Ufc 76

[Tko4]

Play-by-play and talk...here!

[Lostmykeys]

Predictions

Diego Sanchez UD Jon Fitch

Shogun sub Griffin in 2

Liddel KO1 Jardine.

[Tko4]

My predictions are:

Liddell KO 1.
Shogun TKO 2.
Sanchez UD.
Machida UD.
Alvares sub 2.

[ravtrav]

Predictions

Diego Sanchez UD Jon Fitch

Shogun sub Griffin in 2

Liddel KO1 Jardine.:good Exact same. Liddell might take Jardine out in the early part of the second.

Its about to start!

[Donut62]

Fitch is going to beat Sanchez, otherwise I'm with you guys.

[Tko4]

Fitch is going to beat Sanchez, otherwise I'm with you guys.
I was leaning that way for a long time but decided to change my mind today on a gut feeling. For some reason, I think Sanchez is going to come in a new man.

[Tko4]

Has anyone noticed in pumping up Shogun they've never said he clobbered Rampage? I think it's odd, since calling him "the man who once destroyed light heavyweight champion Quinton "Rampage" Jackson" would surely clue casual fans in to what to expect. But it seems like they're protecting Rampage's aura in the U.S.

[Lostmykeys]

Fitch is going to beat Sanchez, otherwise I'm with you guys.

I don't watch much UFC so I just picked Sanchez cause I've actually heard of him before. :good

[Tko4]

I don't watch much UFC so I just picked Sanchez cause I've actually heard of him before. :good

Fitch has won his past 13 fights and is undefeated in the UFC. He's not a slouch!

[Lostmykeys]

Fitch has won his past 13 fights and is undefeated in the UFC. He's not a slouch!

Good numbers but since I don't follow the UFC I don't know any of the guys that he has fought.

I know in boxing a 13-0 record is nothing.

[Tko4]

Good numbers but since I don't follow the UFC I don't know any of the guys that he has fought.

I know in boxing a 13-0 record is nothing.

MMA and boxing records are two different animals. The learning curve is much, much shorter. In boxing, most guys gobble up scrubs for a long period of time. It's not like that in MMA. And any win in the UFC itself is a good win. There are very few fighters that fight in the UFC below a B level in MMA, and it's also the home of a lot of A and A+ quality fighters. 13 straight wins and a 6-0 in the UFC is a HELL of a record. Fitch has yet to face the A level fighters though, but tonight will be a good match. Sanchez is a B+/A- fighter.

[Club Fighter]

Any streams available?

[Lostmykeys]

MMA and boxing records are two different animals. The learning curve is much, much shorter. In boxing, most guys gobble up scrubs for a long period of time. It's not like that in MMA. And any win in the UFC itself is a good win. There are very few fighters that fight in the UFC below a B level in MMA, and it's also the home of a lot of A and A+ quality fighters. 13 straight wins and a 6-0 in the UFC is a HELL of a record. Fitch has yet to face the A level fighters though, but tonight will be a good match. Sanchez is a B+/A- fighter.

Good to know.

[Lostmykeys]

Any streams available?

Illegally accessing a fight that you have not payed for would be immoral.

With that said here is a totally unrelated link.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Tko4]

Good to know.
Most of the best fighters in the world in MMA have 3-6 losses on their records, and there are really good fighters with records that would look awful in boxing. For example, Kenny Florian is a top 10 155 pound fighter, and he's 9-3. A record of 9-3 would suck in boxing because it means you lost 3 fights to D level fighters. However, one of Florian's losses is the the 155 pound champion (Sean Sherk), so the record doesn't tell you much in MMA. It's the names on that record that do. And you don't face D level fighters for years like in boxing.

In MMA, the top guys fight the top guys way more often, and the competition over the course of a fighter's career is much, much tougher. The career course of an MMA fighter and boxer are drastically different.

[Lostmykeys]

First fight has started.

[Tko4]

Round 1 easily to (T) Griffin. Good scrambles and ground work.

[Club Fighter]

Illegally accessing a fight that you have not payed for would be immoral.

With that said here is a totally unrelated link.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

:rofl:rofl:rofl

Thank you. That information has been duly noted.

[Lostmykeys]

:rofl:rofl:rofl

Thank you. That information has been duly noted.

Anytime.

[Lostmykeys]

Lol that bastard dropped him on his head.

[Tko4]

Awesome ground war so far. This is what excitement is all about with grappling. Sean Sherk should take notes...

[allenko1]

Illegally accessing a fight that you have not payed for would be immoral.

With that said here is a totally unrelated link.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Nice use of the morality reference by keys

[Beebs]

How good is this fight, seriously? And how great are these fighters? Especially Tyson Griffin. I've got it for Griffin as the fight is ending.

[Tko4]

How good is this fight, seriously? And how great are these fighters? Especially Tyson Griffin. I've got it for Griffin as the fight is ending.

I give Griffin the UD. I want to watch the rematch...right now. That was a hell of a grappling match. Beautiful work all the way around. Kudos to both guys.

[J_Roth]

Excellent fight. Tyson is fantastic at sub escapes.

[Lostmykeys]

I thought Tavares did more damage but Griffin will win the decison.

[Beebs]

I give Griffin the UD. I want to watch the rematch...right now. That was a hell of a grappling match. Beautiful work all the way around. Kudos to both guys.

And as Rogan pointed out, the crowd was cheering the grappling, really goes to break the sterotype that people just want to watch to sluggers go at it, its just not true anymore.

That slam was filthy.

[Tko4]

Griffin is slowly but surely putting himself in title contention. I think he might actually be able to make a ground war with Sean Sherk exciting...and that says a lot. Making Sean Sherk interesting takes talent.

[ravtrav]

30-27:huh Close fight but i thought round two went to Tavares

[Beebs]

I thought Tavares did more damage but Griffin will win the decison.

What? Tavares had closer submissions, but theres no question at all that Griffin did the more damage to his opponent, did you get the names mixed up or something? I know its cliche and not always indicative of damage, but look at each guy, Tavares looks like he got ran over. He had great sub attempts, some very close catches, but he got punished when he missed.

[Tko4]

30-27:huh Close fight but i thought round two went to Tavares
Yeah, I had it 29-28.

[Beebs]

This fight has the possibility to be dull as shit, lets hope thats not the case.

[Tko4]

This fight has the possibility to be dull as shit, lets hope thats not the case.

It won't exactly be a barn burner. I'm hoping it will at least have something going for it, but it does have potential to suck.

[Tko4]

Haha, I love how they keep trying to take Nakamura's umbrella and he isn't having any of it.

[J_Roth]

I honestly think this fight could be interesting.

[Beebs]

Rd 1 for Machida

[Beebs]

Machida starting to be aggresive finally

[Tko4]

Rd 1 for Machida

Yeah. It was a decent first round, too. It's not as exciting as last fight, but Machida did a bit more than I expected.

[Lostmykeys]

What? Tavares had closer submissions, but theres no question at all that Griffin did the more damage to his opponent, did you get the names mixed up or something? I know its cliche and not always indicative of damage, but look at each guy, Tavares looks like he got ran over. He had great sub attempts, some very close catches, but he got punished when he missed.

Definately possible I already forget who is who.

Better stop drinkin so I'll make it to Liddel.

[Tko4]

Round 2 to Machida. I'd like to see him try a couple left high kicks like he did early in the first round.

[Beebs]

Machida takes it, pry 30-27, sick elbows by machida. crowd shot of Wandy, crowd cheers.

[J_Roth]

Machida has the tools to be exciting. I guess he really just can't execute.

[Tko4]

And the boo birds came out in the third during what I thought was some nice clinch work. Man, casual fans annoy me.

[Beebs]

Wow, apparantly the BJJ ballsuckers at mma.tv/tuf seem to think Tavares won, did I miss something?

[Beebs]

I think Fitch will win this fight.

[Tko4]

Wow, apparantly the BJJ ballsuckers at mma.tv/tuf seem to think Tavares won, did I miss something?

Apparently they think having a strong second round submission wise makes up for a piss poor first round and not so stellar third round?

[Beebs]

Fitch coming out to Johnny Cash, this ensures the win. He's a fellow Hoosier as well, although he went to Purdue, so thats a strike against him.

[J_Roth]

Fitch coming out to Johnny Cash, this ensures the win. He's a fellow Hoosier as well, although he went to Purdue, so thats a strike against him.It's a good choice.

[Tko4]

The Pride announcer screaming when the fighters come to the ring would make the entrances so much better.

[J_Roth]

The Pride announcer screaming when the fighters come to the ring would make the entrances so much better.Instead we get lame Buffer

[Tko4]

I love the animosity in there. A little pre-fight trash talk! This one should be a doozy.

[ravtrav]

Diego looks ready

[Tko4]

Diego looks ready

He likes to put on his "scary" face. Sometimes it makes me laugh.

[Beebs]

Fitch is showing much better wrestling....and the Pride lady was painful btw.

[Tko4]

Fitch is showing much better wrestling....and the Pride lady was painful btw.

Oh, I grew to love her. Watching Shogun come out without her rolling some crazy R's will make me sad.

[Lostmykeys]

I have no idea who is winning.

Straight up.

[Beebs]

Fitch, 20-18

[Tko4]

Fitch whooped his ass in that second round. He was looking for a KO via WWE move.

[Lostmykeys]

There goes my prediction then.

[Lostmykeys]

That Fitch guy looks a lot bigger, how much these guys weigh?

[Blacc Jesus]

Diego fails at looking intimidating.

[Beebs]

Fitch better get the W, either 29-28 or 30-27, pry the former.

The best submission defense is Joe Rogan saying that the other guy has it tight, that means you are immediately out.

[Blacc Jesus]

Nice escape from the triangle by Fitch.

[Tko4]

I wish some of these fights were 5 rounders.

[Tko4]

3 decisions tonight. The arena fans want their blood!

[Lostmykeys]

I won't embarass myself and pick a winner.

[Beebs]

3 decisions tonight. The arena fans want their blood!

They ate up the Griffen vs Tavares fight.

[Beebs]

Fitch!!!!

[Tko4]

They ate up the Griffen vs Tavares fight.

Yeah, which made me happy. But they have booed tonight...and I hate booing.

[Tko4]

Fitch!!!!

When I heard that card for Sanchez, I was thinking this might be the Bisping decision all over again. Phew. Fitch deserved the nod.

[Beebs]

Diego being nice and classy, and surprisingly unweird. The "you don't have to boo" was perfect and succinct, more fighters should do it, at least when they fought hard.

Rogan being annoying by constantly giving backhanded "questions" about how fights are judged, yea we get it Joe, you train BJJ.

[Tko4]

Diego being nice and classy, and surprisingly unweird.

Rogan being annoying by constantly giving backhanded "questions" about how fights are judged, yea we get it Joe, you train BJJ.

Yeah, who replaced Diego with a normal person for that interview?

[Tko4]

Anyone else have this irrational fear that Shogun is somehow going to get knocked out in 20 seconds, and make us go, "Oh shit!" The more Rogan pumps a guy up, the worse he typically does.

[J_Roth]

Anyone else have this irrational fear that Shogun is somehow going to get knocked out in 20 seconds, and make us go, "Oh shit!" The more Rogan pumps a guy up, the worse he typically does.It's crossed my mind. I actually just quite sick of hearing Forrest pumping himself and this fight up. :tired

[J_Roth]

Has anyone noticed in pumping up Shogun they've never said he clobbered Rampage? I think it's odd, since calling him "the man who once destroyed light heavyweight champion Quinton "Rampage" Jackson" would surely clue casual fans in to what to expect. But it seems like they're protecting Rampage's aura in the U.S.Rogan just spoke the truth.

[Tko4]

Rogan just spoke the truth.

Yeah, they're pumping him up more and more now. That scares me. It reminds me of them hyping my boy, Cro Cop, and then saying, "Uh, what happened?"

[J_Roth]

Yeah, they're pumping him up more and more now. That scares me. It reminds me of them hyping my boy, Cro Cop, and then saying, "Uh, what happened?"That fight still makes me sick. It was one of those fights that really saddened me.

[Beebs]

Forrest walking to DKM might just be enough for the win, as Johnny Cash was for Fitch.

[Tko4]

That fight still makes me sick. It was one of those fights that really saddened me.

I couldn't watch MMA for a month after that. My stomach just sank. I am just hoping not to have that repeated tonight. I don't like Shogun nearly as much as I like CC, but I still like him a lot. Go Pride!

[jimmie]

Just got home watching the stream now this fight will be ugly.

[Tko4]

Forrest walking to DKM might just be enough for the win, as Johnny Cash was for Fitch.
Blasphemy!

[Tko4]

Just got home watching the stream now this fight will be ugly.
Woot, welcome.

[Beebs]

10-9 Forrest.

[jimmie]

Griffin vs Rua:

Forrest opens with a legkick. Rua shoots but Forrest gets him down and trys to pass Rua attempts a armbar but Rua gets back to his feet. Shogun slips Forrest right hand and secures a takedown into half guard now full guard. Both men working well and Shogun is landing some nice occasional elbows. Forrest guard is good though hes controlling Shogun not allowing him to pass guard. Forrest works back up to his feet and they exchange wild punches. They get into a clinch and Forrest gets a takedown and rolls into guard and lands some decent shots. Shogun works back up and Forrest catches him with a nice lefthook then Shogun gets him down breifley agianst the fence Forrest is back up but then back down agian with 30 secounds left. Forrest sweeps Shogun at the end of the round and lands some shots.

10-10 good fight.

[J_Roth]

I couldn't watch MMA for a month after that. My stomach just sank. I am just hoping not to have that repeated tonight. I don't like Shogun nearly as much as I like CC, but I still like him a lot. Go Pride!I'm 100% with you. For some reason it took some starch out of me. I took a month or off after the CC loss.

[Lostmykeys]

Forrest won the round imo.

[Tko4]

Forrest is disgustingly huge for 205. Shogun needs to work in the clinch with the knees. He doesn't have the reach to fight standing.

[ravtrav]

I was leaning towards Forrest in that round too.

[Beebs]

Forrest cut, Shogun gassed.

[Blacc Jesus]

Shogun looks like shit.

[Beebs]

Shoguns turtleing will cost him the fight

[jimmie]

Round 2:

1st 30 secounds Forrest appears to have a slight edge outboxing Shogun but Shogun gets a single leg takedown. Rua lands a gunshot like elbow but Forrest pushes Rua off to his feet then takedowns Rua and is on the attack. Shogun back up and just misses a big knee. Shogun attempts a single leg but Griffin stuffs it and Shogun looks tired he keeps dropping the hands and throwing weak kicks and shoots. Forrest slips and lands a lefthook to the body not much effect. Forrest stuffs another single leg and gets Shoguns back for a secound and works into half guard o a cut Shogun and is landing some solid blows while he has a Shogun arm trapped.

10-9 Forrest Griffin

[Beebs]

10-9 Griffin, 10-9 Griffin.

[J_Roth]

Shogun has not looked good at all.

[jimmie]

This is very suprsing and disapointed at Shogun I am.

[Lostmykeys]

Forrest takin him to school.

[Tko4]

I had this feeling right before the fight that someone, someway, one of my favorite Pride fighters would manage to look like absolute shit. Seems to be happening a lot lately.

[ravtrav]

I can't believe this

[Tko4]

Shogun is taking him to the ground and then not doing shit with it.

[Beebs]

Grifoplata!

[Beebs]

#1 LHW in the world huh?

[Tko4]

Maybe Liddell will get knocked out by Jardine in this bizarro world?

[Blacc Jesus]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Fuck Chute Boxe

[Beebs]

Fucking Amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

[jimmie]

Round 3:

Inside leg kick by Forrest then Shogun shoots slowly but gets the takedown and Forrest is trying a triangle to no avail. Forrest is working a good guard off his back Shogun cant pass. Now nothings happening on either end I want a standup god damnit. Forrest attempts a umplata releases it and gets Shoguns back then into half guard but still teeing off on Shoguns face. Shogun despertaley needs to get back to his feet to have any chance at winning this round or more important this fight. Minute left Forrest still on top and dominating Shogun Rua trying to mount he gets his back one more time and flattens him out and submitts him with a rear naked choke HOLY SHIT.

Forrest Griffin Submission round 3

[Tko4]

I'm going to go back to watching boxing for awhile.

[J_Roth]

Amazing. Griffin actually looked really good. He earned it.

[Lostmykeys]

I'm going to go back to watching boxing for awhile.

Give it a month:lol::lol::lol:

[Tko4]

In what fucking world does Forrest Griffin submit Shogun? I guess in the same one Cro Cop gets left high kicked. Fucked up shit, I tell you.

[kel]

Looks like Pride fighters are shit

[ravtrav]

It's as if Forrest was just toying with him

[jimmie]

In January im expecting to wake up and it be January 1st 2007 agian cause theres no fucking way this year in MMA can be real.

[J_Roth]

Looks like Pride fighters are shitThat's a stupid statement.

[Beebs]

I'm going to go back to watching boxing for awhile.

Why? Forrest is legit, Shogun has been showing weakness for several of his last fights.

Edit: Oh, and Randy called it.

[Beebs]

That's a stupid statement.

Yes it is, but it clearly shows that UFC fighters were incredibly underrated by pride nutticklers.

[AJAX]

wow!!! some of the Pride huggers have to give it up!! Shogun even tapped out. Couldn't even beat a TUF guy.

[Tko4]

In January im expecting to wake up and it be January 1st 2007 agian cause theres no fucking way this year in MMA can be real.

Rampage and A. Silva were not good Pride fighters, and they make the best in the UFC look like chumps. Cro Cop and Shogun were good Pride fighters, and they get pwned by a fucker TUFer. Someone explain that to me. How did the guy Shogun kneed to death win the belt from Chuck Liddell? Also, how did the guy who crushed said UFC champ just to lose to a guy who got knocked out by "The Dean of Mean"? I hope Chuck gets knocked out in the main event so this wacky ass night ends on a wacky ass note.

[J_Roth]

Yes it is, but it clearly shows that UFC fighters were incredibly underrated by pride nutticklers.I agree 100%. Everyone always said Pride would dominate. Didn't happen, but that doesn't mean Pride guys suck. I was never fullly sold on Pride domination but I figured they would have done better so far.

[Club Fighter]

Attaboy Forrest!!! That's some more vCash in my account. I knew you'd fuck up that chump Rua . . . now that douchebag Sanchez, on the other hand.:fire

[Blacc Jesus]

Rampage and A. Silva were not good Pride fighters, and they make the best in the UFC look like chumps. Cro Cop and Shogun were good Pride fighters, and they get pwned by a fucker TUFer. Someone explain that to me. How did the guy Shogun kneed to death win the belt from Chuck Liddell? Also, how did the guy who crushed said UFC champ just to lose to a guy who got knocked out by "The Dean of Mean"? I hope Chuck gets knocked out in the main event so this wacky ass night ends on a wacky ass note.
Rampage wasn't good? whoooooa. :lol:

[kel]

Yes it is, but it clearly shows that UFC fighters were incredibly underrated by pride nutticklers.


Maybe Pride fighters are overrated :yep

[Blacc Jesus]

PRIDE and CB dickriders are on suicide watch right about now.

[Club Fighter]

Rampage wasn't good? whoooooa. :lol:

Rampage (like Rich Franklin) loses to anybody with a mean Thai clinch. Not calling him bad, just calling him very susceptible to the Thai clinch.

[AJAX]

PRIDE and CB dickriders are on suicide watch right about now.
\
yep, anybody seen scurlauntings? he's prob loading his shotgun right now!:yep

[Tko4]

Rampage wasn't good? whoooooa. :lol:

He was absolutely dominated on several occasions in Pride. He wasn't a top fighter there, so :lol: at you.

[Blacc Jesus]

\
yep, anybody seen scurlauntings? he's prob loading his shotgun right now!:yep
:rofl

[Tko4]

I have one prediction right thus far tonight. Good thing I didn't put any money down.

[J_Roth]

I picked Sanchez and Hua. :rant

[Donut62]

LMAO. Chute Box fucking sucks. No wonder Wandy left.

[Tko4]

The unpredictability of this sport is at once both exciting and fucking annoying.

[jimmie]

Hmmm just relized if Liddell beats Jardine and Wanderlei which im confident he will but not willing to bet money on it we will have to see Liddell-Jackson 3 likely.

[J_Roth]

Hmmm just relized if Liddell beats Jardine and Wanderlei which im confident he will but not willing to bet money on it we will have to see Liddell-Jackson 3 likely.Yes we will or Wandy vs Jackson again. I'll go out on a limb and say Liddell beats Rampage this time.

[J_Roth]

I actually would like to see Keith Jardine go away. I absolutley hate hearing his retarded Dean of Mean. LAME

[Lostmykeys]

I actually would like to see Keith Jardine go away. I absolutley hate hearing his retarded Dean of Mean. LAME

Agreed fuckin gay ass name.

[Blacc Jesus]

He was absolutely dominated on several occasions in Pride. He wasn't a top fighter there, so :lol: at you. By whom?
You must have just started watching MMA.
He whooped everyone other than Wanderlei from '02 through '04.

[jimmie]

I actually would like to see Keith Jardine go away. I absolutley hate hearing his retarded Dean of Mean. LAME

I agree plus hes just a real ugly guy im not a super model but that dudes just nasty looking.

[Club Fighter]

Forrest Griffin just beat Sherdog.com's #2 ranked p4p MMA fighter, Mauricio Rua, who comes in second only to the much fabled Fedor Emalienenko. Big props to Forrest.

[Tko4]

I actually would like to see Keith Jardine go away. I absolutley hate hearing his retarded Dean of Mean. LAME

I don't like him either, but am in the mood for another upset. I think it would be hilarious if both Shogun and Liddell look like shit. That would take the light heavy rankings and really fuck them up. Alexander Houston might go to number 2 in the world, possibly followed by Sokojdou :rofl

[ravtrav]

Agreed fuckin gay ass name.:yep

[Tko4]

By whom?
You must have just started watching MMA.
He whooped everyone other than Wanderlei from '02 through '04.

Silva and Shogun both crushed him. He was brutally knocked out three times in Pride. And I watched UFC 1 live, so, yeah, I started watching yesterday.

[Beebs]

Jardine will be sleeping soon.

[Lostmykeys]

I put 50 vCash on Liddel he better win.

[eze]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Blacc Jesus]

Silva and Shogun both crushed him. He was brutally knocked out three times in Pride. And I watched UFC 1 live, so, yeah, I started watching yesterday. And? You're acting like they're fucking journeymen.
He was ranked number 2 in the LHW rankings for well over a year.
AND UFC 1 WASN'T LIVE.

[jimmie]

Chuck Liddell vs Keith Jardine:

Very annoying introduction for Liddell by Buffer. Legkicks from Jardine even lands 2 straight rights. Liddell hurts Jardine with a right and chases him around alittle. Jardine landing hard leg kicks but cant seem to land good punches or throw one. Jardine now lands some decent punches but still catious straight kick by Jardine to Liddells stomach. Right by Jardine and another.

10-9 Jardine oh lordy

[J_Roth]

At least we all agree that Jardine is a lame not a model like Jimmie kinda guy

[Lostmykeys]

I gave round 1 to Liddel.

[Tko4]

And? You're acting like they're fucking journeymen.
He was ranked number 2 in the LHW rankings for well over a year.
AND UFC 1 WASN'T LIVE.

There were clearly better fighters in Pride at the time, and one of them tonight just looked like crap. That was my point. And yes, UFC 1 was live on PPV.

[Lostmykeys]

Chuck got dropped.

[jimmie]

Round 2:

Nasty body kick from Keith Jardine. Jardine puts Liddell down with a huge right hand but he pops back up. Another bodykick from Jardine. Overhand right on Liddels temple now and his body is full with welts. Jardine catches Liddell with a lefthook then liddell misses a headkick. Jardine is cut and Liddell starts going wild on Jardine after he appears to slip.

Jardine 20-18

[kel]

Liddell won ther first u clown

[jimmie]

At least we all agree that Jardine is a lame not a model like Jimmie kinda guy

Didnt I say I wasnt a model :huh

[doublesuited]

Both guys suck.

[Tko4]

Daaaamn, what a crazy round. I have it tied, though I can see giving Jardine the first. He clearly won the second, though.

[Lostmykeys]

Joe Rogan gets a fuckin hard-on for leg kicks.

10-9 Jardine

[Beebs]

Looks like Jardine won't be sleeping after all.

[Blacc Jesus]

That was some of the ugliest striking I've seen in my life. Chuck lost.

[jimmie]

Round 3:

Another gross leg kick followed by a lefthook by Jardine. Jardine is making Liddell look foolish in a Kick Boxing bout now. More leg kicks while Liddell is trying to time and he just cant seem to land. More body kicks by Jardine then a right hand on Liddells chin. Lefthook then right by Jardine minute 10 left Liddell needs to go balls to the walls damnit. Liddell uppercut and headkick but nothing doing.

Jardine 30-27

Theres go Silva-Liddell agian.

[J_Roth]

That sucks. I've never been a huge Liddell fan. I really thought he would at least win this one.

[Tko4]

Hahah Jardine just outstruck Liddell. He better get the decision.

[Lostmykeys]

29-28 Jardine

but I hope he gets robbed so I get mah Vcash.

[ravtrav]

there went 1000 vCash

[jimmie]

That sucks. I've never been a huge Liddell fan. I really thought he would at least win this one.

It seems like the era of guys like Horn,Liddell,Wanderlei and Tito is over.

[Tko4]

I also have it 29-28 Jardine.

[Beebs]

Right call by the judges, but motherfucker, now we don't get Wandy vs Chuck.

[Tko4]

New LHW rankings:

1) Rampage
2) Houston Alexander!

[jimmie]

Wow I need to stop watching MMA on stream every time I do crazy upsets happen.

[Blacc Jesus]

Iceman bandwagon = Destroyed.
205 division = Fucked.

[Tko4]

Silva and Liddell was never meant to be, apparently. That makes me feel better about Shogun losing. Rampage is clearly number one now.

[Lostmykeys]

FUCK

My vCash is now officially zero.

[J_Roth]

It seems like the era of guys like Horn,Liddell,Wanderlei and Tito is over.I guess our old guys are gone now. Maybe an old timer like Frank Shamrock can come back to the UFC and dominate.

[J_Roth]

How bout Liddell vs Shogun? At least we know one will win. :rant

[jimmie]

Well my men nice being back in the forum for UFC agian dont no when we can do it agian but anyways im going for a long LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONGGGGG walk to try and find myself cause apparently I know nothing when I though I knew alot.

[Tko4]

Now who does Liddell fight? Jardine was supposed to be the "perfect" comeback fight for him. They're going to have to go out and find a 2-6 fighter for him now.

Machida and Alexander are the top contenders for the belt at this point, IMO, followed closely by Forrest. Scary, ain't it? I might be forgetting someone since my head is scrambled, but that is how I see it.

[Donut62]

1. Rampage
2. Hendo
3. Jardine
4. Forrest
5. Machida

eerr wtf

I won't even try.

[Tko4]

Well my men nice being back in the forum for UFC agian dont no when we can do it agian but anyways im going for a long LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONGGGGG walk to try and find myself cause apparently I know nothing when I though I knew alot.

Seems like the last year of PPVs have been full of that. I feel lost after every single show..

[Tko4]

1. Rampage
2. Hendo
3. Jardine
4. Forrest
5. Machida

eerr wtf

I won't even try.

I ommited Hendo because I'm hoping he goes back to 185, but yeah, he is def. top 5 if he stays at 205.

[kel]

Liddell wld beat Jardine in a rematch i think.

I think 29-28 Jardine was just about right, but i think it could have been 29-28 Liddell, well i hoped so for my 700 vcash on Liddell

[Donut62]

Well it's official, Pride was the most overrated forum love child ever. I can't wait to see Fedor lose to Tim Sylvia.

*shoots self*

[J_Roth]

Now who does Liddell fight? Jardine was supposed to be the "perfect" comeback fight for him. They're going to have to go out and find a 2-6 fighter for him now.

Machida and Alexander are the top contenders for the belt at this point, IMO, followed closely by Forrest. Scary, ain't it? I might be forgetting someone since my head is scrambled, but that is how I see it.Might kick in Evans, Bisping and Hendo. Even though Evans and Bisping aren't worthy yet.

[Beebs]

Now who does Liddell fight? Jardine was supposed to be the "perfect" comeback fight for him. They're going to have to go out and find a 2-6 fighter for him now.

Machida and Alexander are the top contenders for the belt at this point, IMO, followed closely by Forrest. Scary, ain't it? I might be forgetting someone since my head is scrambled, but that is how I see it.

Liddell should still fight Silva, both lost their last 2, somebody needs a win.

[J_Roth]

Well it's official, Pride was the most overrated forum love child ever. I can't wait to see Fedor lose to Tim Sylvia.

*shoots self*I think I'll have my first drink in two years if that happens.

[audio101]

How could you have it 29-28 for liddell, what exactly did he do in the final round to earn it??

[Donut62]

How could you have it 29-28 for liddell, what exactly did he do in the final round to earn it??

I would imagine they gave the first round to him.

[audio101]

Liddel looks like some washed up boxer now.

[Tko4]

Who gets the next title shot?

You could argue Alexander, Jardine, Machida, or Griffin, and I would think you have a strong case.

Who do you guys want to see? I say Machida or Alexander, based on the fact they've been winning recently (whereas Griff and Jardine have recent knock out losses). Alexander would be a more fun fight with Rampage, but Machida is probably the most deserving, IMO.

[audio101]

I would imagine they gave the first round to him.

That didn't answer my question.

[AJAX]

hard to say the division is upside down now! Rampage sure must be glad Shogun lost

[Tko4]

Dana has to be so pissed. I guarentee he had Shogun penciled in to face Rampage and Liddell to face Silva (with the winner of that facing the winner of Shogun/Rampage). He had three big fights, two of them for the title, ready to go at 205. Now he has shit.

[geppy]

Liddell should never consider fighting again. He is shot to hell.

[Tko4]

That didn't answer my question.

He clearly got "But it's Chuck!" points. There's no other explanation because he got his ass beat in the second round, and did nothing in the third except backup while eating leg kicks. Perhaps he won the round simply because he tried a spinning back-fist? :rofl

[Beebs]

Well, we've got a #1 205er in Rampage, Hendo somewhere in the top 5, and everything else is totally unrankable.

[Donut62]

That didn't answer my question.


Nevermind I'm on drugs and read that wrong.

[Tko4]

I just remembered we have Rashad floating around. Where does he play into all this?

[AJAX]

that wold depend on his Tito fight. For that matter if Tito wins that puts him right back in the mix as well.

[Tko4]

that wold depend on his Tito fight. For that matter if Tito wins that puts him right back in the mix as well.

Tito is toward the back of my top 10 LHW's list, but I think he could get a shot at Rampage based purely on his name. He's more well known with the fans than any of the current top 5 LHWs. As awesome a fight as Alexander/Rampage would be, it's harder to market Houston to the casual fan. With that said, I think it's bullshit to base decisions on that. Tito doesn't deserve a sniff of the belt at this point.

[AJAX]

I said it put's him right back in the mix not a title shot, but with so many guys losing nobody is head and heels above everybody, he would be 2 wins away from another shot, a win over evans and then another top guy.

[ufoalf]

Fuckin disappointed in Shogun. I dunno how beebs even has the nerve to give first round to griffing when it was clearly dominated by shogun. Shogun did good for first half of the 2nd round also and after that he was just gassed. Fuckin #1 in the world gassed... get that shit outa here. Every single pride fighter makes exactly the same mistake. They come out wanting to impress the audience by early knock or something and they gas out. When will they learn that cage is PERFECT for defensive fighters. They got all the space to run away and you'll just end up chasing them and gas out. Griffin didn't win the fight, Shogun lost the fight way before Griffin won.

Sigh, if Fedor comes to UFC and makes same exact mistake and gasses out, I will leave these forums and probably watchin MMA all together.

[Beebs]

Fuckin disappointed in Shogun. I dunno how beebs even has the nerve to give first round to griffing when it was clearly dominated by shogun. Shogun did good for first half of the 2nd round also and after that he was just gassed. Fuckin #1 in the world gassed... get that shit outa here. Every single pride fighter makes exactly the same mistake. They come out wanting to impress the audience by early knock or something and they gas out. When will they learn that cage is PERFECT for defensive fighters. They got all the space to run away and you'll just end up chasing them and gas out.

Sigh, if Fedor comes to UFC and makes same exact mistake and gasses out, I will leave these forums and probably watchin MMA all together.

Dude, really? Sometimes things just don't want the way you want them to, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[ufoalf]

Dude, really? Sometimes things just don't want the way you want them to, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Nah, I'm definetely sure. I had like 30(experienced) people with me tonight who saw it same way.

[Beebs]

Nah, I'm definetely sure. I had like 30(experienced) people with me tonight who saw it same way.

Most pbp's had it for forrest, Shogun basically had nothing, he kept turtling to roll into guard, and would get pounded before he hit the roll. The striking was even at best for shogun, each guy was in the others guard for about the same amount of time, but when shogun was there he couldn't get punches off whereas Forrest could, and Forrest didnt continually give up his back and get punched in the face for it.

[geppy]

Time for Griffin vs Jardine II.

I think Griffin vs Jardine fight was kind of a fluke. Jardine beating Liddell , was mostly to Liddell being totally shot.

[ufoalf]

Most pbp's had it for forrest, Shogun basically had nothing, he kept turtling to roll into guard, and would get pounded before he hit the roll. The striking was even at best for shogun, each guy was in the others guard for about the same amount of time, but when shogun was there he couldn't get punches off whereas Forrest could, and Forrest didnt continually give up his back and get punched in the face for it.

In second round it was the case, first round those punches landed on shogun hands. Shogun took him down and outstruck him on his feet. They _might_ have landed same amount of punches but shogun landed bigger and clearer strikes.

[ufoalf]

I'm starting to hate MMA for its unpredictability.

[AJAX]

I think it's more of matchups, if guys can make it to this level and train full time, there is no such thing as a big upset anymore. I had Liddell-Jardine a pick em fight and I said Forrest would be a hell of a fight for Shogun

[LennoxGOAT]

The constant upsets are really starting to have a negative effect on UFC. Not sure if it is a problem that can be corrected though...

[Hrak]

The constant upsets are really starting to have a negative effect on UFC. Not sure if it is a problem that can be corrected though...
True...I was thinking the same thing, its puts you off in a way because no one has really separated themselves from the pack, no ones invincible.

[scurlaruntings]

\
yep, anybody seen scurlauntings? he's prob loading his shotgun right now!:yepFucking shut it the lot of you. PRIDE will be back it lives in me! Fuck Griffin, Fuck Congo, and Fuck Gonzaga.

[scurlaruntings]

Forrest Griffin just beat Sherdog.com's #2 ranked p4p MMA fighter, Mauricio Rua, who comes in second only to the much fabled Fedor Emalienenko. Big props to Forrest.Every dog has its day. Shogun will be back and the truth WILL out.

[scurlaruntings]

Well it's official, Pride was the most overrated forum love child ever. I can't wait to see Fedor lose to Tim Sylvia.

*shoots self*Its amazing to see how fickle some fans are. Now everyones ready to proclaim PRIDE as nothing more than an overrated org and Griffin is now one of the best 205lb fighters in the world?!?!? And by the same token Rua,Wandy, and Cro cops achievements in PRIDE are just discounted as though they never happened because 2 key players have had a bad day at the office.:patsch History has already remembered Shogun and Cro Cop, it wont be as kind to there victors.:fire

[nrgetic]

Rua was gassed far too early in the fight with Griffin without good reason and so Griffin's heart and solid technique prevailed. Rua has some serious cardio work to do as he was horrendous. He gave up his back numerous times and if Griffin had superior ground skills the fight would have been over a lot sooner. I have only heard of Rua by reputation and feel none the wiser as I feel his conditioning let him down to such an extent that he failed to display what he supposedly has. Very interested in seeing him use more technical skills than he showed in this fight. Good fight by Griffin though, very solid except his lack of submission skills

[Ethan Trims]

Its amazing to see how fickle some fans are. Now everyones ready to proclaim PRIDE as nothing more than an overrated org and Griffin is now one of the best 205lb fighters in the world?!?!? And by the same token Rua,Wandy, and Cro cops achievements in PRIDE are just discounted as though they never happened because 2 key players have had a bad day at the office.:patsch History has already remembered Shogun and Cro Cop, it wont be as kind to there victors.:fire

:yep People forget so quickly that Rampage and A. Silva were pride rejects. Yet they both destroyed the Ufc poster boys.




And too everyone else, at one time pride was superior. In between 2005-6 ufc fighters started to catch up.

[Club Fighter]

Every dog has its day. Shogun will be back and the truth WILL out.

That may be, but for the time being Shogun got his ass whooped and won me some vCash!

As I often state regarding Fedor Emalienenko, no one is invincible.

[AJAX]

Its amazing to see how fickle some fans are. Now everyones ready to proclaim PRIDE as nothing more than an overrated org and Griffin is now one of the best 205lb fighters in the world?!?!? And by the same token Rua,Wandy, and Cro cops achievements in PRIDE are just discounted as though they never happened because 2 key players have had a bad day at the office.:patsch History has already remembered Shogun and Cro Cop, it wont be as kind to there victors.:fire

What you forgetting is they test for juice in the US so your hero's have suddenly lost their super power and are now human just like everyone else. A bad day at the office? pleeeeeaase don't kid yourself, CC doesn't even look like the same guy anymore and Shogun lost to a TUF fighter that you had made fun of repeaditly and don't worry Wanderleigh is going down again, without juice he's not the axe murder anymore he's the fly swater.

[nervousxtian]

I think the Ocatagon vs Ring has a lot to do with Pride guys not doing as good in UFC events.

I much prefer the ring to the octagon, as I hate the way the octagon can be used for defensive purposes.

Still, the Pride guys have fared very poorly in the UFC so far, does give some credence to the juice arguments.

[Beebs]

Every dog has its day. Shogun will be back and the truth WILL out.

The truth is out right now.

If you removed yourself from belonging to a fictional "team" that no longer exists for that matter, you would see this.

[scurlaruntings]

What you forgetting is they test for juice in the US so your hero's have suddenly lost their super power and are now human just like everyone else. A bad day at the office? pleeeeeaase don't kid yourself, CC doesn't even look like the same guy anymore and Shogun lost to a TUF fighter that you had made fun of repeaditly and don't worry Wanderleigh is going down again, without juice he's not the axe murder anymore he's the fly swater.Wow steroids is truly a wonder drug! Shit it even gives fighters skills! Get of that rhetoric BS it makes no dam sense.
Lets keep it real.The PRIDE fighters so far that have lost that were big guns are just 2.Thats right 2 names and everyone seems to be ready to write off PRIDE as though it was a fad.Lets compare Cro Cop and Rua`s resume to that of Kongo Gonzaga and Griffin. Actually lets not because you know what the case in point already is.:good

As far as i can see the cage/ring makes little diffrence.A fight is a fight and any trained fighter should be able to fight under any circumstance.The essential diffrences are the rules. A big part of Rua`s game was his foot stomps soccer kicks and knees on a grounded opponent.This was pretty much a Chute Boxe trade mark and has been taken away in the UFC.Wandy will also have a similar problem.Despite the signing i have already said Wandy may have seen better days as his last loss`s in PRIDE were not good at all, so realistically i dont think anyone will be surprised even if he does loose his opening bout.

Last nights fight reminded me of Gomi vs Diaz.Gomi like Rua came into the bout undertrained completely uninterested and gassed in the first round.I mean Rua was used to fighting 10min 1st rounds!!!!! NO ONE on planet earth thinks that Diaz is a better fighter than Gomi.The same goes for Griffin Rua.Like i said every dog has its day.Griffin fought like he always does which is 100% everytime credit too him but Rua will be back thats the truth.

[scurlaruntings]

The truth is out right now.

If you removed yourself from belonging to a fictional "team" that no longer exists for that matter, you would see this.Yeah your right.Griffin is the best 205lb fighter in the world now, Gonzaga is the truth, and Kongo will beat Fedor.I can see it all now.PRIDE was a sham, the OWGP wasnt real and all the fighters are on miracle juice (i mean steroids) which makes the game so much better.Because the NSAC test for it in the UFC that means ALL fighters are clean and thus are better than PRIDE fighters.Thank you for that moment of clarity.

[AJAX]

no one is saying steroids are everything, but too say it doesn't help in a big way is just ignorant.

[demzor]

Its time to give it up
Pride guys were way overrated.

This isnt just Crocop and Rua.. though if that doesnt spell it out for you.. you should get your head checked.

How about Diaz destroying Gomi. (and yes.. Diaz is better than Gomi. I knew Nick would win that fight.)
Jake Obrien(WHO?) over Heath Herring
Joe Stevenson and Kenny Florian over Mishima
Jeff Monson choking out Fujita
Frank Trigg over Misaki
Arlovski over Werdum
Clay Guida over Marcus Aurelio
Ninja Rua getting DESTROYED by Robbie Lawler
Machida clearly outclassing Nakamura


Yes Rampage and Anderson Silva are doing well... but Anderson is also fighting in the weakest division. Don't take that the wrong way. Anderson is clearly incredibly talented. I think he has improved a ton on the ground since pride. Hell.. Anderson hasn't even been in Pride since 2004.

Rampage I've always thought was made for the cage.


The Pride myth was that their fighters were far and away better than the guys in the UFC. People acted like Heath frickin Herring would walk in and destroy the HW division. Its clearly not true. Look at the facts. The fighters are barely on par.

[scurlaruntings]

no one is saying steroids are everything, but too say it doesn't help in a big way is just ignorant.When did i say it didnt help? I mean why the pedanticism and general fickleness? First UFC huggers asert that PRIDE aint shit and now the accusation is there all on steroids?!?!? I mean WTF:patsch

Like i said before history will be kind to CC and Rua and there places as MMA legends cannot be discounted.No one is denying LL or Tyson hall of fame status because of there respective loss`s to Douglas and Mccall. The same goes for Rua and CC. The PRIDE fighters were clearly used to a diffrent system,rule, skill set, and fan base.This takes some time to adjust to in the UFC. No one in there right mind thinks Griffin point blank is a better fighter than Rua considering the biggest name on his resume is Stephan Bonnar and a loss to Jardine, whereas Rua has beaten the likes of Randleman,Arona,Overeem,Nakumura,Rampage, and little Nog.Thats a DEEP resume for a guy so young. Please dont tell me you UFC guys have that short memories.:patsch

[AJAX]

I think the whole point of this is that your the one who talked down about UFC fighters as if they weren't worthy enough to be in the same ring as a pride guy. And no one can take away from any of the accomplishesments of the pride guys. But if I would have told you the original TUF guy would make shogun tap out you would have said they shouldn't even allow the fight.

[scurlaruntings]

I think the whole point of this is that your the one who talked down about UFC fighters as if they weren't worthy enough to be in the same ring as a pride guy. And no one can take away from any of the accomplishesments of the pride guys. But if I would have told you the original TUF guy would make shogun tap out you would have said they shouldn't even allow the fight.No one thought Mike Tyson would loose to Buster Douglas so stop talking shit.I never talked down no fighter. I said Liddell wouldnt hold a candle to PRIDE and i was right, he got his ass handed to him again by Rampage and has now lost to Jardine. I said Franklin wouldnt hold a candle to PRIDE and i was right Silva whupped him like a small boy and Hendo is now in the mix at 85 and 205. As for the heavy division it point blank couldnt hold a candle to PRIDES division when it was current. I mean fuck me there heavyweight champ was Tim Syvlia!??!

NO ONE Including me has ever said UFC fighters were shit. Yeah i was a PRIDE fanboy but im an MMA fan first and certainly not fickle enough to think that guys like Franklin Liddell and Hughes are nobodies because thats BS.So get it right or give it a rest.

[codeman99998]

Predictions

Diego Sanchez UD Jon Fitch

Shogun sub Griffin in 2

Liddel KO1 Jardine.

Not trying to be a dick, but damn, that's like, exactly the opposite of what actually happened.

Jon Fitch decision Diego

Griffin sub Shofun in 3

Jardine decision Chuck

The only one of those upsets I thought would happen was Fitch, but in my mind it wouldn't have even been an upset. Fitch is the real deal.

[codeman99998]

Its amazing to see how fickle some fans are. Now everyones ready to proclaim PRIDE as nothing more than an overrated org and Griffin is now one of the best 205lb fighters in the world?!?!? And by the same token Rua,Wandy, and Cro cops achievements in PRIDE are just discounted as though they never happened because 2 key players have had a bad day at the office.:patsch History has already remembered Shogun and Cro Cop, it wont be as kind to there victors.:fire
Pride IS an overrated org. Once their fighters can't juice anymore, they suck. Somehow Crocop just HAPPENS to not have the strength and muscle endurance he used to. The same with Shogun, for one of the most important fights of his career. Without the roids, Pride fighters just aren't as good.

And to clarify.

Forrest is better than Shogun. Forrest conditions himself correctly and doesn't use steroids to artificially make himself better. Forrest choked OUT Rua. I would have to not be in my right mind to think Rua is better.

If I take a High school football team that goes undefeated, they might look unstoppable. The San Fransisco 49ers last year looked like they could easily be trounced by anyone. But when you get the 49ers to play the HS team, you know what happens.

[scurlaruntings]

Pride IS an overrated org. Once their fighters can't juice anymore, they suck. Somehow Crocop just HAPPENS to not have the strength and muscle endurance he used to. The same with Shogun, for one of the most important fights of his career. Without the roids, Pride fighters just aren't as good.

And to clarify.

Forrest is better than Shogun. Forrest conditions himself correctly and doesn't use steroids to artificially make himself better. Forrest choked OUT Rua. I would have to not be in my right mind to think Rua is better.

If I take a High school football team that goes undefeated, they might look unstoppable. The San Fransisco 49ers last year looked like they could easily be trounced by anyone. But when you get the 49ers to play the HS team, you know what happens.Let me try and guess your age from your post..... yep got it you must be about 12/13. Your post is the classic mentality of uneducated UFC fans.

Its interesting to note that no one on this board said PRIDE fighters were overrated when Rampage destroyed Liddell and Silva did likewise to Rich. Now that 2 fighters from PRIDE have lost by UFC fan reasoning PRIDE fighters are overrated and on steroids.Thats some sound reasoning:rofl

[codeman99998]

Let me try and guess your age from your post..... yep got it you must be about 12/13. Your post is the classic mentality of uneducated UFC fans.

Its interesting to note that no one on this board said PRIDE fighters were overrated when Rampage destroyed Liddell and Silva did likewise to Rich. Now that 2 fighters from PRIDE have lost by UFC fan reasoning PRIDE fighters are overrated and on steroids.Thats some sound reasoning:rofl
First all, hasn't it always been clear that Liddell's biggest threat would be a good striker? Rampage has very good striking, and hell, I thought he had Lidell's # anyways after having watched their first fight.

Cro Cop and Shogun are both extremely skilled fighters, amazingly skilled. Then they come into the UFC and suddenly they are significantly weaker and have no endurance.

Cro Cop was fighting Gonzaga for a chance at Couture. Rua could have definitely moved straight to Rampage after beating Forrest. These were HUGE fights that ANY professional fighter could get up for.

But, their conditioning was terrible?

Shit dude, it's not that bad. I thought the Seahawks had a chance of beating the Steelers in the super bowl, because they looked so amazingly impressive...

...but they are in the NFC.

The truth is, I might be wrong about this. All I am saying is, with less similar competition and a lax juicing policy, pride fans need to consider the fact that Pride fighters might not be all they think.

But really, it doesn't even matter. NOBODY is a pride fighter anymore, not Cro Cop, not Silva, not Rua. They are all UFC fighters now...

What really matters is that Forrest dominated Rua and RNCed him. Forrest is better until proven otherwise. If beating a man in a fair match doesn't prove you are better, why do they even compete?

[scurlaruntings]

First all, hasn't it always been clear that Liddell's biggest threat would be a good striker? Rampage has very good striking, and hell, I thought he had Lidell's # anyways after having watched their first fight.

Cro Cop and Shogun are both extremely skilled fighters, amazingly skilled. Then they come into the UFC and suddenly they are significantly weaker and have no endurance.

Cro Cop was fighting Gonzaga for a chance at Couture. Rua could have definitely moved straight to Rampage after beating Forrest. These were HUGE fights that ANY professional fighter could get up for.

But, their conditioning was terrible?Yup it was always apparent.. i see it all now.. hence why Liddell has some excellent wins over Overeem Vitor and Couture.And yes i included Randy because he boxed as an amateur in the army and his boxing fundamentals are better than Chucks.

CC and Shogun ARE NOT blanket examples of ALL that presents PRIDE.

And for the record CC lost to Gonzaga for the same reasons he lost to Randleman.His conditioning wasnt in question. As for Shogun i sincerely doubt fighting for a diffrent org is going to make your cardio less:patsch

[codeman99998]

Yup it was always apparent.. i see it all now.. hence why Liddell has some excellent wins over Overeem Vitor and Couture.And yes i included Randy because he boxed as an amateur in the army and his boxing fundamentals are better than Chucks.

CC and Shogun ARE NOT blanket examples of ALL that presents PRIDE.

And for the record CC lost to Gonzaga for the same reasons he lost to Randleman.His conditioning wasnt in question. As for Shogun i sincerely doubt fighting for a diffrent org is going to make your cardio less:patsch

You can't seriously dispute that the biggest threat to Chuck Liddell is a good standup fighter. For like, the past 4 years Chuck has fought guys whose main deal was grappling...

If fighting for a different organization won't lessen your cardio, why was it lessened? Juicing doesn't ONLY mean anabolic steroids, after all.

Pride is finished, it doesn't matter. Why are you not able to just accept the fact that Forrest Griffin is better than Shogun, and Kongo is better than Cro Cop. I'm not saying all Pride fighters are worse, I'm just saying that it is clear that the way people would compare the fighters from the two orgs was obviously flawed, and in light of what has happened, we need to re-evaluate some of the fighters from Pride.