BJ Penn is better than GSP p4p

[yesihavearm2]

....and nearly all other fights in fact.

Lets get into this, GSP is the best Welterweight in the world and in fact I think would smash Penn in a 3rd fight.

However,

GSP doesnt fight against fighters 20-40lbs heavier and bigger than him as BJ has, and still held his own.

GSP is a MUCH bigger man than Penn. In fact the size difference is comparable to that of Pac vs DLH, except Penn wasnt facing an old shot hero, he was facing a prime ATG in GSP. GSP would probably beat Penn 7-8 times out of time but that doesnt dispute the fact that Penn won the first fight IMO and even if you think he didnt the fact that it was close enough to dispute means that Penn fought a great fight against a much bigger elite opponenet and that is amazing.

Would GSP beat Silva - doubtful
Would Silva beat Machida - doubtful
Would Machida beat Fedor - doubtful

Penn did beat GSP once, or came close depending on what you think, and thats truly amazing.



PENN - best lightweight ever
GSP - best welter ever
SILVA - best middle ever
MACHIDA - could possibly be best LHW ever
fedor - best heavy ever


the p4p greats ^


But I believe Penn is up there at the top POUND FOR POUND.

[ishy]

Wrong forum :good

[yesihavearm2]

Wrong forum :good

Ah shit, stupid tabbed browsing.

That and the pub :rofl

Admin please move to MMA thankyou

[fleaman]

Take your gay porn somewhere else :good

[fleaman]

Prime Joyce Gracie does em all.

[rockandrollstar]

I was just thinking "I've never heard of any of these guys".

Take your bummer sport elsewhere please

;)

[Carnage]

Blasphemy, get it out of here!!!

[Tuffnutz]

BJ Penn and GSP would destroy Calzaghe, Froch and Hatton on the streets. :stir

[rockandrollstar]

BJ Penn and GSP would destroy Calzaghe, Froch and Hatton on the streets. :stir

Yeah take and down an alley and bum them big style. Ooh errr...

[Carnage]

BJ Penn and GSP would destroy Calzaghe, Froch and Hatton on the streets. :stir
This guys name is BJ Penn...:roll::roll:

[thedon]

Yes BJ Porn is better than Gay Sex Porn. At least i think thats what he said

[hit me HARDER]

You lot do know GSP's Mum is from Bradford. Nora St. Pierre.

It kinda belongs here.

[Dynamite Kid]

This guys name is BJ Penn...:roll::roll:

"BJ Penn" would make the guy in your avatar his bitch.

[radab]

Hes not better than GSP p4p

When he beat GSP GSP was nowhere near the fighter he is today

BJ has fought bigger guys, but then GSP beat Alves, and would beat a lot of middleweights

GSP is better p4p than ol' coconut head, but its close

[Wilhelm]

Penn's "victories" at higher weights come down to him beating Hughes. Big accomplishment sure, but it's one fight that has since been avenged. He fought Machinda in a very weird and boring match and then...what, Renzo Gracie? He's certainly ambitious, but who has he actually BEATEN at higher weights? He's never had to earn his title shots at welter, so we've never seen him campaign against guys like Fitch or Alves or Kos the way GSP has.

And no, he did not beat GSP in their first fight. Whether or not you think what happened to GSP's eye was from a poke or whatever, Penn did break his nose with that uppercut, and that's probably enough to give him the first round. If you watch it though, GSP lands quite a bit more with punches and leg kicks, so it's not the blow out round people make it out to be. After that, Penn does nothing to take either of the next two rounds. It's not anywhere close to the totally dominant performance that GSP put on him in their second fight, but he got the takedowns and threw the ground and pound and Penn didn't. I don't see how anyone can score either of the second two rounds for Penn unless they speak really slowly, have a great tan and are named Penn.

[cdnboxing]

Im a huge Pen fan but he hasnt cleaned out the LWs like GSP has cleaned out the WW division.

Penn most certainly will but he hasnt.

[Hawks28]

....and nearly all other fights in fact.

Lets get into this, GSP is the best Welterweight in the world and in fact I think would smash Penn in a 3rd fight.

However,

GSP doesnt fight against fighters 20-40lbs heavier and bigger than him as BJ has, and still held his own.

GSP is a MUCH bigger man than Penn. In fact the size difference is comparable to that of Pac vs DLH, except Penn wasnt facing an old shot hero, he was facing a prime ATG in GSP. GSP would probably beat Penn 7-8 times out of time but that doesnt dispute the fact that Penn won the first fight IMO and even if you think he didnt the fact that it was close enough to dispute means that Penn fought a great fight against a much bigger elite opponenet and that is amazing.

Would GSP beat Silva - doubtful
Would Silva beat Machida - doubtful
Would Machida beat Fedor - doubtful

Penn did beat GSP once, or came close depending on what you think, and thats truly amazing.



PENN - best lightweight ever
GSP - best welter ever
SILVA - best middle ever
MACHIDA - could possibly be best LHW ever
fedor - best heavy ever


the p4p greats ^


But I believe Penn is up there at the top POUND FOR POUND.

St. Pierre-Penn 1 was clearly a 2 rounds to 1 victory for St. Pierre. And the second fight cleared up anything we need to know in a comparison between bj and GSP. GSP is way better conditioned, a better strategist, a much better wrestler, a better overall striker, a stronger and more explosive fighter. And his resume is better than bj's. Not to take anything away from BJ, who I consider the best LW in the world, and p4p #5.

No bj did not beat GSP once. bj is and always will be 0-2 against GSP, and its about time his nuthuggers accepted that fact.

[Hawks28]

When he beat GSP GSP was nowhere near the fighter he is today



:lol:

[ufoalf]

This is a joke thread really. Penn has NOTHING on GSP, at ALL, nothing. Only Penn did better than GSP was he was a "young and fast bloomer". He blew his fuse so to say.
Not to take anything away from him but Penn didn't really advance that much in recent years(though still one of the best ever) while GSP is still getting better.

[Bokaj]

Of course a very strong case can be made for Penn ahead of GSP p4p. Actually I have him ahead. He has some accomplishements on higher weights which GSP hasn't and he has been totally dominant at LW while GSP got KO'd by Serra. That GSP is 2-0 against him doesn't count that much for me in a p4p sense since GSP is substantially bigger.

[BewareofDawg]

Uggh ok I'll take a stab at this. Here is what we know:

1. Penn, with the exception of some of his early fights (where I believe immaturity, cockiness and lack of motivation was the factor) has looked absolutely unbeatable at LW. He has finished the greatest lightweights in the world, and done it without putting himself in any real danger.

2. There are 5 fighters in the world who are head and heals above everybody else; Penn, GSP, Silva, Machida and Fedor. Penn is the smallest one, by far, but the only one to challenge two of them and take them both to decisions and even the rematch with GSP, Penn still made it 4 rounds when his corner threw in the towell, he wasn't stopped during the round.

2. GSP would beat Penn 9 out of 10 times and I'm sure they would all look like the rematch. He is much much stronger and more conditioned. Also, his strength and drastically developed ground and stand up game wears Penn down. You can see Penn was winded after the first round with him from stuffing the takedowns and fighitng in the clinch.

3. GSP has dominated every man he has ever faced, even the guys who have beat him or come close the first time (Serra, Hughes and Penn) were brutalized and embarrassed in the rematches.

4. GSP has, however, never challenged an elite fighter above his weight.

5. Penn's natural weight is 155lbs.

It is simple and obvious to put GSP ahead of him because a) GSP was so dominant in their rematch and b) GSP has been so dominant against the other WW's. But this is P4P and Penn has taken ALOT of undue criticism after his losses to Hughes and GSP. But until GSP steps up and fights Silva, hendo,Machida etc then we will never really know and be able to compare him fairly to BJ on a P4P level.

I give GSP the benefit of the doubt and keep him above BJ, but am very interested in seeing him try and win a fight when he doesn't have the size advantage, like Penn has done when he won the WW title from Hughes.

Fedor
Silva
GSP
Penn
Machida

[ufoalf]

Uggh ok I'll take a stab at this. Here is what we know:

1. Penn, with the exception of some of his early fights (where I believe immaturity, cockiness and lack of motivation was the factor) has looked absolutely unbeatable at LW. He has finished the greatest lightweights in the world, and done it without putting himself in any real danger.

2. There are 5 fighters in the world who are head and heals above everybody else; Penn, GSP, Silva, Machida and Fedor. Penn is the smallest one, by far, but the only one to challenge two of them and take them both to decisions and even the rematch with GSP, Penn still made it 4 rounds when his corner threw in the towell, he wasn't stopped during the round.

2. GSP would beat Penn 9 out of 10 times and I'm sure they would all look like the rematch. He is much much stronger and more conditioned. Also, his strength and drastically developed ground and stand up game wears Penn down. You can see Penn was winded after the first round with him from stuffing the takedowns and fighitng in the clinch.

3. GSP has dominated every man he has ever faced, even the guys who have beat him or come close the first time (Serra, Hughes and Penn) were brutalized and embarrassed in the rematches.

4. GSP has, however, never challenged an elite fighter above his weight.

5. Penn's natural weight is 155lbs.

It is simple and obvious to put GSP ahead of him because a) GSP was so dominant in their rematch and b) GSP has been so dominant against the other WW's. But this is P4P and Penn has taken ALOT of undue criticism after his losses to Hughes and GSP. But until GSP steps up and fights Silva, hendo,Machida etc then we will never really know and be able to compare him fairly to BJ on a P4P level.

I give GSP the benefit of the doubt and keep him above BJ, but am very interested in seeing him try and win a fight when he doesn't have the size advantage, like Penn has done when he won the WW title from Hughes.

Fedor
Silva
GSP
Penn
Machida

:dead

[cdnboxing]

This is a joke thread really. Penn has NOTHING on GSP, at ALL, nothing. Only Penn did better than GSP was he was a "young and fast bloomer". He blew his fuse so to say.
Not to take anything away from him but Penn didn't really advance that much in recent years(though still one of the best ever) while GSP is still getting better.

Actually thats not true at all. GSP beat Penn because of his size.

Penn is just as skilled and much more dominant than GSP is at their respective weights. Penn is a 155 fighter, simple as that. And hes incredible at that weight.

To say Penn hasnt advanced in recent years is outrageous. Hell, if anybody hasnt advanced its GSP, the guy wins fights with one method and cant ever finish them. Penn will beat you on the feet and destroy you on the ground.

Only reason GSP is ahead of Penn in P4P is because GSP has essentially cleaned out the entire division. Penn really hasnt stayed at LW for very long because hes ventured outside the division. GSP hasnt. At LW, Penn still has guys like Tyson Griffin, Gray Maynard, Frankie Edgar who are all top flight LWs to fight. However, none of them have any chance against Penn.

[Wilhelm]

Can we throw the stupid Machida/Penn fight out the window for fucksake? It was a carnival fight that didn't mean anything. Penn simply being in the ring with Machida four and a half years ago isn't anything like him actually challenging a champion light heavyweight.

Also, “GSP only beat Penn because of his size” is a bunch of crap. He showed superior quickness and range of techniques on the feet and once on the ground PASSED PENN’S GUARD AT WILL. How many times did Hughes pass Penn’s guard? Isn’t Hughes bigger than Penn? In terms of mma grappling technique (not just takedowns) GSP is way ahead of Penn. If GSP was closer to Penn’s size then he wouldn’t have totally owned him and ground him into the floor the way he did, but I didn’t see anything in the rematch that made me think he wouldn’t win anyway. When did Penn ever threaten with anything? It wasn’t like Fedor vs. Aoki where Fedor just shrugged everything off and powered out of it. GSP was never put in a position where Penn could do anything, and couldn’t even keep him in his guard, and then struggled to get back into guard.

[BewareofDawg]

:dead
Whats the problem dude? You don't think Machida belongs in the top 5, or you think he should be above Penn?

And to what you were saying with Penn having NOTHING on GSP, you're wrong. Penn is a better finisher, he's more tenacious and he has a better top game then GSP. Also he has heavier hands, and better reflexes.

GSP is a more diverse and dynamic striker, better wrestler, stronger and faster (although Penns hands are faster) and more athletic, with much better conditioning.

GSP is a pro athlete, Penn never made the transition and is still just a pro "fighter".

[BewareofDawg]

Can we throw the stupid Machida/Penn fight out the window for fucksake? It was a carnival fight that didn't mean anything. Penn simply being in the ring with Machida four and a half years ago isn't anything like him actually challenging a champion light heavyweight.

Also, “GSP only beat Penn because of his size” is a bunch of crap. He showed superior quickness and range of techniques on the feet and once on the ground PASSED PENN’S GUARD AT WILL. How many times did Hughes pass Penn’s guard? Isn’t Hughes bigger than Penn? In terms of mma grappling technique (not just takedowns) GSP is way ahead of Penn. If GSP was closer to Penn’s size then he wouldn’t have totally owned him and ground him into the floor the way he did, but I didn’t see anything in the rematch that made me think he wouldn’t win anyway. When did Penn ever threaten with anything? It wasn’t like Fedor vs. Aoki where Fedor just shrugged everything off and powered out of it. GSP was never put in a position where Penn could do anything, and couldn’t even keep him in his guard, and then struggled to get back into guard.
Nobody is saying GSP beat Penn strictly on size dude. But to say his size and natural strenght had nothing to do with it is very unfair and just wrong. I'm a huge fan of both and think of myself as neutral in this debate. It cannot be denied that GSP is MUCH bigger then Penn...
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

GSP also is GREAT. He is a great fucking fighter and any great fighter with such advantages over another will exploit them.

[cdnboxing]

Can we throw the stupid Machida/Penn fight out the window for fucksake? It was a carnival fight that didn't mean anything. Penn simply being in the ring with Machida four and a half years ago isn't anything like him actually challenging a champion light heavyweight.

Also, “GSP only beat Penn because of his size” is a bunch of crap. He showed superior quickness and range of techniques on the feet and once on the ground PASSED PENN’S GUARD AT WILL. How many times did Hughes pass Penn’s guard? Isn’t Hughes bigger than Penn? In terms of mma grappling technique (not just takedowns) GSP is way ahead of Penn. If GSP was closer to Penn’s size then he wouldn’t have totally owned him and ground him into the floor the way he did, but I didn’t see anything in the rematch that made me think he wouldn’t win anyway. When did Penn ever threaten with anything? It wasn’t like Fedor vs. Aoki where Fedor just shrugged everything off and powered out of it. GSP was never put in a position where Penn could do anything, and couldn’t even keep him in his guard, and then struggled to get back into guard.

He beat him based on size, reach, strength.

This is simply not up for debate. Strength plays a very important role in grappling, not to mention GSP was greased like a male stripper.

BJ penn took down Kenny Florian and submitted him in less than a minute. Penn takes down top notch grapplers and makes them look absolutely stupid and he finishes them off.

GSP couldnt finish off a wrestler in Fitch and a decent grappler in Alves.

GSP crushed Penn like I expected. But Penn was 167lbs, lethargic and was fighting a guy with over 20lbs on him not to mention the vast difference in strength.

Theres a reason why Penn looks alot sharper at LW. Its because hes lighter.

Theres a reason why Pavlik looks alot better at 160 than at 166 or 168. Its because hes at his ideal weight. The handspeed difference was significant in his fights at MW and SMW.

[cdnboxing]

Nobody is saying GSP beat Penn strictly on size dude. But to say his size and natural strenght had nothing to do with it is very unfair and just wrong. I'm a huge fan of both and think of myself as neutral in this debate. It cannot be denied that GSP is MUCH bigger then Penn...
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

GSP also is GREAT. He is a great fucking fighter and any great fighter with such advantages over another will exploit them.

Exactly not to mention, GSP probably gained another 15-20lbs after that weigh-in.

The difference in size between the TWO was MASSIVE. People need to understand that. It takes nothing away from GSP's win. GSP is fantastic but my god be realistic.

[ufoalf]

He beat Penn in every aspect. Quit fooling yourselves.

[BewareofDawg]

He beat Penn in every aspect. Quit fooling yourselves.
Ok fine. Nobody is debating that GSP beat Penn in every aspect. But if GSP fights Machida, I'm sure Machida would beat him in every aspect....but that doesn't mean he is P4P better. Same with if Anderson fights Fedor or Machida fights Fedor. Do you understand what P4P means?

[Beebs]

Well on one hand BJ hasn't lost at LW since Pulver, who was a legitimate world class fighter at the time; basically once he became the current BJ he has beat all comers, he absolutely destroyed Gomi.

On the other hand GSP has had a more talented crop of contenders to beat; Hughes, Fitch, and Alves are slightly better fighters than Florian and Stevenson; Sherk is certainly as good as GSP's challengers though.

So BJ has the fact that he has no bad losses at LW, he has no Matt Serra, no losses period once he became the #1 in the world, also tied in with that is that he has been #1 for far longer. GSP has the fact that the WW division is almost entirely centered in the UFC, so he has beaten a more talented group of fighters as a whole, although BJ did beat Gomi in Hawaii, which is really big given what Gomi did later.

They seem to have two entirely different ways of doing it, BJ the artist and GSP the machine, but they both look of a completly different class than the rest of their division; hard to call one more impressive than the other in terms of the eyeball test.

There's a lot of arguments either way; I think the main difference is GSP's loss and the relative saturation of WW talent in the UFC compared to the more spread out LW talent; I think it was always plainly obvious that BJ was the best LW in the world, but there's some talent out there.

They are certainly very close; both the absolute certain choice for the best in their weight class.

[Wilhelm]

He beat him based on size, reach, strength.

This is simply not up for debate. Strength plays a very important role in grappling,
Like I said, Hughes is stronger than Penn and he couldn’t go anything with Penn on the ground. Perhaps GSP is stronger than Hughes, but is he THAT MUCH stronger that he can go right through Penn’s guard based only on that strength? Of course not. GSP is more SKILLED and that’s what he used to pass Penn’s guard. You can’t just power out of someone’s guard and if you watch the fight you can see GSP using the same technique over and over.

not to mention GSP was greased like a male stripper.
Okay, so you’re not going to give GSP any credit. Thanks for just coming out and saying it.



BJ penn took down Kenny Florian and submitted him in less than a minute. Penn takes down top notch grapplers and makes them look absolutely stupid and he finishes them off.
Yeah, after TWENTY MINUTES. Don’t make it sound like he waltzed right up and subbed him.


GSP couldnt finish off a wrestler in Fitch and a decent grappler in Alves.
.
…and when did Penn finish off Fitch and Alves?



GSP crushed Penn like I expected. But Penn was 167lbs, lethargic and was fighting a guy with over 20lbs on him not to mention the vast difference in strength.
Excuses. LOL @ “Penn was lethargic”.

[MaliSlamusrex]

this thread should not be at the top.

its so stupid I am not going to leave an opinion.

[Popkins]

I'm not sure who is greater between Penn and GSP. GSP has been KTFO at his prime weight by a guy like Serra - that has never happened to Penn at his best weight. People automatically say GSP is better because he beat Penn convincingly second time out, but GSP is the bigger man. I think someone like Vitor Belfort would be too big, too strong, too explosive for GSP to handle (if GSP would ever actually move up and have a go at 185), but that doesn't mean Belfort is greater p4p. Penn went up and challenged the consensus no.1 at 170 (GSP), and was pulled out. Can you imagine what would happen if GSP did likewise and went up to challenge the consensus no.1 at 185? I think in the US you call it homicide.

[Wilhelm]

I'm not sure who is greater between Penn and GSP. GSP has been KTFO at his prime weight by a guy like Serra - that has never happened to Penn at his best weight. People automatically say GSP is better because he beat Penn convincingly second time out, but GSP is the bigger man. I think someone like Vitor Belfort would be too big, too strong, too explosive for GSP to handle (if GSP would ever actually move up and have a go at 185), but that doesn't mean Belfort is greater p4p. Penn went up and challenged the consensus no.1 at 170 (GSP), and was pulled out. Can you imagine what would happen if GSP did likewise and went up to challenge the consensus no.1 at 185? I think in the US you call it homicide.

Uh, this fight could easily happen and probably will once GSP runs out of contenders to beat at 170. I kind of wish he'd fight some contenders at 185 first before being handed a shot at Silva, but that's not usually how it works. In that fight I'd pick Silva based on how well he uses his range, but speed is one of Silva's biggest advantages over other 185 lbers and he wouldn't have such an advantage over GSP.

[Popkins]

Uh, this fight could easily happen and probably will once GSP runs out of contenders to beat at 170. I kind of wish he'd fight some contenders at 185 first before being handed a shot at Silva, but that's not usually how it works. In that fight I'd pick Silva based on how well he uses his range, but speed is one of Silva's biggest advantages over other 185 lbers and he wouldn't have such an advantage over GSP.

I think GSP is an amazing fighter, and I have a tiny shred of doubt about Silva being unbeatable at 185 (does Silva have a great chin?), but the size difference makes this a non-starter. Silva didn't look much smaller than a huge light-heavyweight like Forrest, whereas GSP was clearly smaller than the biggest welterweight, Alves. This fight would be very one-sided, Silva horrible KO.

Belfort has a much better chance of beating Silva because Belfort has the speed to catch Silva cleanly with a punch, and the power to maybe make it count. In saying that though, it's a small chance. I expect Silva to remain undefeated as long as he stays in the ufc, he is incredible.

[chimba]

I think GSP is an amazing fighter, and I have a tiny shred of doubt about Silva being unbeatable at 185 (does Silva have a great chin?), but the size difference makes this a non-starter. Silva didn't look much smaller than a huge light-heavyweight like Forrest, whereas GSP was clearly smaller than the biggest welterweight, Alves. This fight would be very one-sided, Silva horrible KO.

Belfort has a much better chance of beating Silva because Belfort has the speed to catch Silva cleanly with a punch, and the power to maybe make it count. In saying that though, it's a small chance. I expect Silva to remain undefeated as long as he stays in the ufc, he is incredible.


:lol: have you seen this man hurt?, the few times he gets hit flush he'll smile and then give you a couple of kicks to the head. Just ask Franklin

[ufoalf]

I think him, Machida and Fedor are top 3 least hit fighters. Fedor usually too busy dishing out to call him defensive though. I think it's safe to say that Silva can easily dominate GSP standing up.

[Popkins]

:lol: have you seen this man hurt?, the few times he gets hit flush he'll smile and then give you a couple of kicks to the head. Just ask Franklin

I'm not saying he has a weak chin at all, I'm just saying I haven't seen him taking bombs the way I have seen guys like Henderson take them. I am going to make a thread on this actually, as I'd like to know what people think about Anderson's chin. I am a boxing obsessive, but I'm not an MMA expert at all (far from it), so I like to read the opinions of more knowledgable mma fans. :good