The "Superheavyweight" Myth?

[cross_trainer]

My apologies if I seem like I'm harping on this, but it's been on my mind recently. The 90's were an era of very big elite heavyweights--Bowe, Golota, Lewis, and, yes, Vitali and Wlad.

So I wondered whether this was an anomaly.

I ran across this post by Kirk in the General forum:

If Haye and Adamek prove to be legit forces at heavyweight[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), and with the arrival of solis and boytsov.... i dont think the heavyweight division is all THAT bad and def better then its been in awhile potential wise.

Youd have


established champs
-------------------------
Wlad
Vitali

Cruiserweight wreckingballs = in shape fighters with many tools most of the heavyweights dont have
-------------------------------
Haye
Adamek

Exciting and dangerous prospects on the rise
------------------------------------------------
Solis
Boytsov

established contenders
-----------------------------
Chambers
Povetkin

Fan friendly fighters that will make almost any fight interesting
--------------------------------------------------------------
Tua
Arreola


Two solid fighters that need to be mentioned for being in the top 10, and chagaev i think could beat plenty of the other fighters
----------------------------------------------------------
Chagaev
Valuev


Borderline Gatekeepers (are one big win away from making waves, one big loss away from gatekeeper)
--------------------------
Peter
Ruiz


Gatekeepers
--------------------------
Toney
Rahman
Maskaev
Meehan




And you know what stands out?

Aside from the Klitschkos (who are both brothers, and therefore more likely to be comparable in athleticism and size than your typical boxers) and Valuev (who is not "naturally" tall, but has gigantism), everybody has the same size and frame as fighters from the 1970's. They're just more muscular and/or fatter.




Well, Arreola's 6'4", but so was Foreman, more or less. And if you want to go down that route, Terrell was the same height as the Klitschkos.

[Unforgiven]

A lot of heavyweights are out of shape these days, in fact there are more top heavyweights carrying more excess pounds that there ever has been. Most of them who are in shape, or would be in shape in the 205 - 225 range.

But it seems the Klitschko brothers are the best at the moment and are in good shape at 6'6, 240, and 6'8, 250 .... and they certainly have styles that utilize the physical size advantages. So, that's a case for saying there's a "new breed" ..... but then again, it's based on two fighters from the same family, brothers, so it's not exactly solid evidence of a trend.

Anything from 200 or 210 pounds upwards is a good weight for a heavyweight if he's in shape, but most at 230 or more are simply out of shape.
Bigger isn't better, it depends on the individual.

[KTFO]

Styles make fights. Roids make frames. End of story.

[lefthook31]

Styles make fights. Roids make frames. End of story.
Roids dont make people taller though. I think overall people are getting generally taller. Im not sure if its a fact, but it certainly seems to be the case in all sports in shape or not.
On another note, it appears Valueav has gigantism. How many people with this condition are actually professional atheletes? They're usually clumbsy people with many physical problems that dont live as long as the norm. Andre the Giant had it, but cant think of too many pro atheletes with that condition??

[KTFO]

Roids dont make people taller though. I think overall people are getting generally taller. Im not sure if its a fact, but it certainly seems to be the case in all sports in shape or not.
On another note, it appears Valueav has gigantism. How many people with this condition are actually professional atheletes? They're usually clumbsy people with many physical problems that dont live as long as the norm. Andre the Giant had it, but cant think of too many pro atheletes with that condition??



Total misinfo. Do you work for any health institution?

[round15]

Lennox Lewis is probably the only heavyweight I'd consider a Superheavyweight for his career.

[cross_trainer]

Total misinfo. Do you work for any health institution?

After puberty, when the growth plates fuse? :huh

[lefthook31]

Total misinfo. Do you work for any health institution?
Yes I work for the Mayo Clinic..:D No really I didnt know they made you taller, but I would like to see some proof of it, I might do a cycle. :yep

[lefthook31]

Here is the answer I found...
growth hormone can when it is administered in the right phase of growth. neither anabolic or androgenic steroids will cause growth of the human skeletal system.

typically Dr's will only provide treatment for those that are not growing properly due to problems with the endocrine system. GH treatment is typically not covered by most health plans and is very expensive. at your current age and height no Dr would prescribe GH for that reason for you


So these fighters starting doing Roids at 17 to be pro boxers?

[Beeston Brawler]

I wouldn't say it is a myth at all.

Foreman was the first 'superheavy' I can think of, followed later by Lewis, Bowe and the Klitschkos.

However, one reason why they have been so successful is because the more normal sized guys (Tyson and Evander apart) have tried to make themselves as big, rather than using speed and movement to your advantage.

[KTFO]

Just eight words: genetic engineering. Close thread.

[Unforgiven]

Forget Foreman. Carnera was "super-heavy"

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[cross_trainer]

Just eight words: genetic engineering. Close thread.

Right you are! :good

The human race has been continually improved by genetic selection ever since Francis Galton and Herbert Spencer created a worldwide eugenic dictatorship in 1900...

...oh, wait...:huh

[DDA365]

Im not sure if this is entirely to your point but whenever people say that old heaveyweights 'wouldnt be able to compete with modern superheavyweights' or would be at a huge disadvantage or whatever, i have to stop and think which modern superheavyweights exactly do they mean?

I can only think of Bowe,Lewis and the Klitschkos and theyve all been beaten by smaller men.

[AnthonyJ74]

Joe Bugner was a big heavyweight at 6'4" 230+ pounds. A lot of people talk as if guys who are 6'4, 6'5 and well over 220 pounds are only a modern creation. James Bonecrusher Smith was a big heavyweight in the 80's and he'd be a big heavyweight now. Tall, broad-shouldered, thick. Bonecrusher Smith I think had a more impressive physical presence than did 1970's George Foreman.

[dezbeast]

Unforgiven, you have got to be kidding me. Heavyweights would be fine at 200 to 210 pounds?! You must be a huge old school fan. I am to but I have come to the conclusion that no sub 220 pound heavy will ever dominate the division ever again. The best 230 plus pounders today are just too powerful and skilled. At best your theoretical small but fit heavyweight would be able to capture a portion of the title.

[Shake]

Unforgiven, you have got to be kidding me. Heavyweights would be fine at 200 to 210 pounds?! You must be a huge old school fan. I am to but I have come to the conclusion that no sub 220 pound heavy will ever dominate the division ever again. The best 230 plus pounders today are just too powerful and skilled. At best your theoretical small but fit heavyweight would be able to capture a portion of the title.

Never again? Mike Tyson weighed less than 220 in almost all of his fights. So did Holyfield.

Just a love for dramatics, I assume.

[dezbeast]

Yeah Tyson dominated over 20 years ago. And Holyfield wasn't dominant at all.

[rm36]

Yeah Tyson dominated over 20 years ago.

Did he fight small opponents ?

[dezbeast]

My point is that the best super heavyweights today are better than the best super-heavys of even Tysons era. So much so that even Tyson at his peak would not dominate today.

[Shake]

dezbeast, in your estimation, is this head-to-head the strongest era for the heavyweights yet?

[dezbeast]

On average I would say yes. But I do believe that the very best today is not as good as the very best of a few years ago. For example, I consider Lewis better than both Klitchkos. But strangely I see Lewis losing to Ali, and Ali losing to Wlad. I have kind of a mathmatical system of determining the best H2H. It's far from perfect though. Some of the things that happen in the ring just defy logic. I have to constantly revise my system when I spot a variable that contradicts it.

[lefthook31]

Unforgiven, you have got to be kidding me. Heavyweights would be fine at 200 to 210 pounds?! You must be a huge old school fan. I am to but I have come to the conclusion that no sub 220 pound heavy will ever dominate the division ever again. The best 230 plus pounders today are just too powerful and skilled. At best your theoretical small but fit heavyweight would be able to capture a portion of the title.
If you inserted a prime Holyfield and Tyson into todays era you dont think they would be able to dominate? They were both sub 220 pound fighters in their primes.

[lefthook31]

My point is that the best super heavyweights today are better than the best super-heavys of even Tysons era. So much so that even Tyson at his peak would not dominate today.
:bart NOOOOOOOO WAAAY

[dezbeast]

:bart NOOOOOOOO WAAAY

Note that the key word is dominant. That is being so good that seemingly no other opponent would come close to beating you. I don't think Tyson could achieve that status these days.

[lefthook89]

Note that the key word is dominant. That is being so good that seemingly no other opponent would come close to beating you. I don't think Tyson could achieve that status these days.

sorry dezbeast, but if you think chris arreola, sam peter, odlainer solis, and gomez can beat a prime tyson, then i suggest you leave ESB. what on gods green earth gives you the impression that these pilsbury doughboys can last more than three rounds against tyson?? if anyting, tyson would dominate even more in this era. these current batch of HW's may be bigger, but thats where it ends. their just bigger, they're not better, they're not faster, they're not more athletic. the klitschkos are the only exceptions, and their skills aren't all thats cracked up to be IMO.

[KTFO]

:bart NOOOOOOOO WAAAY


You missed Tyson/Lewis did you? :yep

[dezbeast]

I didn't know how irrational you can be against people with differing opinions, going as far as suggesting that I believe that such and such a fighter would beat Tyson even though I never even hinted that they would. So I will discuss no more with you. You believe that Patterson couldn't crack an egg and then have the nerve to suggest I should leave ESB.