It is too obvious for us to deny anymore...

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Pride fighters were all juiced up, and drugged. There have been fighters who fought in Pride, who admitted that the fighters were cranked up on everything, becuase Pride would issue a letter before the fights, letting the fighters know what drugs would "not" be tested for. It is so obvious to see, as anytime those guys fight under UFC, or in america, they don't even look CLOSE to what they did before. With the exception of Rampage, who may have not taken part in all of that mess.

There is simply no other reason why those fighters would come over to the UFC, and look like absolute slop, and seem like such dull, dead fighters throughout their fights. I mean, we are talking about Mirko Cro-Cop, Big Nog, Heath Herring, and Shogun!! Big Nog won, but he was almost knocked out, and fought sloppy as hell. Also, as soon as Gomi fought in America, against Nick Diaz who was released by the UFC, and had lost several times there..... Diaz put it on Gomi. Everyone was saying "Gomi didn't look the same"... NO SHIT! He was fighting where they are testing for drugs.

I will roll with Fedor though... because we could see that he fought in America in Pride Events, and still looked like a dawg. I would be willing to believe that Fedor is legit. Although, I don't think that he would come into the UFC and dominate everyone.

Let's just be honest with ourselves.

[Ethan Trims]

Pride fighters were all juiced up, and drugged. There have been fighters who fought in Pride, who admitted that the fighters were cranked up on everything, becuase Pride would issue a letter before the fights, letting the fighters know what drugs would "not" be tested for. It is so obvious to see, as anytime those guys fight under UFC, or in america, they don't even look CLOSE to what they did before. With the exception of Rampage, who may have not taken part in all of that mess.

There is simply no other reason why those fighters would come over to the UFC, and look like absolute slop, and seem like such dull, dead fighters throughout their fights. I mean, we are talking about Mirko Cro-Cop, Big Nog, Heath Herring, and Shogun!! Big Nog won, but he was almost knocked out, and fought sloppy as hell. Also, as soon as Gomi fought in America, against Nick Diaz who was released by the UFC, and had lost several times there..... Diaz put it on Gomi. Everyone was saying "Gomi didn't look the same"... NO SHIT! He was fighting where they are testing for drugs.

I will roll with Fedor though... because we could see that he fought in America in Pride Events, and still looked like a dawg. I would be willing to believe that Fedor is legit. Although, I don't think that he would come into the UFC and dominate everyone.

Let's just be honest with ourselves.

Yes, lets be honest with ourselves..

Anderson silva was amazing in pride where there were steroids. And now that he is in the ufc he just looks like a sad sack of fertilizer.

Barnett took steroids in the Ufc and he JUST COULDNT CUT IT. But when he went to the pride he looked like ten times the beast he was BEFORE.

Quinton Jackson, yeah thats right brother. He's obviously been clean his entire career. Fuck them haters.



And liddell, he would never touch steroids, even in his stay in pride. He is clean as a racehorse, he would never even touch an aspirin.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Yes, lets be honest with ourselves..

Anderson silva was amazing in pride where there were steroids. And now that he is in the ufc he just looks like a sad sack of fertilizer.

Barnett took steroids in the Ufc and he JUST COULDNT CUT IT. But when he went to the pride he looked like ten times the beast he was BEFORE.

Quinton Jackson, yeah thats right brother. He's obviously been clean his entire career. Fuck them haters.



And liddell, he would never touch steroids, even in his stay in pride. He is clean as a racehorse, he would never even touch an aspirin.
Liddell never had a stay in pride... he fought in a Pride tourny on behalf of the UFC.

Barnett did get busted for Steroids in the UFC... and then went to pride. Get the picture?

Mark Coleman started fading hard in the UFC... then went to pride and had a huge comeback winning the Pride GP.

Wanderlei Silva got beat by Ortiz, and destroyed by Belfort, and then went to Pride, blew up physically, and had a great run.

What does Anderson Silva being in pride have to do with anything? Don't you understand, that the point is the people who he was fighting in Pride would have been all hopped up as well? Same with Jackson.

You don't seem to be getting the point.

[Ethan Trims]

Liddell never had a stay in pride... he fought in a Pride tourny on behalf of the UFC.

He fought three times without testing. I dont know what your definition of stay is, though it is pretty irrelevant

Barnett did get busted for Steroids in the UFC... and then went to pride. Get the picture?

And he didnt do too well in pride. Was champ in the UFC and not in pride where their are steroids everywhere apparently.

Mark Coleman started fading hard in the UFC... then went to pride and had a huge comeback winning the Pride GP
Wanderlei Silva got beat by Ortiz, and destroyed by Belfort, and then went to Pride, blew up physically, and had a great run.

Belfort fought in pride too. Soo every fighter who did well in pride is a steroid addict and every fighter who didnt do as well is drug free. Interestng conspiracy theory

What does Anderson Silva being in pride have to do with anything? Don't you understand, that the point is the people who he was fighting in Pride would have been all hopped up as well? Same with Jackson.

You don't seem to be getting the point.

No i get your point.

Sure there probably is truth too the steroid claims. But your a simplistic idea that pride=steroids, while you ignore all the other factors about the change in rules, rings to cage and yada yada and not to mention some fighters improve as time goes on and while others fighter's drive lessons.

You might as well look for flying saucers in rosswell while your at it.

[AJAX]

Widow has a good point, did you see what CroCop looked like his last fight, he was small and weak looking, he has lost his speed and exposiveness and is now not even a contendor anymore.Shogun was done by the second round and he couldn't keep up with griffin. And as for Silva, his game didn't depend on juice anyhow and Rampage was always a strong man. It's not to say all Pride guys depended on roids but it looks like some of them did. It's safe to say the Hammerhouse is now the slaughter house.

[Beebs]

Drug testing has absolutely been a key role in who is making succesful transitions, how anybody can deny that is beyond me.

[Tko4]

I'm starting to think drugs played into it. Most of the guys look smaller and weaker. They also tend to gas more easily (CC gassed against Kongo and Shogun gassed last night).

[Beebs]

I'm starting to think drugs played into it. Most of the guys look smaller and weaker. They also tend to gas more easily (CC gassed against Kongo and Shogun gassed last night).

Even showed at the pride US shows

Gomi gets tapped by Diaz
Wandy gets KTFO by Hendo

[Tko4]

Even showed at the pride US shows

Gomi gets tapped by Diaz
Wandy gets KTFO by Hendo

Yeah, I think drugs is about 50 percent of the answer to why Pride fighters are doing worse. I think underestimating opponents, not being prepared for the cage, etc., etc. make up the other half. I'm convinced roids has the most to do with it, however.

[scurlaruntings]

He fought three times without testing. I dont know what your definition of stay is, though it is pretty irrelevant



And he didnt do too well in pride. Was champ in the UFC and not in pride where their are steroids everywhere apparently.



Belfort fought in pride too. Soo every fighter who did well in pride is a steroid addict and every fighter who didnt do as well is drug free. Interestng conspiracy theory



No i get your point.

Sure there probably is truth too the steroid claims. But your a simplistic idea that pride=steroids, while you ignore all the other factors about the change in rules, rings to cage and yada yada and not to mention some fighters improve as time goes on and while others fighter's drive lessons.

You might as well look for flying saucers in rosswell while your at it.EXCELLENT SMITHERS EXCELLENT! GO GET EM!:good:deal

[scurlaruntings]

Widow has a good point, did you see what CroCop looked like his last fight, he was small and weak looking, he has lost his speed and exposiveness and is now not even a contendor anymore.Shogun was done by the second round and he couldn't keep up with griffin. And as for Silva, his game didn't depend on juice anyhow and Rampage was always a strong man. It's not to say all Pride guys depended on roids but it looks like some of them did. It's safe to say the Hammerhouse is now the slaughter house.DUDE DUDE DUDE! Steroids dont give you cardio!?!??!?!?!?!?!?! Cro Cop looked weak!? We clearly watched a diffrent fight as his weight was the same as it always has been:patsch

Its interesting to note that because Silva and Rampage are winning then naturally they arent on steroids?! So pray tell what was Sean Sherk doing when he got caught? And why are you blabbering on about Hammerhouse fighters? None of them are in the UFC?!

[AJAX]

It sounds like you are in total denial! The point of the hammerhouse is with drug control you won't see Coleman or Randleman ever again.

[scurlaruntings]

It sounds like you are in total denial! The point of the hammerhouse is with drug control you won't see Coleman or Randleman ever again.Erm but we knew that ages ago? They departed from the UFC around 2002 when the NSAC started taking more control.Its common knowledge that Hammerhouse juice so i dont see how using them as a blanket example of PRIDE legitmizes your example of drug use in PRIDE?!?!? :patsch I sincerely doubt Dana will ever resign old vets like Coleman Randleman Sims or Baroni back in the UFC.

Now the UFC has drug control so how did Sherk slip through? I tell you how because he missed his cycle thats why.Are you that naive enough to think that no UFC fighters are on gear? Gear is rife in MMA and that includes ALL the big organisations not just PRIDE.Im not sure if the NSAC do random testing but im pretty sure they dont because if they did you`d find far more fighters on 1 year bans.

[Koa]

Fighters have looked visually worse as well. Crocop looked a little sucked up, and to my knowledge has admitted to dabbling in performance enhancers. Shogun has been looking like he hasn't even ran a mile in a couple of years and is frequenting burger king.

Dan Henderson looked like a beast against Rampage.. Rampage looks the same, so I'm not sold. Wanderlei Silva always looks the same.. Soo.. Maybe it's true for some fighters, another aspect is that Shogun has been physically looking like he's been drinking hot dogs and eating milkshakes for breakfast lunch and dinner.. Maybe just got complacent and doesn't get up for big fights?

[Beebs]

Erm but we knew that ages ago? They departed from the UFC around 2002 when the NSAC started taking more control.Its common knowledge that Hammerhouse juice so i dont see how using them as a blanket example of PRIDE legitmizes your example of drug use in PRIDE?!?!? :patsch I sincerely doubt Dana will ever resign old vets like Coleman Randleman Sims or Baroni back in the UFC.

Now the UFC has drug control so how did Sherk slip through? I tell you how because he missed his cycle thats why.Are you that naive enough to think that no UFC fighters are on gear? Gear is rife in MMA and that includes ALL the big organisations not just PRIDE.Im not sure if the NSAC do random testing but im pretty sure they dont because if they did you`d find far more fighters on 1 year bans.

Um, he didn't, Sherk is suspended pending an appeal?

Note who the most succesfull transfers from pride have been, A Silva and Rampage, what do they have in common, besides being black, and its fairly easy to believe that they were clean?

They both had extensive experience in cages.
Rampage=KOTC, WFA
Silva=Cage Rage, ROTR

Drugs play a part, cage plays a part.

[codeman99998]

DUDE DUDE DUDE! Steroids dont give you cardio!?!??!?!?!?!?!?! Cro Cop looked weak!? We clearly watched a diffrent fight as his weight was the same as it always has been:patsch

Its interesting to note that because Silva and Rampage are winning then naturally they arent on steroids?! So pray tell what was Sean Sherk doing when he got caught? And why are you blabbering on about Hammerhouse fighters? None of them are in the UFC?!

Cardio in an MMA fight isn't synonymous with cardio on the track. It is about muscle endurance, having the heart and muscle strength to be able to use your strength through aerobic activity instead of anaerobic activity. Steroids can help.

Plus, who says that the Pride fighters were only taking anabolic steroids? Amphetamines and such wouldn't surprise me a bit.

[scurlaruntings]

Um, he didn't, Sherk is suspended pending an appeal?

Note who the most succesfull transfers from pride have been, A Silva and Rampage, what do they have in common, besides being black, and its fairly easy to believe that they were clean?

They both had extensive experience in cages.
Rampage=KOTC, WFA
Silva=Cage Rage, ROTR

Drugs play a part, cage plays a part.Right so tell me where do the steroid accusations fit in? .. Let me see Rampage and Silva are fairly easy to believe they are clean.. based on what? Did the stars aline themselves in heaven when you had this moment of clarity?:rofl

Wether its in a phone booth a card board box or a beer crate on the moon a fight is a fight is a fight.CC lost because of his arrogance and Rua lost because like Gomi he didnt even train for this bout and was gassed after one 5 minute round.Considering he was used to 10min opening rounds in PRIDE do you think the steroids helped make his breathing better and aided his cardio? Nah didnt think so..

[scurlaruntings]

Cardio in an MMA fight isn't synonymous with cardio on the track. It is about muscle endurance, having the heart and muscle strength to be able to use your strength through aerobic activity instead of anaerobic activity. Steroids can help.

Plus, who says that the Pride fighters were only taking anabolic steroids? Amphetamines and such wouldn't surprise me a bit.Dude cardio is cardio.It doesnt matter what sport you in good cardio is the ability of your blood to be able to get oxygen to your muscles efficiently and quickly.Steroids dont do that.Theres no pill in the world that miraculously increase your cardio other than good old fashion hard work.So until you show me some concrete proof that PRIDE fighters are ALL on gear and UFC fighters are not id suggest we call this lousy argument a day.

[Beebs]

Right so tell me where do the steroid accusations fit in? .. Let me see Rampage and Silva are fairly easy to believe they are clean.. based on what? Did the stars aline then selves in heaven when you had this moment of clarity?:rofl

Wether its in a phone booth a card board box or a beer crate on the moon a fight is a fight is a fight.CC lost because of his arrogance and Rua lost because like Gomi he didnt even train for this bout and was gassed after one 5 minute round.Considering he was used to 10min opening rounds in PRIDE do you think the steroids helped make his breathing better and aided his cardio? Nah didnt think so..

Well yes, plenty of performance enhancing drugs do help your cardio, why else would cycling have so many dopers?

I don't know for sure if Silva and Rampage were clean or not, but neither one, especially Silva, ever really looked roided, although thats not a great indicator, so who knows.

For whatever reason those who lost did in fact lose, it really doesn't matter, not preparing yourself physically is no different than not training for skills is no different than having a bad gameplan, all are equal parts of being a good fighter.

[codeman99998]

Dude cardio is cardio.It doesnt matter what sport you in good cardio is the ability of your blood to be able to get oxygen to your muscles efficiently and quickly.Steroids dont do that.Theres no pill in the world that miraculously increase your cardio other than good old fashion hard work.So until you show me some concrete proof that PRIDE fighters are ALL on gear and UFC fighters are not id suggest we call this lousy argument a day.

HAHAHA!

Until I show you concrete proof that pride fighters are ALL juicing and UFC fighters are not it's a lousy argument?

Well then, I'll change my argument. For SOME reason, Kongo can whoop Cro Cop and Forrest can dominate and submit Shogun.

[scurlaruntings]

Well yes, plenty of performance enhancing drugs do help your cardio, why else would cycling have so many dopers?

I don't know for sure if Silva and Rampage were clean or not, but neither one, especially Silva, ever really looked roided, although thats not a great indicator, so who knows.

For whatever reason those who lost did in fact lose, it really doesn't matter, not preparing yourself physically is no different than not training for skills is no different than having a bad gameplan, all are equal parts of being a good fighter.Name me some.Iv got a fat guy in the ABA`s whos cardio is poor il give him some of your miracle juice. Most people that are cycling are cycling hormones and steroid precursors.As for the steroid physique thats BS.Barnett and Bonnar were both on gear.Neither have the body of an adonis.

As for your second point its what iv been saying all along.Only diffrence is most UFC dick lickers have jumped on this steroid mantra.

[scurlaruntings]

HAHAHA!

Until I show you concrete proof that pride fighters are ALL juicing and UFC fighters are not it's a lousy argument?

Well then, I'll change my argument. For SOME reason, Kongo can whoop Cro Cop and Forrest can dominate and submit Shogun.It is a lousy argument as its merely conjecture based on NO CONCRETE PROOF WHATSOEVER. Theres not a shred of credibility to your assertions.

As for Kongo beating CC so what? Kongo lost brutally to Gilbert Yvel.By that same token im assuming Yvel must be a better fighter than CC and Kongo? Naw i didnt think so..

[Beebs]

Name me some.Iv got a fat guy in the ABA`s whos cardio is poor il give him some of your miracle juice. Most people that are cycling are cycling hormones and steroid precursors.As for the steroid physique thats BS.Barnett and Bonnar were both on gear.Neither have the body of an adonis.

As for your second point its what iv been saying all along.Only diffrence is most UFC dick lickers have jumped on this steroid mantra.

1. EPO

2. Cycling as in bikeriding, not steroid cycling. The winner of the last Tour de France was busted for......Testosterone. Why would a sport entirely dependent on cardio be one of the dirtiest sports in the world if doping didn't help with cardio?

[Minotauro]

damian55 is right just because they have had poor performances does not mean everyone in Pride is on the juice and to those saying that is why fighter gassed is ridiculous. Steroids do not help your cardio in fact it can make it worse. And people say the proof is the poor performances or Cro Cop and Shogun among others. Shogun fought twice for Pride in USA and looked great finishing Overeem and Randleman he was tested probably both times.

Sure some guys in Pride must have been using the stuff but there are guys in UFC who do too. Some may have been caught but the fact is that it will always be part of the sport. Doctors have come out and stated that they supplied Holyfield with steroids yet he has never been caught. Remember Anderson Silva and Rampage have been very successful and they came over fought in Pride so because they have had success in the UFC they must have always been clean while Shogun and Cro Cop have been poor so they have obviously been on drugs?

Like Dwain Chambers said drug makers are always a step a head of the tests so don't fool yourself in thinking that if they fight in the US there clean it impossible to know if steroids played a part in the success of the Pride guys so there is no point making assumptions. I still give full credit to Shogun and Cro Cop for winning the GP in 05 & 06. I think it was clear Cro Cop came for the money he was offered the Fedor fight which had he won would have cemented his status instead went to the UFC claiming he would win the title and by new years fight Fedor to unify. This clearly shows he went for the money and was over confident thinking the UFC title was his to take.

Many people have said if you fight for money you won’t win Nigel Benn said it as it shows you haven't got the hunger which is something you need to reach the top. There are a lot of factors why these fighters have underperformed it doesn't mean that it due to them quitting steroids.

[codeman99998]

It is a lousy argument as its merely conjecture based on NO CONCRETE PROOF WHATSOEVER. Theres not a shred of credibility to your assertions.

As for Kongo beating CC so what? Kongo lost brutally to Gilbert Yvel.By that same token im assuming Yvel must be a better fighter than CC and Kongo? Naw i didnt think so..

There are two ways to compare to find which is the "better" fighter.

For instance, in my opinion, Antonio Tarver is a better fighter than Roy Jones. Is his career as stellar? Absolutely not. Can he beat and dominate the same guys that Roy Jones did/can? Absolutely not. But Tarver is better than Jones. It doesn't make him better than the people that Jones is better than.

Vernon Forrest is a better fighter than Shane Mosley, because he BEATS Shane Mosley. Mayorga is a better fighter than Forrest because he BEATS Forrest. This doesn't mean Mayorga is better than Mosley, however.

Either way, when you beat a fighter, you move up, and he moves down. It normally makes sense that you move up HIGHER than him.

There is SOMETHING going on though, you have to admit. I don't want to flame back and forth with you for no reason. Cro Cop looked bad. Shogun looked bad, this was supposed to be a gimme for Shogun. Lot's of people thought Forrest was being fed to the wolves for losing to Jardine.

There's some reason, and it MIGHT not be performance enhancers, but there is SOME reason that these top tier fighters aren't fighting at a top tier level. The best excuse for someone who is a pride fan and refuses to see reality is that the cage and rules are so monumentally different that pride guys automatically lose. There is merit to this, but it's almost certainly not the all of the discussion.

There were few times in their bout that Shogun had the opportunity to try a stomp even if he could.

The fact that stimulants weren't aggressively weeded out lends to the probablity that people took them. Everyone wants to win. In baseball they do it because they don't get in trouble. It only makes sense that they would do it in pride too. Do you think the fighters have so much integrity that they won't do something even when it will clearly give them an edge, or, in a worse case scenario, if it is the only way to compete on a level playing field with all of the other juiced athletes.

It's probable that lot's of those pride guys juiced, that was a given no matter WHAT happened in the fights between Pride and UFC fighters. Some of the premier Pride fighters performances are just more evidence for what is already pretty obvious.

[codeman99998]

1. EPO

2. Cycling as in bikeriding, not steroid cycling. The winner of the last Tour de France was busted for......Testosterone. Why would a sport entirely dependent on cardio be one of the dirtiest sports in the world if doping didn't help with cardio?

Exactly. People hear "juicing" and they immediately think only anabolic steroids that will make you big like a pro wrestler. There are shitloads of illegal stimulants that can help you in more ways than one.

[scurlaruntings]

1. EPO

2. Cycling as in bikeriding, not steroid cycling. The winner of the last Tour de France was busted for......Testosterone. Why would a sport entirely dependent on cardio be one of the dirtiest sports in the world if doping didn't help with cardio?Because hormones increases musculture endurance. Dont get this confused with anaerobic exercise as there not the same. Muscular endurance is essentially a measure of raw strength or the bodies abillity to maintain an activity for a period of time before failure. Hence why the tour de france was a farce. Steroids arent just mass builders overall there performance enhancers. As iv said muscular endurance is a combination of aerobic and anaerobic activity. BUT most bodybuilders are on gear thus by your reasoning there cardio surely must be good because it is a resistance activity.. Negative. Cardio is the bodies ability to carry oxygen in the blood from the heart at a consistent rate.This can only be attained by aerobic exercise. IE any excercise that increases your heart rate substantially.

As for EPO this MUST be combined with aerobic activity.And for the record EPO isnt a steroid.Its a red blood cell precusor and is generally used for increasing the volume of your blood thus by the same token increasing the oxygen in the blood.

[scurlaruntings]

Exactly. People hear "juicing" and they immediately think only anabolic steroids that will make you big like a pro wrestler. There are shitloads of illegal stimulants that can help you in more ways than one.Thats because the term "juice" is synonymous with steroids.. NOT illegal supplments or hormones. No one said Diaz was "juicing" when he beat Gomi! The bout was changed to a DQ because of weed!!!!:patsch

[codeman99998]

Thats because the term "juice" is synonymous with steroids.. NOT illgeal supplments are hormones. No one said Diaz was "jucing" when he beat Gomi! The bout was changed to a DQ because of weed!!!!:patsch

You are ignoring the important part of the argument.

Fine, perhaps they weren't all "Juicing", though, it would make a ton of sense that some of them were. Maybe they were just using other performance enhancing drugs.

Really, it's the same shit with a different name. If Floyd Mayweather were taking a drug that made him faster, but was illegal and wasn't technically a steroid...

[Beebs]

Because hormones increases musculture endurance. Dont get this confused with anaerobic exercise as there not the same. Muscular endurance is essentially a measure of raw strength or the bodies abillity to maintain an activity for a period of time before failure. Hence why the tour de france was a farce. Steroids arent just mass builders overall there performance enhancers. As iv said muscular endurance is a combination of aerobic and anaerobic activity. BUT most bodybuilders are on gear thus by your reasoning there cardio surely must be good because it is a resistance activity.. Negative. Cardio is the bodies ability to carry oxygen in the blood from the heart at a consistent rate.This can only be attained by aerobic exercise. IE any excercise that increases your heart rate substantially.

As for EPO this MUST be combined with aerobic activity.And for the record EPO isnt a steroid.Its a red blood cell precusor and is generally used for increasing the volume of your blood thus by the same token increasing the oxygen in the blood.

1) Right, thats my point

2) What. The. Fuck? Bodybuilders use specific drugs with a specific program for a specific purpose, so do fighters, and they are totally different.

3)I never said it was, I said it was a performance enhancing drug.

[codeman99998]

The word's "steroids" or "juiced" don't matter at all and arguing symantics is stupid and pointless.

It's simple economics. There was no real penalty for taking certain performance enhancing drugs in Pride. There is absolutely no reason that the fighters WOULDN'T do it, so it's hard to believe that a lot of them didn't take the opportunity when it came their way.

[ufoalf]

IMO...

There probably are quite a few steroid users in UFC and in Pride. But i think that difference between cage and ring is monumental. I always said that and always said thats why i dont think Fedor is gona be THAT big of a force in a cage. You have to TRAIN differently you have to change your strategy for the whole fight. And like i said it is SO much different for aggressive fighters because you cant corner people as easily. So first round CC and Rua ended up basicly running after their opponents while others were just back paddling and slipping pointless takedown attempts and kicks.
If anything for fighters like CC and Rua cage is a MAJOR factor in their gassing out. Obviously Gomi, drugs is a major factor in his gassing.

[AJAX]

IMO...

There probably are quite a few steroid users in UFC and in Pride. But i think that difference between cage and ring is monumental. I always said that and always said thats why i dont think Fedor is gona be THAT big of a force in a cage. You have to TRAIN differently you have to change your strategy for the whole fight. And like i said it is SO much different for aggressive fighters because you cant corner people as easily. So first round CC and Rua ended up basicly running after their opponents while others were just back paddling and slipping pointless takedown attempts and kicks.
If anything for fighters like CC and Rua cage is a MAJOR factor in their gassing out. Obviously Gomi, drugs is a major factor in his gassing.

Ludicris!, if your a pro and can't make that transition you shouldn't be there.Sure it's a bit different but if a guy has a training camp and trains in a cage before his fight and looses you can't blame the fukin cage:verysad

[AJAX]

And Scurlauntings do you believe O.J. is innocent? just a question for somebody who is in denial

[Ethan Trims]

Um, he didn't, Sherk is suspended pending an appeal?

Note who the most succesfull transfers from pride have been, A Silva and Rampage, what do they have in common, besides being black, and its fairly easy to believe that they were clean?

They both had extensive experience in cages.
Rampage=KOTC, WFA
Silva=Cage Rage, ROTR

Drugs play a part, cage plays a part.

What is so funny about that sentence is that you have no evidence what so ever to prove that, other than the they didnt do well in pride. Nothing else.

It amounts to, "Did well in pride=steroids", "Didnt do well in pride=clean".

Nice work detective. Be sure you dont spill your milk shake on the crime scene.

[ufoalf]

Ludicris!, if your a pro and can't make that transition you shouldn't be there. Sure it's a bit different but if a guy has a training camp and trains in a cage before his fight and looses you can't blame the fukin cage:verysad

You have to have experience in the cage to know how to train for it. To know what to train. If you never had a fight in a cage before its different. If you're a pro and can't make the transition? Its not exactly easy even for a pro, especially when you consider stylistic changes and matchups. It is NOT a bit different its a BIG difference.

I'll tell you one thing right now, Couture would not have beaten Gonzaga in a ring.

[Donut62]

Name me some.Iv got a fat guy in the ABA`s whos cardio is poor il give him some of your miracle juice. Most people that are cycling are cycling hormones and steroid precursors.As for the steroid physique thats BS.Barnett and Bonnar were both on gear.Neither have the body of an adonis.

As for your second point its what iv been saying all along.Only diffrence is most UFC dick lickers have jumped on this steroid mantra.

I can not believe you didn't name equipose right off the bat. If there was ever a steroid created that was absolutely perfect for fighters to take it would be equipose and other boldenone derivatives. They cause significant gains in red blood cell count and can overnight cause significant increases in physical work capacity. Furthermore, the drug causes very dry gains without water bloating because it does not aromatize and has roughly 1/3 to 1/2 the anabolic properties of testosterone ethers so growing muscle into the next weight class isn't a big danger. It is also estimated to be the number one steroid sold in Brazilian and European black markets. Sam Sheridan, a sports writer, spent a year with BTT and has said that most fighters will take EQ or EPO in order to get more time on the mats without having to go out running and do other conditioning.

Of course, EQ also stays in the body longer than almost any drug which makes it an absolute impossibility for anyone who will be tested. Hmmm....wonder it took so long for some of these guys to get in the ring after being signed?

There is more to this than just drugs, but if you think that drugs aren't playing a huge part in the Pride fighters looking like a bunch of fucking cans than your delusional. A big part of this was over rating by the hard cores because of the exotic look and feel of Pride.

[Tko4]

There is more to this than just drugs, but if you think that drugs aren't playing a huge part in the Pride fighters looking like a bunch of fucking cans than your delusional. A big part of this was over rating by the hard cores because of the exotic look and feel of Pride.
As always, you sum it up pretty well, Donut. I was one of the people who overrated Pride fighters for a long time, and a big part of it was due to the fact Pride was so awesome to watch. I still miss freak show matches :good

And here is my equation:

No drugs + no cage experience + underestimating opponents = Pride fighters not named A. Silva and Rampage doing quite poorly.

[Donut62]

As always, you sum it up pretty well, Donut. I was one of the people who overrated Pride fighters for a long time, and a big part of it was due to the fact Pride was so awesome to watch. I still miss freak show matches :good

And here is my equation:

No drugs + no cage experience + underestimating opponents = Pride fighters not named A. Silva and Rampage doing quite poorly.
And I guess my question is, why are those two in particular doing so good? The only thing I can draw in common between them is that they both left their camps and got with new trainers and coaches before fighting in the UFC. Rampage left Tito's camp and went with Juanito and Anderson got with Blackhouse.

Also, if you want to be a top MMA fighter you pretty much need to be in America on the West Coast. America has really leap frogged the world in training. These guys who were mediocre two years ago are now looking like studs after getting with camps like Extreme Couture, AKA, Greg Jackson's, Team Quest Temecula and Juanito's Big Bear Camps (Rampage and Kongo).

Either way, Fedor's debut in the UFC will the scariest night of my life. Surely, Fedor, the beacon standing there on the foggy shore will lead us to salvation.

[Tko4]

And I guess my question is, why are those two in particular doing so good? The only thing I can draw in common between them is that they both left their camps and got with new trainers and coaches before fighting in the UFC. Rampage left Tito's camp and went with Juanito and Anderson got with Blackhouse.

Also, if you want to be a top MMA fighter you pretty much need to be in America on the West Coast. America has really leap frogged the world in training. These guys who were mediocre two years ago are now looking like studs after getting with camps like Extreme Couture, AKA, Greg Jackson's, Team Quest Temecula and Juanito's Big Bear Camps (Rampage and Kongo).

Either way, Fedor's debut in the UFC will the scariest night of my life. Surely, Fedor, the beacon standing there on the foggy shore will lead us to salvation.
Yeah, I'm trying to figure it out, as well. Neither man was considered stellar in Pride (like Shogun was), yet they both have made the best transition. Both also have the potential to be considered dominant in the UFC (Silva looks untouchable at middleweight, for the time being).

I buy the "they have cage experience" to a degree. I also think you're right about the camps. The west coast clearly has the best MMA camps in the world right now, and they train to the cage. It's also plausible that they didn't underestimate their opponents. Silva was the underdog against Franklin, and Ramapage knew what Liddell could do (having already fought him). That got both of them two huge wins and momemtum going forward.

I guess what it all boils down to is that MMA is an individual sport. It doesn't matter who you work for, it comes down to what you can do in the cage/ring. Silva and Rampage are going out and taking care of business.

[Donut62]

I buy the "they have cage experience" to a degree. I also think you're right about the camps. The west coast clearly has the best MMA camps in the world right now, and they train to the cage. It's also plausible that they didn't underestimate their opponents. Silva was the underdog against Franklin, and Ramapage knew what Liddell could do (having already fought him). That got both of them two huge wins and momemtum going forward.


I think Wanderlei saw this coming, and him leaving Chutebox after he got his UFC contract might have been a forecast of what was to come we all missed. Ninja and Shogun both got finished in a cage one week apart from each other. Wandy probably knew that to suceed in the UFC he would need to leave the stagnancy of training at Chute Box and move to America. I'm afraid that Shogun needs to do the same if he wants to reinvent himself as a cage fighter.

[Beebs]

What is so funny about that sentence is that you have no evidence what so ever to prove that, other than the they didnt do well in pride. Nothing else.

It amounts to, "Did well in pride=steroids", "Didnt do well in pride=clean".

Nice work detective. Be sure you dont spill your milk shake on the crime scene.

Jackson did pretty well in Pride, I didn't say I knew for sure they were clean, just that I could believe if they were, why is that outrageous? It wasn't the main point of the post, the cage part was.

[bachatu]

We all know performance enhancers exists in all sports. One would be in denial to say that it didnt exist in Pride or UFC for that matter. The difference is that it seems to me that because the UFC has fights in certain places such as NEvada, which has stricter drug policies, fighters coming out of other organizations into UFC would have stopped taking enhancers if they were taking them.

Weather or not they enhance performance, those who use them ...those who have openely used them in different sports will all tell you they DO work. Lets not be ignorant or lie to ourselves. Not all steroids and illegal enhancers make you bulk up like a bodybuilder. There are some who simply add to performance ..weather it be to muscle performance and explosiveness. Why else would sprinters and runners, swimmers use them when competing for the Olympic Games? Many baseball players have used them and you wouldnt be able to tell they are using them unless someone told you. Case point, I had a friend who's GF's sister was dating a now retired baseball player who was using them. His HR count at the time went up higher than earlier in his career. When he had told me about it I didnt believe him....but a couple years later came out the scandal regarding roids in the Major Leagues.

Obviously, at this time, no one here has any hardcore proof to say all Pride guys or these guys crossing over to UFC were using Roids. however, history will teach us that when substances are not tested for, atheletes in that sport will more likely use them because they know they can get away with it.... We all know too that in the UFC, more and more MMA fighters have been getting caught juicing and they have to pay the consequences, so that of itself may keep some guys from doing it. But there are always guys out there who will their way around the system--find ways of getting stuff out of their systems before testing, etc... or find stuff that is not detectable

[scurlaruntings]

I can not believe you didn't name equipose right off the bat. If there was ever a steroid created that was absolutely perfect for fighters to take it would be equipose and other boldenone derivatives. They cause significant gains in red blood cell count and can overnight cause significant increases in physical work capacity. Furthermore, the drug causes very dry gains without water bloating because it does not aromatize and has roughly 1/3 to 1/2 the anabolic properties of testosterone ethers so growing muscle into the next weight class isn't a big danger. It is also estimated to be the number one steroid sold in Brazilian and European black markets. Sam Sheridan, a sports writer, spent a year with BTT and has said that most fighters will take EQ or EPO in order to get more time on the mats without having to go out running and do other conditioning.

Of course, EQ also stays in the body longer than almost any drug which makes it an absolute impossibility for anyone who will be tested. Hmmm....wonder it took so long for some of these guys to get in the ring after being signed?

There is more to this than just drugs, but if you think that drugs aren't playing a huge part in the Pride fighters looking like a bunch of fucking cans than your delusional. A big part of this was over rating by the hard cores because of the exotic look and feel of Pride.What you state is true.But you`ll find most users espcially bodybuilders use it mostly for good quality gains over a long period of time with the right amount of calories/protein intake.Most of the gains on Equipose are primarily for hardness in the muscle plus the water retention is alot less than other drugs like deca which aromatize very quickly.This being said theres is NO SUBSTITUTE for good cardio. Equipose or any other animal derivative WILL NOT give you overnight gains.Yes it will increase you vascularity due to increasing oxygen in your blood and your blood volume but you will not find the instant gains of which you speak of. People on this forum MUST understand that steroids/hormones/derivatives and precursors are NOT wonder drugs.If you combine them with good old fashioned hard work you get astounding results but wayyyy to many people are misinformed.

Just to give you an example we had one guy in our gym that was stacking deca and tamoxifen. He assumed by default that all he needed to do was simply take the gear and that was it.He turned up once in blue moon to train and occasionally to pick up his drugs. This is the typical attitude of most people who dont have the faintest idea on diet/supplementation/workout routines and most of all Steroids.

[Beebs]

This being said theres is NO SUBSTITUTE for good cardio. Equipose or any other animal derivative WILL NOT give you overnight gains.Yes it will increase you vascularity due to increasing oxygen in your blood and your blood volume but you will not find the instant gains of which you speak of. People on this forum MUST understand that steroids/hormones/derivatives and precursors are NOT wonder drugs.If you combine them with good old fashioned hard work you get astounding results but wayyyy to many people are misinformed.

Nobody is saying they are wonder drugs, or that people are taking them and not working hard.

But all other things being equal
Doped version of the same fighter > Clean version of the same fighter, always, everytime, no exceptions.

[codeman99998]

Nobody is saying they are wonder drugs, or that people are taking them and not working hard.

But all other things being equal
Doped version of the same fighter > Clean version of the same fighter, always, everytime, no exceptions.
Exactly. There is no doubt that the best pride fighters who may have been taking performance enhancers were ALSO training and working extremely hard, hell, they had to be because if they weren't the guy they were fighting WAS and would beat them.

That's no excuse for those that take performance enhancing drugs though.

[cross_trainer]

Very Simply...

Pride did not test for steroids. Since steroids give a huge advantage, it's logical to assume that top fighters were taking them. They would be stupid not to.

Since the UFC's testing is more rigorous, it makes sense that part of the dropoff is due to steroid prohibition.

[ufoalf]

Makes me wonder... Fedor being as chubby as he is... equipose anyone? Sigh, I pray that he comes to UFC and shows that he is a true champion and not drugged up. I really do believe that if Fedor cleans UFC and retires it will be good for all of MMA. They'll have someone to look up to, some goal to reach and maybe one day beat. Right now its just so messy and inconsistent. Fedor is the most consistent thing today, I just hope he stays it.

[scurlaruntings]

Makes me wonder... Fedor being as chubby as he is... equipose anyone? Sigh, I pray that he comes to UFC and shows that he is a true champion and not drugged up. I really do believe that if Fedor cleans UFC and retires it will be good for all of MMA. They'll have someone to look up to, some goal to reach and maybe one day beat. Right now its just so messy and inconsistent. Fedor is the most consistent thing today, I just hope he stays it.Equipose wouldnt make you soft. Its used for muscle hardness so i highly doubt Fedor would be on this. He doesnt have the physique, the hardness, nor the vascularity that equipose promotes.Plus his a relatively small heavy like CC at 220 and his weight generally doesnt fluctuate.

[amhlilhaus]

fedor must be CLEAN and win impressively, for the sake of the universe!

[Donut62]

Equipose wouldnt make you soft. Its used for muscle hardness so i highly doubt Fedor would be on this. He doesnt have the physique, the hardness, nor the vascularity that equipose promotes.Plus his a relatively small heavy like CC at 220 and his weight generally doesnt fluctuate.

Agreed, I would honestly be shocked if Fedor was on anything. From my experience a tell tale sign of steroid use is a lot of vascularity, particularly around the shoulders you can see a lot veins protruding through the skin. With heavyweights this isn't always true, as Barnett and Syliva showed.

[scurlaruntings]

Agreed, I would honestly be shocked if Fedor was on anything. From my experience a tell tale sign of steroid use is a lot of vascularity, particularly around the shoulders you can see a lot veins protruding through the skin. With heavyweights this isn't always true, as Barnett and Syliva showed.To be honest that really depends on what there taking. Some guys arent vascular at all by nature.But if you`ve had a good pump in the gym then you get the veiny effect that most guys get. Although you can roughly gauge from musculature if someone is on gear, this isnt always strictly true as guys like Barnett Sylvia are not body beautiful but could have been using them for recovery.

[chimba]

Fedor is definitely not on drugs..Hes basically chubby. no definition whatsoever...He has great leverage thats his gimmick

Im around folk who are on the cycle and fat but they get a little bulky and thick even not defined per say ..Fedor just dont look it

[scurlaruntings]

Fedor is definitely not on drugs..Hes basically chubby. no definition whatsoever...He has great leverage thats his gimmick

Im around folk who are on the cycle and fat but they get a little bulky and thick even not defined per say ..Fedor just dont look itThis may be true. But there is no way to look at someone and assume there not on gear. James Toney was on nandrolone and he looked like a sack of shite.

[chimba]

This may be true. But there is no way to look at someone and assume there not on gear. James Toney was on nandrolone and he looked like a sack of shite.

Yeah but Fedor was this size since birth.. look at his old sambo videos..hes the same...hes just a husky guy... Toney was alot skinnier even 5 years ago.. Its not an overnight change

[scurlaruntings]

Yeah but Fedor was this size since birth.. look at his old sambo videos..hes the same...hes just a husky guy... Toney was alot skinnier even 5 years ago.. Its not an overnight changeVery true. But then again Toney was 200lbs in college. How on earth he got his body down to 160 il never ever know.Its no wonder his body is fighting back now and he cant control his weight.

[chimba]

Very true. But then again Toney was 200lbs in college. How on earth he got his body down to 160 il never ever know.Its no wonder his body is fighting back now and he cant control his weight.

But weight cutting has been the American way. I mean look at pride fighter compared to UFCs..They are just way smaller...Forrest was a giant against Shogun. Tito is huge at 205. All these guys in Pride were small. Wandy is small. Saku is small and they fight heavyweights. In the UFC GSP can be 185 easy. Matt Hughes is huge, Id say Sakus size just shorter but you dont have him fighting Wand right. I mean you have Saku at 185 and a bit soft.

[ufoalf]

Does this mean Fedor was rolling through steroided up freaks?

[eze]

DUDE DUDE DUDE! Steroids dont give you cardio!?!??!?!?!?!?!?! Cro Cop looked weak!? We clearly watched a diffrent fight as his weight was the same as it always has been:patsch

Its interesting to note that because Silva and Rampage are winning then naturally they arent on steroids?! So pray tell what was Sean Sherk doing when he got caught? And why are you blabbering on about Hammerhouse fighters? None of them are in the UFC?!



Are you saying Steroids dont give you cardio cause if you said that.. you dont know what your talking about.

[chimba]

Are you saying Steroids dont give you cardio cause if you said that.. you dont know what your talking about.

Agree:good actually this is one of its benefits..Just look at Sherks training

[AJAX]

Scur is having a tough time, first his love and joy ...pride get's bought out and then obolished and 2 of the top pride guys get beat by guys who considered inferior. And apperently denies that there was steroids going on freely over at pride. He is in a state of denial.

[scurlaruntings]

Scur is having a tough time, first his love and joy ...pride get's bought out and then obolished and 2 of the top pride guys get beat by guys who considered inferior. And apperently denies that there was steroids going on freely over at pride. He is in a state of denial.Oh shut up you bloody idiot. Show me in which post that i said some fighters were not on drugs? News flash idiot there are tons of athletes in MMA that are on gear.But its WHOLLY unfair to point fingers without concrete proof. Thats called litegous and libelous. You have no proof whatsover other than following the mantra of other posters on this board.

[scurlaruntings]

Are you saying Steroids dont give you cardio cause if you said that.. you dont know what your talking about.How about you explain yourself then seeing as i dont know what im talking about.:patsch

[AJAX]

I don't have proof that Barry Bonds is on gear either so I shouldn't accuse unless I have proof in my hands.....sorry my bad

[codeman99998]

The truth of the matter is, the possibility that Pride fighters were on steroids is GOOD for Pride fanboys.

Why?

Because it gives Shogun and Mirko legitimate reasons for losing. At least now they lost because of lack of roids, and not because they were inferior fighters. If it WAS roids, I'm sure a bit of work ethic and they can get back into tip top shape without steroids, and they can come back and be successful.

[scurlaruntings]

I don't have proof that Barry Bonds is on gear either so I shouldn't accuse unless I have proof in my hands.....sorry my badYou sir are an idiot. Bonds went from a skinny hitter to at least 4 stone heavier. I cant say for sure his on gear but the accusations have some proof to them. So pray tell sherlock which PRIDE fighters are on gear? Wheres the evidence..

[enquirer]

In my experience some steroids can improve your cardio.....
Back in the day i took small amounts and even though i was about 56 pounds heavier than my current weight,my aerobic fitness was very good,and all i did outside of bodybuilding training was some walking,no specific planned cardio training...Go figure...???
Imagine steroids plus a structured cardio regime?!
Ps; i would imagine most of the top guys in all versions of mma to be on some kind of steroids,growth,amphet or all of the above....As the world of sports is tainted with drugs only a select few can compete at the top without drugs...Even royce gracie has been suspended for failing both samples of a drugs test recently.....

[Duende]

Even if steroids wouldnt help your cardio, they make you stronger therefore enabling you to put less effort into punching, kicking etc. That way you waste less energy and you will be able to keep up a higher pace.

[eze]

How about you explain yourself then seeing as i dont know what im talking about.:patsch


There are many many steroids out there. Ones that give muscle growth to be bigger, ones that simply make you stronger (pure strength) others give you GREAT cardio, and others combine them.


There are cardio steroids. Which is why a lot of pride fighters have gassed in UFC.

[ufoalf]

There are many many steroids out there. Ones that give muscle growth to be bigger, ones that simply make you stronger (pure strength) others give you GREAT cardio, and others combine them.


There are cardio steroids. Which is why a lot of pride fighters have gassed in UFC.

I don't think they're called steroids per se. Performance enhancers maybe?

[eze]

I don't think they're called steroids per se. Performance enhancers maybe?

No, they are steroids. A few Olympic runners have used them and been caught.

And Im pretty sure they weren't trying to bulk or build massive muscle.