What if Robinson HAD fought the black murderers row of his day?

[SgrRyLeonard]

How do you think it would have affected his place in history and win/loss record if he had faced Burley, Williams, and the rest? Would he win a series against all of them? Could he have somehow gotten through all of them without a loss?

[McGrain]

It depends entirley upon when the fights were made. The first time they tried to make Burley-Robinson, neither one was at peak and it's probably a 50/50, reflected in the press of that time (nobody could decide). The second time, Burley was at peak and Robinson was approaching his, again this would have been at WW and I would have made Burley favourite.

There was talk after that, but nothing firm. To be clear, Robinson truly ducked Burley in my opinion.

Basically these two could have gone 2/3 either way. Rumour has it that Burley was offered a three fight series if he would ditch the first one. He refused (consistant with his general principles). But who knows.

So my short answer would be "no", he can't go unbeaten against these men. If Robinson takes on any one of Burley, Chase, Williams, Bivins, Hogue, Cocoa Kid in a series of 6 like he did with LaMotta he would lose more than the one he dropped to Jake.

However, in a series of 6 I would expect Robinson to dominat all of these men with the possible exception of Burley. All results are possible between Burley and Robinson in my opinion, including a NC, which confuses matters.

[McGrain]

As to his place in history - Robinson was the better of all these men in an "all in" sense. Fighting them, would have made him all the greater, in spite of the loses.

[mcvey]

How do you think it would have affected his place in history and win/loss record if he had faced Burley, Williams, and the rest? Would he win a series against all of them? Could he have somehow gotten through all of them without a loss?
Robinson went on record as saying he had his doubts he could have licked Burley in his prime years.Which of the "Row" would you make favourite over SRR?

[Street Lethal]

How do you think it would have affected his place in history and win/loss record if he had faced Burley, Williams, and the rest? Would he win a series against all of them? Could he have somehow gotten through all of them without a loss?
You don't think Burley or Williams would have beaten Robinson, do you?

[Street Lethal]

People who say Burley would have or could have likely beaten Robinson have the misfortune of their being film of Burley. Not only is Robinson technically better, but it is a bad style matchup for Burley.

[SgrRyLeonard]

Burley would be the toughest test for Robinson, Ray would have to be AT or very near his peak to win. If it happened during Robinson's welterweight title reign, I'd make Robinson the slight favorite. Earlier than that, and I'd make Burley the favorite. I don't think Robinson would go undefeated against the
"Row", he'd be bound to lose some. However, I do think he'd win a series against all of them, maybe even go 2-0 against a couple.

[timmers612]

It is so hard to judge on the one film available of Burley. Still the film is pretty clear and we see a sound boxer who knew distance well, picked his shots, and didn't punch much in combination or let his hands go. It looked based on this film that Robinson staying on his toes and keeping Charley at the end of his jab would be an uneventful close win for Robby.

[McGrain]

It is so hard to judge on the one film available of Burley. Still the film is pretty clear and we see a sound boxer who knew distance well, picked his shots, and didn't punch much in combination or let his hands go. It looked based on this film that Robinson staying on his toes and keeping Charley at the end of his jab would be an uneventful close win for Robby.

Burley was a natural for the Welterweight division, and it must be remembered that in the film he is taking on Smith, who was supposedly one of the hardest punchers in the world p4p and was a serious LHW conteneder. WW v LHW. Charley made the neccesary adaptions when taking on larger men, one of these adaptions was slowing the action down to a crawl. He was perfectly capable of throwing combinations and even pressure fighting under the right circumstances.

Basically, judging him for strategy of the back of the Billy Smith footage is not sensible.

I also respectfully suggest that Sugar trying to keep Charley on the end of his jab would be poor strategy for Ray. Charley was a sharpshooter with a freakish 75" reach.

[Minotauro]

Bivins and Lloyd Marshall would have a good chance since there a lot bigger and that fight would have probably happened at 160 but it unlucky he would have met either due to the fact they rarely fought at the same weight class. By the time Ray moved up to 160 these two had left the division. The same can be about Booker and Cocoa kid who were older same with Holman Williams who had retired by the time Robinson won the title from LaMotta.

I don't believe he ducked Burley or any of the others sure Harry Otty makes it sound like it in Burley's book but really when Ray won the welterweight title Burley was a full middleweight and on the decline, if he could have made 147 is debatable it had been years since he had made the weight and was not one of the main contenders for the title. I doubt Ray would have gone undefeated against them due to the time scale he would have either been green or fighting at a bigger weight then his best.

I think Ray did the smart thing at the time Burley did not have world wide fame as a great fighter sure people in his hometown knew he was legit but beating guys like Zivic and Armstrong on his way up made more sense they were better known and posed lesser risk. Even when he won the title most these guys were fighting at 160 so he didn't need to fight them I mean it not like he fought weak opponents. Prime against Prime it would have been great to theses two or any of the "row" against Robinson but the time shows you would have either had a green/blown up Ray or a declining person from the "row" which probably wouldn’t have helped his legacy

[Street Lethal]

Why would Robinson need to be at his best against Burley when Ezzard Charles, barely out of professional diapers, twice whipped Chuck at middleweight? This was when Charles was losing to the likes of Ken Overlin.I wish Robinson had fought Burley just so that we wouldn't have people coming around claiming that Burley was some sort of threat to Robinson.

[McGrain]

Why would Robinson need to be at his best against Burley when Ezzard Charles, barely out of professional diapers, twice whipped Chuck at middleweight? This was when Charles was losing to the likes of Ken Overlin.I wish Robinson had fought Burley just so that we wouldn't have people coming around claiming that Burley was some sort of threat to Robinson.

Between 1939 and 1941, Burley was rated in the top five WW's. In 42, and between 44 and 46, Burley was rated as at least the third best MW, not his natural division. In that time he beat future champions for two divisions and ranked contenders in three divisions.

Joe Louis to Burley: You are the greatest fighter I have ever seen

Archie Moore: Burley could have beaten Ray in Ray's best time.

Daily Times: I can assure you debators (boxing people in May 1942 were not nearly as sure as you - in fact people were split 50/50 ish) that you are talking about two of the best fighters at any weight.

Star Journal: Robinson perhaps would draw the nod if the fight were for ten rounds, outboxing Burley to a decision. If the fight were...(over the) 15 round distance, Burley, because he is more enduring, would pull out the decision. (I actually disagree with quite a bit of this analysis, but that is not the point. The point is that the press men who regulary saw both fighters fight were hugely conflicted).

Ray Robinson: I'm to pretty to fight Charley Burley.

And a short conversation between Walter Winchell and Sugar:

Walter: You should fight Burley.

Ray: Walter, I thought we were friends?

Burley himself was always confident. But that's neither here nor there. I will accept the testimony of these men who saw Burley and Robinson fight regularly. It would have been a close one. I would probably favour Robinson peak v peak, but only barely.

As you say, we would know if they had actualy fought. And if it had been up to Burley they would have fought. When I say ducked, I mean ducked: Robinson ducked Burley.


As to Burley's loses to Charles - indeed Charles was younger. He was also a big MW, weighing in at 162, Burley weighed in at 154 or 155. That's lot of weight to give a way to a fighter who would mature into a contender for best of all time, p4p. Burley tended to lose to world class box-punchers who were bigger.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Nice posts....I'd heard that robonson dodged burley....and Robinson at 5 11 1/2 fought a lot of very good midgets of 5 foot 5, 6 and 8. A copuple were very close.

[teeto]

I recently purchased and read ' Charley Burley , The life and hard times of an uncrowned champion'. A great book, I'm guessing some of the people posting here have read it, as they seem to knoew a lot on this subject.
I think the hardest of the uncrowned champions would have been Bivins at 160 , it wasnt Robinson's best weight and it was Bivins'. Charles is an unfair match , he was too big , a light-heavy in his prime. I think Ray would have beaten Holman Williams and the Coco Kid , not easily at all though. Maybe Coco would be easier than Williams , because of his style. It would have been bull and matador.
Who knows what would have happened with Burley at 147. I like to think Robinson gets the decision. It would be a fight though , Burley would make him fight and I don't think Sugar Ray would have any objections.

[Jbuz]

Peak for peak, I'd pick Robinson over them all.

[Mendoza]

How do you think it would have affected his place in history and win/loss record if he had faced Burley, Williams, and the rest? Would he win a series against all of them? Could he have somehow gotten through all of them without a loss?

Robinson did not meet many talented black fighters as champion.

[McGrain]

Peak for peak, I'd pick Robinson over them all.

That's not an unreasonable point of view at all. But imagine he took them on as part of a busy 1940's year....

JANUARY - Fight Holman Williams

FEBUARY - Fights Charley Burley

MARCH - Fights Ezzard Charles

JUNE - Fights Charley Burley

SEPT - Fights Eddie Booker

DECEMBER - Cocoa Kid.


Only an insane person would look at that schedule and pick him to beat all of them.

Of course, this is an extreme example. But imagine he took on Burley, Booker and Kid as part of an otherwise busy year. You'd surely expect him to lose to one of these masters.