were also much faster earlier.As well conditioned as Ali was for the Norton rematch, Harry Carpenter stated that he only regained a semblance of his old handspeed for the second match with Frazier. (It seemed to remain in place for his upset of Foreman, though George could make lots of opponents look faster.)These guys are no chance of winning imo, no chance.A key reason why I tossed out the name of Holmes is because Larry could be much more aggressive with his jab than Norton was. He would not have been posing while Ali was getting off his shots, but making Muhammad defend against something.

Where Jimmy Young is concerned, he continually retreated against Foreman, but also got off first consistently, initiating fire with his pesky double jab. Jimmy was also a dedicated body puncher, something unusual for a boxer with his relative lack of firepower, and he went downstairs on George a number of times. As Muhammad tended to give away body shots, Young could make the scoring with a peak Ali closer than somebody with the GOAT's abilities ought to allow it by targeting his torso for scoring purposes.

Jimmy would need to make Ali come forward while getting off his punches first, essential with Muhammad's superior speed. His lack of power might lull Ali into a false sense of security. Dundee would need to keep him alert to what trickery Young was trying to pull off.

[red cobra]

One of my favorite heavyweights ever is Jimmy Young, which strikes some as rather odd.

[groove]

the ali v williams & terrell was in a class of his own. jimmy young would be a punching bag against that version.

[JIm Broughton]

From 1900 to 1950 I'd pick Johnson, Dempsey and Louis to possibly beat a prime Ali. From 1950 to present I'd pick Frazier, Holmes, Lewis and Holyfield (Yes Holyfield) to do the trick. I still can't see any favorites though...Just possibilities.

[groove]

Jack Johnson is a good pick - possibly a bit slow but he's tough and has his own style that would cause problems (ali's number 2 of all-time). to beat ali you gotta be as quick as him - tyson and dempsey would be dangerous early on. any slow movers or punchers haven't got a chance against a peak ali so louis and marciano are out for movement like liston and foreman couldn't win for big slower punchers. frazier was quick so he would always be tough. holmes and lewis would be boring cagey fights but ali has the extra speed factor that would prevail on points win IMO. tunney v ali would be interesting as they were both very smart adaptable fighters in the ring.

[PunchOut]

Prime Fucking Tyson

[anarci]

About a 1/2 hour ago i watched an old wide world of sports on espn classic where Ali was analyzin all the great heavyweights before him. He said hed beat everyone from Johnson to Louis handily. When it came to Charles/Walcott he said theyd be tough fights,he also said Marciano would be tough cause hed come at him like Fraizer and he didnt like those type of fights.......Personally i think Holmes would have given him trouble. Also Lewis would probably beat a post 1975 Ali,but not the 60s or early 70s version.
Even though Ali was not the most humble guy. I did get a sense of genuine honesty on his opinions of the old greats he didnt disrespect anyone he just called it how he saw it,and he didnt care for Dempsey of Johnsons style but he praised Tunney as one of the first fighters to actually show good technique. Also Praised Louis ability,but downed his lack of footwork. He was genuinly impressed with Charles,Walcott thought Marciano made many mistakes but that his genuine toughness and power made up for all that and Ali says those 3 would have been his toughest.

[JohnThomas1]

JT, I think this is the point where we should probably advise people to review the first several rounds of Ali-Norton II, where Ken followed and posed while Muhammad danced and punched. During Ali's peak, that's likely the pattern through all 15 rounds. Chasing alone doesn't score points, punching and landing tends to be a little more useful there.As well conditioned as Ali was for the Norton rematch, Harry Carpenter stated that he only regained a semblance of his old handspeed for the second match with Frazier. (It seemed to remain in place for his upset of Foreman, though George could make lots of opponents look faster.)A key reason why I tossed out the name of Holmes is because Larry could be much more aggressive with his jab than Norton was. He would not have been posing while Ali was getting off his shots, but making Muhammad defend against something.

Where Jimmy Young is concerned, he continually retreated against Foreman, but also got off first consistently, initiating fire with his pesky double jab. Jimmy was also a dedicated body puncher, something unusual for a boxer with his relative lack of firepower, and he went downstairs on George a number of times. As Muhammad tended to give away body shots, Young could make the scoring with a peak Ali closer than somebody with the GOAT's abilities ought to allow it by targeting his torso for scoring purposes.

Jimmy would need to make Ali come forward while getting off his punches first, essential with Muhammad's superior speed. His lack of power might lull Ali into a false sense of security. Dundee would need to keep him alert to what trickery Young was trying to pull off.

Super post mate. You've covered heaps right there and it's good to have someone in the exact same corner.

[Titan1]

Greg Page, if he was in shape and was motivated.

[alexvoce]

tyson, louis, frazier, norton, holmes