Why is Roberto Duran top 10 all time P4P material?

[China_hand_Joe]

In your (the classic forum posters) opinions why is he? I believe he is too, but want to see if you give the correct reasons for him being so.

If you give incorrect reasons, I will hopefully demolish some more boxing mythology.

So why is Roberto amongst the top 10 ever?

[Lostmykeys]

I give him props for fighting much bigger men when he could have stayed in lower divisions, he was a true warrior.

[JimboDs]

He dominated his natural weight class for 12 years losing only one bout to a man whom he knocked out in their next two fights. The lightweight division isn't known for having a lot of knockouts, but Duran knocked numerous quality fighters cold with one punch.

As a lightweight, Duran was practically invincible for a LONG time. To me, that is p4p greatness alone. Everything he did after that in heavier divisions was just icing on the cake, only adding to his greatness.

Take away 'No Mas' and I think most people would have him in the top 3 all time p4p

If you want to talk physical attributes: I've never seen anyone more relaxed in the ring, nor have I seen anyone who was as much a 'natural fighter' as Duran was. All you have to do is watch him at his best to understand.

[doublesuited]

Because you touch yourself at night.

[Robbi]

The lightweight division isn't known for having a lot of knockouts, but Duran knocked numerous quality fighters cold with one punch.

Duran was not a one punch KO artist at lightweight. Most of the knockouts while defending his title came after 10 rounds. I'm not saying he couldn't punch and most of his opponents were stopped on their feet or by cuts. But Duran wasn't the same type of puncher at lightweight as Hearns was at welterweight. His sickening KO's mainly happened when he wore his opponents down, then knocked them out brutally down the stretch.

Lets not forget about his style when rating his power. At the end of his lightweight reign he became more patient and measured, also more defensively aware. But throughout most of his career at lightweight he was extremely aggressive, and hit his opponents more often than not.

To sum it up fairly and accurately. Duran was a hell of a puncher at lightweight, but he never had chilling power like a Hearns or Tyson when both those guys punched at the peak of their powers.

[JimboDs]

Duran was not a one punch KO artist at lightweight. Most of the knockouts while defending his title came after 10 rounds. I'm not saying he couldn't punch and most of his opponents were stopped on their feet or by cuts. But Duran wasn't the same type of puncher at lightweight as Hearns was at welterweight. His sickening KO's mainly happened when he wore his opponents down, then knocked them out brutally down the stretch.

To sum it up fairly and accurately. Duran was a hell of a puncher at lightweight, but he never had chilling power like a Hearns or Tyson.

I don't think we necessarily disagree here. I think against a faster fighter, you really need to wear down your opponents defense to catch him right.

A lot Duran's knockouts were in fact triggered by single punches and not combinations.

[dmille]

Leonard-Duran 2

[Robbi]

In your (the classic forum posters) opinions why is he? I believe he is too, but want to see if you give the correct reasons for him being so.

If you give incorrect reasons, I will hopefully demolish some more boxing mythology.

So why is Roberto amongst the top 10 ever?

How many other fighters in boxing history have reigned in their prime weight class for 7 years, yet went on to win titles in 3 more divisions?. Duran also missed out the light-welterweight division, jumping right up to welterweight.

Longevity. Duran stayed at the top for so long, and setbacks came as he moved away from his prime weight. The rematch with Leonard was the first serious blow, and he would later state at the post fight press conference he would retire from the sport. Some people back in Panama threw stones at his house windows and called him a homosexual. His promoter, Don King, threw him in the garbage trash after the "no mas" fiasco.

It wasn't until he signed with Bob Arum that his career gained momentum again. Arum showed trust and belief in him. Duran got the breakthrough win he needed when he beat Cuevas. This win set up the title shot against Moore at 154lbs, which was a fight that Duran was the underdog. And with the win over Moore, he further enhanched his credibility to everyone in the sport.

Duran was clearly not a natural middleweight, but Hagler was also with Arum, so it was a fight that made sense even though Duran was not given a prayer. Another superfight for Duran, and a first for Hagler. Marketable, with plenty of dollars on the table. Duran was the only person to take Hagler the distance in all his successful middleweight title defenses over a 7 year reign. Not bad going for a fighter operating 25lbs above his prime weight.

The Hagler defeat was expected, so it was hardly a career threatning loss, especially when you consider Duran defended himself well over the 15 rounds while losing a close decision, and he never took a serious beating which could have turned him into a shot fighter. Part of the reason he was able to compete at the very top for so long, ring generalship and defense.

Hearns was next, and that was the end of him. Knocked out cold by a thudding right hand, with many people over the years saying it was the most chilling knockout they had ever seen.

Duran came back 5 years later to floor and beat Barkley on points. Enough said.

[cross_trainer]

Because he knocked out a horse, obviously.

[brooklyn1550]

Robbi, you summed it up perfectly. Whether it was the answer China_hand_Joe is looking for is another story:D

[tgchungmj]

Robbi, you summed it up perfectly. Whether it was the answer China_hand_Joe is looking for is another story:D

I think china joe is playing at will in this forum. He knows nothing at all about boxing and is deteriorating the qualities of this fourm.

[McGrain]

Because he knocked out a horse, obviously.

:lol:

[Maxmomer]

Because he breathes lasers and pisses rainbows. Or is that just a myth...?

[India_Foot_Bob]

Because he breathes lasers and pisses rainbows. Or is that just a myth...?

No, that is true. I saw it personally -fullstop-

[China_hand_Joe]

He dominated his natural weight class for 12 years losing only one bout to a man whom he knocked out in their next two fights. The lightweight division isn't known for having a lot of knockouts, but Duran knocked numerous quality fighters cold with one punch.

As a lightweight, Duran was practically invincible for a LONG time. To me, that is p4p greatness alone. Everything he did after that in heavier divisions was just icing on the cake, only adding to his greatness.
If you want to talk physical attributes: I've never seen anyone more relaxed in the ring, nor have I seen anyone who was as much a 'natural fighter' as Duran was. All you have to do is watch him at his best to understand.

That is absolutely correct.

Everything he did at higher weights enchanced his greatness. But in terms of how good P4P Duran was, his win over an off-day Leonard for example means very little as that version of Duran was so inferior to the fighter he was at his best weight.

Joe Calzaghe and Roberto Duran are top 10 all time P4P fighters for the same identical reasons.

The last paragraph also highlights the parrellels.

I rate Duran immensely for the being the lightweight his was. Beating Leonard is barely even a footnote when judging him however.

Does everyone agree it is fair to rate Calzaghe stupidly high for same reasons -questionmark-



It is illogical to rank Duran top 10 and not Calzaghe, perhaps even impossible.

[Luigi1985]

CHJ is an idiot, the above post is one of the dumbest I've ever seen, ever, even from him. Worst logic ever. What makes me laugh the most is when people claim he actually has knowledge, but is just trying to be funny. NO! He has no knowledge, and he's not even funny!

Joe, you've said before you have no problem with me, well I have a problem with you, you're a shit poster, so learn to hate me as well.

Harsh? Maybe, but it needed to be said, people not to stop giving him props for this shit like he's some kind of genius.


Your criticism is not "harsh", it´s just realistic and justified... :good



IMO Duran is a bit overrated here on ESB, but that doesn´t change the fact that he´s one of the greatest boxers ever...

[Robbi]

CHJ is an idiot, the above post is one of the dumbest I've ever seen, ever, even from him. Worst logic ever. What makes me laugh the most is when people claim he actually has knowledge, but is just trying to be funny. NO! He has no knowledge, and he's not even funny!

Joe, you've said before you have no problem with me, well I have a problem with you, you're a shit poster, so learn to hate me as well.

Harsh? Maybe, but it needed to be said, people not to stop giving him props for this shit like he's some kind of genius.

Sweet Pea. Thats a bit harsh. You have actually wasted your own time as you could have posted about boxing, rather than someone you have a problem with.

Saying that, CHJ does talk nonsense, especially when he reckons Mayweather beat De La Hoya 10 rounds to 2.

[China_hand_Joe]

Joe, you've said before you have no problem with me, well I have a problem with you, you're a shit poster, so learn to hate me as well.


Our relationship is like that of a pupil and a good teacher. At first the pupil hates their teacher, for forcing them to think. But over time the pupils respect for their teacher grows. The pupil comes to appreciate the knowledge and help the teacher has given them.

The teacher doesn't randomly return the hate out of impatience.

In what way do you consider the Duran, Calzaghe comparison unfair?

[Mantequilla]

Calzaghe is garbage.

[mcvey]

In your (the classic forum posters) opinions why is he? I believe he is too, but want to see if you give the correct reasons for him being so.

If you give incorrect reasons, I will hopefully demolish some more boxing mythology.

So why is Roberto amongst the top 10 ever?
Leaving aside his record and style ,which will no doubt be covered by others in this thread,he had as much natural "ring sense" as any fighter that ever lived ,imo.ie when to apply presure ,when to stall,fantastic head movement, very good inside, very good at mid range,great "geometrical" sense,ie ,he was all ways in front of you,as opposed to thre Liston types who plodded after their foes,ring smarts ,he had it!

[Luigi1985]

Guys, vote me to a moderator here, and I promise you that I bowdlerize this forum from clowns like China_ hand_ Joe... ;-)

[cross_trainer]

Guys, vote me to a moderator here, and I promise you that I bowdlerize this forum from clowns like China_ hand_ Joe... ;-)

To tell the truth, I'm contemplating moving all of these Calzaghe threads to the lounge unless they start getting somewhere. They're like Hank/Revolver threads in miniature, albeit with better humor.

[Luigi1985]

To tell the truth, I'm contemplating moving all of these Calzaghe threads to the lounge unless they start getting somewhere. They're like Hank/Revolver threads in miniature, albeit with better humor.


I hoped but knew that you understand the irony of my last post, that was of course no criticism for the mods, but to be honest, such posters like the "funny guy with the boxing knowledge", who started now almost everyday such stupid threads, really get on my nerves now. IMO your suggestion with the Lounge is good...

[Luigi1985]

You know, humour and having fun is good and very important, but I for example prefer it to have it in reality, not here. When I´m here, I only want to transpose my boxing knowledge with others and want to discuss about boxing...

[cross_trainer]

I already like India Foot Bob better than China Hand Joe.

Maybe I should make an alternate screenname, something like Cambodia_Ear_Wilbur.

:hey

Go for it. A little more lunacy can't hurt, more or less. :scaredas:

[buzzsaw]

Since he won the Lightweight Title in 72’ Duran was such an important part of the Boxing World that I grew up with. He dominated the lightweight division and was one of the few fighters “period” who could steal some of Ali’s thunder during the 70’s. Skipping the Jr Welters he stepped up to 147 to outbox former Champ Carlos Palomino and then derailed the Sugar Ray Leonard bandwagon and created a rivalry that we as fans live for. He was no stranger to the low points in his professional life “No Mas” and being on the losing end of the “82’ Upset of The Year” had to motivate him for his title winning destruction of Davey Moore for the Jr Middle Belt. Neither losing by decision to the Marvelous One nor being destroyed by The Hitman stopped him from beating The Blade and winning The Middleweight Title. He was exciting, crafty, passionate, resilient, and most definitely one of the greatest boxers P4P of All Time.

[China_hand_Joe]

It is in my personal opinion Duran's ability to move up through the weights is often overrated.

His second fight with Leonard is probably the better indicator of how useful he was at welter. Though that is what you'd expect when you take away one of a lightweight monster's greatest assets.

[cross_trainer]

His second fight with Leonard is probably the better indicator of how useful he was at welter. Though that is what you'd expect when you take away one of a lightweight monster's greatest assets.

The assets taken away were drive, motivation, and good physical condition. It was ultimately Duran's fault that he showed up out of shape, but the fact that he was out of shape remains the case.

Leonard was hardly disinterested for the first fight, though. He merely chose the wrong strategy, and Duran obliged the greatest welterweight of the 80's by beating him. That, and the close performance against Hagler (another of the greatest fighters of his generation) seals the deal on Duran's abilities--it's a combination of his lightweight performances and his post-lightweight career rather than either/or.

[john garfield]

Our relationship is like that of a pupil and a good teacher. At first the pupil hates their teacher, for forcing them to think. But over time the pupils respect for their teacher grows. The pupil comes to appreciate the knowledge and help the teacher has given them.

The teacher doesn't randomly return the hate out of impatience.

In what way do you consider the Duran, Calzaghe comparison unfair?

Would you rather walk to school or carry your lunch, ChJ?

[Robbi]

The assets taken away were drive, motivation, and good physical condition. It was ultimately Duran's fault that he showed up out of shape, but the fact that he was out of shape remains the case.

Leonard was hardly disinterested for the first fight, though. He merely chose the wrong strategy, and Duran obliged the greatest welterweight of the 80's by beating him. That, and the close performance against Hagler (another of the greatest fighters of his generation) seals the deal on Duran's abilities--it's a combination of his lightweight performances and his post-lightweight career rather than either/or.

Its great that you mention the Hagler performance, even though it was a defeat. Hagler was in his prime at the time he fought Duran, which would more than likely be the opinion of everyone. However, some come to the conclusion his prime years were during the very early 80's. This is simply because what happened when Hagler fought Duran. People say to themselves, "It couldn't have been Hagler's prime if he was taken the distance by a natural lightweight", thus knocking his prime back a couple of years, 81-82. Well I'm afraid it was his prime. This is supported by Hagler's performance prior to meeting Duran, when he never put a foot wrong the night he totally outclassed Sibson.

You could say that Sibson was to Hagler, as Williams was to Ali. A career defining performance from each, on a night when everything came together. Ali and Hagler looked at the top of their games.

[cuchulain]

That is absolutely correct.

Everything he did at higher weights enchanced his greatness. But in terms of how good P4P Duran was, his win over an off-day Leonard for example means very little as that version of Duran was so inferior to the fighter he was at his best weight.


Leonard was in peak shape and well prepared, no off-day there. He didn't employ the best of strategy, but that doesn't make it an off day.


Now, in Leonard- Duran 2, Roberto definitely DID have an off-day.

[Holmes' Jab]

Because he knocked out a horse, obviously.

:D

[Holmes' Jab]

How many other fighters in boxing history have reigned in their prime weight class for 7 years, yet went on to win titles in 3 more divisions?. Duran also missed out the light-welterweight division, jumping right up to welterweight.

Longevity. Duran stayed at the top for so long, and setbacks came as he moved away from his prime weight. The rematch with Leonard was the first serious blow, and he would later state at the post fight press conference he would retire from the sport. Some people back in Panama threw stones at his house windows and called him a homosexual. His promoter, Don King, threw him in the garbage trash after the "no mas" fiasco.

It wasn't until he signed with Bob Arum that his career gained momentum again. Arum showed trust and belief in him. Duran got the breakthrough win he needed when he beat Cuevas. This win set up the title shot against Moore at 154lbs, which was a fight that Duran was the underdog. And with the win over Moore, he further enhanched his credibility to everyone in the sport.

Duran was clearly not a natural middleweight, but Hagler was also with Arum, so it was a fight that made sense even though Duran was not given a prayer. Another superfight for Duran, and a first for Hagler. Marketable, with plenty of dollars on the table. Duran was the only person to take Hagler the distance in all his successful middleweight title defenses over a 7 year reign. Not bad going for a fighter operating 25lbs above his prime weight.

The Hagler defeat was expected, so it was hardly a career threatning loss, especially when you consider Duran defended himself well over the 15 rounds while losing a close decision, and he never took a serious beating which could have turned him into a shot fighter. Part of the reason he was able to compete at the very top for so long, ring generalship and defense.

Hearns was next, and that was the end of him. Knocked out cold by a thudding right hand, with many people over the years saying it was the most chilling knockout they had ever seen.

Duran came back 5 years later to floor and beat Barkley on points. Enough said.

Excellent post, there's nothing that immediately springs to mind which could be added to this. Well done. :good

[Street Lethal]

That is absolutely correct.

Everything he did at higher weights enchanced his greatness. But in terms of how good P4P Duran was, his win over an off-day Leonard for example means very little as that version of Duran was so inferior to the fighter he was at his best weight.

Joe Calzaghe and Roberto Duran are top 10 all time P4P fighters for the same identical reasons.

The last paragraph also highlights the parrellels.

I rate Duran immensely for the being the lightweight his was. Beating Leonard is barely even a footnote when judging him however.

Does everyone agree it is fair to rate Calzaghe stupidly high for same reasons -questionmark-



It is illogical to rank Duran top 10 and not Calzaghe, perhaps even impossible.
This not even close to a logical argument. You went through all this so that you could write this piece of nonsense?

[Street Lethal]

And Duran didn't just beat Leonard, he beat him easily in rounds won. The fight was competitive, but I thought Duran bagged about 11.
I agree. But a lot of people want to argue that it was a close fight. They were so shocked to see a lightweight outclass the second coming of Ali that they had to invent a fable.

[mightyd40]

IMO Duran is a bit overrated here on ESB, but that doesn´t change the fact that he´s one of the greatest boxers ever...
this is my feeling as well.....hes great but i personally dont consider him top 10....maybe close but not top 10

[cross_trainer]

Its great that you mention the Hagler performance, even though it was a defeat. Hagler was in his prime at the time he fought Duran, which would more than likely be the opinion of everyone. However, some come to the conclusion his prime years were during the very early 80's. This is simply because what happened when Hagler fought Duran. People say to themselves, "It couldn't have been Hagler's prime if he was taken the distance by a natural lightweight", thus knocking his prime back a couple of years, 81-82. Well I'm afraid it was his prime. This is supported by Hagler's performance prior to meeting Duran, when he never put a foot wrong the night he totally outclassed Sibson.

You could say that Sibson was to Hagler, as Williams was to Ali. A career defining performance from each, on a night when everything came together. Ali and Hagler looked at the top of their games.

And isn't it coincidental that two of the four best fighters of the 80's just happened to "fight the wrong fight" against Duran when he was focused and at the top of his game? :think

[Robbi]

And isn't it coincidental that two of the four best fighters of the 80's just happened to "fight the wrong fight" against Duran when he was focused and at the top of his game? :think

Well we could dissect each of those fights all night long. I'm pressuming the other fight you care to mention was Duran's win over Leonard in Montreal. What happened, happened. If Leonard boxed on that particular night we'll never know if he'd have won. He did adjust during the rematch, but Duran wasn't the same fighter. So where does the arguement end?.

Well, the reason Hagler was pushed the entire distance wasn't just because he fought the wrong fight, but also part of the reason was he had a very good ring general in front of him. Duran's strategy fooled Hagler, so lets give him some credit. If Duran decided to trade power punches with Hagler from the opening bell, would Hagler have won?. Maybe, maybe not. Whatever anyone thinks, it's an opinion at the end of the day.

The only part from below that can be questioned of being factual, were they in their primes. I think so.

Duran beat a prime Leonard.

And Duran took a prime Hagler the distance.

[cross_trainer]

Well we could dissect each of those fights all night long. I'm pressuming the other fight you care to mention was Duran's win over Leonard in Montreal. What happened, happened. If Leonard boxed on that particular night we'll never know if he'd have won. He did adjust during the rematch, but Duran wasn't the same fighter. So where does the arguement end?.

Well, the reason Hagler was pushed the entire distance wasn't just because he fought the wrong fight, but also part of the reason was he had a very good ring general in front of him. Duran's strategy fooled Hagler, so lets give him some credit. If Duran decided to trade power punches with Hagler from the opening bell, would Hagler have won?. Maybe, maybe not. Whatever anyone thinks, it's an opinion at the end of the day.

The only part from below that can be questioned of being factual, were they in their primes. I think so.

Duran beat a prime Leonard.

And Duran took a prime Hagler the distance.

My point was that both Hagler and Leonard supposedly "fought the wrong fight" against Duran (in part at least) because Duran made them fight the wrong fight.

[Robbi]

My point was that both Hagler and Leonard supposedly "fought the wrong fight" against Duran (in part at least) because Duran made them fight the wrong fight.

Yeah, I knew where you were coming from. Agreed.

However, there is a difference. Leonard came into the fight with Duran and fought exactly the way he expected, unlike Hagler who thought he was in for a war. Leonard addressed the press and said he'd stand flat foooted and beat Duran at his own game. Leonard knew what to expect from Duran that night.

The Hagler fight is slightly different, as everyone expected Duran to come forward aggressively, and he done the opposite. Many people picked Hagler to KO Duran based on how they expected Duran to fight, which was aggressively, thus playing right into physically stronger Hagler's hands.