Could/would Patterson have taken the title from Marciano?

[Maxmomer]

If they met in 1956 in a 15 round title fight, how do you think it would have gone down? I'd pick a prime Marciano to beat Patterson without hesitation, but Marciano was on the slide in 55' when he retired, how much further past it would he have been in 56', say exactly one year after his fight with Moore? What kind of chances would Floyd have?

[Cachibatches]

I just could not see a fighter as fragile as Floyd beating Marciano under any circumstances.

[Longhhorn71]

Kinda like when Stanley Ketchel put Jack Johnson down.

A young, fast, Patterson gives Marciano a flash knockdown.

Then Rocky gets up and knocks the sh*t out of Patterson.

Rocky had a chin,... but Floyd's could be easily dented by the Suzy Q.

[MrMarvel]

Patterson had tremendous hand speed and was sharp defensively. Moreover, he had power. True, his chin was problematic, but he had to have been more durable than people like to give him credit or he wouldn't have been two-time heavyweight champion with a solid post-championship record. I don't see this as an easy task for Marciano at all.

[mr. magoo]

If the question is merely " could? ", then my answer is yes. But, if we're focussing more on the issue of "would?", my inclination would have to be no. Even though Marciano was something like 33 years of age in 1956, and probably past his prime, a 21 year old Patterson would have still been outmatched. Floyd continued to have durability problems throughout his career when facing big punchers.. At 21, and against one of history's best hitters, he'd be in over his head. We also have to consider that Rocky had been the 15 round distance and had partaken in several wars during his tenure as champion.

[Maxmomer]

If the question is merely " could? ", then my answer is yes. But, if we're focussing more on the issue of "would?

That.

[djanders]

Floyd had very fast hands. In there with a past his prime Rocky, I could see Patterson ahead for as long as the fight lasted. The problem is I don't think that would have been long...3 rounds at most...Marciano winning by a knockout...in my opinion.

[PetethePrince]

No

[bodhi]

Well, a 21 year old Patterson would still be too green and unexperienced for the aging, slipping but still very very good Marciano. He would possibly take all the early rounds and most of the middle rounds but then Marciano takes over and finishes him around the 11th.
I don´t buy this Patterson was fragil argument. Patterson was knocked out 3 times, Tyson too but you hear nobody claiming Tyson would have been fragile. Patterson got knocked down quite often but he got up and won more times than not and these knockdowns were more due to beeing off-balance because of his style than anything else. The knockouts were all against very good to great punchers and 2 of them against a fellow atg who just had his number stylitically. That would be like saying Frazier was fragil because he got knocked out by Foreman.

[TheGreatA]

The Patterson who fought Moore vs the Marciano who fought Moore?

Well, Patterson certainly looked better against Old Archie but all that proves is that their styles and abilities were different. Head-to-head I can see the aging Rocky beating a young Patterson but I wouldn't be too certain.

It could be that the speed, skills and determination could upset the former champ who was struggling to find motivation to keep going at that point. For a pressure fighter like Rocky, if you slip once in training you won't have that advantage anymore. For those who believe Patterson's chin would have cracked, don't be too sure, Rocky is not entirely comparable to Sonny Liston or even Ingemar Johansson.

If it was the Marciano who was thinking of making a comeback when Johansson had become the champ against the Patterson who fought Johansson the second time, it would probably end up being like Johnson-Jeffries, Holmes-Ali and so on. Can't see a 37 year old Marciano who had been out of boxing for 5 years being too successful at that point.

[Genesis]

Can't see Patterson beating Marciano.

[Bill1234]

Patterson might look good in the first few rounds, but it wouldn't take very long until Marciano caught Floyd, and it would all be over. Marciano might even win the early rounds with knockdowns. Floyd might look better, but he would be getting put on the deck.

[RockyJim]

Marciano by BRUTAL KO...

[jaffay]

I see it as late round TKO for Marciano. Rocky behind on scorecards though

[MRBILL]

In '56, It's possible............ Patterson was young, spry and fast............ Patty at age 21, would be very slick and too quick for the aging and slowing down 33 year old Marciano............ I'd love to see this match in a time machine........... My guess is, F.P. beats Marciano in 1956............ Cheers......
:bbb:deal

MR.BILL:thumbsup

[PowerPuncher]

In '56 Rocky would be 1 year older and more faded, and would suffer speed/movement disadvantages worse than Charles/Walcott presented. What people forget is Patterson had loads of P4P power and overcame 2 big punchers in Moore and Johansen to win and regain the title. Marciano could be hurt, Patterson might be the 1 to actually stop him. Rocky could ofcourse stop Patterson but its not as easy as some like to make out

[rekcutnevets]

I think Patterson may have pulled off the win, at that time. I don't arrive at this because of anything I saw in the ring, but because of Marciano's retirement. Marciano retired because his body was breaking down. Marciano was 49-0. You can't tell me he wasn't tempted to be 50-0. 50-0 sounds so complete. When champions retire, they most often come back. Sometimes this is due to financial reasons, but most often it is the need to perform. Marciano never gave in, and I think it was because he knew he was incapable of performing at his previous standard.

I would pick Marciano head to head, I rank him higher all time, and I would have picked him had I been alive when the fight would have come off. I think the fact that he retired tells me that he would not have prevailed.

[Maxmomer]

In '56 Rocky would be 1 year older and more faded, and would suffer speed/movement disadvantages worse than Charles/Walcott presented. What people forget is Patterson had loads of P4P power and overcame 2 big punchers in Moore and Johansen to win and regain the title. Marciano could be hurt, Patterson might be the 1 to actually stop him. Rocky could ofcourse stop Patterson but its not as easy as some like to make out

I concur.

[Boxed Ears]

I read that Marciano was thinking about coming back in 59 when Johansson got the title from Patterson. Didn't think much of Ingemar apparently. He would've made some serious dough on that, I think. Remember Floyd wasn't in any hurry to move up in weight and try to score a fight with Marciano in 55 either. I think it would've been a good fight though. I have no problems with Floyd's chin. Two of the five times he was stopped were from Sonny Liston. Once was to undefeated Johansson, once to 21-0 version of Ali, and lastly in his very last fight to the 38-1 Ali on cuts and swelling. Consider that and that he was a light heavyweight who moved up, and had never been stopped a light heavyweight, I think he took punches pretty well, all things considered. He was very talented, damn fine hitter to boot. Wouldn't have been an easy night for either man, I don't think.

[round15]

Patterson would have been my favourite to win a close decision, but the likelyhood that Marciano knocks him out before the distance seems more probable.

Marciano is one of the best of all time in terms of late power because of his incredible stamina. Patterson's fast hands would have given him a fair lead over the first 9 rounds, perhaps 5 to 3 with 1 even round. I'd bet on Marciano at that time to close the gap giving it his all in what could have been his last potential championship fight if he didn't retire.

[PowerPuncher]

Remember Floyd wasn't in any hurry to move up in weight and try to score a fight with Marciano in 55 either.

Well he was only 20 in fairness in '55 and weighing as little as 166lbs that year. I reckon if Marciano stayed on, they'd look to let him mature a bit more and fight him around '57. Patterson looked sensational against Moore though, doing to him what his namesake did to Gatti but ko'ing him for good measure, Marciano sounded impressed himself commenating on it

[KTFO]

Marciano scoring two KDs in early rounds, then Patterson recuperating and winning on points or even TKO due to Marciano cuts.

[he grant]

I think Rocky even at 32 breaks Floyd in half over 15 ...

[Bummy Davis]

I think Floyd was a very good fighter and despite back problems gave Ali a good battle and landed well.I dont think Cus would have brought Floyd up to heavyweight if Marciano did not retire or unless he really started to slip. Marciano was all wrong for Floyd. The Rock was very heavy handed and relentless and If Floyd went down there is no way he would recover. Only a few fighters got off the floor to survive a chasing Rocky. a 37-0 Lastarza did it the 1st fight but a 53-3 Lastarza who beat every man who ever beat him except Rocky entering that fight, could not survive the 2nd fight. I cant see Floyd beating Marciano or even surviving him. Rocky ruined fighters and he may have ruined Floyd as Cus suspected

[Dempsey1238]

Lets not forget that this 1956 Patterson, until he parted with Cus, was a head first fighter. He charge in, as the Liston fights show, and even his fights with the Swed.

Unlike Walcott or Charles, Marciano would not need to be chaseing Patterson, because Floyed would be standed right there, bob and weaving, and comeing INTO the Rock's deadly range.

Sooner or later, and I expect sooner, Marciano will land, and ko Patterson, after a few rounds of a amazing brawl.

Patterson didnt adopt that boxing style until after he lost the title. This fight is not going to last long imo.

[The Wanderer]

I think Patterson would do well to start but Rocky wears him down in the mid rounds. The fight gets stopped somewhere between rounds 6-10.

[JIm Broughton]

I have to agree with Mr. Bill. I think Floyd would've been too fast for Rocky by '55. I could see Patterson's fast hands carving up a much slower Rocky en route to a stoppage. Floyd could punch as well and would certainly get Rocky's attention early. Of course Marciano of say '52 would've destroyed a 21 yr old Patterson but the 55 version would probably lose to the Patterson that ko'ed Moore.

[Dempsey1238]

But Patterson of 56 would be in Rocky's punching range. Patterson may have the fast hands, may even drop Marciano perhaps, BUT, he would not dance away. If Ingo could take out Patterson, I feel pretty sure Marciano even at 33 could do it.

[SuzieQ49]

For those who believe Patterson's chin would have cracked, don't be too sure, Rocky is not entirely comparable to Sonny Liston or even Ingemar Johansson


Rocky not comparable to Ingemar Johansson?

[SuzieQ49]

People make wayy too much of the Archie Moore comparison. When a 21 year old Patterson fought a SWARMER with a hurricane style like Marciano's in Tommy Jackson, Jackson gave him all kind of fits that led to a split decision. Patterson was 21, he was still a boy in many areas including maturity and even physically(still at 182lb)...he was extremley fragile to being caught by a big bomb at that age. I think the aging but much more experienced marciano would overwhelm Floyd. I simply cannot see how a teenager can walk into Marciano and outbrawl him. Floyds youthness and blazing speed will spell trouble the first couple rounds vs marciano, but what happens when rock hits him once? twice? three times? Don't forget, while Rocky was slowing down by 56, I think his defense was at its peak. He actually looked quite slick against moore in his crouch...It is not as if the young flashy floyd will be able to tee off on Marciano at will. Prime Rocko wins by early knockout similiar to the way Liston and Ingo did.


1956 Marciano KO 9 Floyd- fight close on points, until floyd down 5 times from rounds 7-9

[PetethePrince]

People make wayy too much of the Archie Moore comparison. When a 21 year old Patterson fought a SWARMER with a hurricane style like Marciano's in Tommy Jackson, Jackson gave him all kind of fits that led to a split decision. Patterson was 21, he was still a boy in many areas including maturity and even physically(still at 182lb)...he was extremley fragile to being caught by a big bomb at that age. I think the aging but much more experienced marciano would overwhelm Floyd. I simply cannot see how a teenager can walk into Marciano and outbrawl him. Floyds youthness and blazing speed will spell trouble the first couple rounds vs marciano, but what happens when rock hits him once? twice? three times? Don't forget, while Rocky was slowing down by 56, I think his defense was at its peak. He actually looked quite slick against moore in his crouch...It is not as if the young flashy floyd will be able to tee off on Marciano at will. Prime Rocko wins by early knockout similiar to the way Liston and Ingo did.


1956 Marciano KO 9 Floyd- fight close on points, until floyd down 5 times from rounds 7-9

Quite a terrific observation there Suzie. I agree, I feel Marciano looked solid against Moore defensively. He was pitching a lot to trouble Moore but still used defense while engaging at him mercilessly.

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1:25-1:41 particularly on the second video.

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The only thing, though, is his reflexes weren't at his all time best. Of course, he had slowed down a little physically. But his defense was looking solid against Moore.

I think Floyd goes by 5. Way too much pressure and firepower to deal with.

[JIm Broughton]

One thing we have to remember is that Moore was almost 40 years old and his legs were almost gone. After the first few rounds he couldn't get out of the way anymore and as the fight progressed it began to look like two kids in a schoolyard flailing away at each other. Rocky didn't have much snap left in his punches..He was simply winging as many shots as he could at a rather stationary Moore. Sooner or later Moore would fall. Patterson on the other hand would've had his 21 yr old legs with plenty of bounce and stamina in them plus an extremely fast pair of hands to complement them. He wouldn't be a stationary target for Rocky to flail away at. He would be in and out in his bounding hopping way and Rocky's slow hands would find air most of the night. Plus add to the fact that Rocky wasn't the power puncher he was a few years before. He became more of a swarmer, trying to wear the other man out through attrition rather than power. Against a young Patterson this wouldn't work. I don't think he would be able to catch him.

[apollack]

Hell no. No way Patterson handles the nonstop power punching attack of Marciano for 15 rounds. It would be a fun fight though, but I think Rocky gets him.

[Bill1234]

One thing we have to remember is that Moore was almost 40 years old and his legs were almost gone. After the first few rounds he couldn't get out of the way anymore and as the fight progressed it began to look like two kids in a schoolyard flailing away at each other. Rocky didn't have much snap left in his punches..He was simply winging as many shots as he could at a rather stationary Moore. Sooner or later Moore would fall. Patterson on the other hand would've had his 21 yr old legs with plenty of bounce and stamina in them plus an extremely fast pair of hands to complement them. He wouldn't be a stationary target for Rocky to flail away at. He would be in and out in his bounding hopping way and Rocky's slow hands would find air most of the night. Plus add to the fact that Rocky wasn't the power puncher he was a few years before. He became more of a swarmer, trying to wear the other man out through attrition rather than power. Against a young Patterson this wouldn't work. I don't think he would be able to catch him.

Moore wasn't a worn out 40 year old though, he was as fresh as most 30 year olds when he fought Marciano. Patterson's style was to come at you bobbing and weaving, which would play right into Marciano's hands. Marciano might not have been the 1 punch KO artist he was prior to the Walcott fights, he still hit plenty hard, definitely hard enough to hurt and drop Patterson. I don't see Floyd being able to stay away for 15 rounds.

[Hank]

No, even D'Amato knew it. There were no plans to let Flyod fight Rocky, it was not till Rocky retired that Floyd was moved up seriously to heavyweight. Cus would have waited till Rocky was a bit older, and started showing it. Maybe 58 or 59, and even then, look what happened in some of Pattersons defenses--ko'd by Johanson, knocked to floor by that guy having first pro fight. I can't see him beating marciano even then.

[TheGreatA]

No, even D'Amato knew it. There were no plans to let Flyod fight Rocky, it was not till Rocky retired that Floyd was moved up seriously to heavyweight. Cus would have waited till Rocky was a bit older, and started showing it. Maybe 58 or 59, and even then, look what happened in some of Pattersons defenses--ko'd by Johanson, knocked to floor by that guy having first pro fight. I can't see him beating marciano even then.

In 1955 Patterson weighed just 166 pounds and he did have a couple of heavyweight fights during that year against Archie McBride, Jimmy Slade and Dave Whitlock.

When Rocky officially retired in April 1956, Patterson was already weighing around 185 pounds and fighting regularly at heavyweight. About a month later he fought Hurricane Jackson to establish himself as a top contender for the heavyweight title.

[bodhi]

No, even D'Amato knew it. There were no plans to let Flyod fight Rocky, it was not till Rocky retired that Floyd was moved up seriously to heavyweight. Cus would have waited till Rocky was a bit older, and started showing it. Maybe 58 or 59, and even then, look what happened in some of Pattersons defenses--ko'd by Johanson, knocked to floor by that guy having first pro fight. I can't see him beating marciano even then.

Oh, come on not this story. Floyd was knocked out three times, 2 times by an atl puncher. Why do Tyson, Lewis and so on not get half as much talking about having a bad chin as Patterson does. Beeing floored can have many reasons as long as you aren´t knocked out it does not mean you have a bad chin.

[Unforgiven]

No, even D'Amato knew it. There were no plans to let Flyod fight Rocky, it was not till Rocky retired that Floyd was moved up seriously to heavyweight. Cus would have waited till Rocky was a bit older, and started showing it. Maybe 58 or 59, and even then, look what happened in some of Pattersons defenses--ko'd by Johanson, knocked to floor by that guy having first pro fight. I can't see him beating marciano even then.

This article in Sports Illustrated from January 30, 1956 mention Patterson's plans and ambition for fight Marciano, perhaps before the year is out :

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This article below, from Sports Illustrated from April 16, 1956 - before Marciano announced his retirement (on April 27) - calls attention to Floyd Patterson as a leading heavyweight contender, and D'amato is quoted as saying :
"If Marciano retires no one will recognize a champion unless he fights Patterson first. [Markson agrees that this is so.] As for Marciano, I knew six months ago that Patterson was ready for him, and he's better now than he was then."

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[Mendoza]

If they met in 1956 in a 15 round title fight, how do you think it would have gone down? I'd pick a prime Marciano to beat Patterson without hesitation, but Marciano was on the slide in 55' when he retired, how much further past it would he have been in 56', say exactly one year after his fight with Moore? What kind of chances would Floyd have?

True. Marcinao did not look sharp at all vs Archie Moore. Rocky had some back issues. If the back was acting up, Patterson would have a chance at the upset.

[Bill1234]

This article in Sports Illustrated from January 30, 1956 mention Patterson's plans and ambition for fight Marciano, perhaps before the year is out :

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

This article below, from Sports Illustrated from April 16, 1956 - before Marciano announced his retirement (on April 27) - calls attention to Floyd Patterson as a leading heavyweight contender, and D'amato is quoted as saying :
"If Marciano retires no one will recognize a champion unless he fights Patterson first. [Markson agrees that this is so.] As for Marciano, I knew six months ago that Patterson was ready for him, and he's better now than he was then."

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I don't think Cus was being 100% there. He was trying to hype Floyd up, and I'm willing to be if Marciano offered Floyd a shot Cus would have turned it down.