Who has the better resume, Lewis or Holyfield?

[Meast]

I found quite a few people discussing this in a thread over in the General Forum.

Most people were going for Holyfield, but i wondered what you guys thought?

I still find it very hard to pick Holyfield over Lewis on this one.

[lefthook31]

Oh no, I see another 20 pages coming. :nut
My vote is for Holyfield.

[Unforgiven]

I'm not getting involved. :lol:

[lefthook31]

I'm not getting involved. :lol:
:lol::lol:

[Meast]

Oh no, I see another 20 pages coming. :nut
My vote is for Holyfield.

:rofl

I thought I'd ask here as it usually get a better discussion going without all the shit from people who have no idea.

What makes you pick Holyfield?

[lefthook31]

:rofl

I thought I'd ask here as it usually get a better discussion going without all the shit from people who have no idea.

What makes you pick Holyfield?
Like unforgiven said, I think I will take a pass on this one. People are too passionate when it comes to Lennox Lewis and it often times creates some heated debates that become somewhat personal, and Im old and tired. I think Im officially past my fighting prime.:D

[Meast]

Like unforgiven said, I think I will take a pass on this one. People are too passionate when it comes to Lennox Lewis and it often times creates some heated debates that become somewhat personal, and Im old and tired. I think Im officially past my fighting prime.:D


Yeah i noticed people getting a bit too passionate in the other thread :lol:

I just wondered if someone could give me a better idea of who they'd pick and why!

[Vanboxingfan]

My thoughts are this. The better fighter of the two is Holyfield, his career is better and he's a better p4p fighter. T

he better of the two in terms of heavyweights though is Lewis, he simply stayed at the top longer and won fights more impressively.

In terms of comp I think Holyfield fought the better comp, but Lewis beat the better comp.

Meaning yes Holyfield fought Bowe, but he lost twice. Yes Holyfield fought lewis, but again he (should have) lost twice.

[Bill1234]

Holyfield fought the better comp, but Lewis has the better resume.

[MrMarvel]

Holyfield.

[Meast]

My thoughts are this. The better fighter of the two is Holyfield, his career is better and he's a better p4p fighter. T

he better of the two in terms of heavyweights though is Lewis, he simply stayed at the top longer and won fights more impressively.

In terms of comp I think Holyfield fought the better comp, but Lewis beat the better comp.

Meaning yes Holyfield fought Bowe, but he lost twice. Yes Holyfield fought lewis, but again he (should have) lost twice.


Yeah I think that's a pretty good analysis.

Do you think Holyfield's resume will take a knock if he continues fighting? There's rumours of him fighting Botha in the near future.

[PetethePrince]

I really don't see how this is debatable.

[rekcutnevets]

I rank Lewis higher at heavyweight, and give him the nod in terms of resume at that weight.

I rank Holyfield better p4p, and give him the overall better resume.

[KOTF]

Holyfield's CW dossier puts him over Lewis

[bodhi]

Depends what you mean. Their overall resume? Or their hw resume? Overall Holy just did more and in 2 weightclasses. At hw on the otherhand, well, it´s what you like more Holy´s better overall competition with more losses or Lewis beating not as much top guys as Holy but every single one of them. For me it´s the latter.

[Shake]

My personal opinion is that Lewis was the better heavyweight, but Holyfield was a modern great P4P-wise, and should be ranked highly for his accomplishments and great fights above his best weight.

Also, I credit him a lot for the Valuev fight as well in the same way as I score the Chavez fight for Whitaker.

[crippet]

Lewis has a superior HW resume

Holyfield has a superior career resume

This is very clear and I can't see how it is even debatable..

[Holmes' Jab]

Holyfield's CW dossier puts him over Lewis


Agree with this. Although Holyfield's single best HW win is on a par or better than Lewis', his overall record at Heavyweight isn't quite so and he wasn't as convincing a champ as Lewis.

[PowerPuncher]

IF you try to match WINS (only) that are similar in quality, it is quite close

Holyfieldx2>Tysonx2
Vitalix1<Bowex1
Golota>Douglas
Tua>Moorer :lol:
Rudduck>Holmes
Mercer=Mercer
Prime Mason>Old Thomas
Old Tyson>Old Foreman
Akiwande>Ruiz
Rahman=Rahman
Bruno>Dokes
Morrison>Alex Stewart
Mike Grant>Bean
Briggs>Bert Cooper
Botha>Oquendo
Mavrovic>Rodriguez
McCall>Savaresse

Now I'm sure you can argue either way for many of those but its quite close with allot of them. As we go further in depth of the resume LEwis's wins have more quality to them, but in fairness that isnt including Holy's cruser fights, but then again Holy has fought for an extra 10years

To make it fair when they were both 37 Lennox had 2 losses, Holyfield 4 (but should be 5)

[Beeston Brawler]

IF you try to match WINS (only) that are similar in quality, it is quite close

Holyfieldx2>Tysonx2
Vitalix1<Bowex1
Golota>Douglas
Tua>Moorer :lol:
Rudduck>Holmes
Mercer=Mercer
Prime Mason>Old Thomas
Old Tyson>Old Foreman
Akiwande>Ruiz
Rahman=Rahman
Bruno>Dokes
Morrison>Alex Stewart
Mike Grant>Bean
Briggs>Bert Cooper
Botha>Oquendo
Mavrovic>Rodriguez
McCall>Savaresse

Now I'm sure you can argue either way for many of those but its quite close with allot of them. As we go further in depth of the resume LEwis's wins have more quality to them, but in fairness that isnt including Holy's cruser fights, but then again Holy has fought for an extra 10years

To make it fair when they were both 37 Lennox had 2 losses, Holyfield 4 (but should be 5)

A lot of those are pretty tough to determine which is better...... I'd generally agree, barring those highlighted - but it's all subjective of course.

I'm not sure Gary Mason was better than Pinklon Thomas - Mason fought a lot of stiffs to pad his KO ratio.

[PetethePrince]

IF you try to match WINS (only) that are similar in quality, it is quite close

Holyfieldx2>Tysonx2
Vitalix1<Bowex1
Golota>Douglas
Tua>Moorer :lol:
Rudduck>Holmes
Mercer=Mercer
Prime Mason>Old Thomas
Old Tyson>Old Foreman
Akiwande>Ruiz
Rahman=Rahman
Bruno>Dokes
Morrison>Alex Stewart
Mike Grant>Bean
Briggs>Bert Cooper
Botha>Oquendo
Mavrovic>Rodriguez
McCall>Savaresse

Now I'm sure you can argue either way for many of those but its quite close with allot of them. As we go further in depth of the resume LEwis's wins have more quality to them, but in fairness that isnt including Holy's cruser fights, but then again Holy has fought for an extra 10years

To make it fair when they were both 37 Lennox had 2 losses, Holyfield 4 (but should be 5)

Beyond biased. For someone who questions someone's biased-ness or lack of objectivity this is really quite astounding. Not even worth correcting half of the slant of this post.

[PowerPuncher]

A lot of those are pretty tough to determine which is better...... I'd generally agree, barring those highlighted - but it's all subjective of course.

I'm not sure Gary Mason was better than Pinklon Thomas - Mason fought a lot of stiffs to pad his KO ratio.

As I said you can argue, Thomas was certainly better prime for prime, although looked shot against Holyfield with a lack of effort, Mason was prime and gave a good account of himself, perhaps this was an excellent performance by Holyfield. I dont think much to Foreman in his comeback to be honest, Holmes is a far better win for Holyfield. I also truly think Akiwande is a better boxer than Ruiz, but Ruiz obviously achieved more, getting more opportunities and over achieving along the way

[PowerPuncher]

Beyond biased. For someone who questions someone's biased-ness or lack of objectivity this is really quite astounding. Not even worth correcting half of the slant of this post.

Where's the bias, I tried to remain impartial, all the HW wins of each fighter are there matched up comparatively, and as I mentioned the wins comparison are close and subjective. I'm a fan of Lennox but also of Holyfield, who'd beat Marciano btw :yep

If you prefer to bother to make your own analysis feel free

[Beeston Brawler]

As I said you can argue, Thomas was certainly better prime for prime, although looked shot against Holyfield with a lack of effort, Mason was prime and gave a good account of himself, perhaps this was an excellent performance by Holyfield. I dont think much to Foreman in his comeback to be honest, Holmes is a far better win for Holyfield. I also truly think Akiwande is a better boxer than Ruiz, but Ruiz obviously achieved more, getting more opportunities and over achieving along the way

Certainly the Holmes win was better for Evander than that over George.

Akinwande is a tough guy to rate, admittedly. I wouldn't have favoured him over a guy like Frank Bruno..... it was easier to base himself in America away from the clamour of all-British showdowns and beat lesser fighters with deceiving records.

[PowerPuncher]

Certainly the Holmes win was better for Evander than that over George.

Akinwande is a tough guy to rate, admittedly. I wouldn't have favoured him over a guy like Frank Bruno..... it was easier to base himself in America away from the clamour of all-British showdowns and beat lesser fighters with deceiving records.

Henry seemed to have some decent skills but clearly wasnt strong enough to withhold a powerhouse like Lewis, after that debacle he was shunned by promoters and tv networks alike. That fight aside he was a pretty decent prospect, fast hands, 86inch reach, 6'7, good jab and right

I'm not sure he'd keep Bruno off him either but for the sort of money you got fighting Bruno it probably would have happened if he was offered it, so imo he wouldnt have been. Aside from those 2 and Hide I'm not sure the British domestic scene was that hot around '95 onwards, Oyebola (RIP), Welch and Francis were the Brit champs, a weak era and he fought Welch, who was considered the worst Brit Champ ever if I remember rightly. Akiwande has a decent record against fringe contenders types Schulz x2, Tucker, Jeremy Williams, Johnny Nelson, Orlin Norris, Hoffman, so no greats but he showed promise, was working his way way back into contention after the Lewis fight on a nice winning run until McCall smashed him after Henry was about 10rounds up, but thats boxing

In an era like today though, Klitschkos/Haye aside he would have a shot against anyone imo

[Rubber Warrior]

I found quite a few people discussing this in a thread over in the General Forum.

Most people were going for Holyfield, but i wondered what you guys thought?

I still find it very hard to pick Holyfield over Lewis on this one.

Overall body of work suggests the man that became king of two divisions

I believe Holy was an overachiever gifted at climbing mountains whereas Lewis was a better caretaker of the heavyweight championship - able to defend it more consistently.

When Lewis and Holy fought Evander was definitely on the decline...and in the rematch he fought well.

From a style perspective, and this is purely subjective, I believe Lewis would rate higher on a head to head list in fantasy scenario's than would Holy...who himself wouldn't rate "low". Much has to do with style as much as pedigree.

Both were great fighters.

[mr. magoo]

My personal opinion is that Lewis was the better heavyweight, but Holyfield was a modern great P4P-wise, and should be ranked highly for his accomplishments and great fights above his best weight.

Also, I credit him a lot for the Valuev fight as well in the same way as I score the Chavez fight for Whitaker.


This is actually a good way to do it. The title of the thread was " who had the better resume ", and not " who was the better heavyweight. "

Holyfield dominated an entire division and unified all its belts before even ascending to heavyweight. Upon his stepping up in weight, he became the division's only 4 time belt holder.. Like yourself, I rate Lewis as the better heavyweight, but I think Holy is a better pound for pound choice.

[lefthook31]

Beyond biased. For someone who questions someone's biased-ness or lack of objectivity this is really quite astounding. Not even worth correcting half of the slant of this post.
:lol: Power puncher is a bandwagon jumper, but hes a good guy. Im the greatest poster in the world to him in a Roy Jones thread!:lol:

[PetethePrince]

Where's the bias, I tried to remain impartial, all the HW wins of each fighter are there matched up comparatively, and as I mentioned the wins comparison are close and subjective. I'm a fan of Lennox but also of Holyfield, who'd beat Marciano btw :yep

If you prefer to bother to make your own analysis feel free

Alright. Let's see where to begin.

IF you try to match WINS (only) that are similar in quality, it is quite close

Holyfieldx2>Tysonx2
Vitalix1<Bowex1
Golota>Douglas
Tua>Moorer :lol:
Rudduck>Holmes
Mercer=Mercer
Prime Mason>Old Thomas
Old Tyson>Old Foreman
Akiwande>Ruiz
Rahman=Rahman
Bruno>Dokes
Morrison>Alex Stewart
Mike Grant>Bean
Briggs>Bert Cooper
Botha>Oquendo
Mavrovic>Rodriguez
McCall>Savaresse



Let's start with the first one. Tyson x2 > Holyfield X2. Holyfield was clearly more forgone from his prime, at least physically. Sure, he had just beaten Tyson twice and was a unified champ. But Lennox had many physical advantages, and was a much fresher fighter. He also, didn't put much of a performance in either fight. For me, the Tyson wins are clearly better. I rank Tyson above Holyfield, and by 1996 I don't feel Tyson was as foregone as many project. The Tyson wins with Tyson being 30 compared to an aging Holyfield just doesn't equate for me. I think it's obvious.

Respectively, Golota is a fair was far more consistent within his performances. But he wasn't a winner. In hindsight, the Douglas win gets tainted because Douglas doesn't come out with a care so in the context it's not a serious win for Holyfield, but as far as legacy goes Holyfield did beat the man who just trashed arguably the most feared HW.

Tua was 20 pounds heavier than in the Ike fight. Moorer is a much more balanced, and complete fighter with a better resume/performance in his respective career to boot. The Moorer win is better (Regardless of Tua blasting him out).

Old Tyson is in no way better win than Old Foreman. Sorry, Foreman gave himself a terrific and surprising account of himself. Old Tyson didn't train, wasn't mentally prepared, and only won 1 round. Holyfield at a later age with a recent KO loss to Bowe come on the scene to knock out Tyson, then rematch him in win by DQ in the 3rd round. Lewis KOed a much older, much worse Tyson in only 3 rounds less. Foreman hit Holyfield with "The hardest punch he had ever been hit with." Foreman won some rounds, and went the distance making it a tough fight. I'll take that Foreman to blitz Tyson out to fucking hell with zero hesitation. I'll also give that Foreman more chance to trouble Lewis, AND I'll say even that Foreman beats a 96 Tyson. Clearly you're off base here.

What's interesting for the rest of them is the way you match up the fighters to compare. For me, Stewart is better than say perhaps Briggs (Although that is debatable). But it really doesn't matter much, because those wins in comparison are so marginal in historical importance and in terms of being either greater or worse. Lastly, you forgot to mention Holyfield's resume at cruiser-weight. We're talking P4P here. Holyfield's resume is superior. Arguing Lewis is a better HW is another thing, one that is clearly acceptable of a view.

[My2Sense]

IF you try to match WINS (only) that are similar in quality, it is quite close

Holyfieldx2>Tysonx2
Vitalix1<Bowex1
Golota>Douglas
Tua>Moorer :lol:
Rudduck>Holmes
Mercer=Mercer
Prime Mason>Old Thomas
Old Tyson>Old Foreman
Akiwande>Ruiz
Rahman=Rahman
Bruno>Dokes
Morrison>Alex Stewart
Mike Grant>Bean
Briggs>Bert Cooper
Botha>Oquendo
Mavrovic>Rodriguez
McCall>Savaresse


Golota was in no way a bigger win than Douglas. Douglas had just whupped "the baddest man on earth" and was the unified HW champion. All Golota had done was give Bowe hell in two LOSING efforts.

Saying an old Tyson was a better win than Foreman is questionable as well, given that Foreman was still good enough to become the champ after that and was arguably a better and more accomplished fighter than Tyson to begin with.

Also, I don't get why you chose to make some of the comparisons that you have. Why not compare Ruddock or Grant to Bowe for example, or Vitali or Tua to Tyson?

[PowerPuncher]

Alright. Let's see where to begin.
1. Let's start with the first one. Tyson x2 > Holyfield X2. Holyfield was clearly more forgone from his prime, at least physically. Sure, he had just beaten Tyson twice and was a unified champ. But Lennox had many physical advantages, and was a much fresher fighter. He also, didn't put much of a performance in either fight. For me, the Tyson wins are clearly better. I rank Tyson above Holyfield, and by 1996 I don't feel Tyson was as foregone as many project. The Tyson wins with Tyson being 30 compared to an aging Holyfield just doesn't equate for me. I think it's obvious.

2. Respectively, Golota is a fair was far more consistent within his performances. But he wasn't a winner. In hindsight, the Douglas win gets tainted because Douglas doesn't come out with a care so in the context it's not a serious win for Holyfield, but as far as legacy goes Holyfield did beat the man who just trashed arguably the most feared HW.

3. Tua was 20 pounds heavier than in the Ike fight. Moorer is a much more balanced, and complete fighter with a better resume/performance in his respective career to boot. The Moorer win is better (Regardless of Tua blasting him out).

4. Old Tyson is in no way better win than Old Foreman. Sorry, Foreman gave himself a terrific and surprising account of himself. Old Tyson didn't train, wasn't mentally prepared, and only won 1 round. Holyfield at a later age with a recent KO loss to Bowe come on the scene to knock out Tyson, then rematch him in win by DQ in the 3rd round. Lewis KOed a much older, much worse Tyson in only 3 rounds less. Foreman hit Holyfield with "The hardest punch he had ever been hit with." Foreman won some rounds, and went the distance making it a tough fight. I'll take that Foreman to blitz Tyson out to fucking hell with zero hesitation. I'll also give that Foreman more chance to trouble Lewis, AND I'll say even that Foreman beats a 96 Tyson. Clearly you're off base here.

5. What's interesting for the rest of them is the way you match up the fighters to compare. For me, Stewart is better than say perhaps Briggs (Although that is debatable). But it really doesn't matter much, because those wins in comparison are so marginal in historical importance and in terms of being either greater or worse. Lastly, you forgot to mention Holyfield's resume at cruiser-weight. We're talking P4P here. Holyfield's resume is superior. Arguing Lewis is a better HW is another thing, one that is clearly acceptable of a view.

1. Yes I have Holyfield over that Tyson because Holyfield beat him and Tyson2 and Lewis1 were only 18months apart, did Holyfield fade that much in 18months? Holy went onto avenge

2. This 1 could favour Douglas but he was out of shape, although the Tyson Douglas beat wasn't in training and was partying and just wasnt the same man, underrated wins for both fighters and quite close

3. Tua beat Ruiz/Rahman/Moorer/Maskeev and arguably Ibeabuchi. Moorer beat Holyfield/Cooper/Bean/Jirov/Botha - its close but the head to head is devastating in Tuas favour

4. Comeback Foreman just wasn't particularly good, feet in the mud and slow, this is the same Foreman getting schooled by Morrison and Schulz of all people. Aside from chinny Moorer he doesnt have 1 win over a top10er in his comeback and deserved a loss against. Tyson was also younger and nowhere near as overweight as Big George was.

5. I did mention I didnt include Cruserweights because they are impossible to compare to a HWs, simple as really. In the other thread we were discussing Briggs-Stewart and 3-1 favoured Briggs

As I said in my post though, these wins are all quite close and many are subjective to judge, if I was being completely biased I could argue Vitali was a better win the Bowe, but I believe the Bowe win to edge it.

[My2Sense]

How about we do a simple run-down of each man's noteworthy wins:

Lewis
Mason
old Weaver
Biggs
Ruddock
faded Tucker
Bruno
Morrison
Mercer
McCall
Akinwande
Golota
Briggs
old Holyfield (should've been twice)
Tua
Grant
Rahman
old Tyson
Vitali

Holyfield
Qawi (twice)
DeLeon
faded Tillis
Thomas
faded Dokes
Adilson Rodriguez
Alex Stewart (twice)
Douglas
old Foreman
old Holmes
Bowe
Mercer
Tyson (twice)
Moorer
Ruiz
Rahman
Oquendo
Savarese

Did I leave anyone out?

Key points worth noting are that both men beat Rahman and Mercer within a fight of each other, and Holy beat a much younger, fresher, and fitter version of Tyson (while Holy himself was probably farther from his best than Lewis when he beat Tyson).

[mr. magoo]

How about we do a simple run-down of each man's noteworthy wins:

Lewis
Mason
old Weaver
Biggs
Ruddock
faded Tucker
Bruno
Morrison
Mercer
McCall
Akinwande
Golota
Briggs
old Holyfield (should've been twice)
Tua
Grant
Rahman
old Tyson
Vitali

Holyfield
Qawi (twice)
DeLeon
faded Tillis
Thomas
faded Dokes
Adilson Rodriguez
Alex Stewart (twice)
Douglas
old Foreman
old Holmes
Bowe
Mercer
Tyson (twice)
Moorer
Ruiz
Rahman
Oquendo
Savarese

Did I leave anyone out?

Key points worth noting are that both men beat Rahman and Mercer within a fight of each other, and Holy beat a much younger, fresher, and fitter version of Tyson (while Holy himself was probably farther from his best than Lewis when he beat Tyson).

I agree full heartedly with your comparison..

One note that I will make however, is that you list Dokes as faded, and frankly I'm not sure that he was. He was drug free for the first time in years, and that included the time period in which he was a champion. He was in the best shape of his life, trained by a better group of people, and fighting extremely actively, even though his opposition was basically mediocre. He was also still within the general age range of 29-30 years old, and for the first time in his career, actually had something to shoot for, because there was a raining champion ( Tyson ), who he might have gotten a shot at, rather than a champion who was promoted by the same people and whom he was placed in the position of succeding, therefore never destined to meet...

If that makes any sense.... Anyway, I think Dokes is commonly listed as an underrated win for Holyfield, given that people have this perception that Dokes was fading. It was one of the greatest heavyweight fights of the 20th century, and against a very game opponent.

[sweet_scientist]

Better fighter p4p? Holyfield
Better Resume overall? Holyfield
Better Heavyweight? Lewis (largely due to dominance)
Better Heavyweight Resume? Close call either way.

[Unforgiven]

I agree full heartedly with your comparison..

One note that I will make however, is that you list Dokes as faded, and frankly I'm not sure that he was. He was drug free for the first time in years, and that included the time period in which he was a champion. He was in the best shape of his life, trained by a better group of people, and fighting extremely actively, even though his opposition was basically mediocre. He was also still within the general age range of 29-30 years old, and for the first time in his career, actually had something to shoot for, because there was a raining champion ( Tyson ), who he might have gotten a shot at, rather than a champion who was promoted by the same people and whom he was placed in the position of succeding, therefore never destined to meet...

If that makes any sense.... Anyway, I think Dokes is commonly listed as an underrated win for Holyfield, given that people have this perception that Dokes was fading. It was one of the greatest heavyweight fights of the 20th century, and against a very game opponent.

I agree with that assessment of Dokes. He'd racked up 8 wins in 12 months on his latest comeback, named "comeback of the year" in the RING's annual awards. Not against ranked opposition but he'd looked very sharp, and he'd gotten into great shape over that run of fights, and at 30 and clean from drugs he was looking at or near his best form ever. With his 37-1-2 record and WBA title-holder history and proven pedigree he had similar credentials to some of the better challengers Tyson was defending against at the time, like Tubbs, but in better shape.

[RJD]

Holyfield has the better resume p4p and and at heavyweight.

[Shake]

Better fighter p4p? Holyfield
Better Resume overall? Holyfield
Better Heavyweight? Lewis (largely due to dominance)
Better Heavyweight Resume? Close call either way.

/thread