Best/greatest German based fighter below heavy of all times

[Flurry]

lets exclude the heavyweights, so Schmeling and the KLitschkos dont come into play here

But we had Rocchigiani, Maske, Ottke, Michaltschewski, Sturm and Abrams. It should be one of these really. Or maybe you can think of another one?

Its about longevitiy, titles, resume obviously
and to a considerably lesser extent skill, appeal, were they a thrill to watch (ottke!!)

[bongsbomber]

Based = not German ?

[Flurry]

Mods

please move that to the euro forum, it was meant for the euro forum

thank you

[Jack Dempsey]

Theres a Euro forum?

[Beeston Brawler]

I'd go with Michalcszewski.

Based on longevity - I don't recognise the WBO.

Nice jab, can punch with both hands, and fought most of the best fighters in the division.

Maske was very talented and such, but longevity isn't there, IMO. Beat some good people, had a great jab.

Abraham could eclipse both though...... Ottke was terrible, a European level fighter really, Sturm has had his fair share of gifts and has never sought out the elite in the division.

[bodhi]

Based = not German ?

Well, all those guys on the list have (or had when they were fighting) the German citizenship, so it doesn really matter.

DM for me from those listed. Lineal champ at lhw, unified three belts, long reign, cleared out the division aside of Maske and Jones who didn want to fight him, a belt at cw, unbeaten until he was over the hill.

Really the best was Gustav "Bubi" Scholz. Record of 88 wins, 6 draws and only 2 losses, one coming at the hands of then time Euro MW champ Charles Humez in a non-title fight in Paris which he had to lose to get a title fight. He avenged it in the title fight by TKOing Humez. The other loss was at the hand of atg Harold Johnson in his bid for the world lhw crwon when he was above his best weight and a few years past his best - and according to the media at the time, he only lost because he didn do enough, probably due to age. He fought from lw to lhw, was German champ at ww and mw and Euro champ at mw and lhw. Never got a shot at the world title until it was too late.

[hit me HARDER]

Bob Carolgees

[bodhi]

IOttke was terrible, a European level fighter really, Sturm has had his fair share of gifts and has never sought out the elite in the division.

I disagree with this part. Close fights are no gifts or robberies :bart

Ottke was much better than you give him credit for. Aside from Calzaghe and stablemate Beyer he basically cleared out the division (See second sentence), unified two belts, 20 or 21 defences of his title. Yeah, he lost the Reid fight and yeah he got the benefit of the doubt in every close fight. Thatś why he isn't above DM.

Sturm can be knocked for not fighting Taylor, Abraham or Pavlik and for fighting mediocre opponents at times but he still won his title when nobody thought he was ready, beat DLH, future IBF champ Sylvester and avenged his loss to Castillejo. He came out on the winning sight of close decisions, like Ottke, and he isn anything special. But there were about as much worse beltholders than him as there were better. Average describes him pretty well imo.

[Longhhorn71]

Bob Carolgees

The piston driven Focke-Wulf Ta-152 or Me-262 jet fighter.

The Ta-152 could go to 48,500 feet service ceiling.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Bart]

Michalsze
Michalzsci
Michalcsze

... Fuck it

Abraham.

[Vysotsky]

[quote=bongsbomber;5366722]Based = not German quote]

Fixed. QFT

Michalczewski. Great Polish fighter.

[MonsterX]

Michalsze
Michalzsci
Michalcsze

... Fuck it

Abraham.
:yep

[Flurry]

Based = not German ?

Both german and german based of non german origin, lets sum them up as fighters who have fought/are still fighting out of germany

[Flurry]

Michalsze
Michalzsci
Michalcsze

... Fuck it

Abraham.

:lol:

[Flurry]

DM for me from those listed. Lineal champ at lhw, unified three belts, long reign, cleared out the division aside of Maske and Jones who didn want to fight him, a belt at cw, unbeaten until he was over the hill.

Really the best was Gustav "Bubi" Scholz. Record of 88 wins, 6 draws and only 2 losses, one coming at the hands of then time Euro MW champ Charles Humez in a non-title fight in Paris which he had to lose to get a title fight. He avenged it in the title fight by TKOing Humez. The other loss was at the hand of atg Harold Johnson in his bid for the world lhw crwon when he was above his best weight and a few years past his best - and according to the media at the time, he only lost because he didn do enough, probably due to age. He fought from lw to lhw, was German champ at ww and mw and Euro champ at mw and lhw. Never got a shot at the world title until it was too late.


Im no expert on the germanys outstanding fighters of the 50s or 60s, to be honest, I indeed was considering Schulz but then thought anyone wishing to vote for him or somebody else not in the list would simply use the "other fighter" option and declare his devotion for the fighter in question here in this thread, the way you have done.

Good analysis on DM, Im a bit biased here as he was my fav. fighter when he was still active. He stopped Hill´s long run as lightheavy king in convincing fashion to become the linear 175 titlist, he also held wins over Rocco (second fight only :yep), Griffin and good euro level fighters such as Girard, Piper, and us contenders such as Harmon and Hill in addition to thadzi who had to be given the credit of having beaten Toney.

I know you dont like how fighters looked well i do and what tarnishes Dms record in my eyes is the first Rocco fight undoubtedly, but hes still my choice for the sake of this poll.

[Flurry]

I disagree with this part. Close fights are no gifts or robberies :bart

Ottke was much better than you give him credit for. Aside from Calzaghe and stablemate Beyer he basically cleared out the division (See second sentence), unified two belts, 20 or 21 defences of his title. Yeah, he lost the Reid fight and yeah he got the benefit of the doubt in every close fight. Thatś why he isn't above DM.

Sturm can be knocked for not fighting Taylor, Abraham or Pavlik and for fighting mediocre opponents at times but he still won his title when nobody thought he was ready, beat DLH, future IBF champ Sylvester and avenged his loss to Castillejo. He came out on the winning sight of close decisions, like Ottke, and he isn anything special. But there were about as much worse beltholders than him as there were better. Average describes him pretty well imo.

Very good post and i have nothing to add :good

[Flurry]

[quote=bongsbomber;5366722]Based = not German quote]

Fixed. QFT

Michalczewski. Great Polish fighter.

He held a german passport, he entered the ring under the german flag and had the german anthem played before his title bouts, except for his very last matches, starting with that guy he koed in danzig, forgot his name.

But thats why I said german based anyway, it matters not, he turned out to find he was more polish than anything else towards the end of his career sure but he was a german based fighter

[bodhi]

Im no expert on the germanys outstanding fighters of the 50s or 60s, to be honest, I indeed was considering Schulz but then thought anyone wishing to vote for him or somebody else not in the list would simply use the "other fighter" option and declare his devotion for the fighter in question here in this thread, the way you have done.

I forgot to mention said Scholz couldn't fight for three years because of tubercolosis during his prime. With the exception of not getting a shot at a world title it was a good time for boxing in Germany. Scholz was nearly as big as Schmeling and bigger than Maske at his day. He was the symbol of the economic miracle. Sad what happened to him after his career, becoming an alcoholic, accidently shooting his wife and going to prison because of that and a few month after he was cured from alcoholism he died of cancer in thelate 90s/early 00s, can't remember.

He beat Peter Müller 5 or 6 times (and dominated him every time). The same Peter Müller who went 1-1 against Joey Giardello and fought on even terms with Gene Fullmer.

Eckhard Dagge also has a shout on here. World champion at 154 pounds in the 70s. Wins over Griffith, Obed and Moyer, a draw with Maurice Hope and a close loss to Antuefermo and a KO loss to Mattioli are his most known fights. He was knwon for his antiques outside the ring, beeing an alcoholic he often vanished during training for a fight just to come back totally drunk a few days taler taking some pills and then train harder then anybody else. He also was a masochist, often let himself be hit in the first few rounds to "get warm". From him is the sentence "there were many champs who became alcoholics, I am the first alcoholic who became wold champ." or "Schmeling won his championship laying on the ground, at least I won it standing upright." He later was the trainer of Michaelchewski but DM's manager fired him when DM started not only learning boxing but also drinking and partying from him. He died a few years ago.



Good analysis on DM, Im a bit biased here as he was my fav. fighter when he was still active. He stopped Hill´s long run as lightheavy king in convincing fashion to become the linear 175 titlist, he also held wins over Rocco (second fight only :yep), Griffin and good euro level fighters such as Girard, Piper, and us contenders such as Harmon and Hill in addition to thadzi who had to be given the credit of having beaten Toney.

I know you dont like how fighters looked well i do and what tarnishes Dms record in my eyes is the first Rocco fight undoubtedly, but hes still my choice for the sake of this poll.

The first GR fight was a cheat win for DM I agree. Rocchigiani happens also to be my favourite of the time back then. I have something going on with fighters who just never went up on the winning side.
DM's resume at lhw is about as good as that of RJJ but he is ignored most of the time. Damned bias! :twisted:

[bodhi]

Very good post and i have nothing to add :good

Thanks, I have my bright moments here and there.

[Flurry]

I'd go with Michalcszewski.

Based on longevity - I don't recognise the WBO.

Nice jab, can punch with both hands, and fought most of the best fighters in the division.

Maske was very talented and such, but longevity isn't there, IMO. Beat some good people, had a great jab.

Abraham could eclipse both though...... Ottke was terrible, a European level fighter really, Sturm has had his fair share of gifts and has never sought out the elite in the division.


Good post :good

(except maybe for the ottke bit but i wont start argueing now, I do know ottkes not very popular over in england, because of his style, because of a number of close decisions that went in his favour and not to the least because of the way Reid got cheated)

I agree Abrahams is possibly on his way to becoming the undisputedly best german based fighter (below heavyweight) of all times, depending on the outcome of the ongoing tourney. In case he ends up winning it beating Kessler along the way most would agree he d done the job i believe.

[Flurry]

Thanks, I have my bright moments here and there.


Don't understate matters, you re a goodie :good

[Flurry]

From him is the sentence "there were many champs who became alcoholics, I am the first alcoholic who became wold champ." or "Schmeling won his championship laying on the ground, at least I won it standing upright." He later was the trainer of Michaelchewski but DM's manager fired him when DM started not only learning boxing but also drinking and partying from him. He died a few years ago.



I know, and some marvelous statements made there by Dagge. As a coach I dont rate him much, he was the first pro coach DM had and I dont see where he developed him to a visible extent. DM remained the face first brawler who couldnt fight off his back foot and who lacked leverage when advancing, in those initial stages of his career he didnt have the killer jab and murderous short left hook that were the trademark assets of his prime. Sdunek helped him improve a lot

[bodhi]

I know, and some marvelous statements made there by Dagge. As a coach I dont rate him much, he was the first pro coach DM had and I dont see where he developed him to a visible extent. DM remained the face first brawler who couldnt fight off his back foot and who lacked leverage when advancing, in those initial stages of his career he didnt have the killer jab and murderous short left hook that were the trademark assets of his prime. Sdunek helped him improve a lot

That's true. They still stayed friends up to Dagge's death. There were very few people at his funeral DM was one of them. Dagge never was liked by the German boxing society.
I like guys like him, Graziano Rocchigiani and Lew Jenkins (lw champ in the 30s/40s, also an alcoholic but a great person it seems). Perhaps because I am so unlike them :lol:

[Rick G]

Current: DM - natural aggressive brawler, each fight was full of blood and drama
Future: AA - still improving, will shine at SMW

[Flurry]

Quite beyond the question of who was the greatest I believe most would agree Michalczewski was the most thrilling fighter to watch, have seen all of his pro bouts and in all honesty do not remember a single fight I found a bore to watch.

Have a look at this video which constitutes a compilation of some of his best knockouts, and tell me who else has provided us with so many one-punch-clean-out-knockouts

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Flurry]

On the footage posted above theres some nice Kos missing like the dominguez KO where DM was put on his bum himself first before sending the bloke to the canvas

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


and de grandis though with this one its really only the ko in itself the man was not a serious title contender and shouldnt have gotten the shot


[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Further: Harmon and Nicky Piper Kos but couldnt find footage for these

[FROST]

DM and Maske are probably the greatest out of your list. But not the best.

Prime for prime, Gracciano Roccighiani is for me just as good, if not better, than both DM and Maske. It's a shame his prime was so damn short and that he couldn't get his act together outside the ring. After jail Rocky wasn't the same anymore. Yeah, I know he has losses to both Maske and DM, but in my eyes he should've got the decision in the first Maske fight, and it was clear that he got jobbed in the first fight with DM.

[Flurry]

what he lacked was longevity though

also he has but Nunn as the best name on his resume, i completely agree he got screwed in the first DM fight - no objection.
As to the first maske fight i scored that one by a round to maske, rocco started too slowly into the match was trailing until finishing on a very strong note but not enough to catch up on the score cards, at least for me, a problem he has had throughout his career see the eubank fight. He simply didnt throw enough leather, he looked passive for some major parts early on in these matches

[cubex]

I also thought Rocchigiani beat Maske the first time altough it was a close fight.

[bodhi]

DM and Maske are probably the greatest out of your list. But not the best.

Prime for prime, Gracciano Roccighiani is for me just as good, if not better, than both DM and Maske. It's a shame his prime was so damn short and that he couldn't get his act together outside the ring. After jail Rocky wasn't the same anymore. Yeah, I know he has losses to both Maske and DM, but in my eyes he should've got the decision in the first Maske fight, and it was clear that he got jobbed in the first fight with DM.

Yeah, Rcoky, DM and Maske were on even terms during their prime. But Maske took no risk and Rocky´s prime was just too short and fucked up by his outside the ring behaviour (still my favourite of the three ^^). I thought Rocky won against Maske the first time around and he was also winning against DM until he got jobbed.

Sadly Jones ducked Rocky. He probably would have lost but he would have made the waters deeper than any other opponent of Jones at lhw until Tarver, I think.

[Flurry]

Sadly Jones ducked Rocky. He probably would have lost but he would have made the waters deeper than any other opponent of Jones at lhw until Tarver, I think.


Indeed, he did, the whole farce with the wbc degrading rocky from proper champ to interims champ while Jones (who had publicly expressed his wish to move up to cruiser) was "champ in recess" was a disgrace. They righfully lost a court case over the issue and had to pay Rocco a considerable sum

[bodhi]

Indeed, he did, the whole farce with the wbc degrading rocky from proper champ to interims champ while Jones (who had publicly expressed his wish to move up to cruiser) was "champ in recess" was a disgrace. They righfully lost a court case over the issue and had to pay Rocco a considerable sum

WBC nearly went broke due to that, wouldn´t have been a bad thing.

[IntentionalButt]

Abrams? :huh

[p.Townend]

Its between Maske and Michalzewski.Ottke was pretty awful.Abraham looks good so far and could go on to be the best,but id go with Dariuz for now.

[Flurry]

Seems we have a winner :happy

On a sidenote: ottke gets vastly underrated here in this forum, i never liked his style much to be honest, but he beat half a dozen top tenners of his time, took titles from defending champs, beat former champs, unified belts and had like 20 title defences. Admittedly he shouldnt have gotten the reid win, larsen was close, could have gone either way, same with the first brewer fight, the rest of his fights he won fair and square, but he was a real pain to watch

[bodhi]

Seems we have a winner :happy

On a sidenote: ottke gets vastly underrated here in this forum, i never liked his style much to be honest, but he beat half a dozen top tenners of his time, took titles from defending champs, beat former champs, unified belts and had like 20 title defences. Admittedly he shouldnt have gotten the reid win, larsen was close, could have gone either way, same with the first brewer fight, the rest of his fights he won fair and square, but he was a real pain to watch

:good

[Serenata]

Seems we have a winner :happy

On a sidenote: ottke gets vastly underrated here in this forum, i never liked his style much to be honest, but he beat half a dozen top tenners of his time, took titles from defending champs, beat former champs, unified belts and had like 20 title defences. Admittedly he shouldnt have gotten the reid win, larsen was close, could have gone either way, same with the first brewer fight, the rest of his fights he won fair and square, but he was a real pain to watch

:good

[Will]

Seems we have a winner :happy

On a sidenote: ottke gets vastly underrated here in this forum, i never liked his style much to be honest, but he beat half a dozen top tenners of his time, took titles from defending champs, beat former champs, unified belts and had like 20 title defences. Admittedly he shouldnt have gotten the reid win, larsen was close, could have gone either way, same with the first brewer fight, the rest of his fights he won fair and square, but he was a real pain to watch

Ottke wasn't as bad as some make out but this is the part that most of us have the problem with. This statement is what the texts of history will say but is it what actually happened. It's like saying he's undefeated or saying Valuev holds a victory over Holyfield. On paper yes, in reality no!

[bodhi]

Ottke wasn't as bad as some make out but this is the part that most of us have the problem with. This statement is what the texts of history will say but is it what actually happened. It's like saying he's undefeated or saying Valuev holds a victory over Holyfield. On paper yes, in reality no!

Fact is, he unified, fact is he defended his belts just one short of Calzaghe. Fact is he beat many Top10 fighters and beat former, current and future champs.

He has wins over:
Tate (2 times)
Johnson
Brewer (second fight)
Branco
Mundine
Markussen
Starie

He has disputed wins, which could have gone either way, over:
Brewer (1. fight)
Mitchell
Larsen


He should have lost to:
Reid

That´s actually a very good resume, about as good as Calzaghe´s at smw with the exception of Kessler.

[Flurry]

Mitchell wasnt even disputed, I do know it was a SD, but what a hoax, the puerto rican judge who had it for Mitchell must have been on mitchell's promoters (king) payroll, this was a decisive win for ottke. I believ I had him 4 to 5 rounds up at the end. Typical thing though that made Ottke look bad with hindsight was that before the last round he knew he was up on the cards and simply got on his bike. Mitchell was hasting after him the whole round and for the very first time in the whole fight started catching him cleanly, ottke didnt go down but looked impressed. So Mitchell finished on a strong note while ottke cos he threw the last round left a bitter taste, no matter, by simply adding the rounds awarded to each fighter this was by no means a close fight, no way.

[Flurry]

Ottke wasn't as bad as some make out but this is the part that most of us have the problem with. This statement is what the texts of history will say but is it what actually happened. It's like saying he's undefeated or saying Valuev holds a victory over Holyfield. On paper yes, in reality no!

Why so, I disagree, the statement is true not only officially but its filled with life, see the resume of Ottke.

I believe lots of you brits dislike him
a) because it was reid that got screwed in that one and only clear robbery of ottkes career (which incidentally happened right at the end of his career when he was quite clearly sliding)

and
b) because he was the man overshadowing calzaghe before the welsh started accumulating belts and unifying titles and gaining proper recognition. At the time of Ottkes prime (maybe 2000 to 2003) he was the best 168 fighter and Joe only second best and thats something gnawing at some Brit fans as if joes robbed of something/something taken away from Joe and so they have a problem to cope with it.

Joe by far the more enticing fighter to watch, on a different note :good

[Serenata]

I agree to all of that :)

[Odo]

Henry Maskev

Why? Because he revitalized Germany's pro circus.
Without him there would be no sold out arenas and excellent fight shows on German soil nor would have moved that many outstanding fighters from other parts of the world to Germany.
Admittingly,he was no fun to watch and no pleasure for our eyes,but due to him countless pro fighters can earn decent bucks on German shores.
In terms of achievements I tend to pick AA.He has the potential to go very very far and drink the water of many many golden fountains.