What if Ray Robinson never made his comeback?

[Minotauro]

If Sugar Ray Robinson never made his comeback after the Maxim fight how would you regard him? Do you feel he would be higher or lower in terms of greatest? Also would this be significant enough for him to move up or down in your person p4p list.

His record would have been 131-3-2 but he would not have won the middleweight title three more times as well as never fought and beaten Basilio, Fullmer and Castellani. Thoughts?

[My dinner with Conteh]

I'd rate him about the same (#1). ;)


To be honest, winning, losing, winning, losing, winning and losing titles doesn't impress me as it seems to do many others. If he did that at welter I wouldn't rate him top dog.

[OLD FOGEY]

If Sugar Ray Robinson never made his comeback after the Maxim fight how would you regard him? Do you feel he would be higher or lower in terms of greatest? Also would this be significant enough for him to move up or down in your person p4p list.

His record would have been 131-3-2 but he would not have won the middleweight title three more times as well as never fought and beaten Basilio, Fullmer and Castellani. Thoughts?

I think the only accomplishment which helps all that much is the knockout of Fullmer. That is impressive. Basilio was a welterweight and who cares about a narrow survival against Castellani when evaluating all time greatness. All the losses and poor performances, such as against Jones and the first Fullmer fight, probably cancel out the impressive wins against Fullmer and Olson and so the comeback ends up as a wash.

[Duodenum]

Jimmy Cannon's column about SRR's knockout of Olson to regain the middleweight title, especially after Ray had lost to Tiger Jones earlier in the year, and coming off the deck to barely squeak out a split decision over Rocky Castellani in Robby's previous match, is really what cemented the modern day deification of Robinson in boxing lore, as Cannon described his knockout of Bobo to be an impossible comeback realized.

It must be remembered that Robinson's stunning second round knockout of Olson was an astonishing improvement over the 12 round knockout and 15 round decision wins he recorded against Bobo prior to his retirement.

Unlike Louis, Robby was competing in a division less forgiving of advancing years and wear and tear. Since Robby had decisioned Bobo over 15, Olson had won 24 out of 25 bouts. Only Archie Moore had managed to beat him, in repelling Olson's bid to move up. But Archie was a great champion at the top of his game, who would floor Marciano in his very next fight. In Tiger Jones's first match after beating Robinson, Bobo blew him out in a nontitle ten round decision win of his own (taking one scorecard by an astonishing 100-78).

Since Robby had decisioned Olson, Bobo had beaten Gavilan, Turpin, and the ultra tough Maxim, decking Joey twice in qualifying for his shot at Moore.

Is it beginning to dawn on everybody what a staggeringly massive and dramatic upset Robinson KO 2 Olson was at the time? (Jimmy Cannon certainly articulated it accurately.)

Only in retrospect does Robinson KO 5 Fullmer completely overshadow Robby's dethroning of Olson.

Robinson had long since peaked as a boxer, and would still be generally regarded as the all-time GOAT. But his stunning wins over Olson and Fullmer burnish his legend to a blinding lustre, virtually moving his supreme stature in the sport's history above reproach. It meant that from the time of "No Mas," Duran didn't have any chance of overtaking Robby's ultimate distinction.

So I agree with MDWC, about his being Numero Uno regardless. However, in coming back as he did, Robinson has made it virtually impossible for any future boxer to overtake him in this regard. (RJJ might have had a chance had he unified the HW title and then retired undefeated, but two devastating losses dropped him out of the running.)

To overtake Robby, somebody will have to win 100 contests by knockout, take an undisputed title from WW to HW, and retire undefeated. That may not have been the case had Robinson never come back. (The reason I state that all wins would have to be by knockout is contingent on the continuation of the truncated 12 round limit. Of course then, the fact of such an all-time challenger to Robby would still be hampered by the reality of never having been proven over the championship distance.)

[Street Lethal]

I would rank him the same. You can't get any higher than #1, and Robinson was there before he retired. Hell, when you are that spooky good, winning the middleweight title four more times is just icing on the cake.

[Minotauro]

Any more responses good post Duodenum.

[baddest]

Good post Duodenum. I think on a h2h fantasy basis Robinson would be given even better odds against some fighters especially at middleweight, which is scary to think of actually considering how heavily favored he is against the best. I think though that on a P4P status the ability to come back and beat ATG while past his prime, and even knock them out after getting beaten a couple time puts him atop the mountain as the sole greatest. How many fighters can say they got their ass beat and had enough heart to go back in the ring and take the fight out of that man?

[DDDUUDDDEE]

Duodenum pretty much summed it up.

Excellent post.

[DFW]

I think if SRR had retired after regaining the middleweight crown from Basilio it would have done more for his reputation as maybe being the best of all time in the middleweight division.