Jim Jeffries -vs- Riddick Bowe

[Holmes' Jab]

... 15 rounds, prime-for-prime. Who takes it? :think

[ChrisPontius]

If by 15 rounds you mean the ruleset that was basically used through the 30's-80's, then i think Bowe wins it comfortably. He has a much more modern style whereas in Jeffries' day, gloved boxing was primitive. It was more half wrestling half one-punch-at-a-time, courtesy of years of bareknuckle boxing.

On top of that, he'd probably complain about not having a middleweight in front of him whom he could easily bull around.

[Holmes' Jab]

I think it's a close call. We're obviously talking about the version of Bowe from the Holyfield trilogy, not the fighter who got battered twice against Golota.

An early 90's Holyfield doesn't possess the same concussive power level of Jeffries (who for the record I'd rate just below Liston, Foreman, Lewis and Tyson) and yet he managed to shake/hurt Riddick on numerous occasions over the course of their three fights.

Jeffries could hang there with Bowe and slug given his sturdy chin and would probably hold his own successfully enough during the clinches. He was as durable a HW as they come, possessed immense mental toughness and was a superb counterpuncher with power in both hands- an expert at breaking up/blocking an opponents jab.

Bowe at his best as an inside fighter and Jeffries usually liked opponents to come towards him- in his efforts to do this, Bowe would be eating counters all night long. Given Jeffries power and Bowe's porous defense (even at his very best)- this may well prove the deciding factor in the fight (Jeffries making Bowe fight his fight). He mightn't stop Bowe but I can see him edging a close decision with superior workrate down the stretch. Bowe at his best is a very 'live' threat in this matchup, but I just see him getting tagged a little too often for me to favour him.

Jeffries CloseUD15 Bowe

[C. M. Clay II]

Bowe would keep Jeff at bay and box from the outside. Jeffries would have his moments, but Riddick would come away with a points win.:good

[mcvey]

... 15 rounds, prime-for-prime. Who takes it? :think
It would be an interesting fight and tell us a lot about Jeffries ,for the first time he would not have a big size and weight advantage over a challenger,Bowe at his best was a very good inside fighter ,probably the best of the big men,he had a good jab decent power in his right,and could take a shot,the edge in durability goes to Jeffries,power too I feel.Bowe could be hit and Jeffries might get him in trouble with his shots,Jeffries would have to be more aggressive than we have seen on the footage available,waiting for Bowe to come in and then counter him ,wouldnt pile up many points,I think Jeff would need to go after Bowe and try and drain his stamina,at his very best I think he could pull it off,but he would take punishment to do it.

[cross_trainer]

This is one instance where Bowe's strengths play strongly into Jeffries', and Bowe's weaknesses would make his "modern era" stylistic advantage less prevalent.

I'd go with Jeffries by decision here.

[jbrunner3]

I see Bowe winning this fight by late knockout. Bowe would've won the jab battle and would've been more active and athletic on the inside. I'm not ruling out a potential Jeffries knockdown of Bowe, but in the end, Prime Bowe would've finished him off against the ropes, maybe in the 10th.

[janitor]

Jeffries would absolutely butcher Bowe.

Bowe was open to getting hit and liked to trade on the inside. Jeffries is going to have his way with anybody who likes to work on the inside due to his wrestling background.

If Holyfield had Jeffries power he would have won all three fights.

[Bo Bo Olson]

I think Jefferse would get angery...he feared his own strength, feared killing someone...broke Sailor sharkeys ribs....was for the time super fast running the hundred yards in close to 10 seconds.
He quit because he was tried of getting pounded, his trainer wanted him to absorb punsihment to wear the other guy out...
So lets give Jeffereis Blackburn, to mak eup for a short 15 round fight.
I picked Bowe because it was not a 20 or 25 or a fight to the finish.
In a long fight Jefferies of course.

[JIm Broughton]

Bowe takes it behind his jab. Jeffries did'nt have a jab and neither did any, or at best, most of the men he faced. What little footage we have of Jeff shows a crouching stalking then lunging at his opponent type fighter followed by a long clinch. Against Bowe he would be facing a bigger more skilled opponent who made good use of a hard punishing jab and was a good infighter despite his size. Plus he was faster than Jim. At 6'5" 240lbs with modern boxing skills to boot, a prime in shape Bowe would wear down and stop the durable but limited Jeffries late in the fight.

[cross_trainer]

Bowe takes it behind his jab. Jeffries did'nt have a jab and neither did any, or at best, most of the men he faced. What little footage we have of Jeff shows a crouching stalking then lunging at his opponent type fighter followed by a long clinch. Against Bowe he would be facing a bigger more skilled opponent who made good use of a hard punishing jab and was a good infighter despite his size. Plus he was faster than Jim. At 6'5" 240lbs with modern boxing skills to boot, a prime in shape Bowe would wear down and stop the durable but limited Jeffries late in the fight.

Your description of Jeffries' style is accurate, though I will also add that it's going to be difficult to KEEP him on the outside. Jeffries was a "sticky" fighter--after he lunged in, he stayed on the inside and hammered you until you could force him off (or he chose to get off of you). This will probably be decided on the inside, not on the outside where Bowe can use his jab.

[Boilermaker]

Bowe takes it behind his jab. Jeffries did'nt have a jab and neither did any, or at best, most of the men he faced. What little footage we have of Jeff shows a crouching stalking then lunging at his opponent type fighter followed by a long clinch. Against Bowe he would be facing a bigger more skilled opponent who made good use of a hard punishing jab and was a good infighter despite his size. Plus he was faster than Jim. At 6'5" 240lbs with modern boxing skills to boot, a prime in shape Bowe would wear down and stop the durable but limited Jeffries late in the fight.

What makes you think that Bowe was in the same league as Jeffries in the speed category? Even the version that faced Johnson had superior speed to Bowe.

Bowe is tough, very tough. But he is so open to the left hook, as demonstrated in the holyfield fight, where Holyfield simply didnt have the power to hurt him. Jeffries did have the power to hurt him when he landed. It would be no easy fight. Bowe would definitely hit Jeffries, and probably harder than jeffries had ever been hit before. And i agree that Bowe may be one fighter who jeffries might struggle to wrestle and push around. But at the end of the day, the Jeffries has too much power in the left hook and hurts and backs up Bowe too much. Plus, in the later rounds, his stamina would be far better. By the end of the fight, Jeffries would be landing at will, but as with Sharkey, it wouldnt surprise if Bowes Heart carries him the distance.

[ChrisPontius]

I think some people here don't realise the gigantic gap in gloved boxing development between Jeffries' time and Bowe's time.


Bowe is open to the left hook, yes. To boxers who have been throwing the left hooking since high school.

Jeffries' key opponent had to invent the left hook! They rarely threw combinations and didn't know what a jab was, either.
What they did was wrestle and throw punches from there. Jabs, straight right hands (the punch Bowe is most susceptible to) were rarely used back then and it came straight from the unlimited-rounds bareknuckle pugilism.
They hardly knew what glove blocking was either, because the style they had came from gloveless boxing and their current gloves were very small, making it hard to block. This caused them to keep their hands very low. If you think Bowe's defense was leaky, imagine what would happen to someone keeping his hands by his hips most of the time, using no glove blocking at all.

On top of that, Jeffries never faced someone as big and talented as Bowe. Most guys he fought were lightheavyweights and a few cruiserweights and middleweights. Can you imagine a 37 year old middleweight who has been put away several times going 11 and 8 rounds with Bowe?

Now, given Bowe's preference to fight on the inside, Jeffries could still do some good work, but i think Bowe will be happy to stay on the outside once he finds out he can hit him at will with long, straight punches and Jeffries doing no blocking at all.

Under modern rules, Jeffries would get murdered. And vice versa.

[cross_trainer]

I think some people here don't realise the gigantic gap in gloved boxing development between Jeffries' time and Bowe's time.


Bowe is open to the left hook, yes. To boxers who have been throwing the left hooking since high school.

Jeffries' key opponent had to invent the left hook! They rarely threw combinations and didn't know what a jab was, either.

The left hook wasn't invented by Corbett, and the jab (or something VERY close to it) had been used for quite some time when Jeffries came onto the scene.


What they did was wrestle and throw punches from there. Jabs, straight right hands (the punch Bowe is most susceptible to) were rarely used back then and it came straight from the unlimited-rounds bareknuckle pugilism.

The straight right is the earliest punch we know of. Goes back virtually unchanged in body mechanics (except for the stance itself) to Humphries in the 1790's.



They hardly knew what glove blocking was either, because the style they had came from gloveless boxing and their current gloves were very small, making it hard to block. This caused them to keep their hands very low. If you think Bowe's defense was leaky, imagine what would happen to someone keeping his hands by his hips most of the time, using no glove blocking at all.

Johnson used glove blocking quite effectively, and Jeffries' tendency to keep his hands higher would indicate that this was starting to come into fashion at the time.

But you're right--they used slipping in preference to blocking, and Jeffries especially did.



On top of that, Jeffries never faced someone as big and talented as Bowe. Most guys he fought were lightheavyweights and a few cruiserweights and middleweights. Can you imagine a 37 year old middleweight who has been put away several times going 11 and 8 rounds with Bowe?

Yes, if Bowe is green and fighting under early 20th century rules. This is Fitzsimmons, after all. Conditions of the time gave more advantages to smaller men than modern rules.


Now, given Bowe's preference to fight on the inside, Jeffries could still do some good work, but i think Bowe will be happy to stay on the outside once he finds out he can hit him at will with long, straight punches and Jeffries doing no blocking at all.


That's about the fight I see materializing, except that I do not believe Bowe will be able to keep him on the outside. Jeffries was wily enough to slip under punches (as many modern fighters do without the aid of gloves) and get onto the inside where he likes to fight.

[Quick Cash]

There should be something in the rules to bridge the time differential; it was a hugely different game back then. I propose we change the general premise of this fight and all succeeding fights involving turn-of-the-century fighters. Unless explicitly expressed by the thread starter of course, instead of a 15-round contest, the person to knockout his competitor will be declared the winner. Let's just get Holmes' Jab to agree and begin the discussion anew.

[ChrisPontius]

The left hook wasn't invented by Corbett, and the jab (or something VERY close to it) had been used for quite some time when Jeffries came onto the scene.


On the vague film that is available, they do not throw many straight punches. Jeffries was bigger relative to his era than Lennox Lewis was to his; he would have profited greatly from fighting tall and throwing long, straight punches. But he fought like a little guy.



The straight right is the earliest punch we know of. Goes back virtually unchanged in body mechanics (except for the stance itself) to Humphries in the 1790's.

I think a looping overhand right would be the earliest punch. I cannot back this up with documentation, but it is the punch that comes most naturally, and when people who have never been trained to fight have to fight, this is the punch they will use most.

Anyhow, i rarely saw Jeffries throw a straight right hand.




Johnson used glove blocking quite effectively, and Jeffries' tendency to keep his hands higher would indicate that this was starting to come into fashion at the time.

But you're right--they used slipping in preference to blocking, and Jeffries especially did.


In what fights can i see Johnson using glove blocking effectively? I see him do it rarely. He keeps his hands in a ridiculous position (for gloved boxing, for bareknuckle boxing it's great). He usually leans backward, sticking his arms out to intercept punches. This definitly doesn't work against skilled gloved boxers who will take it apart with either combinations, straight punches or hooks. It is no coincidence that out of the hundreds of great boxers we've had since, none of them consistently uses this stance and technique. Because it doesn't work. Ali used to do it quite a bit in his second career, because he, like Johnson, relied a lot on reflexes. But watch how easily a good hooker like Joe Frazier nails him with the left hook over and over again. Keeping your right glove glued to your cheek is a much more effective defensive stance.




Indeed they slipped much more than blocked. And that works better under bareknuckle rules because less punches are thrown (unlimited rounds, wrestling, chance of breaking hands) and few combinations, but relying solely on slipping is not gonna do it against a "modern" boxer. A guy like Chris Byrd is absolutely great at slipping, but he has to use glove blocking a lot too, or he won't survive. Not against bigger guys, anyway.




Yes, if Bowe is green and fighting under early 20th century rules. This is Fitzsimmons, after all. Conditions of the time gave more advantages to smaller men than modern rules.

Jeffries certainly wasn't green the second time he fought Fitzsimmons. But alright, you have a point there and i agree that those rules gave smaller fighters a better chance.



That's about the fight I see materializing, except that I do not believe Bowe will be able to keep him on the outside. Jeffries was wily enough to slip under punches (as many modern fighters do without the aid of gloves) and get onto the inside where he likes to fight.

You may be right here. Bowe never showed that he stayed on the outside when it was the best thing to do. But should he automatically lose that? It is well known that Bowe has a great uppercut and inside game. Jeffries is very durable, but he proved that against tiny guys who were also old. Bowe is bigger than Jeffries and much more talented than any big men he has ever fought. Jeffries did get hit plenty (as did Bowe).

[cross_trainer]

On the vague film that is available, they do not throw many straight punches. Jeffries was bigger relative to his era than Lennox Lewis was to his; he would have profited greatly from fighting tall and throwing long, straight punches. But he fought like a little guy.

The film of Corbett is especially good at showing mostly straight punches. In fact, in the 1880's many boxing manuals didn't even include round blows. Corbett didn't invent them, but the typical punches were lead straight left and lead straight right.

The round punches came into general use later--Tommy Burns even comments on the crouching, hooking "American" style replacing a straight-punching, straight-up "English" style.


I think a looping overhand right would be the earliest punch. I cannot back this up with documentation, but it is the punch that comes most naturally, and when people who have never been trained to fight have to fight, this is the punch they will use most.

Anyhow, i rarely saw Jeffries throw a straight right hand.

It may be the earliest punch, but it's not the earliest one recorded. It isn't as if people were just learning how to punch when Jeffries came on the scene--they had been boxing for over 200 years, and Queensberry Rules had existed for over 50. "Sparring" with gloves dated from Broughton's time, over 160 years back.

Aside from this, the right hand was (along with a left lead) the most common punch in boxing manuals from 1800 onward. There can be no question that Jeffries knew how to throw one.





In what fights can i see Johnson using glove blocking effectively? I see him do it rarely. He keeps his hands in a ridiculous position (for gloved boxing, for bareknuckle boxing it's great). He usually leans backward, sticking his arms out to intercept punches. This definitly doesn't work against skilled gloved boxers who will take it apart with either combinations, straight punches or hooks. It is no coincidence that out of the hundreds of great boxers we've had since, none of them consistently uses this stance and technique. Because it doesn't work. Ali used to do it quite a bit in his second career, because he, like Johnson, relied a lot on reflexes. But watch how easily a good hooker like Joe Frazier nails him with the left hook over and over again. Keeping your right glove glued to your cheek is a much more effective defensive stance.

I believe he uses it in most of the fights that have made their way onto Youtube, and a few highlight reels.




Indeed they slipped much more than blocked. And that works better under bareknuckle rules because less punches are thrown (unlimited rounds, wrestling, chance of breaking hands) and few combinations, but relying solely on slipping is not gonna do it against a "modern" boxer. A guy like Chris Byrd is absolutely great at slipping, but he has to use glove blocking a lot too, or he won't survive. Not against bigger guys, anyway.
.

Byrd's hand positioning is actually somewhat similar to Johnson. Hands far out and relatively low, with a tendency to bat at punches coming in. :D

That aside, I would not argue that Jeffries and Johnson are completely modern. They are, however, modern enough to fight Riddick Bowe, who is vulnerable to exactly the sort of inside game that they like playing. If Jeffries wanted to play the outside game against Bowe, then he would lose. But slipping is probably enough to get him inside.

After all, Tyson and Patterson's guards are also fairly useless for blocking. Great for throwing punches and staying compact, but not for intercepting punches thrown at them. They got along pretty well with just slipping.



Jeffries certainly wasn't green the second time he fought Fitzsimmons. But alright, you have a point there and i agree that those rules gave smaller fighters a better chance.

Yes, you're right about the second time. The "green" argument only holds for the first fight.

You may be right here. Bowe never showed that he stayed on the outside when it was the best thing to do. But should he automatically lose that? It is well known that Bowe has a great uppercut and inside game. Jeffries is very durable, but he proved that against tiny guys who were also old. Bowe is bigger than Jeffries and much more talented than any big men he has ever fought. Jeffries did get hit plenty (as did Bowe).

There are no guarantees, of course. There is a big chance that Bowe will beat Jeffries on the inside--it's just that, of the two, I like Jeffries' chances better.

Looking at the Johnson film, Jeffries did have to get nailed with a lot of uppercuts to be put away--and that at 35 years old, drained, and with his opponent using tiny gloves. If Jeffries can shove Bowe effectively, he will have a better chance, since Bowe couldn't pirouette into an uppercut while moving backward like Johnson could.