Liston Holyfield

[NickHudson]

Who takes it?

One of the most 'naturally' built HWs of all time, versus one of the most 'artificial.'

One of the most intimidating HWs of all time, versus one who refused to be intimidated.

Both smart and skilled fighters. Anyone think Holyfield can grind a win out over big, bad, Sonny?

[ChrisPontius]

I think Holyfield can grind out a win over big, bad, Sonny. Actually he wasn't that big. Holyfield's average heavyweight opponent was more than 6'0 204-212lb.

Holyfield can easily lose it if he goes toe to toe or has one of his breakdowns like the Moorer I or Bowe III fights. But if he comes in well, sticking to his gameplan, like he did vs Tyson and Bowe II, he can definitly pull it off. He can outspeed Sonny everywhere (feet, hands, upperbody) and pick his counters wisely.
Evander not being intimidated by Liston is also gonna work in his favor.

On his best day, with a trainer like Emmanuel Steward who keeps him at his gameplan and not slugging, i think he can beat Liston.

[Marciano Frazier]

Yes, I do think Holyfield could beat Liston. He had the nerves, durability and ring savvy to stand up to Sonny's offense, he had enough speed, power, caginess and fundamentals to win rounds, and he wouldn't be intimidated by Liston and would have a considerable mental edge. So long as he fights his fight, I'm liking Holyfied by late stoppage.

[Mendoza]

I think Liston wins here. Holyfield is a tad over rated. Holy could be out slugged or out boxed. Liston could win either way. Unless Sonny the dog shows up, he's got too much for Holyfield. If Holyfield thinks he could stand and trade with Liston, he's mistaken.

Holyfield had a speed edge, but Liston defense is much better than Riddick Bowe's.

[cuchulain]

I think Liston wins here. Holyfield is a tad over rated. Holy could be out slugged or out boxed. Liston could win either way. Unless Sonny the dog shows up, he's got too much for Holyfield. If Holyfield thinks he could stand and trade with Liston, he's mistaken.

Holyfield had a speed edge, but Liston defense is much better than Riddick Bowe's.


This says it all.

[NickHudson]

I concede that Liston may have a better defence than Bowe, but is the difference really as large as you imply here?

I thought prime Bowe had good reflexes, rolled very well with punches, and being so much larger than Liston could smother Holyfield better inside if he chose to.

I do agree with you that Liston would win, with Holyfield putting up a very game losing effort.

I think Liston wins here. Holyfield is a tad over rated. Holy could be out slugged or out boxed. Liston could win either way. Unless Sonny the dog shows up, he's got too much for Holyfield. If Holyfield thinks he could stand and trade with Liston, he's mistaken.

Holyfield had a speed edge, but Liston defense is much better than Riddick Bowe's.

[Mendoza]

I concede that Liston may have a better defence than Bowe, but is the difference really as large as you imply here?

I thought prime Bowe had good reflexes, rolled very well with punches, and being so much larger than Liston could smother Holyfield better inside if he chose to.

I do agree with you that Liston would win, with Holyfield putting up a very game losing effort.


I believe there is a noticeable difference in defense between Liston and Bowe. Liston has pretty good defense. Liston moved his head, and kept his guard high. Liston was one of those naturally compact fighters in stature. He had big arms and fists. Getting to him was not that easy. Of Course Liston's natural power and weaponry often kept the other guy on the defensive from the get go. Bowe's main weakness was lack of defense.

[Holmes' Jab]

Holyfield, by the most wafer-thin of decisions. This fight would most likely be an absolute barnstormer. :good

[Bo Bo Olson]

Listons long arms and his power jab will do wonders. Machen was fast Williams had power and was fast back then....
Liston had a very good right hand too. Liston at 209 pounds and age of Patterson 1.

[anut]

well listons a bully......and holy wouldnt flinch........holyfield honestly would knock sonny liston out......shit lewis is a powerpuncher like liston he couldnt put away a 37 yr old holy....no way liston dents holy....holys awsume balance /fast combos/counterpunching....would beffudle liston......9 rd tko win foer holy

[Rubber Warrior]

Who takes it?

One of the most 'naturally' built HWs of all time, versus one of the most 'artificial.'

One of the most intimidating HWs of all time, versus one who refused to be intimidated.

Both smart and skilled fighters. Anyone think Holyfield can grind a win out over big, bad, Sonny?
One of the most competitive and courageous heayweights of all time versus one that could be convinced to capitulate.

One of the most durable heavyweights of all time versus one that suddenly came apart on three occasions.

It's really a matter of approach. ;)

[ChrisPontius]

One of the most durable heavyweights of all time versus one that suddenly came apart on three occasions.



You're talking about Liston now?

While Holyfield didn't suddenly came apart as Liston did, he did have his fair share of off-nights so to speak. Bowe III/Moorer/Cooper.

[garymcfall]

Holyfield takes it if he's on his very best form, anything less than that and Liston will beat him.

[McGrain]

On his best day, with a trainer like Emmanuel Steward who keeps him at his gameplan and not slugging, i think he can beat Liston.

I see this thing quite a lot in Liston match ups for some reason.

I wonder why nobody tries to put an uber-trainer in Liston's corner?

I pick Sonny in case you haven't guessed. Liston is better outside, inside, and at mid range for me. What will Hollfyields plan be?

If we are talking peak for peak here, he is probably also the best composite puncher that Hollyfield ever faced - although Lewis fans might dispute that.

[ChrisPontius]

I see this thing quite a lot in Liston match ups for some reason.

I wonder why nobody tries to put an uber-trainer in Liston's corner?

I pick Sonny in case you haven't guessed. Liston is better outside, inside, and at mid range for me. What will Hollfyields plan be?

If we are talking peak for peak here, he is probably also the best composite puncher that Hollyfield ever faced - although Lewis fans might dispute that.

Lewis and Tyson put combinations together much quicker than Liston.

See for yourself, watch Lewis vs Botha and Tyson vs Bruno II (basically the same Tyson&Lewis that Holyfield fought). Then compare it to Liston's slow, clubbing finish of Williams II (his peak). They are far apart. Holyfield puts them together faster as well, but of course he doesn't have their power.

As to why no one talks about a top trainer in Listons corner, probably because Liston was a relatively smart fighter. He did follow Ali around in a straight line when he should've cut the ring off (didn't do it in the rematch either), but that's probably not gonna be a factor against Holyfield.

[McGrain]

Lewis and Tyson put combinations together much quicker than Liston.

True, but Liston has a better jab than both, is better (offensively) inside than both and has harder individual punches than Tyson and possibly than Lewis.


As to why no one talks about a top trainer in Listons corner, probably because Liston was a relatively smart fighter. He did follow Ali around in a straight line when he should've cut the ring off (didn't do it in the rematch either), but that's probably not gonna be a factor against Holyfield.

I don't want to talk about the Ali fights with you!

Come on, what is Hollyfield's plan?

[ChrisPontius]

I would dispute that Liston's jab is better than Lewis. Lewis' is faster, longer and he proved he could win a fight solely with it (Tua) as well as against master boxers (Holyfield). When did Liston's really prove his jab against a tough opponent? Machen maybe, although Machen was hardly a jabber and more of a defensive fighter.

Holyfield's plan is to capitalize on Liston's speed. Time his jab and counter it with his own or a right hand. Holyfield was very fast on his feet (and with his hands). He is a great counter puncher with an excellent defense; he fought Tyson, who is much faster than Liston, in close range yet Tyson couldn't consistently get through with his punches. Lewis did (Holyfield was a bit past his best), but even at that, he couldn't make it the butcheries than Grant, Botha, Golota et all fights became.

Holyfield should counter him, stick and move, make him follow, tie him up on the inside. Bank rounds and try to win a decision. That is, if Liston's bully mentality didn't give up on him. Holyfield would never be intimidated.

[godking]

I concede that Liston may have a better defence than Bowe, but is the difference really as large as you imply here?

I thought prime Bowe had good reflexes, rolled very well with punches, and being so much larger than Liston could smother Holyfield better inside if he chose to.

I do agree with you that Liston would win, with Holyfield putting up a very game losing effort.Listons Defense IS much better then Bowes

Bowe was one of the worst defensive HWS of all times the man could'nt get of the was of a jab to save his life . With just a tad worse Chin Bowe would have suffered multiple KO losses. There is a reason he avoided most big punchers of the 90s.

[McGrain]

I would dispute that Liston's jab is better than Lewis. Lewis' is faster, longer and he proved he could win a fight solely with it (Tua) as well as against master boxers (Holyfield). When did Liston's really prove his jab against a tough opponent? Machen maybe, although Machen was hardly a jabber and more of a defensive fighter.

Lewis did indeed put on some master classes with the jab. I've also seen him pawing with it. With the Liston jab, you know what you are getting, a horrible shot that will bust you up and is very accurate. Lewis' jab is affected by his fight plan and by his opponents defence. If you insist on Lewis' jab at its best being better than Liston's I will not neccisarily argue with you. If you bet upon Lewis' jab being better than Liston's on fight night, that is a bet you will lose more often than win.

Holyfield's plan is to capitalize on Liston's speed.

But Liston is not as slow as all of that. Besides which there is a serious power deficit. Hollyfield will get hit if this is the cornerstone of his plan, I wonder how many he can ship in order to land before he has to shell up?

Time his jab and counter it with his own or a right hand. Holyfield was very fast on his feet (and with his hands). He is a great counter puncher with an excellent defense;

Given. Timing the jab will be made very difficult though, because he MUST make it miss. Get hit with Liston's jab, especially whilst planting/having planted for a counter and the jab will almost certainly cause you to lose balance. If you lose balance within range against Liston you will be hurt in the immediatly future, as my mother says. I don't know why she says that, but it fits here.

Note, I do not think Liston will KO Hollyfield. Holly will hear the final bell. But IMO he will have to sloooooooooooooow the action down to do this, but he will get hurt in the process.

he fought Tyson, who is much faster than Liston, in close range yet Tyson couldn't consistently get through with his punches.

Speed, punching, throw them both in the river - Tyson was not strong enough to contend with Hollyfield at that range. Liston will manhandle him. Don't you think?

Also, Tyson has great natural balance and lean, but Liston understands these concepts. At this range a KO is possible, so I don't agree with your Tyson parallel at all.


Holyfield should counter him, stick and move, make him follow, tie him up on the inside. Bank rounds and try to win a decision. That is, if Liston's bully mentality didn't give up on him. Holyfield would never be intimidated.

I don't accept that Liston's bully mentallity ever gave up on him, as you know. I agree that Hollyfield has no fear in him. This is the test though!

You make some nice observations, and some that I don't feel are sensible. Bottom line, it isn't enough.

[ironchamp]

Liston had a jab that was authoritative enough to break Evander's rhythm and power to occasionally stun him in between Evander's sporadic and rhythmatic flurries. Evander's speed will more than likely befuddle Liston but I believe that, interestingly enough, that as the fight goes longer Liston would have landed enough leather to slow down a fading Holyfield, drop him in the 12th round and possibly stop him in the 14th round.

[mr. magoo]

Liston had a jab that was authoritative enough to break Evander's rhythm and power to occasionally stun him in between Evander's sporadic and rhythmatic flurries. Evander's speed will more than likely befuddle Liston but I believe that, interestingly enough, that as the fight goes longer Liston would have landed enough leather to slow down a fading Holyfield, drop him in the 12th round and possibly stop him in the 14th round.

Interesting how you think that Liston would win in the late moments of a 15 rounder, given that he never went beyond 12, whereas Holyfield did.

[radianttwilight]

Gotta go with Liston. That LONG jab would be busting Holyfield up all night, and I don't think Holy can beat Liston in any one area. He'll get hammered by the jab at long range and manhandled inside - Liston was probably one of the strongest HWs ever in the clinch, especially for a man of his height/weight.

Close, clear UD for Sonny.

[Rubber Warrior]

You're talking about Liston now?

While Holyfield didn't suddenly came apart as Liston did, he did have his fair share of off-nights so to speak. Bowe III/Moorer/Cooper.
No, I'm not inferring that Holyfield didn't have off nights. I was merely adding balance to the equation, so to speak. Seen them all, more than once. No surprises here.

[Bill Butcher]

Cant believe a guy who lost 2-1 (1 by ko) to bowe has so many votes to beat liston, crazy.

Liston would be far too strong for holy & I voted ko for sonny over holy.

[ironchamp]

Interesting how you think that Liston would win in the late moments of a 15 rounder, given that he never went beyond 12, whereas Holyfield did.

It doesnt mean he can't go beyond 12. I think he'd win late based on his body of work throughout the fight. Holyfield though durable, and well conditioned can fade down the stretch. I think would stop him late.

[Longhhorn71]

Nobody mentioned Liston's possible use of "juiced gloves" vs Holyfield flagrant head butts.

The two might settle the issue in a "second rumble" in the alley later.

[ChrisPontius]

Lewis did indeed put on some master classes with the jab. I've also seen him pawing with it. With the Liston jab, you know what you are getting, a horrible shot that will bust you up and is very accurate. Lewis' jab is affected by his fight plan and by his opponents defence. If you insist on Lewis' jab at its best being better than Liston's I will not neccisarily argue with you. If you bet upon Lewis' jab being better than Liston's on fight night, that is a bet you will lose more often than win.



But Liston is not as slow as all of that. Besides which there is a serious power deficit. Hollyfield will get hit if this is the cornerstone of his plan, I wonder how many he can ship in order to land before he has to shell up?



Given. Timing the jab will be made very difficult though, because he MUST make it miss. Get hit with Liston's jab, especially whilst planting/having planted for a counter and the jab will almost certainly cause you to lose balance. If you lose balance within range against Liston you will be hurt in the immediatly future, as my mother says. I don't know why she says that, but it fits here.

Note, I do not think Liston will KO Hollyfield. Holly will hear the final bell. But IMO he will have to sloooooooooooooow the action down to do this, but he will get hurt in the process.



Speed, punching, throw them both in the river - Tyson was not strong enough to contend with Hollyfield at that range. Liston will manhandle him. Don't you think?

Also, Tyson has great natural balance and lean, but Liston understands these concepts. At this range a KO is possible, so I don't agree with your Tyson parallel at all.




I don't accept that Liston's bully mentallity ever gave up on him, as you know. I agree that Hollyfield has no fear in him. This is the test though!

You make some nice observations, and some that I don't feel are sensible. Bottom line, it isn't enough.

Fair enough.

[ChrisPontius]

Cant believe a guy who lost 2-1 (1 by ko) to bowe has so many votes to beat liston, crazy.

Liston would be far too strong for holy & I voted ko for sonny over holy.

Bowe is a class above anyone Liston ever faced with the exception of Ali, who made him quit twice.

Besides, the third win was more due to Holyfield having conditioned himself wrongly, took too much HGH or whatever.

[mightyd40]

h2h i am almost always inclined to pick liston.......thats the case here as well. liston by late stoppage

[SteveO]

Liston's size is overrated. He is smaller than Holyfield and I doubt he is stronger than Lewis
For his era, Liston was a big man. Small to average at best in a more modern era.

[Stonehands89]

I am a lifelong Holyfield fan.

But Liston would stop him. Not because of the skill differential or even the strength differential. Liston would stop him because Holyfield at his best couldn't suppress his love of battle. He fought to get respect and was less a strategist and more of an "impose the will" guy.

Against Tyson it worked.
Against Dokes it worked.
He broke both of them.

Against Bowe, it didn't work.
Against Lewis it didn't work.
Both were too strong.

....Liston is stronger than both of them. His physical presence in the ring oozed that heavy, leaden strength.

Do you remember how effective Bowe and Lewis (and Moorer! Hell, even Foreman!) were when they operated behind that jab? Their jabs were not especially fast, but they were solid. Why did the jabs work? Because Holyfield was looking to get in and work and was less aware of avoiding the jab. He became a great counter puncher and one of his defining performance was Bowe II but I really credit Steward for that one. Steward was the maestro. What Holyfield always heard in his head was Lou Duva screaming "get that respect! Get that respect!" during the Dokes fight.

Liston would jab him to death and wear him out like Moorer, Bowe, and Lewis never could and would close the show late after a barrage. Holyfield ain't moving Liston backwards, it's the other way around. And Holyfield would only survive if he fought a defensive fight -which was not in his nature.

[abraq]

I note that a lot of people think that Holyfield would have a size advantage over Liston. This almost always happens when someone from the past is compared to one of the "moderns". In this case it is still more interesting because, ironically, Liston was supposed to be a big heavyweight of his era while Holyfield is supposed to be one of the smaller heavyweights of the modern era.

But to be fair, I think if Sonny Liston had been a contemporary of Evander Holyfield he would have been much bigger. Maybe, about 230 pounds in fighting condition. You just can't give the advantage of modern food, supplements, training methods and drugs (?) - well someone said hgh - to one fighter and withold the same from the other. It is just not fair.

Any fighter from the past would have been bigger and stronger with the latest advances in training methods, nutrition, etc. We really cannot say by how much, but we can make an educated guess.

In my opinion, if both had been contemporaries Liston would have either stopped Holyfield in the later rounds or a very courageous (and hurt) Holyfield would have just made it to the final bell to lose a UD.

Had they fought as they were in their respective primes - regardless of the time factor - Liston would have still won but it would have been a 'hell of a contest'.

[ChrisPontius]

I note that a lot of people think that Holyfield would have a size advantage over Liston.

Actually, most people think of Liston as "too big, too strong". They have some sort of mythical image that he's a 6'6 250lb man - which is just that, mythical. When you see that he's as big as Chris Byrd, who just about everyone considers too small today, it's pretty much a wake up call. Not saying that Liston is too small to compete here or today, but still.

[jaywilton]

Holyfield by Kayo.Liston didn't have a lot of heart.And even before ClayI(Ali)he had troubles with fighters like Eddie Machen,which has been shown on ESPN Classic severlal times.

[Stonehands89]

How do you figure.? :huh
Liston's physical strength has been well-documented. It is also apparant in his fights, albeit in bouts against men smaller than giants, with one or two exceptions. My opinion on this matter is also well-documented.

In sum, I hold that generally, a lower center of gravity have a strength advantage. Gravity works for them. Guys over 200 pounds are large men. I do not believe that a guy 210lbs is by definition weaker than a guy 240 lbs, although a guy who weighs 130 lbs is not as strong as a guy 160. After a certain threshold, pounds become more incidental. For me that threshold is 200 lbs --and may even be lower in terms of punching power (to wit: I believe that Dempsey had the swat to knock down any man -Lewis, et al.) Lewis's "large man" strength is distributed over a longer frame. Liston's "large man" strength is concentrated and thus 'heavier'.

Liston also strikes me as a man who was far stronger than he looked. His hands were huge, his limbs were thick, his trunk was heavily muscled and deep. Liston's testosterone levels was probably off the charts. And not least, he believed that he was the powerhouse wherever he was, well, at least until Frankie Carbo came back from the men's room. Liston was a juggernaut.

In terms of sheer physical strength, my top 4 looks like this:

1. Liston
2. Foreman
3. Lewis
4. Jeffries

Is it debatable? Sure! But no one has offered me a better argument on behalf of someone else...

[Stonehands89]

Holyfield by Kayo.Liston didn't have a lot of heart.And even before ClayI(Ali)he had troubles with fighters like Eddie Machen,which has been shown on ESPN Classic severlal times.
I think finishing a fight against Marty Marshall with a broken jaw and dropping a split decision demonstrates a rather large heart.

Machen was a fluid boxer with good skill for a heavyweight. Liston demonstrated surprising skill by outboxing the smaller, fleeter Machen.

[abraq]

Actually, most people think of Liston as "too big, too strong". They have some sort of mythical image that he's a 6'6 250lb man - which is just that, mythical. When you see that he's as big as Chris Byrd, who just about everyone considers too small today, it's pretty much a wake up call. Not saying that Liston is too small to compete here or today, but still.

I made my point quite clear in my first post on this topic.

I am not thinking of a "mythical 250lb" Liston. I said that even with modern methods Liston would have been about 230lb which, I think, is a reasonable estimate.

Remember, Holyfield himself was a cruiserweight to start with in the pros. He used weight training (he was trained by Lee Haney who was Mr. Olympia), the latest advances in nutritional science and probably 'you know what' to build himself up to a buffed and functional 215lb. Also, the human race is slowly becoming bigger. This is a documented fact. Contemplate Liston having access to all these factors and decide if he will still be the same size as Byrd.

I feel that it is decidedly unfair to call Liston "small" in this context.

[lyraus]

Holyfield at his best would be able to take Liston.

IMO, Tyson was a stronger physical specimen than Liston. Two full inches shorter, about 10 pounds heavier and solid muscle (Tyson never trained with weights during his prime, so I dont' want to hear about how he was somehow bigger than Liston because of "modern methods". Tyson was a solid 215 in his prime being trained using solely old school, Cus D'Amato methods). Holyfield was able to outmuscle Tyson and back him up in the clinch, so I wouldn't doubt he could do the same to Liston.

Liston was as mentally weak, if not weaker, than Tyson as well, so I have no doubt that once Holyfield started landing on him and pushing him back, he'd have quit just like he did in both Ali fights.

[Jbuz]

Holyfield could win, but I don't think he would.

[janitor]

Liston's size is overrated. He is smaller than Holyfield and I doubt he is stronger than Lewis

There is no was that Liston would have been able to fight under 190lbs so we have to regard him as being naturaly much bigger. A 210 pounder against a pumped up 190 pounder.

[abraq]

Holyfield at his best would be able to take Liston.

IMO, Tyson was a stronger physical specimen than Liston. Two full inches shorter, about 10 pounds heavier and solid muscle (Tyson never trained with weights during his prime, so I dont' want to hear about how he was somehow bigger than Liston because of "modern methods". Tyson was a solid 215 in his prime being trained using solely old school, Cus D'Amato methods). Holyfield was able to outmuscle Tyson and back him up in the clinch, so I wouldn't doubt he could do the same to Liston.

Liston was as mentally weak, if not weaker, than Tyson as well, so I have no doubt that once Holyfield started landing on him and pushing him back, he'd have quit just like he did in both Ali fights.

Holyfield, Tyson they have all used modern methods. Incidently, this does not only include weight training. Just because Tyson was trained by Cus D'Amato does not mean that Tyson never used the latest methods. It is tantamount to saying that Cus was never receptive to advances in training technologies. No good coach can afford to do so. "Old school" do not mean sticking to ancient methods even when a proven better way is found. Rather it means retaining all that is good in the old methods and at the same time amalgamating the proven modern methods in the total training format.

In all other sports athletes are bigger, faster and stronger because of the advances in training technologies. It is naive to think that the top pros in boxing are not taking advantage of it.

[ChrisPontius]

I made my point quite clear in my first post on this topic.

I am not thinking of a "mythical 250lb" Liston. I said that even with modern methods Liston would have been about 230lb which, I think, is a reasonable estimate.

Remember, Holyfield himself was a cruiserweight to start with in the pros. He used weight training (he was trained by Lee Haney who was Mr. Olympia), the latest advances in nutritional science and probably 'you know what' to build himself up to a buffed and functional 215lb. Also, the human race is slowly becoming bigger. This is a documented fact. Contemplate Liston having access to all these factors and decide if he will still be the same size as Byrd.

I feel that it is decidedly unfair to call Liston "small" in this context.

It is unfair for sure, but guess what, life isn't fair.


I'd also like to know exactly what modern training techniques Tyson used before the age of 20 when he grew into his 215 lb frame. He was already 190lbs at the age of 13.

Holyfield was already up in the 190lb when he was 23. It is certainly no stretch of imagination to think he could fight around 200lbs as he aged into his 30's without modern training. You naturally put on some pounds as you get older and it's not like bulking up was completely unknown to old school fighters. Archie Moore could succesfully go up from 175 to 190 and back well into his 30's, while he was a middleweight in his 20's.

Rather than seeing modern training methods as a magic trick, i think Holyfield's succes is more his own than that of training methods. If it was so effective, then why have we only seen a grand total of TWO fighters in the last thirty years who were able to go up from 190lbs and have consistent succes at heavyweight? And even in the cases of those two fighters, when they were beat, most people saw it as "they're too small to compete with talented big heavies", i.e. Holyfield vs Bowe, Holyfield vs Lewis, Byrd vs Klitschko, Byrd vs Ibeabuchi. And Holyfield's body broke down on several occasions.
There have been a few other exceptions like Moorer and Spinks but their succes was brief; Moorer had one of the most embarrassing KO losses to a 45 year old Foreman who lost to or struggled with every decent opponent in his comeback. Spinks is, unrightfully, remembered as the 91 second-man despite having one of the greatest resumes of all time at lightheavyweight.

[abraq]

ChrisPontius, you have answered your own question by saying "they're too small to compete with talented big heavies". The same factors which allowed them to become a full sized heavy compared to a heavy of the past has also led to the present day natural heavyweigths being "superheavyweights".

No, I don't think of modern methods in being some sort of magic trick. In fact, I am a great believer in 'old school' myself - trust me. I am only trying to put things into proper perspective and be realistic.

[jaywilton]

Uh uh Stonehands;no matter what-Liston doesn't compare to Holyfield in terms of heart.And he was ready to quit after taking a couple of hard shots against Cleveland Williams.At his best,Holyfield would've stopped Liston and Williams on the same night.Eddie Machen wouldn't be fighting heavy's today.I think he was kayoed in one by Ingemar Johannsen(without doublechecking).

[cuchulain]

Holyfield, by the most wafer-thin of decisions. This fight would most likely be an absolute barnstormer. :good

Your two sentences seem to contradict.

If the fight was a 'barnstormer' I have little doubt it ends in Sonny's favour sometime in the first round.

If Holy is to prevail, he has to stay away from Liston as much as possible and that's just not his style. I see a KO somewhere between 3 and 8.

[Stonehands89]

This is rare --I disagree with every single statement you make.

Uh uh Stonehands;no matter what-Liston doesn't compare to Holyfield in terms of heart.
Holyfield's heart was second to none. The point was that anyone who asserts that "Liston has no heart" is unaware of the man and his career. Or is a simpleton.

And he was ready to quit after taking a couple of hard shots against Cleveland Williams. Where do you get that? He KOd him twice!

At his best,Holyfield would've stopped Liston and Williams on the same night.
This isn't even worthy of a response.

Eddie Machen wouldn't be fighting heavy's today.I think he was kayoed in one by Ingemar Johannsen(without doublechecking).
So, your implication is that Jerry Quarry and Nino Valdes and Joey Maxim couldn't compete today either -because dat bum Machen beat all three of them. Quarry lost to Machen when the latter was about 34 years old.

[jaywilton]

Stonehands;you're either unaware or a simpleton...Regarding your last statement about Quarry,Valdez and Maxim not being able to compete today;I never said that.I simply don't believe they would be able to compete very well at heavyweight-my least favorite division.I think they'd be excellent at cruiserweight-no disgrace.Marty Marshall weighed 180 when he broke Liston's jaw(check boxrec.com).Also-regarding Sonny Liston's personal history and "heart"-I'm with I think a pretty large crowd that can't decide whether he threw Ali II or quit;the "anchor punch" wouldn't have knocked me out.

[Marciano Frazier]

This is rare --I disagree with every single statement you make.


Holyfield's heart was second to none. The point was that anyone who asserts that "Liston has no heart" is unaware of the man and his career. Or is a simpleton.
It is absolutely true that Liston had heart, and asserting that he had "none" is unreasonable. However, he did clearly display some mental weakness during his career, which is a very serious point when one is matching him up against a warrior of the caliber of Holyfield.


So, your implication is that Jerry Quarry and Nino Valdes and Joey Maxim couldn't compete today either -because dat bum Machen beat all three of them. Quarry lost to Machen when the latter was about 34 years old.
Well, in fairness, Valdes and Maxim were over the hill when Machen beat them.

[Stonehands89]

It is absolutely true that Liston had heart, and asserting that he had "none" is unreasonable. However, he did clearly display some mental weakness during his career, which is a very serious point when one is matching him up against a warrior of the caliber of Holyfield.
If you are talking about the Clay fiasco, I'll give you that. The Ali fiasco a year later is something I don't factor in.

I do not agree that Holyfield would do well against Liston at all. And he did not have enough heart problems for it to make much of a difference.

Well, in fairness, Valdes and Maxim were over the hill when Machen beat them.
Sure, but the point was the point.

[ChrisPontius]

The interesting thing is that Liston does seem to have that bully-mentality. I don't like to use that over-applied term, but i think it does apply here. Liston in interviews does not come across as someone with self confidence at all.

Watching a conversation between Liston and Ali, from their voices and body language, one gets the impression that Ali was a grown up and Liston a confidence-less kid who literally couldn't produce a sentence without stuttering, while of course Ali was barely 20 and Liston in his 30's.

Ali didn't make Liston quit because he punched so hard; Liston's fights with Williams were much harder in terms of that and the Machen fight may have been equally frustrating. But none of them had that bully-breaking mentality that Ali had, which is what made the difference. Holyfield is one of the best fighters when it comes to this aspect of the game, as he thoroughly showed against Tyson twice. It doesn't tell the whole story and to say Liston has no heart is biased or exaggarating the facts, but it remains an un-overlookable factor.


Interestingly, in the poll this fight is as good as 50/50. I do think it's a very hard fight to call indeed.

[Stonehands89]

The interesting thing is that Liston does seem to have that bully-mentality. I don't like to use that over-applied term, but i think it does apply here. Liston in interviews does not come across as someone with self confidence at all.

Watching a conversation between Liston and Ali, from their voices and body language, one gets the impression that Ali was a grown up and Liston a confidence-less kid who literally couldn't produce a sentence without stuttering, while of course Ali was barely 20 and Liston in his 30's.

Ali didn't make Liston quit because he punched so hard; Liston's fights with Williams were much harder in terms of that and the Machen fight may have been equally frustrating. But none of them had that bully-breaking mentality that Ali had, which is what made the difference. Holyfield is one of the best fighters when it comes to this aspect of the game, as he thoroughly showed against Tyson twice. It doesn't tell the whole story and to say Liston has no heart is biased or exaggarating the facts, but it remains an un-overlookable factor.


Interestingly, in the poll this fight is as good as 50/50. I do think it's a very hard fight to call indeed.
Liston could barely write his name -he was functionally illiterate if I remember correctly. Ali had an IQ that was very very low, but his social IQ was genious.

Liston lived a wreck of a life...

Anyway, good post.

[ChrisPontius]

Ali is one of the best examples to illustrate the difference between IQ and emotional intelligence. The latter may be just as important as IQ in terms of being succesfull later in life, but no one ever tests that..


By the way, was Ali analfabetic? It doesn't sound likely to me, but i've read that claim somewhere.

[Stonehands89]

Ali is one of the best examples to illustrate the difference between IQ and emotional intelligence. The latter may be just as important as IQ in terms of being succesfull later in life, but no one ever tests that..

By the way, was Ali analfabetic? It doesn't sound likely to me, but i've read that claim somewhere.

I remember reading somewhere that Ali himself admitted that he was more or less illiterate. Early in his career, his IQ tested at 78. In the sixties he would go to college campuses with the Nation of Islam and stand at a podium and speak and field questions by mostly hostile white audiences... and he was sporting that 78 IQ. Frazier in Manila must have been somewhat less terrifying.