Arguello-Tyszu at 140lbs - who wins and how [Archive]

PowerPuncher

10-20-2009, 08:25 AM

Heres 1 I havent seen done before. Both lost to pressure fighters (Arguello the much better pressure fighter). Both dynamite punchers. Arguello the rangier Tyszu quite possibly stronger with explosive displays of strength such as a 250lb Clean and Jerk. Both brutal body punchers, accurate, Tyszu maybe faster, Arguello technically more solid. Tyszu's power is reknowned at 140lbs, Arguello seems to still be a brutal puncher but maybe a 140lber like Tyszu takes these shots.

I think I'd go with a Arguello late KO

cotto20

10-20-2009, 09:37 AM

Arguello stops kosta late! he hit harder, had the better tools and was the over all better fighter. I think tyszu would be shocked at arguello's punching power and body to body strength

bez

10-20-2009, 12:15 PM

Arguello isnt technically more solid.

Addie

10-20-2009, 12:26 PM

Arguello stops kosta late! he hit harder, had the better tools and was the over all better fighter. I think tyszu would be shocked at arguello's punching power and body to body strength

I'm not altogether certain that Arguello hit harder than a guy who was regularly destroying Light Welterweights.

As for the match-up, Alexis would have made an excellent 140lbs in my estimation. He seemed to maintain his snap, and his punching technique and ability to mix it up - body and head - never seemed to fade as he moved up in weight. Arguello is always described as someone with relatively slow hands- but this shouldn't be a problem against Tyszu - who isn't a mover, and who doesn't possess great hand speed either.

This fight is determined by who can take the better shot, and who can deliver their punches with more consistancy than the other. Alexis was more accurate, had better punching technique, proved his durability at this weight against one of the best 140 pounders to ever lace them up, and if he can rattle Pryor - I'd expect Tsyzu to be rattled or possibility stopped...late. Arguello excelled when put in front of a stationary target.

teeto

10-20-2009, 12:31 PM

Can i ipick Tszyu by stoppage?

Addie

10-20-2009, 12:36 PM

Can i ipick Tszyu by stoppage?

Sure, I just don't think Tszyu would stop Arguello, when a potentially drugged up Pryor just barely managed it himself. Pryor hit very hard, and had punchstats existed back then, I'm willing to bet Pryor threw close to 100 shots a round and that he landed about 50% of his overall power shots.

Alexis was tough as hell.

teeto

10-20-2009, 12:41 PM

Sure, I just don't think Tszyu would stop Arguello, when a potentially drugged up Pryor just barely managed it himself. Pryor hit very hard, and had punchstats existed back then, I'm willing to bet Pryor threw close to 100 shots a round and that he landed about 50% of his overall power shots.

Alexis was tough as hell.
Nar i'm just bored, i do think it's possible though, but like you say Alexis bangs hard even at this weight and with the stationary target who knows? I just always got the impression Tszyu gets written off sometimes, not by you though Addie, yours is a well balanced post. Obviously the marauding fightewr is the one we pick over Tszyu more often than not, and that's not Alexis outright, but the man was a fighter and warrior through and through so he could do it, just that it would be a major task imo.

Addie

10-20-2009, 12:49 PM

Nar i'm just bored, i do think it's possible though, but like you say Alexis bangs hard even at this weight and with the stationary target who knows? I just always got the impression Tszyu gets written off sometimes, not by you though Addie, yours is a well balanced post. Obviously the marauding fightewr is the one we pick over Tszyu more often than not, and that's not Alexis outright, but the man was a fighter and warrior through and through so he could do it, just that it would be a major task imo.

A lot of the more modern fighters get written off in the Classic Forum, but I think Alexis has a strong case for victory here. Tsyzu was good in many areas, but the thing that caused Alexis the most problems in his fight with Pryor was the hand speed of Pryor, his never ending stamina and punch output. Even despite all of that, Arguello still landed bombs and maintained competitive until the last second. Tsyzu wouldn't bring that sort of work rate and flurries to the table, making him more of a target for Alexis' shots - and who did Tsyzu ever face on the level of an Arguello? Nobody.

As a side note, Alexis would have probably become a 4 weight world champion if anyone other than Pryor was reigning at the top at the time. I think it just emphasizes how pointless belts are when you consider Alexis could have gone for one of the lesser champions at the time and now be considered a 4 weight world champion. Would it have made him any greater than he was? Not at all.

teeto

10-20-2009, 12:53 PM

A lot of the more modern fighters get written off in the Classic Forum, but I think Alexis has a strong case for victory here. Tsyzu was good in many areas, but the thing that caused Alexis the most problems in his fight with Pryor was the hand speed of Pryor, his never ending stamina and punch output. Even despite all of that, Arguello still landed bombs and maintained competitive until the last second. Tsyzu wouldn't bring that sort of work rate and flurries to the table, making him more of a target for Alexis' shots - and who did Tsyzu ever face on the level of an Arguello? Nobody.
Yeah you have a point, and let me be the first to reply to you with your new avatar!

I still don't want to rule out the quality technician that Tszyu is though, within his own stylistic boundaries that is admittedly. Arguello's clearly the better and greater fighter, Tszyu was the best light welter of his era and the stronger man if it means anything. I don't see an outright stylistic trump card for either man, meaning it likely is just a good fight where the better man on the night wins.

I'm off now Addie, later.

Sweet Pea

10-20-2009, 03:45 PM

I'll go with Arguello by late stoppage after being hurt early on, probably floored as well. Tszyu wasn't as durable as Pryor, and if he was constantly taking the kind of shots Arguello was landing, they'd have far more effect. Arguello's durability was proven time and again, and I think in a tear-up he'd get the better of Tszyu. I do think he'd be troubled a lot early on by Tszyu's constant pressure/power punching style, though. Would be a great fight, that's for sure.

Flea Man

10-20-2009, 06:41 PM

Addie

10-20-2009, 06:45 PM

What a fight this would be. Two fairly head on guys who had a fantastic right hand and good timing when throwing power shots. Tszyu on his best night possibly takes it, but I feel Arguello is the better ring general, and was very experienced yet still durable at this weight. Tszyu could definitely put some hard shots together and take Arguello out early but Arguellos ability to trade at mid-range and devastating variety of punches would keep Tszyu relatively smart in there. A few tentative and tactical rounds ensue between 5-9 but I feel Arguello would still be putting some massive shots together and would beat a solid and still dangerous Tszyu to a standstill around the 10th. What a fight!

I agree with everything other than Arguello ever being taken out early. If he gets destroyed at this weight, it would be off the cuff of many rounds of consistent punishment. Alexis was very durable, had a lot of heart, and Tyszu never knocked anybody out in the same stratosphere as an Alexis Arguello. Most likely, Tyszu would back off a bit the moment he feels the power of those perfectly thrown straight rights and uppercuts to the body.

If Pryor takes notice of those shots, and he did, they might just get Tyszu out of there.

GPater11093

10-20-2009, 06:47 PM

Can i ipick Tszyu by stoppage?

whats an ipick

is that like a virtual pick

Tin_Ribs

10-20-2009, 06:56 PM

Arguello looked faded to me at 140 in comparison to 135 and especially 130, although having had over 80 fights by the time he fought Pryor, one can hardly hold it against him.
This is a close fight; Tszyu gets written off a bit much for my liking at times. His problem here, other than being less durable than Pryor, would be his tendency to slow down in the championship rounds, Arguello's bread and butter. Still, he had the technical efficiency and precision power punching to seriously threaten this version of Arguello IMO.

rekcutnevets

10-20-2009, 09:56 PM

I think that Tyszu was a little stronger, and a better puncher, than Pryor. I don't think that Tyszu was able to throw as many hard shots over the course of a fight. Punch for punch Tyszu was more damaging. Fight for fight, the edge swings to Pryor.

It's an interesting match up. Tyszu usually fights a little more measured than Pryor, and this may allow him to land with more accuracy. Pryor's output may have kept him from taking more shots from Arguello.

I think that Tyszu is vulnerable to punches down the middle, and Arguello would exploit this. When I first saw this thread, I though Tyszu had a good chance. After thinking about it, he doesn't.

Arguello tko 10.

anarci

10-20-2009, 10:05 PM

I think everyone is pretty much on the right track on this fight. Id take Arguello by 11th round ko but I think Hed have to get up from the Canvas to do it. Arguello was slightly faded in this fight but still a great fighter. I see Arguello stopping him being slightly behind on points when he finishes Tszyu.

teeto

10-21-2009, 10:06 AM

whats an ipick

is that like a virtual pick

:lol:

Casamayor122

10-21-2009, 11:32 AM

Arguello hasn't done anything at 140 to be considered in the same league as Tszyu. Tszyu by TKO.

Addie

10-21-2009, 12:14 PM

Arguello hasn't done anything at 140 to be considered in the same league as Tszyu. Tszyu by TKO.

Boxing has always been a style game. Alexis showed enough in his demolition job over Kevin Rooney, and his 14 round war with one of the greatest 140lbs ever, Aaron Pryor, to suggest he'd be competitive and then some against Kosta Tyszu.

Casamayor122

10-21-2009, 12:34 PM

Boxing has always been a style game. Alexis showed enough in his demolition job over Kevin Rooney, and his 14 round war with one of the greatest 140lbs ever, Aaron Pryor, to suggest he'd be competitive and then some against Kosta Tyszu.

Kevin Rooney?

Exactly what has Arguello done at 140?

Addie

10-21-2009, 12:43 PM

Kevin Rooney?

Exactly what has Arguello done at 140?

Oh, I see. You're one of those posters who doesn't listen to a word someone says before replying. I just pointed out why I thought Alexis belongs in this discussion, he fought a better 140lbs fighter than Tsyzu and gave him his toughest fight. Alexis is outstanding in so many area's when it comes to his offense that you can't rule him out against anyone, even up at 140lbs - not his best weight.

If you want to ignore the 'styles make fights" cliche, tell me this. Who did Tsyzu fight and beat who combined the punching power, combination punching, and superior technique of Alexis Arguello? I'll answer it for you. He didn't, Tyszu reigned at 140lbs for a while and looked impressive, but he didn't have to contend with an Aaron Pryor or an Alexis Arguello. This is besides my initial point, but do I believe Alexis would have held a belt, and possibly reigned as the best during Tyszu reign? I think there's a possibility.

Casamayor122

10-21-2009, 01:17 PM

Oh, I see. You're one of those posters who doesn't listen to a word someone says before replying. I just pointed out why I thought Alexis belongs in this discussion, he fought a better 140lbs fighter than Tsyzu and gave him his toughest fight. Alexis is outstanding in so many area's when it comes to his offense that you can't rule him out against anyone, even up at 140lbs - not his best weight.

If you want to ignore the 'styles make fights" cliche, tell me this. Who did Tsyzu fight and beat who combined the punching power, combination punching, and superior technique of Alexis Arguello? I'll answer it for you. He didn't, Tyszu reigned at 140lbs for a while and looked impressive, but he didn't have to contend with an Aaron Pryor or an Alexis Arguello. This is besides my initial point, but do I believe Alexis would have held a belt, and possibly reigned as the best during Tyszu reign? I think there's a possibility.

Arguello gave Pryor his toughest fight? Try Gary Hinton. The fact is that he was knocked out twice at the weight and his only wins at 140 are against D level boxers. On what are you basing this supposition that he would have been the best jr. welterweight when the divison was the deepest in boxing?

Addie

10-21-2009, 01:25 PM

Arguello gave Pryor his toughest fight? Try Gary Hinton. The fact is that he was knocked out twice at the weight and his only wins at 140 are against D level boxers. On what are you basing this supposition that he would have been the best jr. welterweight when the divison was the deepest in boxing?

I think Pryor's career would soon become plagued with drug problems after the second win over Alexis Arguello. At that point in time, Alexis had given prime Pryor his toughest fight despite being relatively inexperienced up at Light Welterweight himself. It was an impressive performance, and the straight shots, power, punch resistance, stamina, and heart he displayed that night leads me to believe Alexis would be competitive with most 140lbs in history.

Tyszu was not much of a mover, he'd like to come forward and work his offense because he was confident in his ability to take fighters out there with one punch. Alexis was never sparked by a single punch, and Pryor perhaps landed 50% of his power shots and it still took him 14 rounds. Tyszu won't be landing that many shots because he doesn't have Pryors hand-speed or never-ending stamina. That makes him more of a target for Alexis' straight right and counter left hook, and Tyszu didn't have the punch resistance of Pryor either. It would be a competitive affair, believe that.

Bill Butcher

10-21-2009, 01:29 PM

Addie

10-21-2009, 01:32 PM

It took everything Pryor had to beat Arguello & he set a pace that enabled that to happen & it still took 14 rds, Tszyu cannot fight at that pace & he does not have the chin of Pryor either to take those lethal right hands as well as every other perfectly placed textbook punch that Alexis landed that night.

I think Arguello wins a close 12 rd decision or TKO`s Tszyu late on in a 15 rder, rd 14 probably.

Exactly. :good This dude seems to give Tyszu the benefit of the doubt purely because he achieved more at 140lbs than Alexis Arguello did. It doesn't work like that, especially when you have the ability of Arguello and his credentials at the lower weights to consider.

Casamayor122

10-21-2009, 01:47 PM

I think Pryor's career would soon become plagued with drug problems after the second win over Alexis Arguello. At that point in time, Alexis had given prime Pryor his toughest fight despite being relatively inexperienced up at Light Welterweight himself. It was an impressive performance, and the straight shots, power, punch resistance, stamina, and heart he displayed that night leads me to believe Alexis would be competitive with most 140lbs in history.

Tyszu was not much of a mover, he'd like to come forward and work his offense because he was confident in his ability to take fighters out there with one punch. Alexis was never sparked by a single punch, and Pryor perhaps landed 50% of his power shots and it still took him 14 rounds. Tyszu won't be landing that many shots because he doesn't have Pryors hand-speed or never-ending stamina. That makes him more of a target for Alexis' straight right and counter left hook, and Tyszu didn't have the punch resistance of Pryor either. It would be a competitive affair, believe that.

The question is how much power Arguello has at 140 and can't he take the power of an elite 140. You just can't make a case for him being a great 140-pounder on the basis of his two knockout loses to Pryor. Castillo for example looked great as a big 135-pounder but once he started to fight at 140 he struggled and looked average. Arguello is just not proven at 140 and I'm surprised that most people are picking him to stop Tszyu who fought his entire career at 140.

Bill Butcher

10-21-2009, 01:47 PM

Exactly. :good This dude seems to give Tyszu the benefit of the doubt purely because he achieved more at 140lbs than Alexis Arguello did. It doesn't work like that, especially when you have the ability of Arguello and his credentials at the lower weights to consider.

Tszyu was certainly the `greater` 140 lb fighter as Alexis only had about 3 fights there but on a H2H basis at 140, I dont think he was a `better` 140 lb fighter, the only other modern 140 lb champ that MIGHT have beat Arguello that night other than Pryor was Chavez & even thats a pick em fight.
As already said, Arguello is a teriffic champ rds fighter - a marathon runner - & nobody takes him out early so they will have to come thru that hell fire that Alexis brings to beat him, Pryor & Chavez had the make up to fight this way & prevail, I dont think it suits Tszyu to be in those kind of wars TBH.

Addie

10-21-2009, 01:59 PM

The question is how much power Arguello has at 140 and can't he take the power of an elite 140. You just can't make a case for him being a great 140-pounder on the basis of his two knockout loses to Pryor. Castillo for example looked great as a big 135-pounder but once he started to fight at 140 he struggled and looked average. Arguello is just not proven at 140 and I'm surprised that most people are picking him to stop Tszyu who fought his entire career at 140.

There are no questions that haven't already been answered regarding Alexis' ability to take "power of an elite at 140". He went 14 rounds with Aaron Pryor, who was throwing 100 shots a round and landing close to 50% of his power shots in the process. Alexis had a hell of a chin. I also think we saw the power of Arguello during his brief time at 140lbs, because not only did he spark a C level fighter with one shot, and Rooney was laid out flat, but he wobbled Pryor multiple times in their first fight. You don't hurt Pryor easily.

Pryor was successful because he had above average hand speed, above average punch resistance, and his stamina was on a different planet. Ask yourself this, does Tyszu match-up to Pryor in any of those areas? I don't think he does, personally. Bill Butcher is correct, Tyszu rates higher all-time at 140lbs than Alexis, that much is obvious, but fights are determined on styles - not on accomplishment.

Casamayor122

10-21-2009, 02:31 PM

Pryor was successful because he had above average hand speed, above average punch resistance, and his stamina was on a different planet. Ask yourself this, does Tyszu match-up to Pryor in any of those areas? I don't think he does, personally. Bill Butcher is correct, Tyszu rates higher all-time at 140lbs than Alexis, that much is obvious, but fights are determined on styles - not on accomplishment.

He does match-up against Pryor except for stamina (was Pryor clean?) and he is a better boxer and has more power than Pryor. Arguello has done nothing at 140 to suggest that he can beat Tszyu let alone stop him. Tszyu was a fighter who always fought bigger boxers than him at 140 while Arguello always fought smaller boxers. Go watch Arguello's war with the diminutive Boom Boom Mancini and tell me that Alexis can beat Tszyu. I don't think this fight will go the distance either. Tszyu TKO inside 10.

Addie

10-21-2009, 02:48 PM

He does match-up against Pryor except for stamina (was Pryor clean?) and he is a better boxer and has more power than Pryor.

Aaron Pryor had faster hands than Kosta Tyszu, and he could throw faster, harder combination's for more sustained periods of time. This is what ultimately won the fight for Pryor, but other than that, I think there's quite a few similarities between the two, which is why I'm making the comparison in the first place. Both fighters like to come forward, both fighters had outstanding knockout records, both fighters could take a good shot, only Pryor threw faster shots, harder shots, and kept the work rate without a let down in his prime.

Also, when Aaron Pryor boxed he was pretty damn impressive. Watch how he would circle Arguello, and flick out the jab in the middle rounds. Those jabs never failed to hit the target, and even Sugar Ray Leonard was very impressed by what he was seeing. Pryor could box, he was an outstanding amateur, ask Thomas Hearns, but he was most effective when he was overwhelming his opposition.

Tyszu and Pryor are comparable on the power front, there's not such a drastic difference that would suggest Alexis would be sleeping early.

Arguello has done nothing at 140 to suggest that he can beat Tszyu let alone stop him. Tszyu was a fighter who always fought bigger boxers than him at 140 while Arguello always fought smaller boxers. Go watch Arguello's war with the diminutive Boom Boom Mancini and tell me that Alexis can beat Tszyu. I don't think this fight will go the distance either. Tszyu TKO inside 10.

Arguello gave Pryor a hell of a fight, and Pryor was one of the more impressive 140lbs of recent times. Tyszu achieved a lot during his career, but he doesn't match up to Pryor in the key areas. Stamina? Pryor. Work rate? Pryor. Mobility? Pryor. Power is even a close shave, when you look at both guys KO ratios and who each fighter knocked out. Alexis would find the target more often against Tyszu because he's not a mover, and if you want to play that game, Phillips knocked his ass out so Alexis could too in my judgment. :good

Bill Butcher

10-21-2009, 04:35 PM

Aaron Pryor had faster hands than Kosta Tyszu, and he could throw faster, harder combination's for more sustained periods of time. This is what ultimately won the fight for Pryor, but other than that, I think there's quite a few similarities between the two, which is why I'm making the comparison in the first place. Both fighters like to come forward, both fighters had outstanding knockout records, both fighters could take a good shot, only Pryor threw faster shots, harder shots, and kept the work rate without a let down in his prime.

Also, when Aaron Pryor boxed he was pretty damn impressive. Watch how he would circle Arguello, and flick out the jab in the middle rounds. Those jabs never failed to hit the target, and even Sugar Ray Leonard was very impressed by what he was seeing. Pryor could box, he was an outstanding amateur, ask Thomas Hearns, but he was most effective when he was overwhelming his opposition.

Tyszu and Pryor are comparable on the power front, there's not such a drastic difference that would suggest Alexis would be sleeping early.

Arguello gave Pryor a hell of a fight, and Pryor was one of the more impressive 140lbs of recent times. Tyszu achieved a lot during his career, but he doesn't match up to Pryor in the key areas. Stamina? Pryor. Work rate? Pryor. Mobility? Pryor. Power is even a close shave, when you look at both guys KO ratios and who each fighter knocked out. Alexis would find the target more often against Tyszu because he's not a mover, and if you want to play that game, Phillips knocked his ass out so Alexis could too in my judgment. :good

I agree with all of the post but especially the highlighted parts, those parts are just about guaranteed.

GPater11093

10-21-2009, 05:15 PM

I like Alexis here by late KO

Kostya is not a mover more a boxer-puncher and while not exactly face first he will be in punching range for Arguello who is deadly accurate. Also AA has a proven chin Kostya can fade late and against arguello a big no-no and those body shots will only quicken it.

Tszyu has some sucess landing those big rights on Arguello but generally gets out-punched IMO and countered well.