Heavyweight Tourney:Rd 2: John L. Sullivan .Vs. Tommy Morrison

[la-califa]

Tommy Morrison ,who got by Corrie Sanders. Will be facing off against the Boston Bruiser, John L. Sullivan. Fresh off of his victory over Jack Sharkey. Can Morrison pick & move effectivly against Sullivan?

Please give reasoning for your prediction. Please give predicted result.

Round 2. 12 Rounds.

[Boilermaker]

Tommy has a glass chin, which is bad news against John L Sullivan. His best performance was against George Foreman where he boxed and stayed out of harms way. i doubt he adopts these tactics against Sullivan. if he is to be any chance, he should. Even if he does, the problem is that Sullivan is 5 times as quick as the slow old Foreman.


morrison never really even established himself as a world class contender. He lost to the first top 10 contender he fought in Ray Mercer by a 5th round stoppage. The next top 10 fighter he fought was slow old George Foreman. It was his best performance and an uncharacteristic performance and he did manage to win, although it should be noted that he broke foremans jaw early and couldnt put him away. This was just after his life and death struggle with an old Carl Williams who knocked him down twice in the 5th round before Morrison rallied to win. And just before being stopped in a round by michael Bent. After beating a string of nobodies, he was knocked down twice in a draw with Ross Purity, who was no more than a solid journeyman status. He soon had his second best ever win over Razor Ruddock, but Ruddock was coming off a 2 rd KO defeat by Lennox Lewis and while he continued to fight on, he never fough another live challenger again. Morrison got his chance against a true world champion and as is expected he was completely dominated.

All in all, Tommy was not really ever a world class opponent, imo, at his best he was maybe a top 5-10 fighter in the world. He is not going to beat an all time great dominant champion. John L sullivan chases tommy down early and lands big. Morrison doesnt get up. I say Sullivan KO3. This is not an unusual thing for John L as he was used to beating fighters in less than 4 rounds.

[janitor]

Obviously there are significant difficulties making a prediction here.

What I do believe is that Sullivan had one of the best combinations of power and hand speed of any fighter his weight and was a ferocious finisher. He was also a dynamic offensive fighter who knew how to slip a punch.

The smart money would be on Sullivan to overwhelm Morrison and stop him.

[mcvey]

Obviously there are significant difficulties making a prediction here.

What I do believe is that Sullivan had one of the best combinations of power and hand speed of any fighter his weight and was a ferocious finisher. He was also a dynamic offensive fighter who knew how to slip a punch.

The smart money would be on Sullivan to overwhelm Morrison and stop him.

I think I would go for John L. However , lets not forget that Sullivan did not face many men 220lbs 6'2'' who could hit like Morrison,in fact name one.For all the talk about the paucity of quality on Morrison's resume,is it lacking any more depth than Sullivan's?
Sullivan ducked his most dangerous challenger, [JACKSON],true he was showing the effects of a wild lifestyle but the fact remains he did not take up the challenge.Muldoon said he did not want the big man to be humiliated by a black.
Do you see Charley Mitchell holding Morrison to a draw?
We have no way of knowing just how good some of Sullivan's challengers were,some were probably competent men ,[I am talking about his barnstorming fights here],but others would have been little more than local toughs , probaly inferior to a Joe Savage.
My pick is Sullivan but not with absolute confidence ,for ,whatever Morrison's shortcomings he was big ,fast and could hit a ton with that left hook.It is possible he could catch the oncoming Sully with one.

[TheGreatA]

I think I would go for John L. However , lets not forget that Sullivan did not face many men 220lbs 6'2'' who could hit like Morrison,in fact name one.For all the talk about the paucity of quality on Morrison's resume,is it lacking any more depth than Sullivan's?
Sullivan ducked his most dangerous challenger, [JACKSON],true he was showing the efects of a wild lifestyle but the fact remains he did not take up the challenge.Muldoon said he did not want the big man to be humiliated by a black.
Do you see Charley Mitchell holding Morrison to a draw?
We have no way of knowing just how good some of Sullivan's challengers were,some were probably competent men ,[I am talking about his barnstorming fights here],but others would have been little more than local toughs , probaly inferior to a Joe Savage.
My pick is Sullivan but not with absolute confidence ,for ,whatever Morrison's shortcomings he was big ,fast and could hit a ton with that left hook.It is possible he could catch the oncoming Sully with one.

I think that fight was fought under the London Prize Ring Rules though, right? Which allowed Mitchell to basically drop to the canvas whenever he was in danger of being hurt.

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Morrison did go to a draw with Ross Puritty who was big and strong but also fought like a journeyman, only opening up a times. He hurt Morrison every single time that he did.

[mcvey]

I think that fight was fought under the London Prize Ring Rules though, right? Which allowed Mitchell to basically drop to the canvas whenever he was in danger of being hurt.

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Morrison did go to a draw with Ross Puritty who was big and strong but also fought like a journeyman, only opening up a times. He hurt Morrison every single time that he did.

You are correct it was fought at Chantilly ,on the Baron Rothschild's estate ,they battled in mud which probably favoured the smaller Mitchell ,even so he hung around didn't he?
In their rematch Sullivan got him out of there in 3 rds,but not before the 150lbs Mitchell dropped him, and he was conceding 40lbs to 190lbs Sullivan.
Maybe 225lbs Morrison could do it too?

[TheGreatA]

You are correct it was fought at Chantilly ,on the Baron Rothschild's estate ,they battled in mud which probably favoured the smaller Mitchell ,even so he hung around didn't he?
In their rematch Sullivan got him out of there in 3 rds,but not before the 150lbs Mitchell dropped him, and he was conceding 40lbs to 190lbs Sullivan.
Maybe 225lbs Morrison could do it too?

I think it was their first fight when Sullivan KO'd him in 1883.

"The bout was to be held in the world famous Madison Square Garden, gloved, and under the Marquess of Queensberry rules. Early on, Sullivan made his trademark charge, hoping to bombard the smaller Mitchell with his terrific punching power. Though Mitchell hit the deck three times he recruited to drop Sullivan for the first time in his career, off a quick left. Sullivan, who forever longer hated the fact that Mitchell dropped him, rose to his feet as quick as possible though the bell ended the tumulteous opening frame. Sullivan, infuriated, annhiliated Mitchell in the second and third until the Police stopped the slaughter when Mitchell was completely helpless on the ropes. Sullivan pleaded in vain for the police to let him get "one more crack at him" but when the police refused, Sullivan walked back to his corner in tears."

[mcvey]

I think it was their first fight when Sullivan KO'd him in 1883.

"The bout was to be held in the world famous Madison Square Garden, gloved, and under the Marquess of Queensberry rules. Early on, Sullivan made his trademark charge, hoping to bombard the smaller Mitchell with his terrific punching power. Though Mitchell hit the deck three times he recruited to drop Sullivan for the first time in his career, off a quick left. Sullivan, who forever longer hated the fact that Mitchell dropped him, rose to his feet as quick as possible though the bell ended the tumulteous opening frame. Sullivan, infuriated, annhiliated Mitchell in the second and third until the Police stopped the slaughter when Mitchell was completely helpless on the ropes. Sullivan pleaded in vain for the police to let him get "one more crack at him" but when the police refused, Sullivan walked back to his corner in tears."

You are correct again, my mistake it was, their first fight.:good

[janitor]

[quote=mcvey;5365579]I think I would go for John L. However , lets not forget that Sullivan did not face many men 220lbs 6'2'' who could hit like Morrison,in fact name one.

What limited acounts we do have of sullivan being matched against oponents the size of Morrison do not suggest that they put him at a stylistic disadvantage. Indeed the consensus at the time was that the bigger a man was the faster Sullivan cut him down.


For all the talk about the paucity of quality on Morrison's resume,is it lacking any more depth than Sullivan's?


Sullivans depth of resume is huge.

For my money he fought in the weakest era of gloved heavyweight boxing but was perhaps the most dominant heavyweight champion of any era. By dominant I mean furthest removed from the level of his best challengers.

Sullivan ducked his most dangerous challenger, [JACKSON],true he was showing the effects of a wild lifestyle but the fact remains he did not take up the challenge.Muldoon said he did not want the big man to be humiliated by a black.

True enough but you have to ask what difference it would have made to his historic standing if Jackson had beaten him. It would have had prety much the same effect on his body of work as Corbett beating him a year later.


Do you see Charley Mitchell holding Morrison to a draw?


I do not see Charlie Mitchel holding Morrison to a draw under London Prize Ring Rules because I don't think that he would have to settle for a draw.

He would just employ spoiling tactics untill Morrison ran out of gas and there would have been nothing Morrison could have done to stop him.


We have no way of knowing just how good some of Sullivan's challengers were,some were probably competent men ,[I am talking about his barnstorming fights here],but others would have been little more than local toughs , probaly inferior to a Joe Savage.


I think that Sullivans best opponents were significantly inferior to the best of Jem Mace's era before them and also to the best of the Corbett era after them.

Having said that I am in no doubt that Sullivan was an exceptional fighter.

I would peg him a lot closer to Jim Jeffries and Jack Johnson than to Jim Corbett both as a talent and a champion.

[janitor]

You are correct it was fought at Chantilly ,on the Baron Rothschild's estate ,they battled in mud which probably favoured the smaller Mitchell ,even so he hung around didn't he?


The trouble was that not only could Mitchell go down to avoid punishment but even when he got knocked spark out cold and had to be carried back to his corner his cornermen were still able to revive him and get him up to scratch.

I did the stats on this fight once.

Number of times Mitchell went down without getting hit.

Number of times Mitchell was knocked down with punches.

It was basicaly a one sided masacre where the rules would not allow Sullivan to bring it to a conclusion.

[Flea Man]

Based on seeing him, Morrison stops him. Even given that Sullivan fought for many, many strenuous rounds, Morrison has the advance in Modern technique, and as I've seen him fight I know he had fairly fast hands and could bang.

[mcvey]

[quote]

What limited acounts we do have of sullivan being matched against oponents the size of Morrison do not suggest that they put him at a stylistic disadvantage. Indeed the consensus at the time was that the bigger a man was the faster Sullivan cut him down.



Sullivans depth of resume is huge.

For my money he fought in the weakest era of gloved heavyweight boxing but was perhaps the most dominant heavyweight champion of any era. By dominant I mean furthest removed from the level of his best challengers.



True enough but you have to ask what difference it would have made to his historic standing if Jackson had beaten him. It would have had prety much the same effect on his body of work as Corbett beating him a year later.



I do not see Charlie Mitchel holding Morrison to a draw under London Prize Ring Rules because I don't think that he would have to settle for a draw.

He would just employ spoiling tactics untill Morrison ran out of gas and there would have been nothing Morrison could have done to stop him.



I think that Sullivans best opponents were significantly inferior to the best of Jem Mace's era before them and also to the best of the Corbett era after them.

Having said that I am in no doubt that Sullivan was an exceptional fighter.

I would peg him a lot closer to Jim Jeffries and Jack Johnson than to Jim Corbett both as a talent and a champion.

By depth of resume ,I meant quality ,I too beleive Sullivan was a premier fighting man,and I pick him to beat Morrison,but another poster highlighted Morrisons opponents lack of quality.Were guys like Tillis, Thomas, Hipp,etc any worse than the majority of John L's adversaries?
I dont think Mitchell would go very long with Morrison under any circumstances whether he fell to the ground on being struck or not,no small light middle weight is going the route with Morrison,and he possibly only managed it with Sullivan because the Strong Boy was not in shape.
Again on Sullivan's resume how many 225lbs 6' 2' hitters did he actually face?

[Mendoza]

Tommy Morrison ,who got by Corrie Sanders. Will be facing off against the Boston Bruiser, John L. Sullivan. Fresh off of his victory over Jack Sharkey. Can Morrison pick & move effectivly against Sullivan?

Please give reasoning for your prediction. Please give predicted result.

Round 2. 12 Rounds.

I think Sullivan resume is a bit lacking in wins vs quality gloves fighters. Morrison has a punchers chance, but he was never a top level guy. Then again he fought in the early to mid 1990's when heavyweight talent was at a high water mark.

I think Morrison has the edge on boxing skill, but with his shaky chin and stamina, he would need to land the bomb in the early rounds. Sullivan seems pretty durable to me.

Its hard to say who would win. I do think Sullivan was held in high regard. Right up there with Dempsey, Johnson, Jeffries, et al. Based on reputation and Morrison limited punch resistance, I'll go with John L in this one.

[Bummy Davis]

I do not think much of Morrison and John L. was a winner indeed. I would have to go with John L., lucky for Tommy he did not have to face J.L.S. in the tough man...J.L.S. by KO