list your all time top 10 p4p ratings.

[frankenfrank]

start with mine :
1. Sam Langford
2. Charley Burley
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Young Peter Jackson
5. Barney Ross
6. James Toney
7. Muhammad Qawi
8. Roberto Duran
9. Jorge Fernando Castro
10. Chris Byrd

11. Orlin Norris
12. Carmen Basilio
13. Misterious Billy Smith
14. Hector Camacho
15 . Marlon Starling
16. Mike McCallum
17. Jose Luis Lopez
18. Ike Quartery
19. Simon Brown
20. Ray Leonard

edit :
here is one of my previous P4P lists and the original list posted here
1. Sam Langford
2. Young Peter Jackson
3. Mike Tyson
4. Rocky Marciano
5. Muhammad Qawi
6. Manny Pacquiao
7. Roberto Duran
8. Ray Leonard
9. Joe Walcott
10. Ray Robinson

worth mentioning : Hector Camacho , Julio Cesar Chavez , Vinny Pazienza , Frankie Randall , Pernell Whitaker , Floyd Mayweather , Ronald Wright , Oscar Delahoya , Henry Armstrong , Mysterious Billy Smith , Ezzard Charles , Charley Burley , Chris Byrd , James Toney , David Tua , Reggie Johnson , Jorge Fernando Castro , too many to choose from

and there can be some minor mistakes and swaps in it but this is why you can post yours to compare with mine.

[McGrain]

:lol:

[GDG]

How you've only put Chris Byrd in the honourable mentions and not the top 10 is beyond me!!!

Other than that, a very solid list!!


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[frankenfrank]

:lol:
:finger

[frankenfrank]

How you've only put Chris Byrd in the honourable mentions and not the top 10 is beyond me!!!

Other than that, a very solid list!!


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
i bet yours is betta .

[Robbi]

start with mine :
1. Sam Langford
2. Young Peter Jackson
3. Mike Tyson
4. Rocky Marciano
5. Muhammad Qawi
6. Manny Pacquiao
7. Roberto Duran
8. Ray Leonard
9. Joe Walcott
10. Ray Robinson

worth mentioning : Hector Camacho , Julio Cesar Chavez , Vinny Pazienza , Frankie Randall , Pernell Whitaker , Floyd Mayweather , Ronald Wright , Oscar Delahoya , Henry Armstrong , Mysterious Billy Smith , Ezzard Charles , Charley Burley , Chris Byrd , James Toney , David Tua , Reggie Johnson , Jorge Fernando Castro , too many to choose from

and there can be some minor mistakes and swaps in it but this is why you can post yours to compare with mine.

Is this a joke?

[McGrain]

Is this a joke?

In a way.

[frankenfrank]

Is this a joke?
so you are saving your list for a rainy day , doncha ?

[MrMarvel]

1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Roberto Duran
4. Muhammad Ali (shrink him down and he's even faster)
5. Marvin Hagler
6. Julio Cesar Chavez
7. Pernell Whitaker
8. Willie Pep
9. Michael Spinks
10.Roy Jones Jr.

Honorable mention: Ezzard Charles, Carlos Monzon, Jose Napoles, Emile Griffith, Bob Foster, Barney Ross, Benny Leonard, Tony Canzoneri, Alexis Arguello, Salvador Sanchez, Azumah Nelson, Sandy Saddler, Carlos Ortiz, Archie Moore. There are others...

[McGrain]

Fucking full moon or something.

[Mantequilla]

Franken has to be an alias.Nobody could be this fucking stupid.

[My2Sense]

1. Armstrong
2. Robinson
3. Charles
4. Greb (could be higher if I'd actually seen him fight)
5. Langford
6. Walker
7. B. Leonard
8. Louis
9. Whitaker
10. R. Leonard

Honorable Mention: Ali, Duran, Ross

[Robbi]

That opening list is nonsense. However, it really pisses me off that some people are very stubborn and insist that certain fighters must be in the top 10. Yes, some fighters are certain top 10's but not all. Depending on someones list of course.

Some people don't include fighters like Whitaker or Leonard in a top 10 simply because they had just over 40 fights. Leonard beat the likes of Duran, himself at least a top 15 P4P fighter. Hagler, one of the greatest middleweights ever, Benitez, Hearns, etc. He's got one of the best resumes of all-time. What would he need to do to crack into mostly everyones top 10 on here? Probably have over 80 fights with the vast majority of those being against mediocre and journeyman quality.

It seems that a fighter simply keeping busy, no matter the quality of opposition, scores very highly with some.

[Boilermaker]

1. Bob Fitzsimmons
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Sam Langford
4. Harry Greb
5. Joe Louis
6. Jack McAuliffe
7. Muhammed Ali
8. Benny Leonard
9. Ray Robinson
10. George Dixon

[Boilermaker]

That opening list is nonsense. However, it really pisses me off that some people are very stubborn and insist that certain fighters must be in the top 10. Yes, some fighters are certain top 10's but not all. Depending on someones list of course.

Some people don't include fighters like Whitaker or Leonard in a top 10 simply because they had just over 40 fights. Leonard beat the likes of Duran, himself at least a top 15 P4P fighter. Hagler, one of the greatest middleweights ever, Benitez, Hearns, etc. He's got one of the best resumes of all-time. What would he need to do to crack into mostly everyones top 10 on here? Probably have over 80 fights with the vast majority of those being against mediocre and journeyman quality.

It seems that a fighter simply keeping busy, no matter the quality of opposition, scores very highly with some.



I dont think that people realise just how many great fighters there have been. If you want to be in the top 10 pound for pound fighters ever, then you pretty much have to start by being the best fighter of your decade in your natural weight class. Then you have to be better than than the other 10 or so fighters in your decade that were the best in their chosen weight class. But even if you achieve this status, there are still another 12 or so fighters that have also achieved this in their own decade, so if you arent that standout fighter, it is unlikely you will be in the top 10. If you are for example the third best fighter (as one of Leonard, Hagler or Duran must have been) then you may not be even in the top 30! I think that if you havent spent at least 10 or so years as a stand out and dominant fighter then you have very little chance of cracking the top 10 on any reasonable list.

[Robbi]

I dont think that people realise just how many great fighters there have been. If you want to be in the top 10 pound for pound fighters ever, then you pretty much have to start by being the best fighter of your decade in your natural weight class. Then you have to be better than than the other 10 or so fighters in your decade that were the best in their chosen weight class. But even if you achieve this status, there are still another 12 or so fighters that have also achieved this in their own decade, so if you arent that standout fighter, it is unlikely you will be in the top 10. If you are for example the third best fighter (as one of Leonard, Hagler or Duran must have been) then you may not be even in the top 30! I think that if you havent spent at least 10 or so years as a stand out and dominant fighter then you have very little chance of cracking the top 10 on any reasonable list.

That sounds very confusing and a little bit controversial regarding your criteria.

[teeto]

start with mine :
1. Sam Langford
2. Young Peter Jackson
3. Mike Tyson
4. Rocky Marciano
5. Muhammad Qawi
6. Manny Pacquiao
7. Roberto Duran
8. Ray Leonard
9. Joe Walcott
10. Ray Robinson

worth mentioning : Hector Camacho , Julio Cesar Chavez , Vinny Pazienza , Frankie Randall , Pernell Whitaker , Floyd Mayweather , Ronald Wright , Oscar Delahoya , Henry Armstrong , Mysterious Billy Smith , Ezzard Charles , Charley Burley , Chris Byrd , James Toney , David Tua , Reggie Johnson , Jorge Fernando Castro , too many to choose from

and there can be some minor mistakes and swaps in it but this is why you can post yours to compare with mine.
Great list.

[essexboy]

start with mine :
1. Sam Langford
2. Young Peter Jackson
3. Mike Tyson
4. Rocky Marciano
5. Muhammad Qawi
6. Manny Pacquiao
7. Roberto Duran
8. Ray Leonard
9. Joe Walcott
10. Ray Robinson

worth mentioning : Hector Camacho , Julio Cesar Chavez , Vinny Pazienza , Frankie Randall , Pernell Whitaker , Floyd Mayweather , Ronald Wright , Oscar Delahoya , Henry Armstrong , Mysterious Billy Smith , Ezzard Charles , Charley Burley , Chris Byrd , James Toney , David Tua , Reggie Johnson , Jorge Fernando Castro , too many to choose from

and there can be some minor mistakes and swaps in it but this is why you can post yours to compare with mine.

You're hilarious Frank I'll give you that much.

[Boilermaker]

That sounds very confusing and a little bit controversial regarding your criteria.

Not at all. (and it isnt really a criteria)

If you are the best pound for pound fighter in the world, you are basically the best fighter in the world (allowing for your division).

To be the best fighter today you would have to start by being the best fighter in your division. For Arguments sake, the following fighters are the best:
Heavy Vlad Klitchsko, Light Heavy Chad Dawson, Middles Bernard Hopkins, Floyd Mayweather Jnr, Lightweight Juan Manuel Marquez, Featherweight Chris John.

(This is not even considering some of the Champions who hold other weight class titles). Just looking at that list, three great fighters are not good enough to be the best pound for pound fighter as of right now. Now if you go back a little further and look at the best pound for pound fighter of the decade, you will see that the list needs to include some more great fighters eg. Lewis as a heavyweight, Roy JOnes Jr as light heavyweight, Hopkins and Mayweather may retain their spot, but if they do, it is at the expense of other great fighters. In fact, by going back just 10 years, it is easy to identify 10 great fighters some of whom some people will probably rate in their top 10 of all time, maybe even no 1. But realistically speaking only one of those 10 or so great fighters can be the pound for pound best. And there is no way that 10 of those can be guaranteed a spot in the alltime great top 10.

In fact, if you do this same exercise for each decade, you will come up with the same problem. 10 great fighters, 9 of whom cant be the best fighter of all time. Do the exercise for every decade and you will come up with over 100 great fighters, 90 of who were not the best fighter of their time, and 9 of whom cannot be the greatest of fighter of all time. I dont think that people realise just how good you must have been just to make the top 10 let alone be in it.

Take for example a Ray Leonard. Greatest Welterweight of his era. He was so good that he went up and beat another Great Middleweight (some say the greatest in Hagler). And he won a title as high as light heavyweight. Yet was he the best pound for pound fighter of his time? Maybe, but if he is, you would have to consider him better than Larry Holmes, who dominated for just as long a period, or better than Hagler who also dominated the same period. Or Duran dominated lightweight for the same amount of time, and actually beat Leonard in their first match. This is not even allowing to be compared to guys across other eras, like Henry Armstrong, who won More titles, Jack McAuliffe, who never lost a fight and reigned longer. Marty Servo, who most people dont even pay lip service to, but who beat the longest reigning welterweight champion and knocked down Sugar Ray Robinson. Or the original Sugar Ray himself.

Leonard was a good fighter, but he is not a guaranteed top 20 or even 30. that is the point i was making. there have been so many good fighters, that unless you can say without question that you were the best fighter of your weight, in your era, then it is almost certain that you will not be in the top 30 atg pound for pound fighters. And even if you can, you still may not be.

[Manassa]

1. Henry Armstrong
2. Harry Greb
3. Ray Robinson
4. Sam Langford
5. Benny Leonard
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Roberto Duran
8. Willie Pep
9. Archie Moore
10. Barney Ross

[Robbi]

1. Henry Armstrong
2. Harry Greb
3. Ray Robinson
4. Sam Langford
5. Benny Leonard
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Roberto Duran
8. Willie Pep
9. Archie Moore
10. Barney Ross

Your list is shit.

[Manassa]

Your list is shit.

Shut it, you old coot.

[Robbi]

Shut it, you old coot.

I'm at it mate :cool:. Good list. I was suprised you had Pep that low. I always thought he was around #5 on your list.

[turpinr]

1. Henry Armstrong
2. Harry Greb
3. Ray Robinson
4. Sam Langford
5. Benny Leonard
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Roberto Duran
8. Willie Pep
9. Archie Moore
10. Barney Ross:goodgood list.no,great list:good

[GPater11093]

1. Armstrong
2. Langford
3. Robinson
4. Greb
5. Fitzsimmons
6. Charles
7. Pep
8. Duran
9. Moore
10. Leonard (Benny)

[turpinr]

1. Armstrong
2. Langford
3. Robinson
4. Greb
5. Fitzsimmons
6. Charles
7. Pep
8. Duran
9. Moore
10. Leonard (Benny)
6/10 :lol:

[GPater11093]

6/10 :lol:

i just throw list together

they dont mean much to me alll of them guys are near nough interchangeable and all are the same level

[Manassa]

I'm at it mate :cool:. Good list. I was suprised you had Pep that low. I always thought he was around #5 on your list.

Yeah, he was at #4 for a while but gradually dropped. Didn't beat as many great fighters as the others.

Although detractors of Pep's record are also in the wrong, because if you look at it, he beat a long line of rated contenders at both featherweight and lightweight:

Pedro Hernandez (x2)
Spider Armstrong
Bobby Ivy
Vince Dell'Orto (x2)
Bill Speary (x2)
Allie Stolz
Sal Bartolo (x3)
Jackie Wilson (x2)
Willie Roache (x2)
Willie Joyce
Lulu Constantino
Joey Peralta
Charley Lewis (x3)
Phil Terranova
Jackie Graves
Joey Fontana
Lefty LaChance (x2)
Joey Archibald
Humberto Sierra (x2)
Jock Leslie
Miguel Avacedo
Teddy Davis (x3)
Paddy DeMarco
Eddie Compo
Harold Dade
Charley Riley
Ray Famechon
Bobby Bell (x2)
Carlos Chavez
Eddie Chavez
Baby Neff Ortiz
Rodolfo Gonzales
Gil Cadilli
Armand Savoie

Chalky Wright (x4)
Manuel Ortiz
Sandy Saddler

Fantasic record, which is why Pep has to be a lock for the top ten.

[turpinr]

i just throw list together

they dont mean much to me alll of them guys are near nough interchangeable and all are the same levelonly kidding:Di don't bother with p4p except for ray robinson

[teeto]

That sounds very confusing and a little bit controversial regarding your criteria.
Now that's a great avatar

[anarci]

1.Roberto Duran
2.Ray Robinson
3.Henry Armstrong.
4.Muhamad Ali
5.Willie Pep
6.Ray Leonard
7.Ezzard Charles
8.Pernell Whittaker
9Julio Cesar Chavez
10.Sam Langford
Harry Greb,Sandy Sadler,Benny Leonard,Carlos Monzon,Marvin Hagler,Barbados Joe right behind.
Actually you could arrange the top 3 any way you want and I wouldnt disagree, I just put Duran cause hes my favorite,and cause hes at least 3 anyways.

[TommyV]

start with mine :
1. Sam Langford
2. Young Peter Jackson
3. Mike Tyson
4. Rocky Marciano
5. Muhammad Qawi
6. Manny Pacquiao
7. Roberto Duran
8. Ray Leonard
9. Joe Walcott
10. Ray Robinson

worth mentioning : Hector Camacho , Julio Cesar Chavez , Vinny Pazienza , Frankie Randall , Pernell Whitaker , Floyd Mayweather , Ronald Wright , Oscar Delahoya , Henry Armstrong , Mysterious Billy Smith , Ezzard Charles , Charley Burley , Chris Byrd , James Toney , David Tua , Reggie Johnson , Jorge Fernando Castro , too many to choose from

and there can be some minor mistakes and swaps in it but this is why you can post yours to compare with mine.

Excellent list, here's mine:

1 Mike Tyson
2 Rocky Marciano
3 Koki Kameda
4 Oscar De La Hoya
5 Iran Barkley
6 Jack Dempsey
7 Joe Calzaghe
8 Barry McGuigan
9 Paul Williams
10 Edward Rackley

[anarci]

start with mine :
1. Sam Langford
2. Young Peter Jackson
3. Mike Tyson
4. Rocky Marciano
5. Muhammad Qawi
6. Manny Pacquiao
7. Roberto Duran
8. Ray Leonard
9. Joe Walcott
10. Ray Robinson

worth mentioning : Hector Camacho , Julio Cesar Chavez , Vinny Pazienza , Frankie Randall , Pernell Whitaker , Floyd Mayweather , Ronald Wright , Oscar Delahoya , Henry Armstrong , Mysterious Billy Smith , Ezzard Charles , Charley Burley , Chris Byrd , James Toney , David Tua , Reggie Johnson , Jorge Fernando Castro , too many to choose from

and there can be some minor mistakes and swaps in it but this is why you can post yours to compare with mine.
I just think these are the only guys you have seen Box and you only threw in Langford,Jackson,Walcott,Smith,Burley,Armstrong in so that you can make people think that you know about boxing.:verysad

[Robbi]

1.Roberto Duran
2.Ray Robinson
3.Henry Armstrong.
4.Muhamad Ali
5.Willie Pep
6.Ray Leonard
7.Pernell Whittaker
8.Julio Cesar Chavez
9.Sam Langford
10.Harry Greb- Sandy Sadler
Actually you could arrange the top 3 any way you want and I wouldnt disagree, I just put Duran cause hes my favorite,and cause hes at least 3 anyways.

Prepare to be 'stoned' to death on here by a few experts. :good

[TommyV]

1.Roberto Duran
2.Ray Robinson
3.Henry Armstrong.
4.Muhamad Ali
5.Willie Pep
6.Ray Leonard
7.Pernell Whittaker
8.Julio Cesar Chavez
9.Sam Langford
10.Harry Greb- Sandy Sadler
Actually you could arrange the top 3 any way you want and I wouldnt disagree, I just put Duran cause hes my favorite,and cause hes at least 3 anyways.

Prepare to be 'stoned' to death on here by a few experts. :good

How did you know that was coming? :lol:

-

@anarci:

In my opinion of course:


Duran shouldn't exceed spot 6.
Whitaker shouldn't be above 15/16
Langford should be top 4.
Ali shouldn't be top 4, nobody should but Robinson, Greb, Armstrong & Langford.
Obviously therefore Greb should be a lot higher.
Leonard shouldn't be top 10, no higher than 12/13/14.
Chavez is way too high. I'd hesistate to put him top 20. 27-32 sounds about right.
Ezzard Charles should be in there somewhere, no lower than #7/8.

[TommyV]

Mine would probably be:

1 Sammy Langford
2 Harry Greb
3 Sugar Ray Robinson
4 Henry Armstrong
5 Ezzard Charles
6 Roberto Duran
7 Willie Pep
8 Benny Leonard
9 Mickey Walker
10 Bob Fitzsimmons

Slate away. :lol: (Before any says, Ali is #11. Easily interchangable with Fitz)

[anarci]

Prepare to be 'stoned' to death on here by a few experts. :good Im ready, I can make a case for anyone on this list,although Duran at 1 might be biased but hes no lower than 3. I am well schooled in the sweet science and ready for anyone who thinks they are gonna school me in Boxing 101.

[anarci]

How did you know that was coming? :lol:

-

@anarci:

In my opinion of course:


Duran shouldn't exceed spot 6.
Whitaker shouldn't be above 15/16
Langford should be top 4.
Ali shouldn't be top 4, nobody should but Robinson, Greb, Armstrong & Langford.
Obviously therefore Greb should be a lot higher.
Leonard shouldn't be top 10, no higher than 12/13/14.
Chavez is way too high. I'd hesistate to put him top 20. 27-32 sounds about right.
Ezzard Charles should be in there somewhere, no lower than #7/8.

:patsch I messed up and Forgot Charles so i edited my list I have him at 7,Its difficult for me to rate Langford and some turn of the century greats whos fighting technique was almost stoneage,however I know guys like Langford,Barbados Joe have incredible resumes there fore i do mention them.Ali was the Greatest Heavyweight of all time and Unbeatable in before the draft. Greb was great and deserves to be around 10 but Tiger Flowers had his #. Leonard had a great resume regardless of only having 40 fights and also the best fighter of the last 30 years. Chavez has become severly underrated on ESB and Ive stated my reasons a Zillion times on this forum

[TommyV]

Im ready, I can make a case for anyone on this list,although Duran at 1 might be biased but hes no lower than 3. I am well schooled in the sweet science and ready for anyone who thinks they are gonna school me in Boxing 101.

I'd like to here your reasoning for having Langford and Greb so far given the quality and depth of both of their resumés.

I mean Langford's consists of Joe Gans, Harry Wills, Jeff Clark, Joe Jeanette, Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, Sam McVey, draw with Barbados Joe, Kid Norfolk, George Godfrey, Gunboat Smith and Jack Blackburn to name a few.

And Greb's is arguably even better, wins over Gene Tunney, Tiger Flowers, Tommy Loughran, Mickey Walker, Maxie Rosenbloom, Al McCoy, Gunboat Smith, Jack Renault, Jack Dilllon, Battling Levinsky, Mike McTigue, Billy Miske, Jack Blackburn, Tommy Gibbons & Kid Norfolk.

[anarci]

IVe already mentioned my reasons for Langford. Greb has an awesome resume and although Boxing had improved technique wise I just cant see him beating the guys I have above him. Besides 10 or 11 is a pretty prestigious ranking, i feel there is only thin hairs seperating the top of the atg list. Like I said before Tiger Flowers owned Greb. Archie Moore also deserves to be mentioned here.

[frankenfrank]

Excellent list, here's mine:

1 Mike Tyson
2 Rocky Marciano
3 Koki Kameda
4 Oscar De La Hoya
5 Iran Barkley
6 Jack Dempsey
7 Joe Calzaghe
8 Barry McGuigan
9 Paul Williams
10 Edward Rackley
Iran Barkley ? top10 p4p all time ? no.
check boxrec and then youtube for why.
not even top 30.
what did he do p4p to deserve being above leonard ? losing a SD to a midget duran ? getting stopped in 1st rd by nigel benn ? stopped by toney ? he was not even a top 20 fighter in any of the divisions he ever was in. and williams with his physical advantages also does not deserve to be here especially considering his loss to a quintana despite avenging it convincingly.
so many fighters deserve to be there more at least than these 2 :
ray leonard , young peter jackson who went a longer distance with jack johnson than langford did , and stopped langford himself btw.
ezzard charles , qawi (why tyson yes marciano yes and him no ?) ,
james toney , even roid jones , jorge fernando castro and reggie johnson also deserve being there more than barkley for sure and more than williams clearly.

[Sweet Pea]

Greb has an awesome resume and although Boxing had improved technique wise I just cant see him beating the guys I have above him.Hardly any of them fought in the same weight range as him, so that's a pretty irrelevant criteria.

Like I said before Tiger Flowers owned Greb.No, he didn't. Those are very disputed decisions, and Greb was an aging, half-blind warrior by that time anyway.

[TommyV]

Ali was the Greatest Heavyweight of all time and Unbeatable in before the draft.

Yes, arguably the Greatest Heavyweight Of All-Time, but unbeatable before the draft? I don't really think so. No doubt he had outstanding ability. The foot & hand speed of a light-weight, great lateral movement, confidence, a great chin, ability to sustain heavy-damage to the body, an ATG jab, a very good right hand before it, and blistering combinations, not to mention under-rated power.

But 'unbeatable'? That's a strong word. He had his flaws like every fighter. He was so good defensively because of his feet, when it comes down to it, if a guy cut the ring off well as Frazier did, he was open and hittable, especially with that left-hook.

And in that regard, when he couldn't time Frazier's head-movement, he didn't know how to go to the body and put on a sustained attack. Also, he relied on a guy coming to him. He didn't know how to really go about pressing a fighter.

I think Frazier had the beating of him. The FOTC would back me up on this. This was the fight with a prime Frazier and arguably a prime Ali. He may of missed his 'real' prime years in '68/69, but he certainly wasn't past his best. He was still in shape and still at the top of his game. And Frazier beat him. Ali would always have a chance of getting beaten by a top-level pressure fighter like Frazier or even Marciano, and may struggle to break down a defensively orientated fighter.

Greb was great and deserves to be around 10 but Tiger Flowers had his #.

Flowers? Greb was past his prime when Tiger beat him, and Greb showed what he could do when he wasn't so far attached from his prime years when he edged a newspaper decision over Flowers earlier. Regardless, you can't place him outside the top 4 in regards with his resumé, and if you are knocking him down for losing a trilogy to Tiger, then you can't knock him down 6 places for losing to a awkward, tricky southpaw with a tight-guard that would of given anybody problems & was a great in his own right.

Leonard had a great resume regardless of only having 40 fights and also the best fighter of the last 30 years.

True, but he also lost in his prime years to a lightweight - albeit not just any lightweight in Duran - and was getting outboxed by Hearns, while also perhaps fortunate to get a decision over Hagler. Great wins all of those, but 2 that he could easily of lost and 1 that he actually did in Duran, although avenged. Benitez is a great win aswell, I mean I'm not arguably that despite a short resumé, it's outstanding, but top 10 I think is pushing it. Longetivity does count for something you know.

Chavez has become severly underrated on ESB and Ive stated my reasons a Zillion times on this forum

I've never picked up on any of your posts about him I'm afraid to say. I'd like to here a case for having him top 10 though if you wouldn't mind, no matter how brief your defence of him may be.

[Sweet Pea]

Frankenfrank is obviously an alias and/or just a new troll account. He makes it more and more clear each time he posts. No actual person could be as amazingly stupid as he portrays himself.

[TommyV]

Iran Barkley ? top10 p4p all time ? no.
check boxrec and then youtube for why.
not even top 30.
what did he do p4p to deserve being above leonard ? losing a SD to a midget duran ? getting stopped in 1st rd by nigel benn ? stopped by toney ? he was not even a top 20 fighter in any of the divisions he ever was in. and williams with his physical advantages also does not deserve to be here especially considering his loss to a quintana despite avenging it convincingly.
so many fighters deserve to be there more at least than these 2 :
ray leonard , young peter jackson who went a longer distance with jack johnson than langford did , and stopped langford himself btw.
ezzard charles , qawi (why tyson yes marciano yes and him no ?) ,
james toney , even roid jones , jorge fernando castro and reggie johnson also deserve being there more than barkley for sure and more than williams clearly.

If you look around more carefully, you will see my real list, rather than the one I patched together to take the piss out of your own car-crash of a top 10 P4P list. Please go back to the General Forum. I honestly can't deal with reading any more of your shit. The Classic has a reputation for having the most-knowledgable posters on the site, posters who I wish to learn from, rather than picking up on your retarded posts.

[Robbi]

Im ready, I can make a case for anyone on this list,although Duran at 1 might be biased but hes no lower than 3. I am well schooled in the sweet science and ready for anyone who thinks they are gonna school me in Boxing 101.

Thats your list. I repeat "your" list. What you know about boxing and fighters records is put together and thats what you come up with.

Some people have different criteria. Many people include fighters simply by whats on paper rather than footage too. Greb gets the benefit of the doubt at times. Can you imagine someone safely placing Hagler in a top 20 having never seen any of his fights and knowing little about some of opposition? It's exactly the same scenario.

[anarci]

Yes, arguably the Greatest Heavyweight Of All-Time, but unbeatable before the draft? I don't really think so. No doubt he had outstanding ability. The foot & hand speed of a light-weight, great lateral movement, confidence, a great chin, ability to sustain heavy-damage to the body, an ATG jab, a very good right hand before it, and blistering combinations, not to mention under-rated power.

But 'unbeatable'? That's a strong word. He had his flaws like every fighter. He was so good defensively because of his feet, when it comes down to it, if a guy cut the ring off well as Frazier did, he was open and hittable, especially with that left-hook.

And in that regard, when he couldn't time Frazier's head-movement, he didn't know how to go to the body and put on a sustained attack. Also, he relied on a guy coming to him. He didn't know how to really go about pressing a fighter.

I think Frazier had the beating of him. The FOTC would back me up on this. This was the fight with a prime Frazier and arguably a prime Ali. He may of missed his 'real' prime years in '68/69, but he certainly wasn't past his best. He was still in shape and still at the top of his game. And Frazier beat him. Ali would always have a chance of getting beaten by a top-level pressure fighter like Frazier or even Marciano, and may struggle to break down a defensively orientated fighter.



Flowers? Greb was past his prime when Tiger beat him, and Greb showed what he could do when he wasn't so far attached from his prime years when he edged a newspaper decision over Flowers earlier. Regardless, you can't place him outside the top 4 in regards with his resumé, and if you are knocking him down for losing a trilogy to Tiger, then you can't knock him down 6 places for losing to a awkward, tricky southpaw with a tight-guard that would of given anybody problems & was a great in his own right.



True, but he also lost in his prime years to a lightweight - albeit not just any lightweight in Duran - and was getting outboxed by Hearns, while also perhaps fortunate to get a decision over Hagler. Great wins all of those, but 2 that he could easily of lost and 1 that he actually did in Duran, although avenged. Benitez is a great win aswell, I mean I'm not arguably that despite a short resumé, it's outstanding, but top 10 I think is pushing it. Longetivity does count for something you know.



I've never picked up on any of your posts about him I'm afraid to say. I'd like to here a case for having him top 10 though if you wouldn't mind, no matter how brief your defence of him may be. I think you were nitpicking on SRL, Like if there is any shame in getting out boxed by one of THE best Offensive fighters in History. Then coming back to knock him out to me shows how great he was,the Duran argument holds no water cause as you will see I have him #1 on my list,Hagler is probably my #2 at middleweight and I felt Leonard edged him out,besides Leonard wasnt in his prime either and had been off for awhile. As for Greb being old well Flowers was also at the tail end of his career,and like I said earlier there is not much seperating The top of the atg list. I also thought Greb took more of a shellacking than he did, i checked it out and I guess these fights were much closer than i had thought. Chavez had 27 title defenses(MOST EVER) 3 division champ reigning pfp fighter for a while also Arguably greatest Jl of all time,greatest JW of all time,and Lightweight was his best weight he just didnt stay long enough to establish himself in that weight. Defeated Countless champs throughout his career, and rregardless of his early career wins 1/2 of his career total were still over quality opposition,besides all the old timers with crazy amounts of wins were not against the greatest opposition early on. Chavez resume matches them and surpasses many. FInd the Post on Chavez opinions i posted more

[TommyV]

Chavez had 27 title defenses(MOST EVER)

All well and good, but Joe Calzaghe also had 21. Doesn't automatically put him up there with the best

3 division champ

Who did he win those against though? Rosario was a good win, the others he won against Angel Hernandez - dismantled by a green Tszyu a couple of years later, and Mario Martinez. Arguably greatest Jl of all time

Arguello? Mayweather?

greatest JW of all time

Tszyu? Pryor?

Defeated Countless champs throughout his career, and rregardless of his early career wins 1/2 of his career total were still over quality opposition

I think you'd be hard pressed to find 57 quality naames on his resumé.

,besides all the old timers with crazy amounts of wins were not against the greatest opposition early on

But guys in the top 10 with him like Langford & Greb have outstanding resumés packed with wins over great fighters. Off the top of my head a few names Chavez has beaten - Taylor, Camacho, Rosario, Ramirez, Hauge, Randall, Limon. Don't get me wrong, some very good wins there, but comparable to Greb's record?

[Boilermaker]

:patsch I messed up and Forgot Charles so i edited my list I have him at 7,Its difficult for me to rate Langford and some turn of the century greats whos fighting technique was almost stoneage,however I know guys like Langford,Barbados Joe have incredible resumes there fore i do mention them.Ali was the Greatest Heavyweight of all time and Unbeatable in before the draft. Greb was great and deserves to be around 10 but Tiger Flowers had his #. Leonard had a great resume regardless of only having 40 fights and also the best fighter of the last 30 years. Chavez has become severly underrated on ESB and Ive stated my reasons a Zillion times on this forum

I think it is a decent list but I am assuming from you list that you have not considered the guy who:

was considered the best middleweight in the world for longer than anyone else;
was considered the best light heavyweight in the world for longer than anyone else;
was considered the best fighter in the world for a decent period of time.
was considered at top 3 heavyweight in the world for nearly 8 years.

All while weighing in between the middleweight and light heavyweight limit.

Am i correct in this assumption?

[McGrain]

01 - Sam Langford
02 - Harry Greb
03 - Sugar Ray Robinson
04 - Henry Armstrong
05 - Ezzard Charles
06 - Muhammad Ali
07 - Roberto Duran
08 - Willie Pep
09 - Bob Fitzsimmons
10 - Benny Leonard

[stevebhoy87]

Something like

Robinson
Greb
Armstrong
Langford
Charles
Duran
Ali
Ray Leonard
Walker
Pep

[TommyV]

01 - Sam Langford
02 - Harry Greb
03 - Sugar Ray Robinson
04 - Henry Armstrong
05 - Ezzard Charles
06 - Muhammad Ali
07 - Roberto Duran
08 - Willie Pep
09 - Bob Fitzsimmons
10 - Barney Ross

No Mickey Walker anymore McGrain? :sad2

[Boilermaker]

01 - Sam Langford
02 - Harry Greb
03 - Sugar Ray Robinson
04 - Henry Armstrong
05 - Ezzard Charles
06 - Muhammad Ali
07 - Roberto Duran
08 - Willie Pep
09 - Bob Fitzsimmons
10 - Barney Ross

Barney Ross over Benny Leonard? I am guessing that i need to take a closer look at at Barney Ross.

[McGrain]

No Mickey Walker anymore McGrain? :sad2

#11, but funnily enough I couldn't sleep last night for worrying about it :lol:

Barney Ross over Benny Leonard? I am guessing that i need to take a closer look at at Barney Ross.

Nah, I just typed the wrong name...fixed.

[Boom_Boom]

1. SRR
2. Harry Greb
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Sam Langford
5. Roberto Duran
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Ray Leonard
8. Willie Pep
9. Muhammed Ali
10. Archie Moore

[TommyV]

#11, but funnily enough I couldn't sleep last night for worrying about it :lol:

:lol:

[anarci]

Tommy V Yesterday you mentioned how Calzaghe had 21 and said does that put him on top of the list. Of course not Calzaghes Opposition was no where near Chavez's. You tend to make silly comparisons Tszyu being on Par with a prime Chavez at JW PUUleease. Pryor was right there but id still put Chavez above him at JW.
Also your facts were wrong Chavez beat Martinez,Rosario and Mayweatherand unifying against Taylor for his 3 titles not Hernandez. I agree that the greatest Jl could be either Arguello or Chavez with Mayweather in the mix,but Chavez actually got better when he moved to lightweight,and still fought on at an elite championship level for another 11 to 12 years,im not gonna list every quality fighter cause ive done it numerous times already and the list is very long i forgot how many champs hes beaten but its a staggering amount,along with a handful of undefeated contenders.

[Henke67]

Mine would be something like;

1. Ray Robinson
2. Sam Langford
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Harry Greb
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Willie Pep
7. Roberto Duran
8. Muhammad Ali
9. Benny Leonard
10. Mickey Walker

The top five is pretty much set in stone, numbers 6 - 8 interchange places constantly and Archie Moore often just sneaks in.

That's it today though.

[Nick Balsamo]

1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Harry Greb
4. Sam Langford
5. Willie Pep
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Benny Leonard
8. Roberto Duran
9. Muhammad Ali
10. Joe Gans

HM: Ray Leonard, Pernell Whitaker, Archie Moore

[Sweet Pea]

Try this one on for size.

1. Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Sam Langford
5. Bob Fitzsimmons
6. Roberto Duran
7. Ezzard Charles
8. Benny Leonard
9. Muhammad Ali
10. George Dixon

[WhataRock]

Loving the Dixon kool aide at the moment arent ya Pea?

[Sweet Pea]

Loving the Dixon kool aide at the moment arent ya Pea?A bit more than the McAuliffe brand anyway. That list was an experiment anyway, just looking for a few opinions.

[WhataRock]

Cant say I know much about him...other then Id have him behind Langford and McLarnin in my Canadian rankings.

[KTFO]

Mysterious Billy Smith should def be on that list.

[natonic]

1 Ray Robinson
2 Harry Greb
3 Sam Langford
4 Ezzard Charles
5 Roberto Duran
6 Henry Armstrong
7 Willie Pep
8 Muhammed Ali
9 Benny Leonard
10 Ray Leonard

[McGrain]

10. George Dixon


Best four names on his resume?

[Flea Man]

Frankenwank; WORST
LIST
EVER
:rofl

[Flea Man]

Off the top of my head

1. Ray Robinson
2. Roberto Duran
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Harry Greb
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Ali
7. Langford


That was without thinking, the last couple need some more thought. Thinking Ross, Loughran, Ted Lewis, Hagler, Berg, Arguello. All close.

Probably some glaring omissions and if I really think the order might change but these 7 (plus Ross) are pretty much the best 8 fighters I've ever heard of (resume+skill=all-time standing)

[Flea Man]

By the way, what have I missed about Young Peter Jackson? Never heard of him.

[TheGreatA]

By the way, what have I missed about Young Peter Jackson? Never heard of him.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Wins over Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, Mysterious Billy Smith, Barbados Joe Walcott, Sam Langford, all by TKO's.

Let's not forget however that all these men generally got the better of him despite Jackson also scoring wins over them.

Impressive fighter but top 3 pound for pound? That's a stretch.

[Flea Man]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Wins over Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, Mysterious Billy Smith, Barbados Joe Walcott, Sam Langford, all by TKO's.

Let's not forget however that all these men generally got the better of him despite Jackson also scoring wins over them.

Impressive fighter but top 3 pound for pound? That's a stretch.

:good Couldn't find anyhting comprehensive online. As always you are The Man:good:good:deal

[ricardoparker93]

1. Armstrong
2. Robinson
3. Charles
4. Greb (could be higher if I'd actually seen him fight)
5. Langford
6. Walker
7. B. Leonard
8. Louis
9. Whitaker
10. R. Leonard

Honorable Mention: Ali, Duran, Ross

whitaker above Ali and Duran? Another truly shite list

[Sweet Pea]

Best four names on his resume?According to Boxrec, anyway? His record there is very incomplete according to most accounts, marred by robberies and dives galore as well. The best opponents he faced were probably Jim Driscoll, Abe Attell, Terry McGovern, and Young Griffo.

[IntentionalButt]

This thread is like eight tabs of acid to the face.

[Unforgiven]

start with mine :
1. Sam Langford
2. Young Peter Jackson
3. Mike Tyson
4. Rocky Marciano
5. Muhammad Qawi
6. Manny Pacquiao
7. Roberto Duran
8. Ray Leonard
9. Joe Walcott
10. Ray Robinson

Duran above Robinson !!?!?
What are you nuts ?

[TheGreatA]

Duran above Robinson !!?!?
What are you nuts ?

Out of all the fighters he ranked above Robinson you chose to mention Duran? How about Dwight Qawi, Mike Tyson, Manny Pacquiao, Young Peter Jackson...

The list is just a plain trainwreck, like most of frankenfrank's posts.

[J26]

Dixon was one of the best of all time. He was the first ever black prize fighter to win a world boxing title.

The newpapers of Dixon's time hailed him as "The greatest of them all." Sam Austin, editor of the Gazette once called Dixon a fighter without a flaw.

Nat Fleischer, described him as “a marvel of cleverness, yet he could hit and slug with the best of them. He was fast, tricky, combative, canny, courageous, a master in every respect of the art of self-defense, a great ring general. His left hand was one of the best in the business. His double left to the body has never been equaled. His right was equally good”

Tom O'Rourke described Dixon thusly, "Of all the fighters I have seen none can compare to Dixon in all around fighting ability. What a wonderful left hand! What a double corking punch to the head and body! What a fighting heart and fighting head! What a superb, all around mastery of the manly art he possessed!" (Oct. 1936 Ring Magazine.)

As one of the posters has said. Alot of Dixon's setbacks and losses have been due to prejudice, and the colour of his skin. The Sept. 30, 1893 Police Gazette reported “Nearly every time Dixon has been pitted against a champion, no matter whether foreign or native, the majority has named Dixon the loser, probably through prejudice, owing to his color, yet he has won.”

The newspaper record proves that Dixon was robbed of a good number of victories in his career. One being against fellow Hall Of Famer Abe Attell.

In the Sep. 14, 1901 Police Gazette, the bout was ruled a draw by the Referee. Reading the account however, it is clear that Dixon deserved the decision. Dixon floored Attell in the first round with a right to the chin. In the third round, “They got in a fierce mix, raining in face and body blows one after the other. Dixon seemed to have the better of the going.” Dixon staggered Abe in the eighth. Dixon also finished strongly but the Ref refused to declare Dixon the winner.

In a Featherweight championship match against Cal McCarthy on Mar. 31, 1891 Dixon had to knock out his opponent twice! In the third round little George knocked McCarthy out cold. But the referee, as in a London Prize Ring Rules, allowed McCarthy’s managers to drag him to his corner and revive him. This is strictly against the rules of the Marquis of Queensbury that governed this bout. Dixon’s manager protested but to no avail. Dixon eventually won by knockout in the 22nd round “with a flurry of offensive fighting.” McCarthy couldn’t continue and Dixon won by knockout.

Dixon, because of the color of his skin, often had to fight under unfair and even dangerous circumstances. There were no boxing commissions in those days and the gamblers controlled boxing. So I would advise not to judge Dixon's career of looking at his ''Boxrec''. Because must of his losses and record are under sketchy circumstances to say the least.


Dixon participated in the three-day Carnival of Champions at the Olympia Club in New Orleans, where most of boxing's top contenders met. Dixon was matched against the amateur champion Jack Skelly, who was white. Dixon controlled the action from the start, broke Skelly's nose, and knocked him out in the eighth. White fans at the match reacted with shock and disgust, and to keep peace, the Olympia Club decided not to conduct any more mixed-race matches. The racist reaction to this fight led to limited black access to other matches, including heavyweight championships.

Nat Fleischer once said I doubt ever in the history of pugilism has there ever been a fighter of his weight who engaged in so many thrilling battles, most of them finish fights, and yet he was able to remain at the height of his power for so long”

Dixon held the bantamweight (1890) and featherweight Titles (1891-1897, 1898-1900) winning his first championship at just age 20. Dixon entered the pro ring at just age 16, in his natuve Halifax, Nova Scotia in 1886.

He fought in 23 world championship bouts (some records indicate 33)

Dixon held the Featherweight championship while never weighing beyond 118 pounds.

He often beat men who were natural lightweights. His official record shows 158 bouts, but his record fails to record the actual number of fights he had as many were contested in dance halls and theatres around the country.

Dixon’s manager who traveled with him claimed, before he died, that Dixon had over 800 fights sometimes fighting up to 15 times a week, One issue of the National Police Gazette indicates he had over 1,000.

It was sad how Dixon ended up. He died penniless, just three years after retiring.

[McGrain]

According to Boxrec, anyway?.

Have you got some more bits and peices lying around? I keep meaning to have a closer look, but i've never really got down to it. Also, it IS harder because he was black. Black pugilists just recieved less coverage in the press, end of story.

[McGrain]

One issue of the National Police Gazette indicates he had over 1,000.

That's very interesting.

Police Gazette is interesting. Many of the calls for Sullivan to face Jackson that I have seen were made by the PG.

[TheGreatA]

Dixon was one of the best of all time. He was the first ever black prize fighter to win a world boxing title.

The newpapers of Dixon's time hailed him as "The greatest of them all." Sam Austin, editor of the Gazette once called Dixon a fighter without a flaw.

Nat Fleischer, described him as “a marvel of cleverness, yet he could hit and slug with the best of them. He was fast, tricky, combative, canny, courageous, a master in every respect of the art of self-defense, a great ring general. His left hand was one of the best in the business. His double left to the body has never been equaled. His right was equally good”

Tom O'Rourke described Dixon thusly, "Of all the fighters I have seen none can compare to Dixon in all around fighting ability. What a wonderful left hand! What a double corking punch to the head and body! What a fighting heart and fighting head! What a superb, all around mastery of the manly art he possessed!" (Oct. 1936 Ring Magazine.)

As one of the posters has said. Alot of Dixon's setbacks and losses have been due to prejudice, and the colour of his skin. The Sept. 30, 1893 Police Gazette reported “Nearly every time Dixon has been pitted against a champion, no matter whether foreign or native, the majority has named Dixon the loser, probably through prejudice, owing to his color, yet he has won.”

The newspaper record proves that Dixon was robbed of a good number of victories in his career. One being against fellow Hall Of Famer Abe Attell.

In the Sep. 14, 1901 Police Gazette, the bout was ruled a draw by the Referee. Reading the account however, it is clear that Dixon deserved the decision. Dixon floored Attell in the first round with a right to the chin. In the third round, “They got in a fierce mix, raining in face and body blows one after the other. Dixon seemed to have the better of the going.” Dixon staggered Abe in the eighth. Dixon also finished strongly but the Ref refused to declare Dixon the winner.

In a Featherweight championship match against Cal McCarthy on Mar. 31, 1891 Dixon had to knock out his opponent twice! In the third round little George knocked McCarthy out cold. But the referee, as in a London Prize Ring Rules, allowed McCarthy’s managers to drag him to his corner and revive him. This is strictly against the rules of the Marquis of Queensbury that governed this bout. Dixon’s manager protested but to no avail. Dixon eventually won by knockout in the 22nd round “with a flurry of offensive fighting.” McCarthy couldn’t continue and Dixon won by knockout.

Dixon, because of the color of his skin, often had to fight under unfair and even dangerous circumstances. There were no boxing commissions in those days and the gamblers controlled boxing. So I would advise not to judge Dixon's career of looking at his ''Boxrec''. Because must of his losses and record are under sketchy circumstances to say the least.


Dixon participated in the three-day Carnival of Champions at the Olympia Club in New Orleans, where most of boxing's top contenders met. Dixon was matched against the amateur champion Jack Skelly, who was white. Dixon controlled the action from the start, broke Skelly's nose, and knocked him out in the eighth. White fans at the match reacted with shock and disgust, and to keep peace, the Olympia Club decided not to conduct any more mixed-race matches. The racist reaction to this fight led to limited black access to other matches, including heavyweight championships.

Nat Fleischer once said I doubt ever in the history of pugilism has there ever been a fighter of his weight who engaged in so many thrilling battles, most of them finish fights, and yet he was able to remain at the height of his power for so long”

Dixon held the bantamweight (1890) and featherweight Titles (1891-1897, 1898-1900) winning his first championship at just age 20. Dixon entered the pro ring at just age 16, in his natuve Halifax, Nova Scotia in 1886.

He fought in 23 world championship bouts (some records indicate 33)

Dixon held the Featherweight championship while never weighing beyond 118 pounds.

He often beat men who were natural lightweights. His official record shows 158 bouts, but his record fails to record the actual number of fights he had as many were contested in dance halls and theatres around the country.

Dixon’s manager who traveled with him claimed, before he died, that Dixon had over 800 fights sometimes fighting up to 15 times a week, One issue of the National Police Gazette indicates he had over 1,000.

It was sad how Dixon ended up. He died penniless, just three years after retiring.

Don't forget to post your source of information...

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[McGrain]

:lol:

Don't forget to post your source of information...

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[J26]

Don't forget to post your source of information...

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Actually read closely. You will find that there is alot of things that aren't mentioned in that article. And all the quotes I used from managers, writers etc, were all from my own libary.

All them quotes were said before that article was produced. Just because they were used in that article dosen't mean they own them.

[Sweet Pea]

I knew as soon as he wrote it up where it was from, but then this guy has only posted quotes and/or articles from well reknowned sources. I don't think he means to pass it off as his own like that hack St Boxing.

Here's another interesting bit from the Cox article:

Callis also wrote, “Dixon won nearly 90 percent of the draws and losses on his record but due to various reasons he did not get credit for a win; e.g. racial attitude of the times judged him as loser instead of winner (in some bouts), he had to carry opponents in order to get fights, as well as specific rules for a given fight - i.e. the verdict would be draw if no knockout was scored.”

[TheGreatA]

Actually read closely. You will find that there is alot of things that aren't mentioned in that article. And all the quotes I used from managers, writers etc, were all from my own libary.

All them quotes were said before that article was produced. Just because they were used in that article dosen't mean they own them.

You've obviously taken the information from that article (as well as [Only registered and activated users can see links]) and simply changed a few words

I don't mind that but you should atleast give credit to the sources that you've gotten your information from instead of talking about your "own library".

[J26]

I knew as soon as he wrote it up where it was from, but then this guy has only posted quotes and/or articles from well reknowned sources. I don't think he means to pass it off as his own like that hack St Boxing.

Here's another interesting bit from the Cox article:

Callis also wrote, “Dixon won nearly 90 percent of the draws and losses on his record but due to various reasons he did not get credit for a win; e.g. racial attitude of the times judged him as loser instead of winner (in some bouts), he had to carry opponents in order to get fights, as well as specific rules for a given fight - i.e. the verdict would be draw if no knockout was scored.”

The quotes on Dixon I never got from Cox Corner. Like I said before, due to them being used in that article, dosen't mean they own them.

I have them things on Dixon, years before them articles were ever written. I feel I have some very interesting things to share about the sweet science and I feel I can make some interesting contributions to this forum due to my knowlodge of boxing.

[J26]

You've obviously taken the information from that article (as well as [Only registered and activated users can see links]) and simply changed a few words

I don't mind that but you should atleast give credit to the sources that you've gotten your information from instead of talking about your "own library".

Why would I lie? I recently gave credit to Teddy Atlas for sharing information about a Foreman vs Moorer rematch.

I have all this information in my libary. And don't need to copy of websites. And If I did, I would admit it.

[TheGreatA]

Why would I lie? I recently gave credit to Teddy Atlas for sharing information about a Foreman vs Moorer rematch.

I have all this information in my libary. And don't need to copy of websites. And If I did, I would admit it.

Dixon, because of the color of his skin, often had to fight under unfair and even dangerous circumstances. There were no boxing commissions in those days and the gamblers controlled boxing.



Dixon, because of the color of his skin, often had to fight under unfair and even dangerous circumstances. There were no boxing commissions in those days and the gamblers controlled the sport.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Dixon participated in the three-day Carnival of Champions at the Olympia Club in New Orleans, where most of boxing's top contenders met. Dixon was matched against the amateur champion Jack Skelly, who was white. Dixon controlled the action from the start, broke Skelly's nose, and knocked him out in the eighth. White fans at the match reacted with shock and disgust, and to keep peace, the Olympia Club decided not to conduct any more mixed-race matches. The racist reaction to this fight led to limited black access to other matches, including heavyweight championships.

"Dixon participated in the three-day Carnival of Champions at the Olympia Club in New Orleans, where most of boxing's top contenders met. Dixon was matched against the amateur champion Jack Skelly, who was white. Dixon controlled the action from the start, broke Skelly's nose, and knocked him out in the eighth. White fans at the match reacted with shock and disgust, and to keep peace, the Olympia Club decided not to conduct any more mixed-race matches. The racist reaction to this fight led to limited black access to other matches, including heavyweight championships."

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Whatever. I personally think it's plainly obvious but I don't deny your contributions to this board. Keep up the good work.

[McGrain]

:

Callis also wrote, “Dixon won nearly 90 percent of the draws and losses on his record but due to various reasons he did not get credit for a win; e.g. racial attitude of the times judged him as loser instead of winner (in some bouts), he had to carry opponents in order to get fights, as well as specific rules for a given fight - i.e. the verdict would be draw if no knockout was scored.”


Interesting that he refers to "special rules" for something that was pretty normal around that time...maybe it was just a short-cut to aid the modern reader? Anyway, interesting springboard, someone really ought to take the fighter to task, see if there's a bottom to get to :hey

[J26]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]





[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Whatever. I personally think it's plainly obvious but I don't deny your contributions to this board. Keep up the good work.

The same things that I have in my collection, are written in these articles, due to them being amazing stories of how good of a fighter Dixon was.

It dosen't mean I have copied them.......

[Rumsfeld]

This thread is like eight tabs of acid to the face.

:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

[Rise Above]

Is this the ESB thread for people with mental retardation ? What the fuck kind of list is that.

[frankenfrank]

Out of all the fighters he ranked above Robinson you chose to mention Duran? How about Dwight Qawi, Mike Tyson, Manny Pacquiao, Young Peter Jackson...

The list is just a plain trainwreck, like most of frankenfrank's posts.
and like most of posters here you don't know p4p meaning and not about boxing's dynamics. only about its history.
young peter jackson went 12 rounds with jack johnson as a small light middleweight.
he stopped sam langford.
avenged his stoppage loss to mysterious billy smith with a much quicker stoppage.

[WhataRock]

and like most of posters here you don't know p4p meaning and not about boxing's dynamics. only about its history.
young peter jackson went 12 rounds with jack johnson as a small light middleweight.
he stopped sam langford.
avenged his stoppage loss to mysterious billy smith with a much quicker stoppage.

:lol:

And you do?

Jackson was a good fighter and underrated/forgotten somewhat...But you fail to look the context of those wins you picked out...Like Langford was pre-prime and barely in his 20's when Jackson defeated him ONCE out of like 6 or 7 meetings.

He repeatedly lost to the best fighters he faced...Its really as simple as that, he showed he was a level below the best fighters of that era and ranking him top 10 alltime shows you know fuck all about the sport.

[frankenfrank]

Duran above Robinson !!?!?
What are you nuts ?
no. you just do not know the purpose of p4p.
it is to measure skill. to secret it from facors like size.
duran was the smaller man in most of his fights.
robinson enjoyed size advantage almost every time.
when he did not , he was TKO'd.
a 5'11" duran would have demolished robinson.
and qawi did better against foreman than frazier did , and better against holyfield than tyson did. and the qawi who lost to foreman was spastic and obese. still made him look bad.

[frankenfrank]

:lol:

And you do?

Jackson was a good fighter and underrated/forgotten somewhat...But you fail to look the context of those wins you picked out...Like Langford was pre-prime and barely in his 20's when Jackson defeated him ONCE out of like 6 or 7 meetings.

He repeatedly lost to the best fighters he faced...Its really as simple as that, he showed he was a level below the best fighters of that era and ranking him top 10 alltime shows you know fuck all about the sport.
stoppages mean more than decisions.
and lasting 12 rounds against the heavyweight champion of the world in times when there was only one , when you are severely undersized , is a very big p4p achievement. avenging your loss is always important.
and so is a stoppage against langford.
he also drew with langford btw , not all losses except of the stoppage over him.

[WhataRock]

stoppages mean more than decisions.
and lasting 12 rounds against the heavyweight champion of the world in times when there was only one , when you are severely undersized , is a very big p4p achievement. avenging your loss is always important.
and so is a stoppage against langford.
he also drew with langford btw , not all losses except of the stoppage over him.

Well then I guess you rank Medgoen Singsurat over Manny Pac then..just so we got that settled. :roll:

This is the last time Ill reply to you mate...you are really very uneducated on this sport and need to change your whole outlook. You seem to think that just because you believe something it must be right and thats not the way you learn.
I came to this site with an open mind and have learnt an absolute ton from it...I suggest you give it a try.

[mckay_89]

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Sam Langford
4. Harry Greb
5. Muhammad Ali
6. Willie Pep
7. Ezzard Charles
8. Roberto Duran
9. Ray Leonard
10. Benny Leonard

[frankenfrank]

Try this one on for size.

1. Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Sam Langford
5. Bob Fitzsimmons
6. Roberto Duran
7. Ezzard Charles
8. Benny Leonard
9. Muhammad Ali
10. George Dixon
Robinson at #1 ? i really feel sorry for puting him at #10.
he and charles is a close call. maybe i should have put charles at #10 instead of him.
robinson was accustomed being the bigger man in his fights. even at 160. he simply had low body percentage which is good but answers the questions about how come he was such a big ww and mw.
ali ? a 6'3" in an era of 6'1"s. was defeated and went life and death with a midget frazier. went through hell with ken norton :-(. and leon spinks who was stopped by qawi.
fitzsimmons ? a borderline #20 , maybe , with all his stoppage losses.
and greb ? above langford ? for what ? for beating a green tunney ?
and on points ?
yes . you are an idiot. in a severe condition.
armstrong above langford ? for what ?

[Rise Above]

Robinson at #1 ? i really feel sorry for puting him at #10.
he and charles is a close call. maybe i should have put charles at #10 instead of him.
robinson was accustomed being the bigger man in his fights. even at 160. he simply had low body percentage which is good but answers the questions about how come he was such a big ww and mw.
ali ? a 6'3" in an era of 6'1"s. was defeated and went life and death with a midget frazier. went through hell with ken norton :-(. and leon spinks who was stopped by qawi.
fitzsimmons ? a borderline #20 , maybe , with all his stoppage losses.
and greb ? above langford ? for what ? for beating a green tunney ?
and on points ?
yes . you are an idiot. in a severe condition.
armstrong above langford ? for what ?


haha well if Robinson was so accustomed to being the bigger man how come he gave up ten pounds when he beat La Motta first time around. Also did you forget Armstrong held the Featherweight, Lightweight and Welterweight titles at the same time is that not a good enough achievement ?

[dmt]

1.Ray Robinson
2.Henry Armstrong
3.Sam Lanngford
4.Harry Greb
5.Roberto Duran
6.Willie Pep
7.Benny Leonard
8.Ezzard Charles
9.Joe Gans
10.Eder Jofre

[Unforgiven]

Out of all the fighters he ranked above Robinson you chose to mention Duran? How about Dwight Qawi, Mike Tyson, Manny Pacquiao, Young Peter Jackson....

:rofl

I think the you have have the answer right there, GreatA.

Clue : my sense of humour is subtle to the extreme.

:good

[Sweet Pea]

Robinson at #1 ? i really feel sorry for puting him at #10.
he and charles is a close call. maybe i should have put charles at #10 instead of him.
robinson was accustomed being the bigger man in his fights. even at 160. he simply had low body percentage which is good but answers the questions about how come he was such a big ww and mw.
ali ? a 6'3" in an era of 6'1"s. was defeated and went life and death with a midget frazier. went through hell with ken norton :-(. and leon spinks who was stopped by qawi.
fitzsimmons ? a borderline #20 , maybe , with all his stoppage losses.
and greb ? above langford ? for what ? for beating a green tunney ?
and on points ?
yes . you are an idiot. in a severe condition.
armstrong above langford ? for what ?Damn, I got seeeerrrved.:scaredas:

Honestly though mods, why are trolls allowed to run rampant on forums? Isn't that the kind of thing we try to keep out, especially from a well adjusted Forum like this one?

[McGrain]

I kinda like him now he loves Langford.

[IntentionalButt]

I kinda like him now he loves Langford.

:lol:

[Boilermaker]

stoppages mean more than decisions.
and lasting 12 rounds against the heavyweight champion of the world in times when there was only one , when you are severely undersized , is a very big p4p achievement.

So why is knocking such a heavyweight champion out, when you are a middleweight only worth a number 20 ranking?

[Bill Butcher]

1. Armstrong
2. Robinson
3. Charles
4. Greb (could be higher if I'd actually seen him fight)
5. Langford
6. Walker
7. B. Leonard
8. Louis
9. Whitaker
10. R. Leonard

Honorable Mention: Ali, Duran, Ross

A top 10 without Muhammad Ali is bullshit.

Ps. I know franks list was much worse, but to be fair... he`s clearly having a joke.

[Bill Butcher]

1. Bob Fitzsimmons
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Sam Langford
4. Harry Greb
5. Joe Louis
6. Jack McAuliffe
7. Muhammed Ali
8. Benny Leonard
9. Ray Robinson
10. George Dixon

This is unacceptable in anyone`s language, completely mesmerising.

[Sweet Pea]

A top 10 without Muhammad Ali is bullshit.That's your opinion, no more.

[Manassa]

A top 10 without Muhammad Ali is bullshit.

How is it? Prick.

[Robbi]

Fuckin nutters.

[IntentionalButt]

A top 10 without Muhammad Ali is bullshit.

Agreed, any list of the top ten heavies of all time without Ali is bullshit. :deal

[bigphilla1]

1.Ray Robinson
2.Henry Armstrong
3.Harry Greb
4.Joe Louis
5.Sam Langford(havent seen him fight all that much)
6.Roberto Duran
7.Willie Pep
8.Muhammed Ali
9.Ezzard Charles
10.Ray Leonard

[Rise Above]

A top 10 without Muhammad Ali is bullshit.

Ps. I know franks list was much worse, but to be fair... he`s clearly having a joke.

I disagree. I dont even think Ali was the best ever Heavyweight.

[Boilermaker]

This is unacceptable in anyone`s language, completely mesmerising.

Why?

I could justify him going above McAuliffe without too much trouble, as they are very close but for this list i gave 1 division dominance a high rating, but i think he struggles to get any higher than this. He was an awesome welterweight champion, definitely one of the two or three best of all time and probably the best. I am not sure where he ranks as a middleweight but probably is top 10 of all time. I dont think this places him higher than any of the top 3, who each started off at a lighter weight than Ray Robinson and went on to be more succesful at higher weights.


In fairness to Ray, i always fail to give him the benefit of the doubt in a lot of areas because there are so many that overate him and refuse to recognise the claims of other greats.

[Sweet Pea]

I dont think this places him higher than any of the top 3, who each started off at a lighter weight than Ray Robinson and went on to be more succesful at higher weights.
Neither Fitzsimmons nor Langford started off at a lower weight than Robinson, and Armstrong didn't go on to greater success at higher weights.

[Boilermaker]

Fitzsimmons was a New Zealand Lightweight champion. Langford a lightweight also. Did Robinson start off lighter than lightweight? Armstrong was arguably a better middleweight (the higher weights) than Sugar Ray was.

[Manassa]

Armstrong was arguably a better middleweight (the higher weights) than Sugar Ray was.

[Only registered and activated users can see links] ATTENTION [Only registered and activated users can see links]




Bullshit alert ;)

[Rise Above]

[Only registered and activated users can see links] ATTENTION [Only registered and activated users can see links]




Bullshit alert ;)


:lol::lol::lol:

[KOTF]

1. Greb
2. Robinson
3. Armstrong
4. Langford
5. Fitz
6. Charles
7. Duran
8. Pep
9. Benny
10. Ali

[bodhi]

Tier 1:
Sam Langford
Harry Greb
Henry Armstrong
Sugar Ray Robinson

Tier 2:
Bob Fitzsimmons
Ezzard Charles

Tier 3:
Mickey Walker
Willie Pep

Tier 4:
Benny Leonard
Barney Ross
Roberto Duran