Evander Holyfields brain in Mike Tysons body.

[janitor]

I have often thought that Mike Tyson is a fighter who had the talent to be a top 3 all time heavyweight but failed to realize it due to having the wrong mental characteristics.

I also think that Evander Holyfield with an average work ethic would never have cracked the top 30 heavyweights of all time.

Lets take the idea that Mike Tyson has Evander Holyfields personality and Evander Holyfield has Mike Tysons personality.

How do their careers unfold.

[Dempsey1238]

Tyson would still be fighting today trying to unify all the titles.

[ironchamp]

Tyson would more than likely gone up until 1997 with an undefeated record/1 blemish with anywhere from 25-28 title defenses/title wins. Putting him atop the ATG lists.

Holyfield on the other hand would have been a promising young prospect who'd be a titlist but nothing more.

[achillesthegreat]

Tyson is talented but not really any more talented than other heavies.

Ali, Louis, Marciano, Holmes, Foreman, Lewis, Holyfield and Liston were BEASTS with amazing talent and physical assets.

Tyson generally is no more talented than any of the great heavyweights.

Tysons tools is no more sensational either. His technique is some of the best ever. At what he does, he does well BUT he doesn't do everything.

As much as he knows about boxing he is also no more intelligent than the greats above.

Tyson has typical talent, tools and intelligence amongst great. Nothing special and infact inferior, hence the fact he wasn't as great as the guys above.

[ironchamp]

Tyson is talented but not really any more talented than other heavies.

Ali, Louis, Marciano, Holmes, Foreman, Lewis, Holyfield and Liston were BEASTS with amazing talent and physical assets.

Tyson generally is no more talented than any of the great heavyweights.

Tysons tools is no more sensational either. His technique is some of the best ever. At what he does, he does well BUT he doesn't do everything.

As much as he knows about boxing he is also no more intelligent than the greats above.

Tyson has typical talent, tools and intelligence amongst great. Nothing special and infact inferior, hence the fact he wasn't as great as the guys above.

List all those fighters that you mentioned above, do a Poll (Tyson included) and see who the consensus thinks is the most talented.

[achillesthegreat]

List all those fighters that you mentioned above, do a Poll (Tyson included) and see who the consensus thinks is the most talented.
The consensus doesn't matter. It is a consensus myth.

It is irrefutable that Tyson is not more talented than them.

The only thing Tyson had that was special was technique. At what he did, he was amazing but that is it.

[janitor]

The consensus doesn't matter. It is a consensus myth.

It is irrefutable that Tyson is not more talented than them.

The only thing Tyson had that was special was technique. At what he did, he was amazing but that is it.

I would say that in terms of natural talent Tyson could have been up there with Louis and Ali.

[McGrain]

I would say that in terms of natural talent Tyson could have been up there with Louis and Ali.

I agree. Tyson wouldn't find himself in jail, married to an idiot, letting the money go for him, surrounding himself with mooks - all things are possible for him basically. Give Hollyfield Tyson's reaction time and punches for the Bowe fight and he destroys him. Buster Douglas loses a wide decision, probably, Hollyfield would have seen what Buster was up to and adjusted I guess.

The Tyson-Hollyfield fights are to complicated for me to take on :huh

As to Hollyfield, he is beaten at Cruiser and wins a couple of odd ones at HW before faiding into bolivian.

[achillesthegreat]

I would say that in terms of natural talent Tyson could have been up there with Louis and Ali.
He is. My point is he hasn't got some special level of talent, nor is his talent or physical assets any more superior.

Louis has good height, reach, strength, speed and power.

Ali has height, reach, exceptionally fast feet, hands, reflexes and strength.

Foreman and Lewis and had exceptional height and reach, coupled with sensational strength and power.

Liston had an amazing reach, great strength and debilitating power.

Dempsey was from the school of Louis and Tyson. He had great speed to power ratio.

[salsanchezfan]

I'm not sure it would have mattered much, at least long term. Work ethic or no, fighters with Tyson's come-forward-at-all-times style have relatively short life spans in the ring. Train all you want, you're still going to burn out sooner than a guy who can shift down once in a while and regulate the amount of energy (and punishment) he takes and expends. This matters hugely.

[ChrisPontius]

I'm not sure it would have mattered much, at least long term. Work ethic or no, fighters with Tyson's come-forward-at-all-times style have relatively short life spans in the ring. Train all you want, you're still going to burn out sooner than a guy who can shift down once in a while and regulate the amount of energy (and punishment) he takes and expends. This matters hugely.

My thoughts exactly.

While he would've been greater, Holyfield (if he has his own brain) would always give him some trouble, as would Lewis because they would face off when Tyson probably lost a step. Just because he has Holyfields brain doesn't make him impervious to father time with his come-forward style.

And although the 3 year prison lay off didn't help his timing etc, it did "preserve" him a bit. For instance, Joe Louis seemed to be burnt out a bit by his huge activity level between '39-'42. Tyson was fighting 3 times a year from '87, always good, ranked opponents, he may have continued that up to '92 but not without losing something.

[McGrain]

I'm not sure it would have mattered much, at least long term. Work ethic or no, fighters with Tyson's come-forward-at-all-times style have relatively short life spans in the ring.

I would suggest that with Hollyfield brain inside his head (this is getting a bit macabre) Tyson wouldn't be that come forward at all times fighter. That would have been THE major weapon, but not the only one.

[salsanchezfan]

I would suggest that with Hollyfield brain inside his head (this is getting a bit macabre) Tyson wouldn't be that come forward at all times fighter. That would have been THE major weapon, but not the only one.


............What options would he have had? To quote something I read in a boxing magazine once, when you're a 5'11" heavyweight with a 70" reach, you don't have a Plan B. Given his physical attributes, he's not turning into a jab and dance man.

[McGrain]

............What options would he have had? To quote something I read in a boxing magazine once, when you're a 5'11" heavyweight with a 70" reach, you don't have a Plan B. Given his physical attributes, he's not turning into a jab and dance man.

Quite right. Of course, it's not for me to say - i'm no mastermind - but I bet a figher like Hollyfield could have turned Mike into a decent inside-counterpuncher (a good chest-chest fighter, which Tyson never was).

I think Tyson could also become a decent part time bring him fighter, forcing his opponent onto the front foot with positionting with what Tyson has. I wouldn't suggest this as a tactic to win Mike's body (wrong) a round but it could certainly get him a decent "in" against an awkward opponent (Bonecrusher Smith for example) if it was done right.

[mcvey]

I have often thought that Mike Tyson is a fighter who had the talent to be a top 3 all time heavyweight but failed to realize it due to having the wrong mental characteristics.

I also think that Evander Holyfield with an average work ethic would never have cracked the top 30 heavyweights of all time.

Lets take the idea that Mike Tyson has Evander Holyfields personality and Evander Holyfield has Mike Tysons personality.

How do their careers unfold.
I think a better proposition would be to put Evanders testicles in Tysons protector cup,if you did that Tyson would likely still be champion!

[Duodenum]

Well, I do know that putting Tyson's brain in Holyfield's body would cause Evander's arms to be chewed off first.:think:-((

[JimboDs]

Prime Tyson is a little overrated in my opinion. I seem him as another Sonny Liston with even less willpower and certainly less mental stability. His prime coincided with a very weak heavyweight division as well.

He was fast and powerful as people say, but I see him getting destroyed by Foreman the same way Frazier did. It is my belief that Foreman was the hardest hitting heavyweight of all time. Ali would have gotten to his head REAL fast and he didn't have the gifts (as well as the willpower) to pressure and pound Ali the way Frazier did.

I also see Frazier beating Tyson. He probably only had slightly less power than Tyson and was a much better all-around fighter. I see him slipping the right and landing crushing left-hooks with ease. Maybe a a lucky uppercut here or there gets Tyson a knockdown, but I don't see him putting Joe away before Joe ends his night. We all know how Tyson handles getting hit. I don't know that he would have been able to handle being hit by a great puncher, something he never really faced.

Now, as to the original question: I love 'what if?' discussions, but this one is way too theoretical for my taste. I mean, what if you could give a prime Foreman Ali's chin, hand-speed, and agility? The possibilities are endless.

Yes, Tyson had great punching power and a lot of people still get off watching him knockout the bum heavyweights of the late 1980's and early 90's. The only great fighter he ever beat was Michael Spinks who was less of a natural heavyweight than Holyfield or Moorer.

Tyson's physical tools were exceptional, but no more so than Sonny Liston or Jack Dempsey. His style was pure pressure fighting, which means he would decline sharply by his mid 30's no matter what is mental constitution could be.

[achillesthegreat]

IN THE END Tysons career went as good as it ever could. He would ALWAYS lose to Holyfield and Lewis. No one holds the Douglas, Williams or McBride loss against him.

I've never seen a fighter face get away with such a dominating loss. If that was Ali, Louis, Marciano or anyone else, they would be flamed for all time. It doesn't even come into play for Tyson.

So that leaves Holy and Lewis as the real losses. He never beats either of them.

[Ted Stickles]

I have often thought that Mike Tyson is a fighter who had the talent to be a top 3 all time heavyweight but failed to realize it due to having the wrong mental characteristics.

I also think that Evander Holyfield with an average work ethic would never have cracked the top 30 heavyweights of all time.

Lets take the idea that Mike Tyson has Evander Holyfields personality and Evander Holyfield has Mike Tysons personality.

How do their careers unfold.


If Tyson had Holyfields guts and discipline he could have remained undefeated, beaten Marcianos record and most likely never went to jail or left Cayton....But it wasnt meant to be Tyson was his own worst enemy and in large part it was because of his own ignorant thoughts and gullability....

[Marciano Frazier]

Tyson would still be fighting today trying to unify all the titles. Yeah, but he'd probably have a real chance at it, though.

[Luigi1985]

Completely agreed. Tyson was someone, if the fight doesn´t went like usually and like he prefers it (quick and fast massacre in his favour), than he didn´t have the fighter mentality an usual ATG had. But Tyson, with his great power, his phenomenal handspeed for a HW, chin, stamina, and skills, compared with Holyfield´s head, hell, he would be favoured over everyone IMO, but we can make this with every ATG´s, can you immagine Patterson with an iron chin? Marciano 6´5 big? Ali with Lewis power?

[Bummy Davis]

Completely agreed. Tyson was someone, if the fight doesn´t went like usually and like he prefers it (quick and fast massacre in his favour), than he didn´t have the fighter mentality an usual ATG had. But Tyson, with his great power, his phenomenal handspeed for a HW, chin, stamina, and skills, compared with Holyfield´s head, hell, he would be favoured over everyone IMO, but we can make this with every ATG´s, can you immagine Patterson with an iron chin? Marciano 6´5 big? Ali with Lewis power?


A lot of these guys had weaknesses that made them overcompensate and became extra strong because of it....the driving force the will to win, some have it over others,,,,,,Tyson has the wrong birds talking in his ear and he took the low road, became the lower man

[divac]

Some of you have the same opinion that I do.....
.....Tyson was indeed spectacular at what he did, but his overall talents and abilities imo get overrated by many.....its easy to do that because he was such a devestating puncher and finisher.

Its already been mentioned by some, and I agree, for a short Heavyweight with a reach disadvantage, he did'nt consistently attack the body, and very often let himself get tied up on the inside without attempting on his part to unleach fury.

Tyson did most of his damage to an opponent from the outside on a quick pounce to get in and land while on the way in.......but once in, he did very little from the inside. He let himself get tied up, and the pounce from the outside in started all over again.

Good solid skilled Heavyweights who are on the top of their game start to time and neutalize these over and over again pounces that Tyson was famous for, until they're rendered virtually useless.
.....and like someone already said, there is'nt much of a plan B for a fighter of Tyson's size and reach to turn to. If he cant overpower a fighter, his size does'nt lend itself to dish out a boxing lesson in another way.

So to answer the question about Evander Holyfield's brain in Tyson's body....not much difference imo.
Tyson did'nt lose to Buster Douglas and Evander Holyfield for a lack of Warrior mentality.
He took his beating like a Warrior and kept trying in both his loss to Douglas and first fight with Holyfield.

Dont blame Tyson's brain or mentality for his losses to Douglas and Holyfield.
Went Tyson went to pieces and lost it, is when he realized he was'nt going to be able to beat Evander Holyfield in their rematch, and his mental approach to fighting was never the same again.

[mcvey]

Prime Tyson is a little overrated in my opinion. I seem him as another Sonny Liston with even less willpower and certainly less mental stability. His prime coincided with a very weak heavyweight division as well.

He was fast and powerful as people say, but I see him getting destroyed by Foreman the same way Frazier did. It is my belief that Foreman was the hardest hitting heavyweight of all time. Ali would have gotten to his head REAL fast and he didn't have the gifts (as well as the willpower) to pressure and pound Ali the way Frazier did.

I also see Frazier beating Tyson. He probably only had slightly less power than Tyson and was a much better all-around fighter. I see him slipping the right and landing crushing left-hooks with ease. Maybe a a lucky uppercut here or there gets Tyson a knockdown, but I don't see him putting Joe away before Joe ends his night. We all know how Tyson handles getting hit. I don't know that he would have been able to handle being hit by a great puncher, something he never really faced.

Now, as to the original question: I love 'what if?' discussions, but this one is way too theoretical for my taste. I mean, what if you could give a prime Foreman Ali's chin, hand-speed, and agility? The possibilities are endless.

Yes, Tyson had great punching power and a lot of people still get off watching him knockout the bum heavyweights of the late 1980's and early 90's. The only great fighter he ever beat was Michael Spinks who was less of a natural heavyweight than Holyfield or Moorer.

Tyson's physical tools were exceptional, but no more so than Sonny Liston or Jack Dempsey. His style was pure pressure fighting, which means he would decline sharply by his mid 30's no matter what is mental constitution could be.
Im not a huge Tyson fan ,but he did meet punchers like Smith,Bruno,Lewis and Ruddock,all of them could hit,probably as hard or harder than Frazier.

[josak]

This is kind of a dump topic. People don't understand that it's Tyson brain that made him what he was. If he had Holyfields brain then he wouldn't have been the fighter he was. I think the proper question is, what if Tyson had Holyfeild's heart or work ethic maybe. Tyson just got lazy, plain an simple. He lost that determination and hunger he had in his early days. He could have been the best ever, and he was meant to be, but the flame died out too quickly. It happens.

[MrSmall]

I don't think Holy had such an incredible boxing brain, heart yes.

[achillesthegreat]

I think people hold the Douglas loss against him, at least i do.
I never see it really effect his legacy. Every other fighter rightfully gets slated for not avenging such a loss.

Foreman is another one who gets let off for the Young loss.

Look at people like Louis and Lewis, they get slated for their losses and they avenged them!

It doesn't affect Tyson in hypothetical match ups either.

[godking]

Tyson is talented but not really any more talented than other heavies.

Ali, Louis, Marciano, Holmes, Foreman, Lewis, Holyfield and Liston were BEASTS with amazing talent and physical assets.

Tyson generally is no more talented than any of the great heavyweights.

Tysons tools is no more sensational either. His technique is some of the best ever. At what he does, he does well BUT he doesn't do everything.

As much as he knows about boxing he is also no more intelligent than the greats above.

Tyson has typical talent, tools and intelligence amongst great. Nothing special and infact inferior, hence the fact he wasn't as great as the guys above.Of the HWs you mentioned only Ali and Louis possesed equal or more raw Talent.

Physically aside from height Tyson had everything

[godking]

I would suggest that with Hollyfield brain inside his head (this is getting a bit macabre) Tyson wouldn't be that come forward at all times fighter. That would have been THE major weapon, but not the only one.A guy who is 5,11 at best in an era of fighters 6,3 6,4 6,5 does not have ane recourse then a come forward style.

Tyson does not have the reach or size for an outside game.

[JimboDs]

Im not a huge Tyson fan ,but he did meet punchers like Smith,Bruno,Lewis and Ruddock,all of them could hit,probably as hard or harder than Frazier.

If you put them all in front of a stationary dummy that measures punching power then you might be right that they could hit as hard as Frazier.

Frazier was a much better fighter and much more capable of consistently landing clean power punches. His left hook would have been a very effective weapon against Tyson in my opinion. His comparable height and good defense would have been a good asset as well.

[janitor]

He is. My point is he hasn't got some special level of talent, nor is his talent or physical assets any more superior.

Louis has good height, reach, strength, speed and power.

Ali has height, reach, exceptionally fast feet, hands, reflexes and strength.

Foreman and Lewis and had exceptional height and reach, coupled with sensational strength and power.

Liston had an amazing reach, great strength and debilitating power.

Dempsey was from the school of Louis and Tyson. He had great speed to power ratio.

Not one mention here of the most importand factor.

Technique.

Dempsey had it, Langford had it, Louis had it, Tyson had it.

Foreman or even Ali and Liston did not have that final maestro's touch.

[godking]

Not one mention here of the most importand factor.

Technique.

Dempsey had it, Langford had it, Louis had it, Tyson had it.

Foreman or even Ali and Liston did not have that final maestro's touch.Liston from the footage i have sen of him actually was a very technically proficient fighter

[janitor]

Liston from the footage i have sen of him actually was a very technically proficient fighter

He certainly was.

Technicaly proficient and just plain good at everything.

What he perhaps never atained is the blend of power, speed, delivery and method that characterised fighters like Louis and Tyson.

[godking]

He certainly was.

Technicaly proficient and just plain good at everything.

What he perhaps never atained is the blend of power, speed, delivery and method that characterised fighters like Louis and Tyson.True but Listons handspeed was average at best.

Tyson and Louis had great handspeed

Liston would never get the blend of speed and power that Tyson and Louis had . He just did'nt have the handspeed.

[achillesthegreat]

Not one mention here of the most importand factor.

Technique.

Dempsey had it, Langford had it, Louis had it, Tyson had it.

Foreman or even Ali and Liston did not have that final maestro's touch.
I've already mentioned it.

Technique is not talent though. Technique is learnt, you are not born with it.

Tyson had the best technique at what he did. Dempsey, Langford and Louis were flawed in different areas. Like Ali and Foreman they had good points and bad points.

At what Tyson did he had VERY few technical bad poitns.

[achillesthegreat]

Of the HWs you mentioned only Ali and Louis possesed equal or more raw Talent.

Physically aside from height Tyson had everything
Not true.

Dempsey - strength, speed and power. Just like Tyson.

[Grabonator]

It was not tysons brain who tought hom to fight like he did, it was the great Cus d'amato. If this man lived longer Tyson doesend need an Holy brain to be successfull for a longer time.

[janitor]

At what Tyson did he had VERY few technical bad poitns.

But those that he did have were critical. I think that had Damato lived longer he would have adressed these flaws.

I tend to think that Tyson was about where Louis was at the time of the Baer fight whenn his aprenticship was indefinitely put on hold.

[janitor]

I've already mentioned it.

Technique is not talent though. Technique is learnt, you are not born with it.

Tyson had the best technique at what he did. Dempsey, Langford and Louis were flawed in different areas. Like Ali and Foreman they had good points and bad points.

At what Tyson did he had VERY few technical bad poitns.

Fighter slike Dempsey, Langford, Louis and Tyson represent the intersection between talent and technique where the true maestro is born.