Jack Dempsey - weak chin?

[Maxmomer]

Let's evaluate

He was knocked out in the first round by a past prime Fireman Jim Flynn when he was only about a year away from entering his prime

Of the heaviest punchers he faced (Willard, Firpo, Fulton, Brennan) two never had a chance to land anything significant. Firpo floored him twice and had he not been such a wild and inaccurate puncher might have been able to finish him and Brennan had him hurt in their second fight but hesitated to follow up.

He was also hurt by guys who weren't and aren't thought of as big punchers like Tunney, Sharkey and Carpentier. Tunney dropped him near the end of their second fight, though Dempsey was past his prime and had been absorbing punishment for several rounds. Sharkey hurt a past prime Dempsey early, though Sharkey did show good power on occasion. Carpentier was small, and was only really a fair puncher even for a LHW and he had Dempsey momentarily shaken up in their fight.

So, as far at ATG heavyweights go, did Dempsey have a sub-par chin?

[My2Sense]

Firpo floored him twice and had he not been such a wild and inaccurate puncher might have been able to finish him and Brennan had him hurt in their second fight but hesitated to follow up.

If you're acknowledging them both as heavy punchers, why should this be indicative of a weak chin?

He was also hurt by guys who weren't and aren't thought of as big punchers like Tunney, Sharkey and Carpentier.

Tunney and Carpentier were both thought of as big punchers. Tunney was widely praised for his impressive KOs of Tommy Gibbons and Bartley Madden, both of whom were thought of as impossible to KO. Carpentier had KO'd another "unknockoutable" fighter in Battling Levinsky and twice KO'd European HW champ Joe Beckett in 1 round.

Tunney dropped him near the end of their second fight, though Dempsey was past his prime and had been absorbing punishment for several rounds.

I think that answers your question right there.

[Maxmomer]

If you're acknowledging them both as heavy punchers, why should this be indicative of a weak chin?

Because I think one of the basic marks of a good chin is taking big punches from big punchers and showing little/no ill effects. It seems as though Dempsey was noticeably hurt every time he took a good punch from someone with power. Brennan wasn't even that good of a puncher by all-time standards but he still hurt Dempsey badly.



Tunney and Carpentier were both thought of as big punchers. Tunney was widely praised for his impressive KOs of Tommy Gibbons and Bartley Madden, both of whom were thought of as impossible to KO. Carpentier had KO'd another "unknockoutable" fighter in Battling Levinsky and twice KO'd European HW champ Joe Beckett in 1 round.Was Tunney commonly considered a powerful puncher in his time? His stoppages of Madden and Gibbons are both impressive, but were they due to power or speed, accuracy and accumulation? Carpentier was a good puncher for a LHW, but Dempsey was a heavyweight and he still got rattled by a man much smaller than him who wasn't even an ATG puncher for his naturally lower weightclass. What other great heavyweights can you see being hurt by Carpentier?

I want to be clear that I by no means believe Dempsey had a bad chin for his size, but held to the standards of other ATG heavyweights would it be considered below average?

[ChrisPontius]

The Flynn KO and the fact that he did not face that many big hitters (or took their shots well) doesn't bode that well for him, but the Flynn fight is the only one he didn't finish on his feet. His chin seems to be good not great.

[McGrain]

He's got an excellent chin. See Firpo.

[turpinr]

i'm no dempsey fan but i've read a few times that the flynn defeat was fixed

[Maxmomer]

He's got an excellent chin. See Firpo.

The Firpo fight certainly showcased Dempsey's recuperative abilities, heart and ability to fight hurt, but does it prove he has an excellent chin? Any other examples?

[Maxmomer]

i'm no dempsey fan but i've read a few times that the flynn defeat was fixed

A while ago there was a thread presenting evidence that seemed to indicate that it was legit.

[turpinr]

as i said i'm not a dempsey fan so a i'm not bothered either way but i don't think he had a weak chin.

[SpanishArcher]

Not a weak chin. Not granite either. Good solid beard.

[McGrain]

The Firpo fight certainly showcased Dempsey's recuperative abilities, heart and ability to fight hurt, but does it prove he has an excellent chin?

See, I think that's an example of great punch resistance. Taking bombs from a huge puncher and climbing of the deck (and back into the ring) and taking the boy out. Good, tide turning chin/heart combo. The bottom line is, he would take some banging out, and he would be dangerous until "10".

Not a top HW chin, but not a guy you want to wound, either.

[mcvey]

Let's evaluate

He was knocked out in the first round by a past prime Fireman Jim Flynn when he was only about a year away from entering his prime

Of the heaviest punchers he faced (Willard, Firpo, Fulton, Brennan) two never had a chance to land anything significant. Firpo floored him twice and had he not been such a wild and inaccurate puncher might have been able to finish him and Brennan had him hurt in their second fight but hesitated to follow up.

He was also hurt by guys who weren't and aren't thought of as big punchers like Tunney, Sharkey and Carpentier. Tunney dropped him near the end of their second fight, though Dempsey was past his prime and had been absorbing punishment for several rounds. Sharkey hurt a past prime Dempsey early, though Sharkey did show good power on occasion. Carpentier was small, and was only really a fair puncher even for a LHW and he had Dempsey momentarily shaken up in their fight.

So, as far at ATG heavyweights go, did Dempsey have a sub-par chin?

Remind me ,how many times was Dempsey kod?The answer, is your answer.

[Mendoza]

Not a weak chin. Not granite either. Good solid beard.

This is how I see it. Dempsey had what, only 1 Ko loss on 60+ fights,

[PowerPuncher]

Its a combination of that and being a face first brawler with an open defense and over eagerness to lunge in leave himself open will mean hes open to big big punches. Against bigger ATG punchers he'd likely get ko'd. His susceptability to being outboxed is also a problem.

[Boxed Ears]

At first I thought this was a troll thread that had no substance. I can see that it's not, although I don't agree with you. Fluke knockouts and knockdowns happen. George Foreman was knocked out only once by a guy who wasn't even close to the biggest hitter he faced-including the ones he faced in his forties! And he was knocked down by Jimmy Young who stopped only eleven opponents in 56 fights. I say for one of the most aggressive champs in the history of the HW division with at least 77 fights in his career = damn good chin. Maybe great, considering the aggressive style.

[he grant]

Maxmomer: THis is a very fair, well written question:

I think Dempsey had a B+++/ A -- chin with A + recooperative powers and an A ++ fighting heart. Firpo was a killer and Jack took his bombs. By Jacks own admittence he had been down many times early in his career but he always, except possibly against Flynn, got up ... He was stung by Carpienter and roared right back. Brennan was a very good 200 pound puncher, Sharkey could swat when he planted himself and tried. Against Tunney he was exhausted and off balance just as much as from a punch and he was up in a second ... However, could he handle a first round blizt by a Tyson ? I doubt it. I hate to say it but with his style I can see a Marvis Frazier ending ...

[janitor]

His chin was among the better ones in heavyweight history but it ocasionaly gets a bit oversold due to his recuperative powers and ability to fight while hurt.

If you take the Firpo fight as an example I don't thing many if any heavyweight champions would have clawed the fight back if they were in that much of a fog.

[he grant]

Keep his style in mind ... like a Frazier or Marciano he was almost always coming forward .. he was exposed to full force shots opposed to an Ali or Holmes who rarely absorbed such shots ...

[guilalah]

Solid chin.

If we're judging him against a standard of people who can take clean shots from heavy without visible effect -- who, exactly, meets that standard?

[PetethePrince]

His chin was among the better ones in heavyweight history but it ocasionaly gets a bit oversold due to his recuperative powers and ability to fight while hurt.

If you take the Firpo fight as an example I don't thing many if any heavyweight champions would have clawed the fight back if they were in that much of a fog.

Bingo

Can't believe Hegrant admits it's largely Dempsey's recuperative powers and heart. I basically have been saying what the OP said all along. I think Dempsey's durability in general gets overstated.

[Maxmomer]

Bingo

Can't believe Hegrant admits it's largely Dempsey's recuperative powers and heart. I basically have been saying what the OP said all along. I think Dempsey's durability in general gets overstated.

I don't think his overall durability is overrated, but his chin might be by some. His heart and general toughness were second to none, but he could be shaken up by a good shot to the chin.

[he grant]

A B ++/A-- chin is still pretty excellent.

[My2Sense]

Because I think one of the basic marks of a good chin is taking big punches from big punchers and showing little/no ill effects.

That's a ultra strict definition of a "good chin". By that standard, the only fighters with good chins would be ones like LaMotta or Chuvalo.

[Zakman]

That's a ultra strict definition of a "good chin". By that standard, the only fighters with good chins would be ones like LaMotta or Chuvalo.

It should be defined strictly. Most fighters have less than perfect chins.

[Maxmomer]

That's a ultra strict definition of a "good chin". By that standard, the only fighters with good chins would be ones like LaMotta or Chuvalo.

You're right, my point was that it seems that Dempsey was hurt when he was caught with a good punch more often than many other ATG's. Guys like Ali, Liston, Marciano even Lennox Lewis were all able to walk through big shots without being too badly affected. Dempsey seems to get hurt more often and by weaker punchers than other great heavyweights.