Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

[Stevie G]

Apologies to MikeBrown for virtually plagarising his Foreman/Frazier thread :good This is another hypothetical fight where Joe would start as an underdog. We're talking the 1971 Joe Frazier v the 1988 Mike Tyson. Imo,although the odds would be stacked against Joe,it would n't be as cut and dried as it would against Foreman. I first present the case against Frazier beating Tyson. Joe was always a slow starter,and would soak up a lot of punches early on. This could spell disaster against an explosive starter like Tyson. It's quite feasible that Mike could unleash as much punishment on him as Foreman did,prompting the referee to save Frazier as early as the third or fourth round. Now the case for Joe beating Tyson. Tyson,although as explosive as Foreman,did n't have George's height and reach advantages over Frazier,so would have to come closer into Joe,thus putting him in range to take some punches in return. Supposing Tyson took enough punches from a hurt Frazier,to make him hesitate a little,letting Frazier come into the fight. It would then turn into a war of attrition. If that scenario occured,I could see Smokin'Joe stopping a discouraged Tyson in the latter stages of the fight.

[ramalinga]

Everything Joe does, Tyson does better: Better head movement for defense, more one - punch power. Joe had the heart and stamina but not the tools to defeat Tyson. Not having Foreman's height and reach isn't an issue, Tyson struggled with taller fighters who could box well like Tony Tucker. In a fight where he would be the slightly taller guy, he would be unstoppable.

[fists of fury]

He could, yes. I'd still make Tyson a big favourite to win though.

[McGrain]

I think Frazier has a very good chance actually. Tyson could be a little overstated in his movements, for example, head movement generated at the waist. Tyson's head movement is overated slightly IMO (though I agree he was better here than Frazier), he could be timed - but you would need ice in your veins. Guess what? Joe has that. Imagine him timing a bobbing Tyson with that left hook? Horrible.

However, it was a lengthy jab that tended to invoke Tyson's exaggerated movement and Joe doesn't have that.

Frazier thought he could win, for whatever that is worth.

[jaffay]

I won't say nothing new - Tyson KO in 1-5 or Frazier KO in 9-12

[Mr Butt]

as said frazier was a slow starter,so for me as long as frazier is not to damaged after the first round he has a good chance and as McGrain said if tyson moves on to a left hook he could well go .i am going for frazier's heart to give him the edge

[Quitali Bitchko]

Yes. But he wouldnt. :deal

[Quitali Bitchko]

I think Frazier has a very good chance actually. Tyson could be a little overstated in his movements, for example, head movement generated at the waist. Tyson's head movement is overated slightly IMO (though I agree he was better here than Frazier), he could be timed - but you would need ice in your veins. Guess what? Joe has that. Imagine him timing a bobbing Tyson with that left hook? Horrible.



I dont think so. Bruno, Lewis and Ruddock all had more power then Joe and all caught Tyson flush on so I dont think Joe could put Tyson in trouble with one left hook, no matter how good of a hooker Fraizer was.

[Quitali Bitchko]

no matter how good of a hooker Fraizer was.

I just read this back and I :lol: Came off kinda funny sounding.

[Unforgiven]

I rate Tyson highly but Frazier would beat Tyson up.

[Quitali Bitchko]

I rate Tyson highly but Frazier would beat Tyson up.

:rofl

[McGrain]

I dont think so. Bruno, Lewis and Ruddock all had more power then Joe and all caught Tyson flush on so I dont think Joe could put Tyson in trouble with one left hook, no matter how good of a hooker Fraizer was.


Lewis put Tyson in terrible trouble by hitting him. IN fact Tyson, after an excellent first round, looked already-beaten after Lewis tagged him mightily with uppercuts in that first round.

Bruno may have had more power than Frazier, but he did not hit more perfectly, nor did he have great accuracy or volume for any follow up, like Frazier did.

Finally, we are not just talking here about a perfect Joe Frazier hook but (hypotheticaly) the additional pressure per square inch generated by Tyson coming back into the blow full speed.

All in all i'm pretty happy with my surmise - horrible.

[lefthook31]

Lewis put Tyson in terrible trouble by hitting him. IN fact Tyson, after an excellent first round, looked already-beaten after Lewis tagged him mightily with uppercuts in that first round.

Bruno may have had more power than Frazier, but he did not hit more perfectly, nor did he have great accuracy or volume for any follow up, like Frazier did.

Finally, we are not just talking here about a perfect Joe Frazier hook but (hypotheticaly) the additional pressure per square inch generated by Tyson coming back into the blow full speed.

All in all i'm pretty happy with my surmise - horrible.
How can you use the Tyson that fought Lewis as an example? Do you think Lewis would have hit Tyson that cleanly in 88?

[mr. magoo]

I think its possible that a great fighter like Joe Frazier could have beaten Mike Tyson, but its probably not an outcome that I'd bet on.

[McGrain]

How can you use the Tyson that fought Lewis as an example? Do you think Lewis would have hit Tyson that cleanly in 88?


Please try and follow the thread

1 - My opinion is that Tyson could be timed, yes in his prime. Yes, this opinion has been expressed earlier in the thread.

2 - I didn't raise the issue of Lewis-Tyson. It was raised by another poster in regards to Tyson's punch resistance. My reply was as narrow as this point, I was at no time trying to match Prime Frazier with Lewis Tyson.

3 - There are absolutely things to be learned about fighters post-prime, in the case of the truly great ones, like Ali, sometimes there is more to be learned about them when they lose the edge from their core skills.

[KTFO]

Def wouldn't last more than 4 rounds. Anything possible.

[Jaws]

I see it similar to Foreman-Frazier. Frazier is a pressure fighter, Tyson is a bomber. Bad style matchup for Frazier. Prime Tyson had the speed, accuracy, and knockout power in both hands to make it work. Prime Frazier also weighed 205.....Tyson did very well against guys smaller than him. Prime Tyson has the chin and conditioning to take a lot of shots as well.

But to answer the question---there is always a chance. Especially with a fighter as great Frazier.

[round15]

Everything Joe does, Tyson does better: Better head movement for defense, more one - punch power. Joe had the heart and stamina but not the tools to defeat Tyson. Not having Foreman's height and reach isn't an issue, Tyson struggled with taller fighters who could box well like Tony Tucker. In a fight where he would be the slightly taller guy, he would be unstoppable.

Disagree with you ramalinga.

Tyson did not have better head movement than Frazier. Tyson was different than Frazier and used shoulder slips more on both sides. Frazier prefered to bob, weave and roll under punches, especially against people who tried to hook with him. Besides, Tyson's head movement stops after the middle rounds when fatigue sets in. Ruddock, Tucker, Holyfield and Lewis hit him easier as the fights developed. Tyson does have better one punch right handed power, there's no question about that. Joe's left hook, though was a deadly shot and what's forgotten is the fact that he was a converted southpaw.

[lefthook31]

Please try and follow the thread

1 - My opinion is that Tyson could be timed, yes in his prime. Yes, this opinion has been expressed earlier in the thread.

2 - I didn't raise the issue of Lewis-Tyson. It was raised by another poster in regards to Tyson's punch resistance. My reply was as narrow as this point, I was at no time trying to match Prime Frazier with Lewis Tyson.

3 - There are absolutely things to be learned about fighters post-prime, in the case of the truly great ones, like Ali, sometimes there is more to be learned about them when they lose the edge from their core skills.
Sorry I did read through it, just didnt see where it related to the other points. As far as timing, any fighter could be timed. I dont think too many fighters timed Tyson consistently in his prime. Possibly only a few examples, Tucker for sure with that uppercut, but you didnt see Tyson getting hit cleanly too much coming forward, and that was because of what, contrary to what some think, his underated head and upper body movement when he was younger.
As far as losing their edge from their core skills, you mean getting hit more and taking more punishment?:yep How much do they want to win as compared to collecting a check, and thats what you see in these guys who have respectable performances post prime. Tyson obviously lost his fighting gut, long before he retired.

[junior-soprano]

like the foreman-frazier thing i again have to say no.. unless............ joe survives the first 5 rounds he wins. but he doesn't survive the first 5 rounds.
reasons : it took joe a few rounds to start smokin and a prime mike is a notorious fast starter. second i don't think joe ever fought someone like mike...
sure ali was faster. but mike has much more strenght, and is also very fast. KO power in both hands. worked not just the head but also the body of his opponents. plus good defense

we all know mentally seen mike is weak but a prime mike vs prime frazier does not go past the fifth. to bad cause personally i would hope for joe but one has to be realistic

[round15]

like the foreman-frazier thing i again have to say no.. unless............ joe survives the first 5 rounds he wins. but he doesn't survive the first 5 rounds.
reasons : it took joe a few rounds to start smokin and a prime mike is a notorious fast starter. second i don't think joe ever fought someone like mike...
sure ali was faster. but mike has much more strenght, and is also very fast. KO power in both hands. worked not just the head but also the body of his opponents. plus good defense

we all know mentally seen mike is weak but a prime mike vs prime frazier does not go past the fifth. to bad cause personally i would hope for joe but one has to be realistic

Compared to Ali, anyone is a slow starter.

I will agree with you such that Frazier is a slow starter, but I doubt that Tyson would make it to round 9 against FOTC Joe Frazier. The pace that Frazier set against Ali was comparable to that of a middleweight fight.

Tyson has faster hands and his right hand power is significantly greater than Frazier's, but it's not like Frazier's right hand is absent which some on this forum have said. Tyson wouldn't be able to handle the pressure and body attack of 1967 - FOTC Joe Frazier, but I wouldn't bet against Tyson to KO the Jamaica version of Frazier, perhaps inside five rounds as opposed to the two round demolition by George Foreman.

[mcvey]

Apologies to MikeBrown for virtually plagarising his Foreman/Frazier thread :good This is another hypothetical fight where Joe would start as an underdog. We're talking the 1971 Joe Frazier v the 1988 Mike Tyson. Imo,although the odds would be stacked against Joe,it would n't be as cut and dried as it would against Foreman. I first present the case against Frazier beating Tyson. Joe was always a slow starter,and would soak up a lot of punches early on. This could spell disaster against an explosive starter like Tyson. It's quite feasible that Mike could unleash as much punishment on him as Foreman did,prompting the referee to save Frazier as early as the third or fourth round. Now the case for Joe beating Tyson. Tyson,although as explosive as Foreman,did n't have George's height and reach advantages over Frazier,so would have to come closer into Joe,thus putting him in range to take some punches in return. Supposing Tyson took enough punches from a hurt Frazier,to make him hesitate a little,letting Frazier come into the fight. It would then turn into a war of attrition. If that scenario occured,I could see Smokin'Joe stopping a discouraged Tyson in the latter stages of the fight.

I think Tyson wins this by stoppage inside 7 rds.

He had significantly faster hands ,better two handed power,took a better punch imo, and was bigger ,and stronger.

I dont see any area where Frazier has a substantial advantage,except maybe stamina,and heart ,but as he was a slow starter ,and Tyson came out like Dempsey , these plusses would not be a factor .

If Frazier could somehow survive into the late stages of the fight he has a shot ,but he wouldnt imo.
Frazier had more than his hands full with Bonavena who was a clubbing brawler,Joe couldnt drop him in two fights and Tyson is 3 times the fighter Oscar was.
Frazier wore you down with an accumulation of punches, he only faced one real big banger and got decapitated.
Tyson took the shots from bangers like Ruddock and Bruno,and even when past it, it took a lot of shots to finish him off.

[a05bf1aa]

I think Tyson would be the heavy favourite here. I feel he'd more than likely knock Frazier out in the first few rounds. If it happened to go beyond round four or five, Frazier's chances start to increase. However, I'd say Tyson would nail Frazier early and finish him as Mike was one of the best finishers of any era. I just think Frazier's swarming, come-forward style plays into the hands of a puncher of Tyson's calibre.

Tyson KO3.

[sauhund II]

When will you armchair pistoleros ever realize that NOBODY can go toe to toe with Tyson from the eighties, hell, even the nineties is almost suicide. Holyfield with a chin ten times of Frazier held and held, butted and held some more until he had a undertrained, unmotivated and rusty Tyson tired and finally got brave...........he did not go tit for tat from the beginning.

Tyson is all wrong for Frazier, Tiger tank against Sherman in a shootout at point blank range, lol, sorry, this is going to end a lot faster than the Foreman slaughters...............think Marvin.

A strong jab, size and tie up skills are the receipe for any form of success against Tyson. Frazier ain't got none of the above.

[IntentionalButt]

Holyfield with a chin ten times of Frazier

Calm down.

[Thread Stealer]

I'd give Frazier a roughly 30-35% chance of winning.

[sugarsean]

Frazier is a very slow starter and Mike was a very fast starter so the question here is if Fraizier can wheather the early barrage from Tyson. I believe he could , then the next question is wheather Tyson can handle Joe Frazier once he starts "Smokin" this for me is the bigger question because Tyson never won a fight were he was faced with someone that could take his shots and stand up to him and comeback with his own shots like in the Douglas and Holyfield fights ( although he did show a lot of heart and courage in both fights ) the fact of the matter is that whenever he was faced with adversity he lost so that has to go a against him when he is talked about in match ups like these.

this for me is a 50 - 50 fight but I'm gonna go with the guy that is more proven to be able to comeback and WIN when faced with adversity so my pick is.

"Smokin" Joe Frazier by 12 Rd stoppage

(with Frazier having to get up of the canvas a number of times in an absolute brutal back and forth fight)

[mcvey]

Frazier is a very slow starter and Mike was a very fast starter so the question here is if Fraizier can wheather the early barrage from Tyson. I believe he could , then the next question is wheather Tyson can handle Joe Frazier once he starts "Smokin" this for me is the bigger question because Tyson never won a fight were he was faced with someone that could take his shots and stand up to him and comeback with his own shots like in the Douglas and Holyfield fights ( although he did show a lot of heart and courage in both fights ) the fact of the matter is that whenever he was faced with adversity he lost so that has to go a against him when he is talked about in match ups like these.

this for me is a 50 - 50 fight but I'm gonna go with the guy that is more proven to be able to comeback and WIN when faced with adversity so my pick is.

"Smokin" Joe Frazier by 12 Rd stoppage

(with Frazier having to get up of the canvas a number of times in an absolute brutal back and forth fight)

When do you think Frazier came back and won after looking like losing?
Ruddock nailed Tyson with big shots ,and he walked through them.

[Mr Butt]

When do you think Frazier came back and won after looking like losing?
Ruddock nailed Tyson with big shots ,and he walked through them.


the only one that springs to mind for me is the first bonavena fight .i think frazier went down a few times in one of the early rounds .but i may be wrong

[sugarsean]

Oscar Bonavena ( down twice in the 2nd round ) Frazier got back up to win a 10 round decision.

Manuel Ramos stood 6' 3" and weighed 230 pounds and had a pulverizing right uppercut that Frazier walked through on his way to scoring a 2nd Round knockout.

Frazier stood up to the hardest punches Quarry ever landed and kept coming forward and wearing Quarry down. Joe repeated his performance more thoroughly five years later when they met a second time.

Ali hit Frazier with some of the swiftest combinations and hardest punches he ever hit any opponent with and did not knock him down. The only time Frazier was stopped by Ali was in the Manila fight. His eye was completely swollen shut and he was getting hit with punches he could not see.

Over the years many people have tryed to diminish Frazier's accomplishments because of the way he lost to Foreman. Foreman is not just another puncher. He came back and won the title at age 45 with a one-punch knockout.

[MrMarvel]

The problem is Frazier's slow starting, vulnerable chin, and Tyson's quick starts, speed, and power. Tyson would stop Frazier early.

[leverage]

Fat chance. Frazier would last no more than 2 rounds with tyson. He'd be right in range of tysons punches, having no place to go and not being able to consistently elude tysons punches. He'd duck right into them instead and double their already murderous impact. Terrible match-up for "smokin Joe".

[round15]

Oscar Bonavena ( down twice in the 2nd round ) Frazier got back up to win a 10 round decision.

Manuel Ramos stood 6' 3" and weighed 230 pounds and had a pulverizing right uppercut that Frazier walked through on his way to scoring a 2nd Round knockout.

Frazier stood up to the hardest punches Quarry ever landed and kept coming forward and wearing Quarry down. Joe repeated his performance more thoroughly five years later when they met a second time.

Ali hit Frazier with some of the swiftest combinations and hardest punches he ever hit any opponent with and did not knock him down. The only time Frazier was stopped by Ali was in the Manila fight. His eye was completely swollen shut and he was getting hit with punches he could not see.

Over the years many people have tryed to diminish Frazier's accomplishments because of the way he lost to Foreman. Foreman is not just another puncher. He came back and won the title at age 45 with a one-punch knockout.

Frazier get's disrespcted on this forum in potential matchups against big punchers because of exactly what happened in Jamaica against Foreman.

I believe Mike Tyson wouldn't have the easy fight many on this forum and in this thread have predicted against the Frazier of 1967-FOTC. Sure, Joe has been known to be vulnerable in his career in the early rounds, but we're not talking about the overweight, overconfident, out-of-shape version that lost his title to Foreman. If that version of Frazier is to be used in this discussion, then the real question in this thread should reflect whether Mike Tyson KOs the Frazier that George Foreman KO'd quicker than the two rounds in 1973.

Mike Tyson wouldn't hold up to the body attack, pressure and pace that a prime late 1960's Frazier would put on him. Tyson is more than capable of knocking down the prime version of Frazier once or twice early in the fight, but Joe would keep getting up and eventually stop Tyson inside round 10. Tyson doesn't have the immediate height and reach advantage that Foreman had, keeping Joe on the outside. In fact, Frazier is a little bit taller than Tyson and there's no comparison when it comes to overall stamina.

[rm36]

I would favor Tyson. But I think Joe has a good chance in this fight. Many people emphasize Tyson's problems with tall boxers, but I think shorter fighters may have been better picks against Tyson. When Tyson beats a tall boxer, it's usually because he's able to slip the jab so effectively and then bang to the body. But when he's got a shorter fighter, whose a smaller target, pressuring him, I think that fighter might be able to neutralize him. Tyson has short arms, but he needs room to really work his hands for power shots. I think if Joe pressured him and pushed him back while throwing shorter punches than Tyson, he might be able to really confuse Mike.

But, I would still bet on Tyson in this matchup.

[round15]

Fat chance. Frazier would last no more than 2 rounds with tyson. He'd be right in range of tysons punches, having no place to go and not being able to consistently elude tysons punches. He'd duck right into them instead and double their already murderous impact. Terrible match-up for "smokin Joe".

I'd bet on the Frazier who got knocked out by George Foreman in 1973 to last 3, maybe 4 rounds before Tyson knocks him out. Tyson doesn't KO 1973 Frazier inside two rounds like Foreman did.

Prime Joe Frazier, 1967 up to the FOTC, KO's Tyson before the bell sounds for round 8. Tyson would fall from the result of prime Frazier's pressure and body attack.

[mcvey]

the only one that springs to mind for me is the first bonavena fight .i think frazier went down a few times in one of the early rounds .but i may be wrong

Bonavena knocked Frazier down twice ,but Oscar was not a top league banger imo.Frazier only met one.

[mcvey]

Oscar Bonavena ( down twice in the 2nd round ) Frazier got back up to win a 10 round decision.

Manuel Ramos stood 6' 3" and weighed 230 pounds and had a pulverizing right uppercut that Frazier walked through on his way to scoring a 2nd Round knockout.

Frazier stood up to the hardest punches Quarry ever landed and kept coming forward and wearing Quarry down. Joe repeated his performance more thoroughly five years later when they met a second time.

Ali hit Frazier with some of the swiftest combinations and hardest punches he ever hit any opponent with and did not knock him down. The only time Frazier was stopped by Ali was in the Manila fight. His eye was completely swollen shut and he was getting hit with punches he could not see.

Over the years many people have tryed to diminish Frazier's accomplishments because of the way he lost to Foreman. Foreman is not just another puncher. He came back and won the title at age 45 with a one-punch knockout.

I'm sorry but this is rubbish,Quarry was not a top league puncher Floyd Patterson attested to that.

Bonavena was a clubbing puncher ,again not top league Frazier only met ONE top puncher ,and in two fights he lasted less than 7 rounds.

Manuel Ramos? He was an over hyped second rater, his best win was a decision over an on the slide Terrell, who had lost his last two fights..

Ramos NEVER kod a rated heavyweight he scaled 208lbs to Frazier's 203 1/2lbs.

Ramos was kod by Bonavena in 1 round by Chuvalo in 5rds,and ended with a 25wins 29 losses record,having been stopped 9 times ,he quit against Frazier
.He was on a par with the two disgraceful defences Frazier made against Stander[who Ramos drew with and lost to] ,and Daniels.Both unranked .Ramos drew with perrenial sparring partner George Scrap Iron Johnson,I am kind calling him a second rater.

[Boxed Ears]

COULD he? Of course! Would he likely do it? I wouldn't bet either way. BUT I give Frazier one real, certainly significant edge here, which is mentality. Frazier simply could not be bullied or frustrated and disheartened the way Tyson could. Frazier would have done everything he could as long as his body would allow and Tyson never would've backed him off or scared him. I can't say the same for even prime Tyson if he were faced with a man as vicious and relentless as Joe Frazier. I give Tyson pretty much any physical advantages. More strength, more speed, devastating with both hands-unlike Joe who was almost all left-, better reflexes even. Actually the only physical thing I think Frazier would have over Tyson is stamina. 15-round, trying to kill you in every round-style stamina. But the slow starter+straight forward method that so many people mention to be typical of Frazier very well might negate the edge I give him in stamina and psychology. I'd favor Tyson, but yes, I think Frazier COULD do it.

[Bummy Davis]

I give Frazier a fair shot, The Foreman fight was a less than prime Frazier with a swolen head and new found fame from the Ali fight. Frazier was starting to believe he was unbeatable. Fighting Foreman he met a puncher that would go head to head with him but could get to hit quicker. Frazier was not a strait down the pike puncher he was a hook guy and even though he throw then fast and in bunches, It was only ONE ARM and easily telegraghed...Foreman was there to be hit but with the one hand he was hard to beat and Foreman could hit Joe with no fear of a counter. It was the right hand that put Foreman down and hurt him in several fights_LYLE, ALI,YOUNG and Peralta was also effective with it. Tyson is a different type of fighter. I see Mike starting out fast and this is something Frazier would have to be aware of. Joe would have to give Mike and lot of upper body movement but he MUST let Tyson feel his power early. Tyson had the better chin but Frazier had the late power and Heart...Remember Joe still got up 6 times vs Foreman and he was not prime. Joe also dominated Bonavena and beat Quarry at his game and Foreman did NOT fight these 2 MEN. I could see Tyson KOing Frazier but I could also see Joe wearing Tyson down getting inside and slipping and bobbing and making a war out of it. If Frazier makes Mike feel his power may make Mike reluctant to Wild abandonment of defense and you could find a tired and hurt Tyson by the end of the 9th losing by a tko. Tyson was great, Frazier was great...we can not judge these men by one fight.....This is a superfight.

[Stevie G]

COULD he? Of course! Would he likely do it? I wouldn't bet either way. BUT I give Frazier one real, certainly significant edge here, which is mentality. Frazier simply could not be bullied or frustrated and disheartened the way Tyson could. Frazier would have done everything he could as long as his body would allow and Tyson never would've backed him off or scared him. I can't say the same for even prime Tyson if he were faced with a man as vicious and relentless as Joe Frazier. I give Tyson pretty much any physical advantages. More strength, more speed, devastating with both hands-unlike Joe who was almost all left-, better reflexes even. Actually the only physical thing I think Frazier would have over Tyson is stamina. 15-round, trying to kill you in every round-style stamina. But the slow starter+straight forward method that so many people mention to be typical of Frazier very well might negate the edge I give him in stamina and psychology. I'd favor Tyson, but yes, I think Frazier COULD do it.
Good post !

[Sister Sledge]

I dont think so. Bruno, Lewis and Ruddock all had more power then Joe and all caught Tyson flush on so I dont think Joe could put Tyson in trouble with one left hook, no matter how good of a hooker Fraizer was.

Bruno, Lewis and Ruddock were at least 20 pounds heavier than Joe in their primes and stronger. However, punch for punch, I think Joe's left hook was a bigger punch than any of the others threw. Joe got more of his body into it than the otheres.

[mcvey]

I give Frazier a fair shot, The Foreman fight was a less than prime Frazier with a swolen head and new found fame from the Ali fight. Frazier was starting to believe he was unbeatable. Fighting Foreman he met a puncher that would go head to head with him but could get to hit quicker. Frazier was not a strait down the pike puncher he was a hook guy and even though he throw then fast and in bunches, It was only ONE ARM and easily telegraghed...Foreman was there to be hit but with the one hand he was hard to beat and Foreman could hit Joe with no fear of a counter. It was the right hand that put Foreman down and hurt him in several fights_LYLE, ALI,YOUNG and Peralta was also effective with it. Tyson is a different type of fighter. I see Mike starting out fast and this is something Frazier would have to be aware of. Joe would have to give Mike and lot of upper body movement but he MUST let Tyson feel his power early. Tyson had the better chin but Frazier had the late power and Heart...Remember Joe still got up 6 times vs Foreman and he was not prime. Joe also dominated Bonavena and beat Quarry at his game and Foreman did NOT fight these 2 MEN. I could see Tyson KOing Frazier but I could also see Joe wearing Tyson down getting inside and slipping and bobbing and making a war out of it. If Frazier makes Mike feel his power may make Mike reluctant to Wild abandonment of defense and you could find a tired and hurt Tyson by the end of the 9th losing by a tko. Tyson was great, Frazier was great...we can not judge these men by one fight.....This is a superfight.
The fly in the ointment of your prognosis ,is that Frazier has to be able to take Tyson's bombs for nine rounds before he wears him down,an unlikely occurence imo.

[MURK20]

I can't see it. Tyson's power was just below Foreman's and he was far more skilled.

[round15]

I think Tyson wins this by stoppage inside 7 rds.

He had significantly faster hands ,better two handed power,took a better punch imo, and was bigger ,and stronger.

I dont see any area where Frazier has a substantial advantage,except maybe stamina,and heart ,but as he was a slow starter ,and Tyson came out like Dempsey , these plusses would not be a factor .

If Frazier could somehow survive into the late stages of the fight he has a shot ,but he wouldnt imo.
Frazier had more than his hands full with Bonavena who was a clubbing brawler,Joe couldnt drop him in two fights and Tyson is 3 times the fighter Oscar was.
Frazier wore you down with an accumulation of punches, he only faced one real big banger and got decapitated.
Tyson took the shots from bangers like Ruddock and Bruno,and even when past it, it took a lot of shots to finish him off.

As I've said before, anyone is a slow starter when compared to Ali.

Ali had his hands full with Bonavena for 15 rounds and was lucky to get a stoppage because the ref allowed him to hover over Bonavena, not keeping Ali in the neutral corner.

Tyson would certainly have his hands full with Bonavena too, and I doubt that it would be an easy fight for him. Bonavena's been down like any other fighter, but where in his career has he been blown out?

Regardles of who you think of as the big punchers or not, there's a huge difference like I've said between Joe Frazier 1967-pre FOTC and the Joe Frazier of 1973. People tend to put too much emphasis on Joe's performance against Foreman, and easily conclude that Tyson would beat Frazier the same way based on power, which I don't see. Prime Mike Tyson never moved his head as frequently to avoid punches while setting up his own like prime Joe Frazier did. Frazier was no pushover, was hard to hit , had strong legs and shoulders, and I don't think Tyson would be able to bully him around the ring wrestling style, albeit illegally like Foreman did.

[mcvey]

As I've said before, anyone is a slow starter when compared to Ali.

Ali had his hands full with Bonavena for 15 rounds and was lucky to get a stoppage because the ref allowed him to hover over Bonavena, not keeping Ali in the neutral corner.

Tyson would certainly have his hands full with Bonavena too, and I doubt that it would be an easy fight for him. Bonavena's been down like any other fighter, but where in his career has he been blown out?

Regardles of who you think of as the big punchers or not, there's a huge difference like I've said between Joe Frazier 1967-pre FOTC and the Joe Frazier of 1973. People tend to put too much emphasis on Joe's performance against Foreman, and easily conclude that Tyson would beat Frazier the same way based on power, which I don't see. Prime Mike Tyson never moved his head as frequently to avoid punches while setting up his own like prime Joe Frazier did. Frazier was no pushover, was hard to hit , had strong legs and shoulders, and I don't think Tyson would be able to bully him around the ring wrestling style, albeit illegally like Foreman did.

"Anyone is a slow starter ,compared to Ali" .When I first saw this statement ,I thought it was a mis print.
Ali scored two 1 round kos he was NOT a fast starter at all.
The Ali who fought Bonavena had 18 rounds of boxing in 4 years under his belt,how about you pick a prime Ali?
Ali was 29 when he came back from exile the same age as Frazier when he fought Foreman.
Tyson would maim Bonavena,he is superior in EVERY department.
Bonavena was dropped by moderate punchers like Ali,Folley and Ellis,Tyson would stiffen him like a board.
Frazier is TOTALLY unproven against big punchers,the ONLTY one he met used him as a yo yo.
Tyson met many big punchers some of whom his considerably harder than Frazier.
Tyson was faster,stronger,more durable,less apt to facial swelling ,had better power ,had two handed power,fought MANY big men who possesed power and stopped them Frazier did NOT.
If you think Frazier was hard to hit you should have a look at the post fight pics of his Ali fights ,he looks like he has stuck his head into a bees nest.
Ali is on record as stating Frazier was elatively easy to hit.
You are a big Frazier fan ,and thats fine, but it has coloured your objectivity.

[round15]

"Anyone is a slow starter ,compared to Ali" .When I first saw this statement ,I thought it was a mis print.
Ali scored two 1 round kos he was NOT a fast starter at all.
The Ali who fought Bonavena had 18 rounds of boxing in 4 years under his belt,how about you pick a prime Ali?
Ali was 29 when he came back from exile the same age as Frazier when he fought Foreman.
Tyson would maim Bonavena,he is superior in EVERY department.
Bonavena was dropped by moderate punchers like Ali,Folley and Ellis,Tyson would stiffen him like a board.
Frazier is TOTALLY unproven against big punchers,the ONLTY one he met used him as a yo yo.
Tyson met many big punchers some of whom his considerably harder than Frazier.
Tyson was faster,stronger,more durable,less apt to facial swelling ,had better power ,had two handed power,fought MANY big men who possesed power and stopped them Frazier did NOT.
If you think Frazier was hard to hit you should have a look at the post fight pics of his Ali fights ,he looks like he has stuck his head into a bees nest.
Ali is on record as stating Frazier was elatively easy to hit.
You are a big Frazier fan ,and thats fine, but it has coloured your objectivity.

There is no way that Tyson is more durable than Frazier. Tyson never went 15 rounds if I'm not mistaken and has nowhere near the stamina as Joe. As much as many think Tyson was a fast fighter, his pressure is nowhere near as quick attacking the oppoent as Frazier was. Tyson kept his hands high in very good guard position, but he never moved his head a frequently as Frazier to attack the opponent and make the opponent miss.

I will agree with you such that Frazier could be hit because he ate lots of jabs and some right hands in order to get inside and work the body. Yeah, Ali wasn't near his prime speed of his first title reign, but I'll conceed that Ali was a different fighter, tougher and stronger after his exile.

Yes McGrain, I am a Frazier fan, but most on this forum including yourself base most of your conclusions about Frazier losing to the majority of big punchers from the result of one fight, George Foreman 1973 which is wrong.

[mcvey]

There is no way that Tyson is more durable than Frazier. Tyson never went 15 rounds if I'm not mistaken and has nowhere near the stamina as Joe. As much as many think Tyson was a fast fighter, his pressure is nowhere near as quick attacking the oppoent as Frazier was. Tyson kept his hands high in very good guard position, but he never moved his head a frequently as Frazier to attack the opponent and make the opponent miss.

I will agree with you such that Frazier could be hit because he ate lots of jabs and some right hands in order to get inside and work the body. Yeah, Ali wasn't near his prime speed of his first title reign, but I'll conceed that Ali was a different fighter, tougher and stronger after his exile.

Yes McGrain, I am a Frazier fan, but most on this forum including yourself base most of your conclusions about Frazier losing to the majority of big punchers from the result of one fight, George Foreman 1973 which is wrong.
Tyson's chin is proven against BIG heavyweight bangers, Fraziers decidedly was NOT .Tyson never went 15rds because the distance was 12rds,that does not suggest he couldnt.
I base my concusions on Frazier on watching him from his early pro fights against the likes of Doyle,Bruce, Machen,Davis,Jones ,Wipperman ,Johnson,Chuvalo.Up to ,and through his top liner days.You assume too much.
I watched most of Frazier's fights and his wins over Mathis ,Bonavena ,Ellis , Foster,Quarry, are fresh in my memory,and not coloured by hindsight I saw them as they happened.
And in most cases bought the films of them on super 8mm.
I happen to think I am more qualified to talk on Frazier than you are.
By the way ,I am McVey.McGrain will not be very flattered by your mistake.

[round15]

Tyson's chin is proven against BIG heavyweight bangers, Fraziers decidedly was NOT .Tyson never went 15rds because the distance was 12rds,that does not suggest he couldnt.
I base my concusions on Frazier on watching him from his early pro fights against the likes of Doyle,Bruce, Machen,Davis,Jones ,Wipperman ,Johnson,Chuvalo.Up to ,and through his top liner days.You assume too much.
I watched most of Frazier's fights and his wins over Mathis ,Bonavena ,Ellis , Foster,Quarry, are fresh in my memory,and not coloured by hindsight I saw them as they happened.
And in most cases bought the films of them on super 8mm.
I happen to think I am more qualified to talk on Frazier than you are.
By the way ,I am McVey.McGrain will not be very flattered by your mistake.

Sorry mate, you probably are a little more versed about Joe than I am, but I base my conclusions on what I've seen fight wise, who I talked to as fighters and what they have said about each other in interviews. How does this make you more versed about Frazier than myself or anyone else on this forum?

Who's the better fighter, you McGrain or you McVey, no disrespect to either of you, honest mistakes do happen in mid-thought.

[mcvey]

Sorry mate, you probably are a little more versed about Joe than I am, but I base my conclusions on what I've seen fight wise, who I talked to as fighters and what they have said about each other in interviews. How does this make you more versed about Frazier than myself or anyone else on this forum?

Who's the better fighter, you McGrain or you McVey, no disrespect to either of you, honest mistakes do happen in mid-thought.

Im just telling you where my conclusions are drawn from,so you won't assume again, my opinion is based solely on Fraziers blow out by Foreman.
I don't consider myself superior to anyone on here [well maybe one].
McGrain is a fine poster I have no problem with you mixing us up, he might be a bit miffed however.:yep

[Bummy Davis]

The fly in the ointment of your prognosis ,is that Frazier has to be able to take Tyson's bombs for nine rounds before he wears him down,an unlikely occurence imo.


I am not saying Joe would win but if he let Tyson feel his power it may make him reluctant...What happens if Joe hurts Mike early, what would Mike do? The tide could change...I never thought Holyfield had a shot vs Mike, especially after watching him against Bobby Cyz in the fight before. It was not until the day of the fight and Evanders confidence that I said "I wonder"...This guy has faith that he will win". I wont count Joe out.

[mcvey]

I am not saying Joe would win but if he let Tyson feel his power it may make him reluctant...What happens if Joe hurts Mike early, what would Mike do? The tide could change...I never thought Holyfield had a shot vs Mike, especially after watching him against Bobby Cyz in the fight before. It was not until the day of the fight and Evanders confidence that I said "I wonder"...This guy has faith that he will win". I wont count Joe out.
Holyfield had a better chin than Frazier and was able to match Tyson physically .I dont think Frazier could take Tyson's power for more than half a fight and I think Tyson is stronger hit harder ,was more durable ,and had better two fisted power ,and hand speed,That forces me to conclude that Tyson stops him.Frazier's undoubted heart and stamina would not be a factor because he would be stopped before they could be utilised.imo.Tyson took shots from bigger punchers than Frazier and still kept coming .Frazier was not really a one punch banger ,two lefts from him had no visible effect on Foreman,and he needed a ton of them to stop Mathis and others.Contrast that with Tysons one punch blow out of Tubbs.

[turpinr]

mcvey
were do you rate holyfield among the top heavies

[zadfrak]

Gee===that's something you don't see very often; someone using a 1989 version of Tubbs as a reference. Perhaps the most important aspect of that fight was Don King offering another $50k for Tubbs to show up in shape. That's an excellent reference for all the out of shape guys to get some additional purse money.

Regarding the original post, anyone can be beaten on a given night, let alone against a terrific fighter. All a guy has to do is show up with his B game and all fighters do. And Tyson with his B game is a beatable fighter. So is Frazier.

[SpanishArcher]

Gee===that's something you don't see very often; someone using a 1989 version of Tubbs as a reference. Perhaps the most important aspect of that fight was Don King offering another $50k for Tubbs to show up in shape. That's an excellent reference for all the out of shape guys to get some additional purse money.



1988 not 1989. And Tubbs was always chubby. But that left was impressive, as was the left againts Berbick, as Rooney said ˙˙he knocked him out 3 times with one punch˙˙. lol. And in the Tubbs fight Mike showed some good infighting. Tubbs was a very good top contender.

[mcvey]

mcvey
were do you rate holyfield among the top heavies

Around the 11 /12 mark but I think you could probably make a case for no 10 if you were so inclined.

[McGrain]

Around the 11 /12 mark but I think you could probably make a case for no 10 if you were so inclined.

Bang on, 8-14 is his range, based upon criteria.

[PowerPuncher]

Anyone who picks Frazier either doesn't know boxing or has rose tinted wishfull glasses on. Tyson is outboxing, outspeeding and outpowering Joe and Frazier isnt going to pull his eat 2 shots to land 2 trick against Tyson he's getting knocked out

[turpinr]

the pro tyson movement will grow over the next 20 years .he just isn't appreciated at the moment.he was a scary fucker along the lines of liston and foreman.if you remember him when he burst on the scene with that lateral and head movement plus the right hand to the body and right uppercut/hook he was sensational.

[mcvey]

Gee===that's something you don't see very often; someone using a 1989 version of Tubbs as a reference. Perhaps the most important aspect of that fight was Don King offering another $50k for Tubbs to show up in shape. That's an excellent reference for all the out of shape guys to get some additional purse money.

Regarding the original post, anyone can be beaten on a given night, let alone against a terrific fighter. All a guy has to do is show up with his B game and all fighters do. And Tyson with his B game is a beatable fighter. So is Frazier.

Gee! Fancy attempting to correct my post and getting the year of the fight wrong?
The Tubbs Tyson fight was the 21st of March 1988.
Now ,to address your point ,if you have one.
I used the analogy between Tyson and Tubbs ,and Frazier and Mathis to illustrate the difference in one shot power between them.

Mathis, when he fought Frazier was unbeaten he had fought NOBODY,was not ranked and had no business fighting for any version of a title.
It took Frazier 11 rds of constant bombardment to wear Buster down enough to get the stoppage.

Tubbs when he fought Tyson was a ranked contender he had ,had 25 fights losing only one a split dec to another contender Tim Witherspoon.,among his wins were victories over contenders ,like.
Bonecrusher Smith,who held a version of the title at one stage.
Greg Page , ditto
Jimmy Young a long time contender.
Tubbs ,was kod with one shot,in a two round blow out,that lifted him off his feet and deposited him sideways.
Tubbs went another four years being stopped again and as late as 93 was still good enough to go the distance with Champion in waiting Riddick Bowe ,in fact many thought he won that fight
.Tubbs was still beating fringe contenders five years after Tyson destroyed him.
My summary is this ,that Tyson had the following advantages over Frazier.

Faster hands.
Quicker at closing the distance
More power
Two fisted power
Better chin [tried and tested]
Stronger
Bigger
Much more versatile with his punch choices and placement.

This means to me Tyson wins it and by stoppage.

I dont like Tyson as a man ,I think he is a shit ,just for the record.

By the way the Japanese put the cash incentive up for Tubbs, not King

This thread is not about fighters showing up with" their B games", it's about matching two men up in their prime.

Gee? Do people still say that in the States?

Gee Whitakers, thats an old Pat Boone song.
Are you a fan of the Walton's?
Only joking:lol:

[Shake]

mcvey, what are your thoughts on Tyson past the 6th round in a give-and-take affaire generally speaking?

[TheGreatA]

On paper it seems like a Tyson win, he is a fast starter with quicker hands and more KO power but Frazier has some keys to win here in my opinion.

First I'll bring up an interesting quote from George Chuvalo:

And Tyson. He’s a tough kid. He walks right in. He’s that kind of a guy. He’s got lots of balls too. I like Tyson. I’d like to meet Tyson and show him a couple of things. I could help Mike.

His problem is he doesn’t know how to fight on the inside. If you take a look at his fight with Buster Mathis, Jr., he exposed that. There’s a chi nk in the armor. He’s too straight up on the inside. If he ever pulled his right leg back, his whole upper body would be at a forty five degree angle. He’s have his head on the other guy’s chest. He’d be safe. The other guy would have no room for any leverage and Mike would have all the leverage. His stance works against him on the inside. He’s easy to push back and he can’t fight when he’s going backwards. But Mike is a helluva an athlete. He’s very quick, got great reflexes and punches like a bazooka. He’s the only guy out there in the heavyweights who can give you goosebumps.

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Of course these are Tyson's post-prison fights but how many opponents did he fight that tried to push him back in his prime? Not many.

Tyson found an opening for a big left hook early against Tubbs but Tubbs did interestingly try to battle it out on the inside with Tyson for a while and found some success:

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Could Frazier actually push Tyson back against the ropes? That'd be interesting.

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[Bummy Davis]

On paper it seems like a Tyson win, he is a fast starter with quicker hands and more KO power but Frazier has some keys to win here in my opinion.

First I'll bring up an interesting quote from George Chuvalo:



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Of course these are Tyson's post-prison fights but how many opponents did he fight that tried to push him back in his prime? Not many.

Tyson found an opening for a big left hook early against Tubbs but Tubbs did interestingly try to battle it out on the inside with Tyson for a while and found some success:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Could Frazier actually push Tyson back against the ropes? That'd be interesting.

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True, Tyson was not an inside fighter like Joe, I am suprised already how many on the classic dismiss this about Joe....Frazier fought some good punchers and held up in all but one and if you look at the bonavena and Chuvalo fight you can see how much he slipped for Foreman......Frazier is alive in this fight. I don't know if I would bet on anyone in this fight depending on the odds but for people to say Joe does not have a chance. I wonder why Frazier gets discounted so much

[mcvey]

mcvey, what are your thoughts on Tyson past the 6th round in a give-and-take affaire generally speaking?

I would still favour Tyson up to around the 10th round as he has more firepower and a better chin,but as the fight progresses ,so do Frazier's chances increase imo.
I think its academic really, because I don't think Frazier could weather too many rounds of the punches that Tyson threw

[lefthook31]

You watch the fight with Tubbs and its almost a perfect performance from Tyson. Tubbs was slick and had fast hands and Tyson boxed, was elusive threw combos and hurt Tubbs with rights, lefthooks and uppercuts. It's hard to imagine any fighter having an easy night with that Mike Tyson. It wasnt just Tyson overpowering an opponent, it was a quick systematic dismantling and it has nothing to do with being a Tyson fan but more of an admiration of how technically good Tyson was at his best.

[brownshell]

Tyson has the skills to beat Frazier. If they fought Frazier would KO Tyson. Tyson never knew how to fight under pressure. Uder pressure he would be. One punch or one Tyson combo would not be enough to stop Smokin' Joe.

[mcvey]

I think I know what Chuvalo means ,Tyson, like Patterson stands square on .
Tyson was obviously not prime for the Mathis fight he missed a lot of punches ,but when he found his range he punished Buster with uppercuts ,which does not bode well for Frazier.
The Mcneeley thing was a farce.
Against Tubbs, Tyson looked good ,Tubbs was better than Mathis Snr whom Frazier clubbed the shit out of before he finally succumbed in the 11th rd.Tyson only needed a great left hook to put Tubbs out in 2rds.

[BUDW]

Joe would take Tyson and school him,Joe pressures tyson backs him up and then its OVER.

[TheGreatA]

I think I know what Chuvalo means ,Tyson, like Patterson stands square on .
Tyson was obviously not prime for the Mathis fight he missed a lot of punches ,but when he found his range he punished Buster with uppercuts ,which does not bode well for Frazier.
The Mcneeley thing was a farce.
Against Tubbs, Tyson looked good ,Tubbs was better than Mathis Snr whom Frazier clubbed the shit out of before he finally succumbed in the 11th rd.Tyson only needed a great left hook to put Tubbs out in 2rds.

Then again Tyson didn't put away Tillis, Tucker, Smith, Green. The way Frazier worked over Buster Mathis reminds me of the way Tyson beat up Tyrell Biggs and Jose Ribalta.

[mcvey]

Then again Tyson didn't put away Tillis, Tucker, Smith, Green. The way Frazier worked over Buster Mathis reminds me of the way Tyson beat up Tyrell Biggs and Jose Ribalta.

Tyson was not yet the finished article against Tillis a cagey defensive boxer.
Tucker was 35-0 a holder of a version of the title and in his last two fights had beaten Buster Douglas by stoppage for the IBF title and before that James Broad for the USBA title,he was ranked no 2 or 3.
Buster Mathis,when he fought Frazier, was unranked, and untested, he had beat nobody.
Bone Crusher was likewise a belt holder ,and ranked highly he just fought to survive as did Mitch Green ,how many rounds do you think they won against Tyson?
Biggs was a ranked contender how many rounds did he win against Tyson?
Ribalta was a learning fight ,you might as well go back to Frazier against Mike Bruce or an ancient Eddie Machen ,there is no comparison between the examples you put forth imo.

[TheGreatA]

Tyson was not yet the finished article against Tillis a cagey defensive boxer.
Tucker was 35-0 a holder of a version of the title and in his last two fights had beaten Buster Douglas by stoppage for the IBF title and before that James Broad for the USBA title,he was ranked no 2 or 3.
Buster Mathis,when he fought Frazier, was unranked, and untested, he had beat nobody.
Bone Crusher was likewise a belt holder ,and ranked highly he just fought to survive as did Mitch Green ,how many rounds do you think they won against Tyson?
Biggs was a ranked contender how many rounds did he win against Tyson?
Ribalta was a learning fight ,you might as well go back to Frazier against Mike Bruce or an ancient Eddie Machen ,there is no comparison between the examples you put forth imo.

Tillis was also knocked out quite a few times. Young Tyson, who had already disposed of Jesse Ferguson, won a 6-4 type of a decision over an opponent who had lost 4 of his last 5 fights, with the sole win over a tomato can.

Mathis could have actually been the Olympic gold medalist instead of Frazier, whom he had beaten in the amateurs, if not for an injury which forced him to stay out of the Olympics. He was trained by Cus D'Amato and had at the very least beaten 22-1 Ron Marsh, Sonny Moore a fairly competent journeyman, Bob Stallings in his 4th pro fight, a decent opponent who once upset Earnie Shavers.

Biggs's record was a bit better but he mostly got the fight due to hype much like Mathis and never accomplished a thing afterwards. Mathis did go onto beat George Chuvalo.

Biggs did look fairly impressive in round one against Tyson but Tyson obviously took the fight over from that point onwards, much like Frazier took the fight over after the early rounds:

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Ribalta was a learning fight but Frazier vs Mathis was not? Mathis too fought onto survive at the end, much like Smith and Green, except he didn't survive. Frazier was having his 20th professional fight against a man whom he had previously been beaten by in the amateurs, and he avenged the "loss" in impressive fashion, by breaking down Mathis bit by bit. Comparable to Tyson vs Ribalta or the Biggs fight.

You might not understand my point but neither do I understand yours. Actually I don't think there's much of a point to this arguing. I only pointed out that while the Tubbs and Mathis fights can be compared, I guess for the physique of the two fighters, there are instances when Tyson too went the distance and looked less impressive in winning. It's about as relevant as comparing one of Frazier's better performances to Tyson's performances against Tillis, Ribalta, Green, as you said "learning fights".

[mcvey]

Tillis was also knocked out quite a few times. Young Tyson, who had already disposed of Jesse Ferguson, won a 6-4 type of a decision over an opponent who had lost 4 of his last 5 fights, with the sole win over a tomato can.

Mathis could have actually been the Olympic gold medalist instead of Frazier, whom he had beaten in the amateurs, if not for an injury which forced him to stay out of the Olympics. He was trained by Cus D'Amato and had at the very least beaten 22-1 Ron Marsh, Sonny Moore a fairly competent journeyman, Bob Stallings in his 4th pro fight, a decent opponent who once upset Earnie Shavers.

Biggs's record was a bit better but he mostly got the fight due to hype much like Mathis and never accomplished a thing afterwards. Mathis did go onto beat George Chuvalo.

Biggs did look fairly impressive in round one against Tyson but Tyson obviously took the fight over from that point onwards, much like Frazier took the fight over after the early rounds:

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Ribalta was a learning fight but Frazier vs Mathis was not? Mathis too fought onto survive at the end, much like Smith and Green, except he didn't survive. Frazier was having his 20th professional fight against a man whom he had previously been beaten by in the amateurs, and he avenged the "loss" in impressive fashion, by breaking down Mathis bit by bit. Comparable to Tyson vs Ribalta or the Biggs fight.

You might not understand my point but neither do I understand yours. Actually I don't think there's much of a point to this arguing. I only pointed out that while the Tubbs and Mathis fights can be compared, I guess for the physique of the two fighters, there are instances when Tyson too went the distance and looked less impressive in winning. It's about as relevant as comparing one of Frazier's better performances to Tyson's performances against Tillis, Ribalta, Green, as you said "learning fights".

Fair enough it's good to debate with you,,and to view the clips yu so kindly put up for us.:good

[Quick Cash]

Digging up footage of Tyson fighting Buster Mathis was relevant, but I have to agree with McVey.

I'm not discounting Frazier wicked doggedness in any way, but Mike has shown durability that should see him through this.

It would be rather easy, but I'll refrain from rehashing Tyson's alleged and oft-touted stylistic edge over Frazier. I think resorting to that is something of an empty tactic, really; one that's not been properly thought through. I don't believe Tyson holds any advantages in terms of pure styles.

The fact that both are not perfectly accustomed to fighting smaller opponents might make the fight unfold awkwardly. Joe, in particular, might struggle at landing body blows without taking heavy punishment in return.
Although, he is great up-close and Mike isn't.

What really swings it for me is Mike's greater bulk and tank-like build. Few can claim to be a more powerful puncher compared to George Foreman. Mike, though, has better composite skills and frightening power himself. I'm not necessarily of the opinion that Tyson will win via a total blowout (he will need rounds to adjust unlike Foreman), but when Mike does finally connect, the effects may potentially be more devastating.

[frankwornank]

Deep down where it really counts, Tyson was a front runner. If he thought you really had no fear of him and that you were super confident, Tyson lost his own confidence. That is why he could never beat an Ali, a Frazier or a Holyfield or Marciano. They were all too much for him. They didn't just pretend to believe in themselves, the really did and Tyson knew it.

[pugilist_boyd]

no,tyson in his prime-ko,s joe

[CF Gauss]

Oscar Bonavena ( down twice in the 2nd round ) Frazier got back up to win a 10 round decision.

Manuel Ramos stood 6' 3" and weighed 230 pounds and had a pulverizing right uppercut that Frazier walked through on his way to scoring a 2nd Round knockout.

Frazier stood up to the hardest punches Quarry ever landed and kept coming forward and wearing Quarry down. Joe repeated his performance more thoroughly five years later when they met a second time.

Ali hit Frazier with some of the swiftest combinations and hardest punches he ever hit any opponent with and did not knock him down. The only time Frazier was stopped by Ali was in the Manila fight. His eye was completely swollen shut and he was getting hit with punches he could not see.

Over the years many people have tryed to diminish Frazier's accomplishments because of the way he lost to Foreman. Foreman is not just another puncher. He came back and won the title at age 45 with a one-punch knockout.


Great post. I agree with this.

[rodney]

The Frazier who o'd Jimmy Ellis would ko Tyson.

[haglerforever]

great fight...frazier did start slow ,I think McGrain`s got it right.If Frazier

survives 3 rounds he wins the fight.Mike did not have the heart of Frazier

[laxpdx]

No, I don't think Frazier could win. A very entertaining slugfest-while it lasts. Joe would end up getting Smoked by the harder hitting Iron Mike. Tyson by KO in 4.

[Hydraulix]

I think Tyson wins this by stoppage inside 7 rds.

He had significantly faster hands ,better two handed power,took a better punch imo, and was bigger ,and stronger.

I dont see any area where Frazier has a substantial advantage,except maybe stamina,and heart ,but as he was a slow starter ,and Tyson came out like Dempsey , these plusses would not be a factor .

If Frazier could somehow survive into the late stages of the fight he has a shot ,but he wouldnt imo.
Frazier had more than his hands full with Bonavena who was a clubbing brawler,Joe couldnt drop him in two fights and Tyson is 3 times the fighter Oscar was.
Frazier wore you down with an accumulation of punches, he only faced one real big banger and got decapitated.
Tyson took the shots from bangers like Ruddock and Bruno,and even when past it, it took a lot of shots to finish him off.

Right on. You took the words right out of my mouth.

[Stevie G]

As I've said before,Frazier's only chance is not to get hurt too much in the early rounds,and take Tyson deep into the latter stages. Joe would stop Tyson,but it's far more likely that Tyson would jump on Frazier straight away,and ko him within three rounds.

[lolb]

I think he definitely has a chance against Tyson. If he keeps on top of Tyson and doesn't allow him the space to get his hooks and uppercuts off and frustrates him in the early part of the fight. This could lead Tyson into making mistakes and allow him to put his own left hook into action.

Tyson would definitely be favourite and I would fancy him to take care of business but Joe certainly has a chance. Prime Tyson when he was using his head movement and defensive skills to set up his attack, was pretty much the perfect fighter. I have always felt that to beat prime Tyson you needed a good jab to upset his approach and not allow him to get set. This is not a tactic Frazier employed.

I would take Tyson by ko in what would be a great war for as long as it lasted.