Now Ali,Holmes and Frazier give Marciano Props

[Bummy Davis]

Now Ali and Holmes and have both stated that out of all the ATG's Marciano would be the hardest for them to beat...Frazier said Louis and Marciano were the # 1 and 2 heavys of all time...I think these guys (ATG's) would know better than a fan and had a personal and inside view inside the ring......thoughts...

[Addie]

Now Ali and Holmes and have both stated that out of all the ATG's Marciano would be the hardest for them to beat...Frazier said Louis and Marciano were the # 1 and 2 heavys of all time...I think these guys (ATG's) would know better than a fan and had a personal and inside view inside the ring......thoughts...

George Foreman: "Lennox Lewis is the greatest Heavyweight of all time". Just because Foreman was a world champion, doesn't make that statement any less absurd than it sounds. A lot of posters here in the Classic know more about Boxing than 99% of Boxing analysts. Plus, Frazier might have an agenda and doesn't want to concede that Ali, a man he hates by his own admission, was in fact the Greatest of all time. Only Louis and Ali have a case for top spot, everyone else need not apply.

[Bummy Davis]

George Foreman: "Lennox Lewis is the greatest Heavyweight of all time". Just because Foreman was a world champion, doesn't make that statement any less absurd than it sounds. A lot of posters here in the Classic know more about Boxing than 99% of Boxing analysts. Plus, Frazier might have an agenda and doesn't want to concede that Ali, a man he hates by his own admission, was in fact the Greatest of all time. Only Louis and Ali have a case for top spot, everyone else need not apply.


These are the fighters talking not ESB fans or analyst

[Addie]

These are the fighters talking not ESB fans or analyst

Larry Holmes: "Tyson would have been blasted out by Lyle"
Vitali Klitschko: "Lennox Lewis is the biggest name in the history of Boxing"

[GPater11093]

since this is a marciano threadand i wrote a letter about marciano today i migth aswell p[ost it

it was in response to a letter published in (Britainss) Boxing News

In response to Mr Taylor’s letter about Rocky Marciano.

Rocky Marciano is definitely a great fighter, perhaps not the best Heavyweight champion but he was a great champion in the class of Lennox Lewis, Larry Holmes and Mike Tyson.
Marciano’s reign as champion coincided with the end of the great era of the late 40’s and early 50’f of Louis, Walcott and Charles. After every great era there is always a vacuum created and normally the class of the fighters left to fill it aren’t always as good as the guys who left it.
Your analysis of Marciano’s opponents is fairly harsh. Firstly, Louis although not being the force he was, was still a top contender of the day. Marciano’s being fairly Green KO’d him. This was a top 10 contender so a fairly good win.

Jersey Joe Walcott was the Heavyweight Champion of the World. Yes, he was 38 but he was also a very skilled boxer who came in to his own later on in his career. He was just past his prime and still a formidable fight for anyone. He had KO’d Charles with the best left uppercut I have ever seen to win the title and everything about Walcott oozed class, skill and grace. He gave Marciano hell for 13 rounds until Marciano finally wore him down and caught him with a brutal right hook to KO him and take the title. Then he KO’d Walcott in a return within a round. However, there is some debate over how relevant the 2nd Walcott win.
This was a very good win for the Rock; it brought him the World Title and a big win on his record. I think you are being harsh on Walcott here despite being 38 years old he was still a top class fighter.

Ezzard Charles was the legendary Light Heavyweight Champion. Stylish and quick with some great fighting skills. He had moved up to Heavyweight after dominating the Light Heavys for years and eventually took the title Louis had vacated by beating Walcott. Charles was an unpopular champion as he came after the great Joe Louis, and the competition available at the time was not the best and it did not add to his appeal. The biggest threat was Walcott and they fought 4 times with the score level at 2 all. Walcott eventually won the title from Charles in the 3rd meeting between them. Charles challenged Rocky for the title in 1954 many believing him to be past it despite him still being a top class Heavyweight – perhaps not the force he once was but still a top class Heavy. However, Charles put on one of his best displays in going the distance with Rocky but losing on points in an epic. He then fought a rematch and nearly tore Rocky’s nose off but was then KO’d in 8, maybe the 1st fight had put some wear and tear on him. Again Charles was one of the best fighters around in the day so another solid win for Rocky.

Archie Moore was the Light Heavyweight Champion of the world at the time of challenging Marciano. Yes he was on the decline but he was still one of the best in the world at that point. Archie was a cagey crafty veteran with a KO punch and despite being in his 40s he was still a great fighter. He gave Marciano some trouble early on with a knockdown but Marciano came back and gave Moore a beating for the remaining rounds before stopping him in the 9th. This is another good win for Rocky.

You also mention you think Marciano would have trouble with the bigger guys. Marciano was a small rugged brawler with loads of heart and determination. Basically he is hell for anyone. His bobbing and weaving crouching style made him even smaller than his 5ft 10 frame showed, which against a boxer is a good thing as the target are is smaller for them to hit and you can come under there punches. I think Rocky would be beaten by the men you list but he gives them a hell of a fight and really pushes them. Rock was no push over as you seem to make out. He maybe is beaten by the truly great Champions like Ali, Holmes etc… but he is better than that 2nd group like Holyfield, Bowe etc…

Marciano was the best of his time and that is all he can be. In my opinion he is in-between the truly great champions and the 2nd class ones. I don’t do ranking lists or anything but if I did he would be lower top 10 – early teens.

[Addie]

since this is a marciano threadand i wrote a letter about marciano today i migth aswell p[ost it

it was in response to a letter published in (Britainss) Boxing News

In response to Mr Taylor’s letter about Rocky Marciano.

Rocky Marciano is definitely a great fighter, perhaps not the best Heavyweight champion but he was a great champion in the class of Lennox Lewis, Larry Holmes and Mike Tyson.
Marciano’s reign as champion coincided with the end of the great era of the late 40’s and early 50’f of Louis, Walcott and Charles. After every great era there is always a vacuum created and normally the class of the fighters left to fill it aren’t always as good as the guys who left it.
Your analysis of Marciano’s opponents is fairly harsh. Firstly, Louis although not being the force he was, was still a top contender of the day. Marciano’s being fairly Green KO’d him. This was a top 10 contender so a fairly good win.

Jersey Joe Walcott was the Heavyweight Champion of the World. Yes, he was 38 but he was also a very skilled boxer who came in to his own later on in his career. He was just past his prime and still a formidable fight for anyone. He had KO’d Charles with the best left uppercut I have ever seen to win the title and everything about Walcott oozed class, skill and grace. He gave Marciano hell for 13 rounds until Marciano finally wore him down and caught him with a brutal right hook to KO him and take the title. Then he KO’d Walcott in a return within a round. However, there is some debate over how relevant the 2nd Walcott win.
This was a very good win for the Rock; it brought him the World Title and a big win on his record. I think you are being harsh on Walcott here despite being 38 years old he was still a top class fighter.

Ezzard Charles was the legendary Light Heavyweight Champion. Stylish and quick with some great fighting skills. He had moved up to Heavyweight after dominating the Light Heavys for years and eventually took the title Louis had vacated by beating Walcott. Charles was an unpopular champion as he came after the great Joe Louis, and the competition available at the time was not the best and it did not add to his appeal. The biggest threat was Walcott and they fought 4 times with the score level at 2 all. Walcott eventually won the title from Charles in the 3rd meeting between them. Charles challenged Rocky for the title in 1954 many believing him to be past it despite him still being a top class Heavyweight – perhaps not the force he once was but still a top class Heavy. However, Charles put on one of his best displays in going the distance with Rocky but losing on points in an epic. He then fought a rematch and nearly tore Rocky’s nose off but was then KO’d in 8, maybe the 1st fight had put some wear and tear on him. Again Charles was one of the best fighters around in the day so another solid win for Rocky.

Archie Moore was the Light Heavyweight Champion of the world at the time of challenging Marciano. Yes he was on the decline but he was still one of the best in the world at that point. Archie was a cagey crafty veteran with a KO punch and despite being in his 40s he was still a great fighter. He gave Marciano some trouble early on with a knockdown but Marciano came back and gave Moore a beating for the remaining rounds before stopping him in the 9th. This is another good win for Rocky.

You also mention you think Marciano would have trouble with the bigger guys. Marciano was a small rugged brawler with loads of heart and determination. Basically he is hell for anyone. His bobbing and weaving crouching style made him even smaller than his 5ft 10 frame showed, which against a boxer is a good thing as the target are is smaller for them to hit and you can come under there punches. I think Rocky would be beaten by the men you list but he gives them a hell of a fight and really pushes them. Rock was no push over as you seem to make out. He maybe is beaten by the truly great Champions like Ali, Holmes etc… but he is better than that 2nd group like Holyfield, Bowe etc…

Marciano was the best of his time and that is all he can be. In my opinion he is in-between the truly great champions and the 2nd class ones. I don’t do ranking lists or anything but if I did he would be lower top 10 – early teens.

Great post. I have no issues with anyone championing Rocky Marciano as a great fighter, he certainly was. He fought everyone that was available for him to fight, and he beat every single one of them. Walcott was outclassing him, but the true showing of a champion is overcoming adversity and Marciano did that in abundance. A beautiful shot to end things.

However, the thread starter seems to be implying that the opinions of Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier holds more weight simply because they were champions themselves. I don't see it that way, like I said before, a few posters in the Classic forum can claim to know more about the history of Boxing then 90% of Boxing analysts. Fighters are quite notorious for coming out with outlandish comments, and although I don't think this is one of those occasions, just type in "George Foreman quotes" in google search if you want to hear some comedy gold.

Marciano could have been a hard fight for both Frazier and Ali, but the opinions of Ali and Frazier don't change my stance. I feel Marciano was one of the least impressive fighters out of the consensus top 10 Heavyweights, and Ali in particular would have had a field day with the slow, plodding, come forward Marciano that went 49-0 in a relatively weak era.

[mr. magoo]

We also have to consider that all of those men ( Ali, Holmes, etc.. ), have experienced the CONSEQUENCES of speaking ill of past greats. Ali was criticized for his belittling of Joe Louis, while Holmes to this day, still gets shit for one distasteful comment that made about Marciano 25 years ago..

While I would certainly like to think that their respect towards the Rock and other greats is genuine, we also have to take it with a political grain of salt...

[rm36]

He was a great heavyweight, but I've never been really convinced he could beat the best heavyweights of the last 20 years with great size.

[teeto]

It's a bit of a personal victory for me that both Ali and Holmes have said this because if you go through my posts on Marciano you'll see i've always called him a 'head to head monster'. Haha.

[Addie]

It's a bit of a personal victory for me that both Ali and Holmes have said this because if you go through my posts on Marciano you'll see i've always called him a 'head to head monster'. Haha.

:verysad The word of Holmes and Marciano shouldn't be considered gospel. They are just plain wrong in my judgment.

[teeto]

:verysad The word of Holmes and Marciano shouldn't be considered gospel. They are just plain wrong in my judgment.
Nar it's gospel.

Ssshhh!

Only kidding, my post was just one for fun. Though i always have said he would be my strongest bet against Ali, who i consider the best heavyweight, in terms of effectiveness. The only thing that puts me off is the size factor. I think Marciano maybe would come unstuck against Holmes though, who was more of a complete fighter stlylistically, he would be able to meet Rocky and we all know he could box. I'd be picking Ali against Holmes though.

Just my opinion.

[PetethePrince]

George Foreman: "Lennox Lewis is the greatest Heavyweight of all time". Just because Foreman was a world champion, doesn't make that statement any less absurd than it sounds. A lot of posters here in the Classic know more about Boxing than 99% of Boxing analysts. Plus, Frazier might have an agenda and doesn't want to concede that Ali, a man he hates by his own admission, was in fact the Greatest of all time. Only Louis and Ali have a case for top spot, everyone else need not apply.

Foreman doesn't even have Lennox in his top 10.

[PetethePrince]

:verysad The word of Holmes and Marciano shouldn't be considered gospel. They are just plain wrong in my judgment.

You're so wrong. If Cooney can trouble Holmes than Rocky damn well could.

[Addie]

Foreman doesn't even have Lennox in his top 10.

That isn't what the papers were saying after Lennox Lewis knocked out Mike Tyson. In fact, refer to the HBO commentary of the fight. You might be surprised. I can see your a Rocky fan so I won't put to much effort in arguing with you, but we should all take the comments with a grain of salt.

[PetethePrince]

That isn't what the papers were saying after Lennox Lewis knocked out Mike Tyson. In fact, refer to the HBO commentary of the fight. You might be surprised. I can see your a Rocky fan so I won't put to much effort in arguing with you, but we should all take the comments with a grain of salt.

I know he said it, but maybe it was just Foreman over-blowing the situation or relating it nice publicly on the air. However, Lennox isn't even a top 10 HW according to Foreman. You can find a youtube clip after the fight where he states the same thing, yet George hasn't kept his word on that opinion.

And really, we can't take everyone's opinion with a grain of salt. Look at the context. Foreman says 1000 things, and Larry is usually one of the truest and honest guys in the sport. Your comparison between the two opinions automatically being equal is idiotic, frankly.

[Addie]

You're so wrong. If Cooney can trouble Holmes than Rocky damn well could.

:verysad Holmes beat the living shit out of Cooney.

[Addie]

I know he said it, but maybe it was just Foreman over-blowing the situation or relating it nice publicly on the air. However, Lennox isn't even a top 10 HW according to Foreman. You can find a youtube clip after the fight where he states the same thing, yet George hasn't kept his word on that opinion.

And really, we can't take everyone's opinion with a grain of salt. Look at the context. Foreman says 1000 things, and Larry is usually one of the truest and honest guys in the sport. Your comparison between the two opinions automatically being equal is idiotic, frankly.

You want to hear how credible Larry Holmes comments are? Refer to the other thread on this page where he trashes the 90s Heavyweights. He says something along the lines of, "Lyle would knockout Mike Tyson". As I said earlier, Holmes and Ali aren't automatically correct - they've both been guilty of saying silly shit in the past.

[PetethePrince]

:verysad Holmes beat the living shit out of Cooney.

Did you watch the fight? Cooney was at one point jabbing with Holmes. Two of the scorecards had it a 2 point fight. Let's not get into hyperbole.

[janitor]

We also have to consider that all of those men ( Ali, Holmes, etc.. ), have experienced the CONSEQUENCES of speaking ill of past greats.

Sure.

Sonny Liston nearly ended up having to fight Marciano in a four rounder after he implied that he could beat him.

Muhamad Ali ended up with some bruised ribs.

Both of these guys found him to be a verry considerable presence even in his 40s, and Larry Holmes probably would have done as well if Marciano had been 40 when he was champion.

I wonder if he would have made the jockstrap comment.

[PetethePrince]

You want to hear how credible Larry Holmes comments are? Refer to the other thread on this page where he trashes the 90s Heavyweights. He says something along the lines of, "Lyle would knockout Mike Tyson". As I said earlier, Holmes and Ali aren't automatically correct - they've both been guilty of saying silly shit in the past.

You're confusing Holmes bitter bias short-sided comments as being illegitimate, as if that makes what the rest of Holmes said as automatically being non-credible and untruthful. Holmes speaks from the heart, what you're saying is proving my point. He goes overboard with his bias sometimes but in this case he uses analysis to examine why he thinks Marciano would be his toughest fight. The guy has previously said he would over-power Marciano but now has turned a leaf. What would his motive be? Clean up his image on the subject or something? Get real. When he says that Lyle and Tyson shit he's just talking and doesn't provide any sound reasoning. You can't take all comments being equal. You have to look at the context or angles, otherwise you'll be blinded with looking at with Holmes, Ali, and Foreman all have to say is being bullshit. And that my friend is a stupid way to look at things.

[Bill1234]

George Foreman: "Lennox Lewis is the greatest Heavyweight of all time". Just because Foreman was a world champion, doesn't make that statement any less absurd than it sounds. A lot of posters here in the Classic know more about Boxing than 99% of Boxing analysts. Plus, Frazier might have an agenda and doesn't want to concede that Ali, a man he hates by his own admission, was in fact the Greatest of all time. Only Louis and Ali have a case for top spot, everyone else need not apply.


Foreman's word is probably the least credible of all of the former greats, he changes what he says to please people. One day Ali is the greatest, the next Lennox is. He's great at making people like him, but that doesn't mean he even believes what he is saying.

[Addie]

Damn. Two Marciano fans against me? Not having that lads, believe what you like. Marciano was the best of all times. :good

[Bill1234]

Damn. Two Marciano fans against me? Not having that lads, believe what you like. Marciano was the best of all times. :good

Nobody here has stated Marciano was the best. We are just saying that some fighters are more honest and open about their true feelings than others.

[Addie]

Nobody here has stated Marciano was the best. We are just saying that some fighters are more honest and open about their true feelings than others.

I think Ali, Holmes and Frazier are being honest with themselves when they say that Marciano would have been the toughest test. That doesn't necessarily make them right, that's my point. This isn't all of a sudden some sort of revelation, 'Wow guys, Marciano WOULD be the toughest after all". It's just their opinions, all of which will forever remain speculation. I respectfully disagree with all three men. :good

[janitor]

You want to hear how credible Larry Holmes comments are? Refer to the other thread on this page where he trashes the 90s Heavyweights. He says something along the lines of, "Lyle would knockout Mike Tyson". As I said earlier, Holmes and Ali aren't automatically correct - they've both been guilty of saying silly shit in the past.

I have to bow to your point here.

Using Holmes as a refference would be a bit hit and miss.

[mr. magoo]

Sure.

Sonny Liston nearly ended up having to fight Marciano in a four rounder after he implied that he could beat him.

Muhamad Ali ended up with some bruised ribs.

Both of these guys found him to be a verry considerable presence even in his 40s, and Larry Holmes probably would have done as well if Marciano had been 40 when he was champion.

I wonder if he would have made the jockstrap comment.

Things are a bit different under exhibition circumstances. On one end, you have an aging ex-champ who wants to prove that he's not an old man, while on the other, you have a young champ who doesn't want to hurt the old guy.
You also have the factor of the young man giving the older his dues when asked by the media " how did he do? "

Figure it out...

[PetethePrince]

I think Ali, Holmes and Frazier are being honest with themselves when they say that Marciano would have been the toughest test. That doesn't necessarily make them right, that's my point. This isn't all of a sudden some sort of revelation, 'Wow guys, Marciano WOULD be the toughest after all". It's just their opinions, all of which will forever remain speculation. I respectfully disagree with all three men. :good

So what are you arguing about? You're comparing on an honest and sound assessment to a bias critical shortsided comment by Holmes on Lyle and Tyson to complete discredit him. You don't think that's wrong? You're not going to prove any point by doing that. And no, you actually said we should hold their (legends) opinions with a grain of salt. If anything, I'll take their word of who would trouble them the most over you and probably most posters here. They have an understanding of their style and the weaknesses they possess and what attributes it may take to trouble them. So, of course, their insight is in fact firsthand and something to respect. :good

[Addie]

"If you want to get technical about the whole thing...Rocky couldn't carry my jock strap.." - Larry Holmes :lol:

[PowerPuncher]

Now Ali and Holmes and have both stated that out of all the ATG's Marciano would be the hardest for them to beat...Frazier said Louis and Marciano were the # 1 and 2 heavys of all time...I think these guys (ATG's) would know better than a fan and had a personal and inside view inside the ring......thoughts...

Now why dont you post all the criticisms Ali and Holmes made of Marciano :thumbsup

[Addie]

So what are you arguing about? You're comparing on an honest and sound assessment to a bias critical shortsided comment by Holmes on Lyle and Tyson to complete discredit him. You don't think that's wrong? You're not going to prove any point by doing that. And no, you actually said we should hold their (legends) opinions with a grain of salt. If anything, I'll take their word of who would trouble them the most over you and probably most posters here. They have an understanding of their style and the weaknesses they possess and what attributes it may take to trouble them. So, of course, their insight is in fact firsthand and something to respect. :good

I'm saying, I respectfully disagree with all three men in their assessments. I feel Marciano was a great champion in his time, but loses to all of the great Heavyweights that followed his reign. Ali and Frazier may believe what they are saying, but I think they are wrong. :good

[janitor]

Things are a bit different under exhibition circumstances. On one end, you have an aging ex-champ who wants to prove that he's not an old man, while on the other, you have a young champ who doesn't want to hurt the old guy.
You also have the factor of the young man giving the older his dues when asked by the media " how did he do? "

Figure it out...

What is apparent is that Ali changed his estimate of Marciano's prime abilities dramaticaly as a result of sparring with him. He obviously did not name Marciano as the man who would have posed the greatest threat to him based on the film footage.

This makes me think that he saw something in this old man, who he probably was easing up on. He saw the style and the power and knew that this was an absolute beast in its prime.

Perhaps even more dangerous than Joe Frazier.

[PowerPuncher]

What is apparent is that Ali changed his estimate of Marciano's prime abilities dramaticaly as a result of sparring with him. He obviously did not name Marciano as the man who would have posed the greatest threat to him based on the film footage.

This makes me think that he saw something in this old man, who he probably was easing up on. He saw the style and the power and knew that this was an absolute beast in its prime.

Perhaps even more dangerous than Joe Frazier.

I think Ali made a somewhat derogatory analysis of Marciano after they sparred

[Bokaj]

What is apparent is that Ali changed his estimate of Marciano's prime abilities dramaticaly as a result of sparring with him. He obviously did not name Marciano as the man who would have posed the greatest threat to him based on the film footage.

This makes me think that he saw something in this old man, who he probably was easing up on. He saw the style and the power and knew that this was an absolute beast in its prime.

Perhaps even more dangerous than Joe Frazier.

I think he did. Ali's preference was slick boxers and I don't think he would have been as impressed by Marciano as he was by only watching footage of him.

[Bummy Davis]

Now why dont you post all the criticisms Ali and Holmes made of Marciano :thumbsup


I think that would be more up your alley

[Bummy Davis]

I think Ali made a somewhat derogatory analysis of Marciano after they sparred


Yea he said that M__F_ can hit

[Bummy Davis]

What is apparent is that Ali changed his estimate of Marciano's prime abilities dramaticaly as a result of sparring with him. He obviously did not name Marciano as the man who would have posed the greatest threat to him based on the film footage.

This makes me think that he saw something in this old man, who he probably was easing up on. He saw the style and the power and knew that this was an absolute beast in its prime.

Perhaps even more dangerous than Joe Frazier.


good point...I really dont think Ali would have given him the credit if he did not believe it to be true and for him to say he would have handled Dempsey but Marciano would be the toughest, well Ali believed it to be true.

[bodhi]

Things are a bit different under exhibition circumstances. On one end, you have an aging ex-champ who wants to prove that he's not an old man, while on the other, you have a young champ who doesn't want to hurt the old guy.
You also have the factor of the young man giving the older his dues when asked by the media " how did he do? "

Figure it out...

Yeah, because this would fit to Ali´s character ...

[PetethePrince]

Now why dont you post all the criticisms Ali and Holmes made of Marciano :thumbsup

You won't find much from Ali post the Superfight. Even pre-superfight he said he was a great champion during the Floyd vs Chuvalo fight. So I'd actually be interested in any criticism you could find with Ali.

[PetethePrince]

I'm saying, I respectfully disagree with all three men in their assessments. I feel Marciano was a great champion in his time, but loses to all of the great Heavyweights that followed his reign. Ali and Frazier may believe what they are saying, but I think they are wrong. :good

Okay, but to me it's a little different when a fighter says. "This guy has the tools and things to bother me." Then lists those strengths and reasons as to why it trouble him. That's not the same as saying, Marciano was a great champion.

Who before Ali's time troubles him more than Marciano would? When Ali/Frazier said what they said, what aspect of it do you disagree with? Seems you're just talking and sidestepping things. But I'm arguing with a Brit (See how I can make simple silly generalizations too).

[PetethePrince]

"If you want to get technical about the whole thing...Rocky couldn't carry my jock strap.." - Larry Holmes :lol:

Have you ever thought one thing about a fighter then changed your mind?

Make a list on a HW rankings and then adjust that list?

If so, stfu. :nod

[Addie]

Have you ever thought one thing about a fighter then changed your mind?

Make a list on a HW rankings and then adjust that list?

If so, stfu. :nod

Jesus dude, no need to get personal about the whole thing. I disagree with Ali when he says Marciano would have been his toughest fight for a number of reasons.

Marciano was being outboxed by the cute Walcott for 13 rounds. If anything is going to trouble Rocky, it's a fighter who has great footwork, extremely fast hands, and who possesses cat-like reflexes. As if that wasn't enough, Ali would enjoy a pretty substantial size advantage at 6'3. It's true, Frazier got to post-exile Ali in the fight of the century but I'm talking about 1960's Ali. He was a different animal.

The fighters who I feel give Ali of the 60s his toughest fight? Holmes because of his superior fundamentals and piston-like jab. Lewis because of his combination of size, power and skill - that I don't think any other Heavyweight can bring to the table. I'm not claiming these fighters are lying in their assessments, only that I disagree.

[PetethePrince]

Jesus dude, no need to get personal about the whole thing.

Yeah, not necessary but you have to realize you're being silly when you repeat an infamous Holmes line as a funny way to try discrediting Holmes word. But again, look I previously said you have to look at the context and look at what/when they are saying what they are saying. Holmes is very honest but somewhat sensitive guy. He and the press had a terrible relationship. He says he could whoop Foreman, says Lyle can whoop Tyson. There's some obvious resentment there. It seems he genuinely changed his opinion on the subject of Marciano. That in and of itself means something, no?

I disagree with Ali when he says Marciano would have been his toughest fight for a number of reasons.

Who then?

Marciano was being outboxed by the cute Walcott for 13 rounds. If anything is going to trouble Rocky, it's a fighter who has great footwork, extremely fast hands, and who possesses cat-like reflexes. As if that wasn't enough, Ali would enjoy a pretty substantial size advantage at 6'3. It's true, Frazier got to post-exile Ali in the fight of the century but I'm talking about 1960's Ali. He was a different animal.

Ok, fair points. But you do realize Rocky was blind for 3-4 of the middle rounds? You also realize Walcott was fighting a one of the best fights of his life up until that knockdown. Walcott was a cutey, but different stylistically. He was a hell of a lot more unpredictable and erratic while being a dynamite puncher. Ali may slice and dice and move on Marciano... he is faster, and moves more fluidly. I pick a prime Ali to beat Marciano by the way, but I don't see any fighter before Ali being more of a challenge than Marciano.

The fighters who I feel give Ali of the 60s his toughest fight? Holmes because of his superior fundamentals and piston-like jab.

Um... Ali said all of this stuff before Holmes made it or became champion. Sorry he didn't have a crystal ball. I think I may disagree with this comment, both are very tough fights.

Lewis because of his combination of size, power and skill - that I don't think any other Heavyweight can bring to the table. I'm not claiming these fighters are lying in their assessments, only that I disagree.

Again, this makes no sense. Ali didn't say this in 1998, he said this stuff during his career. Lewis had trouble with guys that jabbed well. Ali would dance and toy with him I think personally. I definitely disagree with you on this one. Mercer was actually troubling Lewis with the jab.

[Addie]

Yeah, not necessary but you have to realize you're being silly when you repeat an infamous Holmes line as a funny way to try discrediting Holmes word. But again, look I previously said you have to look at the context and look at what/when they are saying what they are saying. Holmes is very honest but somewhat sensitive guy. He and the press had a terrible relationship. He says he could whoop Foreman, says Lyle can whoop Tyson. There's some obvious resentment there. It seems he genuinely changed his opinion on the subject of Marciano. That in and of itself means something, no?



Who then?



Ok, fair points. But you do realize Rocky was blind for 3-4 of the middle rounds? You also realize Walcott was fighting a one of the best fights of his life up until that knockdown. Walcott was a cutey, but different stylistically. He was a hell of a lot more unpredictable and erratic while being a dynamite puncher. Ali may slice and dice and move on Marciano... he is faster, and moves more fluidly. I pick a prime Ali to beat Marciano by the way, but I don't see any fighter before Ali being more of a challenge than Marciano.



Um... Ali said all of this stuff before Holmes made it or became champion. Sorry he didn't have a crystal ball. I think I may disagree with this comment, both are very tough fights.



Again, this makes no sense. Ali didn't say this in 1998, he said this stuff during his career. Lewis had trouble with guys that jabbed well. Ali would dance and toy with him I think personally. I definitely disagree with you on this one. Mercer was actually troubling Lewis with the jab.

:huh I'm a terribly confused young man. I perhaps agree with Ali then, considering he said this before the reigns of Holmes, Tyson, and Lewis.

I apoligise.

[PetethePrince]

:huh I'm a terribly confused young man. I perhaps agree with Ali then, considering he said this before the reigns of Holmes, Tyson, and Lewis.

I apoligise.

It's all good man.

[groove]

marciano was a hero of ali's as a kid - he was the heavyweight champ when young clay started boxing in 1954 - what he wanted to become. ali always had a soft spot for rocky but he did point out that he was lucky to be fighting great fighters past their best. i can picture rocky's face being a bloody mess like cooper v ali (ali would fight on the outside and move and with the big reach advantage i can see him scoring a lot) but rocky would be tough for anyone cuz he has that one special asset - massive fighting heart and most fighters know that is of most importance when fighting the very best!

[Bummy Davis]

marciano was a hero of ali's as a kid - he was the heavyweight champ when young clay started boxing in 1954 - what he wanted to become. ali always had a soft spot for rocky but he did point out that he was lucky to be fighting great fighters past their best. i can picture rocky's face being a bloody mess like cooper v ali (ali would fight on the outside and move and with the big reach advantage i can see him scoring a lot) but rocky would be tough for anyone cuz he has that one special asset - massive fighting heart and most fighters know that is of most importance when fighting the very best!


Marciano knew the Dundees and Angelo told him that Ali is a gret kid, when Rocky met Ali they liked each other but were still competitve in the Ring. Ali was amazed by Rockys power and the way he cut off the ring and comented like most of Rocky's opponents that inside the ring with Rocky was far different then watching his films. Rocky loved Ali's speed and movement and gave him credit.

As far as seeing Rocky cut up like COOPER. #1 Rocky got cut in fights but nothing like Cooper and other then the elbow accident with Charles, none of Rocky's fights were ever going to be stopped on cuts or close. Also you got to look at it both ways Cooper dropped and hurt Ali. Cooper was not near the puncher Marciano was and Rocky had 2 hands, what would the results have been if it was a 2 fisted Marciano going in for the kill instead of Cooper...a big difference...night and day

[Dempsey1238]

Think the Rock gets stop on cuts thing is over played imo.

Marciano only had one mere fight were it was close to being stop on cuts, the Charles fight, and even than, the Doc who was the only guy that had the right to stop fights in regards to cuts, said he was not going to stop the fight.

[PetethePrince]

marciano was a hero of ali's as a kid - he was the heavyweight champ when young clay started boxing in 1954 - what he wanted to become. ali always had a soft spot for rocky but he did point out that he was lucky to be fighting great fighters past their best. i can picture rocky's face being a bloody mess like cooper v ali (ali would fight on the outside and move and with the big reach advantage i can see him scoring a lot) but rocky would be tough for anyone cuz he has that one special asset - massive fighting heart and most fighters know that is of most importance when fighting the very best!

You just compared Cooper's tendency to cut with Marciano. This is ridiclious! Cooper had the high bone structure which had his face bleed virtually all the time. Marciano was rarely cut that bad. He was never threatened to have a fight stoppage because of a punch (Key word, punch). So how are the two comparable? Cooper had tons of stoppages on his record and looked like a bloody messy 4 rounds in.

[PetethePrince]

Think the Rock gets stop on cuts thing is over played imo.

Marciano only had one mere fight were it was close to being stop on cuts, the Charles fight, and even than, the Doc who was the only guy that had the right to stop fights in regards to cuts, said he was not going to stop the fight.

I don't think that's true. However, it's reported that an elbow caused that cut. That's a freak cut either way.

[Dempsey1238]

I don't think that's true. However, it's reported that an elbow caused that cut. That's a freak cut either way.


Its true, the interview following the fight, also the commantary blow by blow mentions nothing about in urgent need to stop the fight.

The doc said in regards to the cut that sure it was bad, but he knew Rocky was not hurt, and not effecting his VISON. So he was not going to stop the fight on the cut.

If a ref was going to stop the fight on cuts, they call in the Doc to see if he can go on or not. And Marciano could have gone on.

There was no ref visiting Rocky for 1 more round, ete. The cut thing in that fight gets overplayed.

[PetethePrince]

Its true, the interview following the fight, also the commantary blow by blow mentions nothing about in urgent need to stop the fight.

Interview with the ref and or doctor? That's hindsight anyway, and not the way Sonny (Rocky's brother)recalls the fight. Why would the commentator knew when it was covered with a bandage? He knew it was bleeding and probably hurt terribly but couldn't neccessarily foresee a stoppage. Plenty of people back this story.

The doc said in regards to the cut that sure it was bad, but he knew Rocky was not hurt, and not effecting his VISON. So he was not going to stop the fight on the cut.

If a ref was going to stop the fight on cuts, they call in the Doc to see if he can go on or not. And Marciano could have gone on.

There was no ref visiting Rocky for 1 more round, ete. The cut thing in that fight gets overplayed.

Maybe, but that certainly makes the fight more dramatic. However, I've heard the story countless times from historians to people close to Rocky so I don't do it's viability.

[Dempsey1238]

they stick to the story, because it helps Rocky's legend.

[mcvey]

Marciano knew the Dundees and Angelo told him that Ali is a gret kid, when Rocky met Ali they liked each other but were still competitve in the Ring. Ali was amazed by Rockys power and the way he cut off the ring and comented like most of Rocky's opponents that inside the ring with Rocky was far different then watching his films. Rocky loved Ali's speed and movement and gave him credit.

As far as seeing Rocky cut up like COOPER. #1 Rocky got cut in fights but nothing like Cooper and other then the elbow accident with Charles, none of Rocky's fights were ever going to be stopped on cuts or close. Also you got to look at it both ways Cooper dropped and hurt Ali. Cooper was not near the puncher Marciano was and Rocky had 2 hands, what would the results have been if it was a 2 fisted Marciano going in for the kill instead of Cooper...a big difference...night and day
I have read that the in the Keene Simmons fight ,Rocky was in danger of being stopped on cuts.

[mcvey]

since this is a marciano threadand i wrote a letter about marciano today i migth aswell p[ost it

it was in response to a letter published in (Britainss) Boxing News

In response to Mr Taylor’s letter about Rocky Marciano.

Rocky Marciano is definitely a great fighter, perhaps not the best Heavyweight champion but he was a great champion in the class of Lennox Lewis, Larry Holmes and Mike Tyson.
Marciano’s reign as champion coincided with the end of the great era of the late 40’s and early 50’f of Louis, Walcott and Charles. After every great era there is always a vacuum created and normally the class of the fighters left to fill it aren’t always as good as the guys who left it.
Your analysis of Marciano’s opponents is fairly harsh. Firstly, Louis although not being the force he was, was still a top contender of the day. Marciano’s being fairly Green KO’d him. This was a top 10 contender so a fairly good win.

Jersey Joe Walcott was the Heavyweight Champion of the World. Yes, he was 38 but he was also a very skilled boxer who came in to his own later on in his career. He was just past his prime and still a formidable fight for anyone. He had KO’d Charles with the best left uppercut I have ever seen to win the title and everything about Walcott oozed class, skill and grace. He gave Marciano hell for 13 rounds until Marciano finally wore him down and caught him with a brutal right hook to KO him and take the title. Then he KO’d Walcott in a return within a round. However, there is some debate over how relevant the 2nd Walcott win.
This was a very good win for the Rock; it brought him the World Title and a big win on his record. I think you are being harsh on Walcott here despite being 38 years old he was still a top class fighter.

Ezzard Charles was the legendary Light Heavyweight Champion. Stylish and quick with some great fighting skills. He had moved up to Heavyweight after dominating the Light Heavys for years and eventually took the title Louis had vacated by beating Walcott. Charles was an unpopular champion as he came after the great Joe Louis, and the competition available at the time was not the best and it did not add to his appeal. The biggest threat was Walcott and they fought 4 times with the score level at 2 all. Walcott eventually won the title from Charles in the 3rd meeting between them. Charles challenged Rocky for the title in 1954 many believing him to be past it despite him still being a top class Heavyweight – perhaps not the force he once was but still a top class Heavy. However, Charles put on one of his best displays in going the distance with Rocky but losing on points in an epic. He then fought a rematch and nearly tore Rocky’s nose off but was then KO’d in 8, maybe the 1st fight had put some wear and tear on him. Again Charles was one of the best fighters around in the day so another solid win for Rocky.

Archie Moore was the Light Heavyweight Champion of the world at the time of challenging Marciano. Yes he was on the decline but he was still one of the best in the world at that point. Archie was a cagey crafty veteran with a KO punch and despite being in his 40s he was still a great fighter. He gave Marciano some trouble early on with a knockdown but Marciano came back and gave Moore a beating for the remaining rounds before stopping him in the 9th. This is another good win for Rocky.

You also mention you think Marciano would have trouble with the bigger guys. Marciano was a small rugged brawler with loads of heart and determination. Basically he is hell for anyone. His bobbing and weaving crouching style made him even smaller than his 5ft 10 frame showed, which against a boxer is a good thing as the target are is smaller for them to hit and you can come under there punches. I think Rocky would be beaten by the men you list but he gives them a hell of a fight and really pushes them. Rock was no push over as you seem to make out. He maybe is beaten by the truly great Champions like Ali, Holmes etc… but he is better than that 2nd group like Holyfield, Bowe etc…

Marciano was the best of his time and that is all he can be. In my opinion he is in-between the truly great champions and the 2nd class ones. I don’t do ranking lists or anything but if I did he would be lower top 10 – early teens.

Fine post Greg, with which I broadly agree ,just one quibble, Charles may well have been the uncrowned LHVY Champ ,but he never actually held the title ,or fought for it.

[Stevie G]

You're so wrong. If Cooney can trouble Holmes than Rocky damn well could.
Imo,Cooney did n't really trouble Holmes. He landed a few decent punches,but Holmes looked pretty much in control all the way. I would put Marciano somewher in my top 15 heavies,but no higher. He was the best of his era,though.

[Stevie G]

Imo,Cooney did n't really trouble Holmes. He landed a few decent punches,but Holmes looked pretty much in control all the way. I would put Marciano somewher in my top 15 heavies,but no higher. He was the best of his era,though.
D'oh ! I've just done Signor Marchegiano a diservice. I meant the bottom half of my top 10 heavies. Apologies to marciano acolytes..!

[Dempsey1238]

I have read that the in the Keene Simmons fight ,Rocky was in danger of being stopped on cuts.


Seen a pic of the fight, and judging by it, Rocky did get cut over the eye, but it didnt look any worse than the cut over the eye he got from Charles in the first fight. In fact, it look like just other type of cut, nothing to bad to stop a fight imo.


It was no were near the level of Cooper or even VK vs Lewis.

I dont even think that cut would stop a fight today.