What's your take on Marciano KO1 Walcott?

[McGrain]

It seems to me, sometimes, that Marciano gets more credit for being beaten up and then stopping Walcott late than he does the KO1. Thinking seems to be that a) Walcott quit or b) Rocky destroyed Walcott in the first fight or c) Jersey Joe misjudged the count , but it's still a KO1 over a top 20 (usually) HW.

What's your own view? Was Walcott past it, and the win therefore worthless? What of the fact that he looked so wonderful in the first fight with Marciano? Regardless of your feelings, how highly do you rate the win? What is it comarable to? People cream over Tyson-Spinks, Walcott is a better HW than Spinks...your thoughts?

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[Duodenum]

This was a precursor of Chuvalo-Quarry. Rocky decked Joe, who lost the count, simple as that. (Standing eight counts were not the rule then.)

It's too bad the rematch had to end like that, as it might have been another classic confrontation. Marciano does deserve credit for getting off to a fast start though.

[PowerPuncher]

This was a precursor of Chuvalo-Quarry. Rocky decked Joe, who lost the count, simple as that. (Standing eight counts were not the rule then.)

It's too bad the rematch had to end like that, as it might have been another classic confrontation. Marciano does deserve credit for getting off to a fast start though.

Either that or Joe just thought 'F*ck it'

[fists of fury]

Walcott grew old in a single round.
The way I see it, he was probably feeling full of pep and enthusiasm going in, but when he was dropped by that right, all those memories of the first fight came flooding back and he decided to sit it out.

I suppose one could equate that to an old guy who used to jog, then one day decides to run around the local park. He limbers up and starts off, but after a few minutes he gets a stitch and remembers his age...and limps off home, deflated.

I'm not calling Jersey Joe a coward. He had paid his dues as a fighter and had surrendered the title after a very hard fight.
Maybe as he was taking the count, he thought to himself: "Is this really worth it anymore?"
Maybe it wasn't really even a concious thought.

But the position in which he took the count (on his bum) and the way he suddenly jumped up right after the ten count suggests he had no interest in rising when he should have.

It was a decent win for Rocky, but I've always felt Walcott could have gotten up.

[McGrain]

Marciano does deserve credit for getting off to a fast start though.

Curious buddy, do you feel this way about all first round KO's?

It was a decent win for Rocky, but I've always felt Walcott could have gotten up.

How about this: you have to make your man quit.





Anyone got a take on my Tyson-Spinks comparison?

[McGrain]

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[My2Sense]

People cream over Tyson-Spinks, Walcott is a better HW than Spinks...


That's an interesting point, and I've always felt Marciano deserved more credit than he gets for this performance.

He started off fast (in contrast to the first fight, or most of his fights in general), kept Walcott off balance, and then took him out with a sneak right that Walcott never saw coming. Of course Walcott was "old" then - but when wasn't he old? :lol: He was still good enough to have been the legitimate undisputed HW champ only the year before, and had twice beaten a HOF champ in Ezzard (once by shocking KO). No one else had ever taken out Walcott like that before, and no really one expected Rocky to - and that alone means Rocky deserves some degree of credit IMO.

This is a fight that should probably be considered Rocky's defining moment (like his own Tyson-Spinks fight) yet it's a case of a fight being totally dismissed because of a presumed excuse. I do agree Walcott may possibly have said "No mas" after he was dropped, but I don't agree with the notion that he outright "took a dive" the way Liston did in the Ali rematch. I would say the outcome is more comparable to Tyson-Spinks, in which Walcott/Spinks actually did show up to fight, but possibly became discouraged after feeling his opponent's power and then perhaps "quit" after he was dropped. The punch that floored Walcott was a legitimate great punch and Walcott never saw it coming. I think if you make a guy quit with the force of your fists (which is assuming Walcott actually did "quit" - only he could ever really know that) then you deserve as much credit as if you knocked him unconscious.

[fists of fury]

Curious buddy, do you feel this way about all first round KO's?



How about this: you have to make your man quit.

Anyone got a take on my Tyson-Spinks comparison?

Sure. That's part of what I was saying...after he felt that power again, the memories came flooding back. Of course, nobody know for sure. It was a decent shot, no doubt. I just feel Walcott could have gotten up.

It's interesting that Rocky started more quickly though, don't you think? Either he didn't want to fall behind early again, or Goldman, being the crafty old fox he was, thought that Walcott was there to be gotten rid of quickly.

I'm not sure how much of a comparison one can draw to Tyson v Spinks and this fight.
The circumstances were entirely different.
Tyson v Spinks was a battle between two undefeated fighters, one being the lineal champ and the other holding all the belts.
Spinks was finished from that Tyson right and could not have gotten up if the count reached 50.

What's your take on the 2nd Walcott fight?

[McGrain]

That's an interesting point, and I've always felt Marciano deserved more credit than he gets for this performance.

He started off fast (in contrast to the first fight, or most of his fights in general), kept Walcott off balance, and then took him out with a sneak right that Walcott never saw coming. Of course Walcott was "old" then - but when wasn't he old? :lol: He was still good enough to have been the legitimate undisputed HW champ only the year before, and had twice beaten a HOF champ in Ezzard (once by shocking KO). No one else had ever taken out Walcott like that before, and no really one expected Rocky to - and that alone means Rocky deserves some degree of credit IMO.

This is a fight that should probably be considered Rocky's defining moment (like his own Tyson-Spinks fight) yet it's a case of a fight being totally dismissed because of a presumed excuse.

Yeah, I agree with almost everything here. Not only had he done Ezzard and been champ shortly before, he also turned in perhaps his best surviving filmed performance against Rocky in his very last fight...there are other contenders, of course, and from what i've seen of Louis I, that might have been even better boxing, and there are other contenders, but still...he looked like a genuine top drawer fighter something like 9 months earlier?

[TheGreatA]

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[McGrain]

It's interesting that Rocky started more quickly though, don't you think? Either he didn't want to fall behind early again, or Goldman, being the crafty old fox he was, thought that Walcott was there to be gotten rid of quickly.

I think the former. Rocky had horrible trouble in the first round of the first fight after all.

I'm not sure how much of a comparison one can draw to Tyson v Spinks and this fight.
The circumstances were entirely different.
Tyson v Spinks was a battle between two undefeated fighters, one being the lineal champ and the other holding all the belts.
Spinks was finished from that Tyson right and could not have gotten up if the count reached 50.

Sure, but Tyson is seen as a sort of God on that night even though Spinks is seen by many as semi-beaten before he stepped in? Whereas Walcott, also seen as semi-beaten by some before he got in, is seen as a compromised win for Marcaino? I think there are parallels, but for some reason Marciano comes off worse...though your point about Spinks's status is well made (though let's not forget that Walcott was ex-champ by one fight only).


What's your take on the 2nd Walcott fight?

Great win.

[TheGreatA]

Lets be honest here, Walcott was nearly 40 years of age and had been violently knocked out in the fight before it. Not just knocked out, but knocked out cold. There's no way he was the same man that fought Rocky 9 months earlier.

[McGrain]

Lets be honest here, Walcott was nearly 40 years of age and had been violently knocked out in the fight before it. Not just knocked out, but knocked out cold. There's no way he was the same man that fought Rocky 9 months earlier.


Sure, but he was getting alone when Louis smashed his head in, too, but went on to beat Charles, Johson, Hoff etc. as well as turn in that great performance against Rocky...he had loads of rest and we have under three minutes of footage to draw the conculsion that there was "no way he was the same man" he was before...I think that's a big shout chum, actually, based on what we have.

Not that you are wrong, but I don't know that there is enough there for me to be able to hop on board.

[TheGreatA]

Sure, but he was getting alone when Louis smashed his head in, too, but went on to beat Charles, Johson, Hoff etc. as well as turn in that great performance against Rocky...he had loads of rest and we have under three minutes of footage to draw the conculsion that there was "no way he was the same man" he was before...I think that's a big shout chum, actually, based on what we have.

Not that you are wrong, but I don't know that there is enough there for me to be able to hop on board.

He was 34 years old then though and didn't have all those fights against Charles, Johnson, Hoff, Layne, Marciano then, many of them tough fights. He also didn't go onto beat anybody after the first round KO loss to Marciano but instead retired for good.

The fact that the fight only lasted 3 minutes, with Walcott putting up little resistance, and being blown away in one round pretty much shows, in my opinion, that he was badly faded since the first fight.

This was the man who nearly blew Marciano himself away in the very first round.

[McGrain]

He was 34 years old then though and didn't have all those fights against Charles, Johnson, Hoff, Layne, Marciano then, many of them tough fights. He also didn't go onto beat anybody after the first round KO loss to Marciano but instead retired for good.

The fact that the fight only lasted 3 minutes, with Walcott putting up little resistance, and being blown away in one round pretty much shows, in my opinion, that he was badly faded since the first fight.


Well - he might have been badly faded. But what i'm saying is, the previous performance was pretty special - very special maybe? - for a losing performance, and he was KO'd in 1 by a great HW puncher in his next fight. So where does the proof lie? In his timly retirement? I just don't see enough to toss out that judgement automatically.

[Russell]

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Look at the mans eyes and how fucking high Walcott is!

We know why he couldn't get up now, dude was fucked up on something. :rofl

[TheGreatA]

Well - he might have been badly faded. But what i'm saying is, the previous performance was pretty special - very special maybe? - for a losing performance, and he was KO'd in 1 by a great HW puncher in his next fight. So where does the proof lie? In his timly retirement? I just don't see enough to toss out that judgement automatically.

I think the proof is right there. He put on a great effort at 38-39 years of age, ended up getting viciously KO'd while leading on points, and had little left for the rematch. He didn't even have a single round left in him.

[McGrain]

I think the proof is right there. He put on a great effort at 38-39 years of age, ended up getting viciously KO'd while leading on points, and had little left for the rematch. He didn't even have a single round left in him.


Or -

He got knocked out by a sneaky shot from a world class HW puncher and missed beating the count by half a second.

[GPater11093]

as Fists of Fury says with his analogy of the old guy running

he got the count and thought about the last fight and wanted to get out of there, again im not saying he quit as he probably did want to get up to start with.

However jersey joe never hit me as a type of guy to moan about stuff unless justified so his talk about a short count does hold a tiny bit true with me

[mcvey]

Walcott was a lot more cautious in his start here , but that was to be expected after being kod in their first fight.
I do know that Marciano practised that uppercut ,as an article about it was published before the fight.
It was a good shot many sports writers present thought that Walcott could have gotten up ,but decided not to .I have that month's Ring magazine.Walcott claimed he blacked out during the middle of the count and lost the "numbers",and ,that's why he couldn't beleive he had been counted out.Could he have gotten up? Only Walcott knew the answer to that .
Marciano was seriouly pissed because he felt he had landed a great shot ,and didnt get the credit for it.

[fists of fury]

Sure, but Tyson is seen as a sort of God on that night even though Spinks is seen by many as semi-beaten before he stepped in? Whereas Walcott, also seen as semi-beaten by some before he got in, is seen as a compromised win for Marcaino? I think there are parallels, but for some reason Marciano comes off worse...though your point about Spinks's status is well made (though let's not forget that Walcott was ex-champ by one fight only).



I suppose the difference really lies in the fact that Tyson, by beating Spinks, had now fully conquered the division. There were no more irritating questions about who really the boss was.
It was his crowning achievement.
That said, the win is slightly tainted because of how scared Spinks was.

I don't see the 2nd Walcott fight as being compromised personally. It was a fight that Rocky won fair and square, and you'll get no argument from me if you want to call it a great performance.
But like the Spinks fight, there is an element of 'mmm' about it.

Put it this way: there are other fights in Rocky's career that were far more dramatic; the first Walcott fight for one, both Charles fights, the Vingo fight...maybe even the first LaStarza fight. I guess Walcott 2 just got lost in the shuffle somewhere.

[TheGreatA]

Or -

He got knocked out by a sneaky shot from a world class HW puncher and missed beating the count by half a second.

His chin stood up to Rocky's blows quite well in the first fight, until the 13th round KO.

How many cases are there of boxers near their 40's coming back from a KO as vicious as the Marciano-Walcott I KO?

[McGrain]

His chin stood up to Rocky's blows quite well in the first fight, until the 13th round KO.

How many cases are there of boxers near their 40's coming back from a KO as vicious as the Marciano-Walcott I KO?


But Walcott was unique, and his career was unique.

Returning to the Spinks analogy, Spinks also never fought again after being brutally KO'd versus Tyson. His chin had previously been seen as respectable. He never fought again. He was dusted in a single round. Was he, therefore, finished as a fighter when he got in with Mike Tyson?

I submit that the only reason Walcott is seen as being washed up is his age, which, as proven by not just Walcott but Hopkins and Moore - who yes, came back at an advanced age after being ko'd by none other than Rocky Marciano - have proven that it's just a number.

[McGrain]

I suppose the difference really lies in the fact that Tyson, by beating Spinks, had now fully conquered the division. There were no more irritating questions about who really the boss was.
It was his crowning achievement.
That said, the win is slightly tainted because of how scared Spinks was.

I don't see the 2nd Walcott fight as being compromised personally. It was a fight that Rocky won fair and square, and you'll get no argument from me if you want to call it a great performance.
But like the Spinks fight, there is an element of 'mmm' about it.

Put it this way: there are other fights in Rocky's career that were far more dramatic; the first Walcott fight for one, both Charles fights, the Vingo fight...maybe even the first LaStarza fight. I guess Walcott 2 just got lost in the shuffle somewhere.


I'd agree with all that.


The other thing is, Rocky is most famous for his heart and fury, so guys like his come-from-behind KO's.

[fists of fury]

I submit that the only reason Walcott is seen as being washed up is his age

I've never seen Walcott as washed up for that fight. Maybe just too washed up for Marciano.

By the way, Spinks was seriously thinking about a comeback in either '91 or '92. His knees apparently just weren't up to it, and he decided against it.

[GPater11093]

would a 2nd or 3rd round KO change your idea on this fight (apart from the result)

maybe Joe was caught cold

[My2Sense]

Sure, but he was getting alone when Louis smashed his head in, too, but went on to beat Charles, Johson, Hoff etc. as well as turn in that great performance against Rocky...he had loads of rest and we have under three minutes of footage to draw the conculsion that there was "no way he was the same man" he was before...I think that's a big shout chum, actually, based on what we have.


Agreed.

To me, this is somewhat similar to when Carlos Ortiz whupped Joe Brown. Before the fight, Brown was favored to win. After Ortiz shut him down and dominated him, people just said, "Brown got old" or "That was just an old man," etc. I think anytime a fighter whups a fighter of advanced age, people will say, "He only beat an old man." Thing is, if Ortiz had goten the fight with Brown a couple years earlier (when he first pushed for it) and beaten him the same way, people would've said the exact same thing. Likewise, if someone had blown out Walcott a year, or 2 years, or 4 years earlier, people would've said he was just an "old man" then too.

I think this is one of those strange situations where a fighter somehow gets less credit for dominating a fighter more. If he had struggled a bit with Walcott, perhaps come from behind a second time, people would say, "See! Walcott still had a lot left at that time." But because he blew him out so decisively and never let him show what he might've had, people assume he must not have had anything left.

[McGrain]

I think anytime a fighter whups a fighter of advanced age, people will say, "He only beat an old man.".

And Rocky gets that tight, both for Walcott, and less understandably (look at his success post and pre-Rocky), Moore.

I think this is one of those strange situations where a fighter somehow gets less credit for dominating a fighter more.

That's basically the premis of the thread. It was McLarnin-Corbett that got me thinking about it. Obviously this win isn't that special, but as far as a first round KO over a (loosely speaking) ATG fighter goes, it is underated something crazy.

[TheGreatA]

I guess I could see the point but this wasn't a case of a great champion taking on a young challenger at an advanced age, this was a case of a former champion taking on the man who had taken the title away from him with a devastating KO.

What if Joe Brown had fought Ortiz again and been KO'd in the first?

How do you rate Carlos Monzon's rematch win over Benvenuti by the way?

Rocky also had a reputation for ruining men. Charles, Layne, LaStarza were never the same.

I don't see the Spinks comparison because Spinks was a 31 year old undefeated linear champion at the time Tyson blew him out in one round.

[My2Sense]

I suppose the difference really lies in the fact that Tyson, by beating Spinks, had now fully conquered the division. There were no more irritating questions about who really the boss was.
It was his crowning achievement.


But the second Walcott fight was intended to settle certain matters for Marciano as well. There were a lot of people who felt his first win over Walcott was just a "fluke" or that he landed a "lucky punch". To many people, he needed to beat Walcott decisively in a return in order to affirm his superiority over him in their minds.

[GPater11093]

I guess I could see the point but this wasn't a case of a great champion taking on a young challenger at an advanced age, this was a case of a former champion taking on the man who had taken the title away from him with a devastating KO.

What if Joe Brown had fought Ortiz again and been KO'd in the first?

How do you rate Carlos Monzon's rematch win over Benvenuti by the way?

Rocky also had a reputation for ruining men. Charles, Layne, LaStarza were never the same.


sorry to butt in

but that fight cracks me up when Benvenuti goes down from a slip and the towel gets thrown in so he runs and kicks it back out :lol:

[McGrain]

I guess I could see the point but this wasn't a case of a great champion taking on a young challenger at an advanced age, this was a case of a former champion taking on the man who had taken the title away from him with a devastating KO.

What if Joe Brown had fought Ortiz again and been KO'd in the first?

How do you rate Carlos Monzon's rematch win over Benvenuti by the way?

Rocky also had a reputation for ruining men. Charles, Layne, LaStarza were never the same.

I don't see the Spinks comparison because Spinks was a 31 year old undefeated linear champion at the time Tyson blew him out in one round.


Yeah, and for your point of view there is definitely evidence aswell, but not enough to overide Walcott's form or what is on film (or not on film, by which i mean enough to draw a proper conclusion).

[McGrain]

sorry to butt in

but that fight cracks me up when Benvenuti goes down from a slip and the towel gets thrown in so he runs and kicks it back out :lol:

:lol:

[TheGreatA]

Yeah, and for your point of view there is definitely evidence aswell, but not enough to overide Walcott's form or what is on film (or not on film, by which i mean enough to draw a proper conclusion).

My evidence is that Walcott was coming off a brutal KO loss, was 39 years of age and got blown away in one round by a man he nearly blew out in their first fight. He never fought again.

Your evidence is the lack of evidence contrary to your viewpoint, which is that Walcott was not significantly faded.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[McGrain]

Your evidence is lack of evidence contrary to your viewpoint, which is that Walcott was not significantly faded.

That is very far from true. My evidence is based on Walcott's form coming into the fight which is absolutely extraordinary, back to back wins over ATG Ezzard Charles, a world class performance v top 10 ATG Rocky Marciano.

Three performances like this coming into such a fight is plenty evidence by which to judge Walcott's quality, as opposed to judgin him on the non-fights he had in a retirement which came about in identical circumstances to Micheal Spinks.

[red cobra]

I think Joe just had a flashback after being decked...maybe he just wasn't prepared to deal with being hit hard anymore..like a sponge can only soak up just so much...I think his subconcious just kind of derailed him or something, because I don't think it was truly a "ko punch" that Rocky hit him with...then when he got up he put up a front of indignation to more or less save face from what was basically a "quit job"..a sort of horizontal presursor to Duran's "no mas".

[McGrain]

I think Joe just had a flashback after being decked...maybe he just wasn't prepared to deal with being hit hard anymore..like a sponge can only soak up just so much...I think his subconcious just kind of derailed him or something, because I don't think it was truly a "ko punch" that Rocky hit him with...then when he got up he put up a front of indignation to more or less save face from what was basically a "quit job"..a sort of horizontal presursor to Duran's "no mas".


So you kind of feel like Rocky beat Joe twice with the first KO?

[TheGreatA]

That is very far from true. My evidence is based on Walcott's form coming into the fight which is absolutely extraordinary, back to back wins over ATG Ezzard Charles, a world class performance over top 10 ATG Rocky Marciano.

Three performances like this coming into such a fight is plenty evidence by which to judge Walcott's quality, as opposed to judgin him on the non-fights he had in a retirement which came about in identical circumstances to Micheal Spinks.

Those were three fights in three years. A KO loss and a 9 month layoff can do a lot to an old fighter.

Look at how Charles's career went after the Marciano fights. The same could be said for LaStarza or Layne. Soon these highly regarded fighters were no more than just average. I can't imagine Walcott going on to do anything after the Marciano losses, had he decided to fight on.

I wouldn't say they were identical circumstances. Walcott might have been an extra-ordinary old fighter but he was still nearly 40 years of age. Spinks was 31.

Perhaps you could compare the Spinks and Walcott fights, had Marciano KO'd Walcott in the first round of their first fight.

I'd like to know which old fighters have come back from KO losses such as this:

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[McGrain]

Those were three fights in three years. A KO loss and a 9 month layoff can do a lot to an old fighter.

CAN, but the very word implies speculation. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, just that, if anything, you're the one coming with a lack of hard evidence, but rather, speculation:

Look at how Charles's career went after the Marciano fights. The same could be said for LaStarza or Layne

Yes, but because these men struggled didn't mean Walcott was done, at all.

I can't imagine Walcott going on to do anything after the Marciano losses, had he decided to fight on.

How about Moore? If he, old like Walcott was, had decided to fight on after being stopped by Marciano, do you think he could have done anything?

I wouldn't say they were identical circumstances. Walcott might have been an extra-ordinary old fighter but he was still nearly 40 years of age. Spinks was 31.

Basically my argument; Marciano is penalilsed for his first round KO specifically because Walcott was old when he was stopped, despite the form he showed going in, with secondary evidence mainly speculation.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

It's a short sharp KO. Absolutley the best kind for coming back from based upon the medical evidence.

[Duodenum]

Curious buddy, do you feel this way about all first round KO's?I give Don Curry no great credit for the stupid way Roger Stafford "warmed up" for their title match by praying on the floor. However, Marciano-Walcott II was a stunning upshift in gears from the way Rocky's recent bouts had begun.

For all the single punch first round knockouts he had earlier in his career, he had actually gotten something of a reputation as more of a slow starter when getting into world class competition. (He was known to take a nap before competing.) Dropping Walcott in one was a dramatic reversal from how things commenced the first time, and the Rock must have been considerably more wired in his dressing room than usual. (Too much caffeine perhaps?)

[McGrain]

Dropping Walcott in one was a dramatic reversal from how things commenced the first time, and the Rock must have been considerably more wired in his dressing room than usual. (Too much caffeine perhaps?)

I wonder what his mood was in the dressing room? He'd achieved his goal and now here was a man who had made him look silly for stretches a year previously ready to try and take it from him...bet he was feeling evil.

[My2Sense]

What if Joe Brown had fought Ortiz again and been KO'd in the first?

Personally, I would've given him a lot of credit for that.

How do you rate Carlos Monzon's rematch win over Benvenuti by the way?

I rate that as an impressive win for Monzon. In that case though, you could argue that Benvenuti showed wear and tear in his non-title loss in between those fights. However, I still think Monzon deserves more credit than he gets for blowing out Benvenuti far faster than anyone had at that or any other time in his career.


I don't see the Spinks comparison because Spinks was a 31 year old undefeated linear champion at the time Tyson blew him out in one round.

I think they're similar in that in both cases, you could potentially raise questions about the opponent's actual quality regardless of his status. Remember that while Spinks was the lineal champ, Walcott was still the #1 contender. Spinks wasn't as old in years as Walcott, but he had other mars against him. He was only semi-active at that time (at one point, there was some question over whether he might be retired or not) and hadn't been fighting any legitimately ranked fighters - and in fact, appeared to be avoiding them, including Tyson himself. The last time he had fought a ranked fighter, Holmes, he escaped with a very questionable decision. He also showed up for the Tyson fight at a career high weight, which was at least 10 pounds over his ideal HW weight.

[GPater11093]

I wonder what his mood was in the dressing room? He'd achieved his goal and now here was a man who had made him look silly for stretches a year previously ready to try and take it from him...bet he was feeling evil.

must have been mad in tht dressung room

i can just see the focus on rocks face

Personally, I would've given him a lot of credit for that.



I rate that as an impressive win for Monzon. In that case though, you could argue that Benvenuti showed wear and tear in his non-title loss in between those fights. However, I still think Monzon deserves more credit than he gets for blowing out Benvenuti far faster than anyone had at that or any other time in his career.




I think they're similar in that in both cases, you could potentially raise questions about the opponent's actual quality regardless of his status. Remember that while Spinks was the lineal champ, Walcott was still the #1 contender. Spinks wasn't as old in years as Walcott, but he had other mars against him. He was only semi-active at that time (at one point, there was some question over whether he might be retired or not) and hadn't been fighting any legitimately ranked fighters - and in fact, appeared to be avoiding them, including Tyson himself. The last time he had fought a ranked fighter, Holmes, he escaped with a very questionable decision. He also showed up for the Tyson fight at a career high weight, which was at least 10 pounds over his ideal HW weight.

Its impressive and the end wa inevitable but Benvenuti should have continued as he slipped. So that could change the whole outcome of the fight and in turn the credit of the win

[red cobra]

So you kind of feel like Rocky beat Joe twice with the first KO?
Yes...physically the first time and mentally the second. An "ancient" 39 year old isn't supposed to bounce back from a thunderbolt like he was hit with in '52.

[red cobra]

Nino may have been somewhat preturbed at the towel being thrown in and the ref's acknowledgement of it in stopping the fight, but really, it was a blessing for him, as Monzon was beginning to really tee off on him, and was going to damage Nino much sooner than he did the first time. The stoppage really prolonged Benvenuti's life and preserved his brain for the golden years that he's enjoying today.

[GPater11093]

Nino may have been somewhat preturbed at the towel being thrown in and the ref's acknowledgement of it in stopping the fight, but really, it was a blessing for him, as Monzon was beginning to really tee off on him, and was going to damage Nino much sooner than he did the first time. The stoppage really prolonged Benvenuti's life and preserved his brain for the golden years that he's enjoying today.

fair enough just funny him kicking it out


actually i was speakng to Emile Griffith on Facebook and hes going over to visit Benvenuti in Italy in the next few months

right bck to topic

[TheGreatA]

I won't deny that Marciano deserves credit for KO'ing Walcott in one round. But saying he was "coming off" two wins over an ATG and a great performance against another ATG is rather misleading. The previous KO loss to Marciano was frightening, and as many have suggested, surely must have been on Walcott's mind when he fought Marciano the second time.

The two had gone to a 13 round war in their previous bout, and in the rematch Walcott could not even go a full round against Marciano. Closing in on 40 years of age he retired. That is basically the story of the fight for me, a credible KO over a credible opponent, but not the one Rocky had fought against in their first fight.

You may disagree with it.

[McGrain]

But saying he was "coming off" two wins over an ATG and a great performance against another ATG is rather misleading.

In what sense? It's absolutley acurate as far as I can see.

The previous KO loss to Marciano was frightening, and as many have suggested, surely must have been on Walcott's mind when he fought Marciano the second time.

Probably a fair point of view.

[TheGreatA]

In what sense? It's absolutley acurate as far as I can see.

It's as accurate as saying that Walcott was coming off a devastating knockout loss. Obviously not the full story.

[McGrain]

It's as accurate as saying that Walcott was coming off a devastating knockout loss. Obviously not the full story.


Well no contained statement is going to tell the full story of three epic fights. But Walcott was 3/2 going into Rocky two and against ATG heavies only, and he boxed beautifully in the loss.

[PetethePrince]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Rocky's best performance.

No way is Walcott going down. But it's said the first fight messed with his physique a bit. It's rumored he said before the II fight, "I did everything I could the first time and I still couldn't win." This of course, is probably speculation but it comes from Atlas on Marciano's Ringside.

It looks like Walcott blacked out. To me Walcott is serious for the rematch. Cautious, serious, and not faded nor shot. Was he better than the Walcott of the 1st fight? Probably not. Not sure how you can be with the effects you would get physically and most important mentally after a destructive KO like that. Still, nevertheless an underrated win.

Look at the footwork of Walcott at 1:55. Does that look like a shot, faded, or old man in that shot? Hell no.

That sneaky right uppercut was a big punch, and Walcott didn't see it. Great KO over a great HOF fighter.

[fists of fury]

Yes...physically the first time and mentally the second. An "ancient" 39 year old isn't supposed to bounce back from a thunderbolt like he was hit with in '52.

This is basically how I see it, despite arguments to the contrary.

However, I can see McGrain's point too...Jersey Joe fought a magnificent fight the first time round and hardly looked his years. The rematch was over so quickly it was hard to day if he was actually washed up. Going on his previous performance not too long before, there can be reasonable doubt as to whether he was.
A big punch was landed.
Jersey Joe did protest vehemently afterward. There is doubt as to whether he knew exactly what the count was...

...so I can see the counterpoint, and there is a case for it.

[hermeneut]

Thanks for the film of that fight.

Does it not seem that Walcott is very tentative when he finally stands up? He doesn't take a step, except for what appears to be a tiny baby step, and seems to be trying to find his equilibrium. His feet seem unnaturally close together and he wobbles a little.

Would it be fair to say he seems dazed although he does manage to get up?

I would say he was probably lucky the fight was ended. Yet, being the great fighter he was, I am sure he was unhappy with his performance. Though he did look a little gun shy during the first round. But who wouldn't be.

[PetethePrince]

Thanks for the film of that fight.

Does it not seem that Walcott is very tentative when he finally stands up? He doesn't take a step, except for what appears to be a tiny baby step, and seems to be trying to find his equilibrium. His feet seem unnaturally close together and he wobbles a little.

Would it be fair to say he seems dazed although he does manage to get up?

I would say he was probably lucky the fight was ended. Yet, being the great fighter he was, I am sure he was unhappy with his performance. Though he did look a little gun shy during the first round. But who wouldn't be.

It's a good point.

[Bummy Davis]

I think Joe just had a flashback after being decked...maybe he just wasn't prepared to deal with being hit hard anymore..like a sponge can only soak up just so much...I think his subconcious just kind of derailed him or something, because I don't think it was truly a "ko punch" that Rocky hit him with...then when he got up he put up a front of indignation to more or less save face from what was basically a "quit job"..a sort of horizontal presursor to Duran's "no mas".


True...memory of the previous war at his age and the fact that he suffered a brutal KO after a hellish 13 rds and to face that Pitbull again this time as Champ can have a discouraging affect on the subconcious mind

[Dempsey1238]

The count didnt seem fast imo.

[TheGreatA]

The count didnt seem fast imo.

It was faster than the usual count. It has been established that the average referee's count takes about 12-13 real seconds while the referee in the Marciano-Walcott fight counted for about 9 real seconds.

[Dempsey1238]

No one's perfect. But it sure was not a 7 count like Walcott claims.

9 or ten is right, 7 is too short base on the fight film.

[Dempsey1238]

Lets not forget, the Ref was also counting off of the time keeper of the knockdown.

[TheGreatA]

No one's perfect. But it sure was not a 7 count like Walcott claims.

9 or ten is right, 7 is too short base on the fight film.

It was certainly not 7 but Walcott later claimed he blacked out which is why he thought the referee only counted to 7.

I do think the referee should've just let Walcott up in order to avoid any controversy, unless Walcott would somehow go onto knock Marciano out of course...

[Dempsey1238]

It was certainly not 7 but Walcott later claimed he blacked out which is why he thought the referee only counted to 7.

I do think the referee should've just let Walcott up in order to avoid any controversy, unless Walcott would somehow go onto knock Marciano out of course...


Not sure on that, both the ref and the TIME KEEPER did counted ten.

I also dont think Walcott was in any great hurry, if you watch the film, Walcott had no complains, UNTIL Walcott's mananger was causing up a storm, once that happen, Walcott join in.

I think the ref did the right thing.

[TheGreatA]

Not sure on that, both the ref and the TIME KEEPER did counted ten.

I also dont think Walcott was in any great hurry, if you watch the film, Walcott had no complains, UNTIL Walcott's mananger was causing up a storm, once that happen, Walcott join in.

I think the ref did the right thing.

I wouldn't say he had no complaints. It's difficult to see on film whether he protests it or not.

[Dempsey1238]

I wouldn't say he had no complaints. It's difficult to see on film whether he protests it or not.


He didnt start protested until his manager started protested, than Walcott just join right in on the complains.

Its pretty clear on the film imo. Fast count, a 7 count, ete.

[Rubber Warrior]

It was fixed. Jack Ruby was the announcer. Even the round card girls were double parked.

[My2Sense]

I agree that Walcott may well have been "remembering" the effects of the first fight when he was dropped in the rematch. But I don't see how that's necessarily a reflection of his age, or why Marciano deserves less credit for the surprisingly quick KO. A guy could be KO'd at any age and then be intimidated, gun-shy, or whatnot in the rematch. If anything, I think that just warrants more credit for Marciano, for hitting hard enough to intimidate this guy before the fight even started.

[Rubber Warrior]

History shows us that Marciano was a great fighter. Looking back, Walcott was trumped by a guy that had him figured out and riding higher than ever with confidence, looking to put down an exclamation point.

Bottom line, an all-time great coming into his own lowered the boom.

[MrMarvel]

Walcott was one of those fighters who had his brains scrambled a lot. People don't act normal when their brains are scrambled. He was confused about what was happening, which means he wasn't fit to continue. He was lumbering around the ring trying to figure out what happened. What happened was this: as he was on five other ocassions, Walcott was ktfo.

[Rubber Warrior]

Walcott was one of those fighters who had his brains scrambled a lot. People don't act normal when their brains are scrambled. He was confused about what was happening, which means he wasn't fit to continue. He was lumbering around the ring trying to figure out what happened. What happened was this: as he was on five other ocassions, Walcott was ktfo.

I disagree. "KTFO" is not accurate. He got up, confused and "scrambled" as you pointed out. He was stopped, not "KTFO".

[MrMarvel]

I disagree. "KTFO" is not accurate. He got up, confused and "scrambled" as you pointed out. He was stopped, not "KTFO".

Yeah, I don't know if ktfo is accurate either. I guess I should have said he was ktfo of boxing.

[sallywinder]

walcott had great footwork. he didnt bounce like ali and waste all that energy. holyfield was capable of walcott style footwork, but he bounced a bit also. wacott was a great fighter to watch for conservation of movement. perhaps the best ever.

in the first fight, watching the lead up to that marciano right hand, and walcotts lack of movement or even awareness of it about to be thrown, has always made me suspicious of it. you could see rocky lining him up for a right hand for 3 or 4 seconds. a fighter of walcotts experience knew it was coming. he didnt try and avoid it, he just let it come.

something about that stank. i'll bet im not the first to say so.....

[lufcrazy]

Hmmmmm well I consider it a bit like this:

Rocky knocked out a man he'd already knocked out. Very impressive but not hugely surprising.

Tyson knocked out the man who was seen by some as the last legitimate challenger for him and mike absolutely wasted him.

Still the victory is under rated and hardly ever mentioned. I might begin to claim it as some sort of evidence towards rocky's greatness and see what responses I get.

Great victory. Contextually not as great as mike's but historically it's perhaps slightly better.

[PetethePrince]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Rocky's best performance.

No way is Walcott going down. But it's said the first fight messed with his physique a bit. It's rumored he said before the II fight, "I did everything I could the first time and I still couldn't win." This of course, is probably speculation but it comes from Atlas on Marciano's Ringside.

It looks like Walcott blacked out. To me Walcott is serious for the rematch. Cautious, serious, and not faded nor shot. Was he better than the Walcott of the 1st fight? Probably not. Not sure how you can be with the effects you would get physically and most important mentally after a destructive KO like that. Still, nevertheless an underrated win.

Look at the footwork of Walcott at 1:55. Does that look like a shot, faded, or old man in that shot? Hell no.

That sneaky right uppercut was a big punch, and Walcott didn't see it. Great KO over a great HOF fighter.

I must have been high when I wrote this.

[he grant]

What's there to say ... Rocky was in exceptional shape. He had the confidence that comes with brutally KOing the other guy ... he definitely hit Walcott, likely caught him cold and Joe was dazed enough to blow the count ...

Does anyone actually think Walcott was going to beat him anyway ? While possible a hell of a long shot as he was older, had absorbed a monster KO loss and Rocky was even better ...

[PowerPuncher]

Watched this again, Walcott is so much more gun shy, either can't pull the trigger or is fearful to let his hands go. He barely throws any rights so Marciano has no fear of throwing a big left hook. It was a fast count though but Walcott wasn't really up for it

[red cobra]

This was a precursor of Chuvalo-Quarry. Rocky decked Joe, who lost the count, simple as that. (Standing eight counts were not the rule then.)

It's too bad the rematch had to end like that, as it might have been another classic confrontation. Marciano does deserve credit for getting off to a fast start though.
That's pretty much the truth, come to think of it Duodenum! My father's side of the family was watching the fight in '53 on their "luxury Magnavox" and my grandmother went to the kitchen to get a beer and missed the knockout...she did get back in tgime to see Walcott sitting on the deck, looking like, in her words "a man who didn't want to get up when the alarm clock went off"...she told me this years later, lol. I've always thought that JJW's subconcious overruled his desire to get up and taste any more that Rocky was dishing out. Memories of that dark hole of unconsciousness for Jersey Joe.