Top10 p4p until 1950

[Luigi1985]

What´s your list?

[Duodenum]

1) Robinson
2) Pep
3) Gans
4) Leonard
5) Greb
6) Canzoneri
7) Ross
8) Langford
9) Armstrong
10) Walker

Now Luigi, I have to caution you that I made up this list on impulse, as soon as I spotted your thread. On reflection, I could very well revise this extensively. (Alas, I haven't the class of a John Garfield, who seems oblivious to such temptations to rate. Maybe when I grow up a bit.)

[Luigi1985]

1) Robinson
2) Pep
3) Gans
4) Leonard
5) Greb
6) Canzoneri
7) Ross
8) Langford
9) Armstrong
10) Walker

Now Luigi, I have to caution you that I made up this list on impulse, as soon as I spotted your thread. On reflection, I could very well revise this extensively. (Alas, I haven't the class of a John Garfield, who seems oblivious to such temptations to rate. Maybe when I grow up a bit.)

Hey Duodenum, don´t worry, it´s an excellent list. It´s just humanly to forget sometimes something... :yep the only 2 names I perhaps miss, are Barbados Joe Walcott and Jimmy Wilde...

[TBooze]

A with hindsight list:

10 Georges Carpentier
9 Harry Grebb
8 Ray Robinson
7 Benny Leonard
6 Mickey Walker
5 Sammy Langford
4 Charley Burley
3 Jimmy Wilde
2 Willie Pep
1 Henry Armstrong


Honourable Mentions:


Bob Fitzsimmons, Terry McGovern, George Dixon, Joe Gans, Stanley Ketchel, Pancho Villa, Gene Tunney, Barney Ross, Joe Louis and Ezzard Charles

[ron u.k.]

Hey Duodenum, don´t worry, it´s an excellent list. It´s just humanly to forget sometimes something... :yep the only 2 names I perhaps miss, are Barbados Joe Walcott and Jimmy Wilde...so you would have wilde in there luigi?i thought you weren't too keen?

[Dempsey1238]

A with hindsight list:

10 Georges Carpentier
9 Harry Grebb
8 Ray Robinson
7 Benny Leonard
6 Mickey Walker
5 Sammy Langford
4 Charley Burley
3 Jimmy Wilde
2 Willie Pep
1 Henry Armstrong


Honourable Mentions:


Bob Fitzsimmons, Terry McGovern, George Dixon, Joe Gans, Stanley Ketchel, Pancho Villa, Gene Tunney, Barney Ross, Joe Louis and Ezzard Charles

How you have Carp over Gans, Canzi Ross, Tunney, Louis and Charles is beyond me.

Well

1 Ross
2 Canzi
3 Armstrong
4 Fitz
5 Leonard
6 Gans
7 Pep
8 Greb
9 Walker
and ten Wilde.

[Nemesis]

How you have Carp over Gans, Canzi Ross, Tunney, Louis and Charles is beyond me.

Well

1 Ross
2 Canzi
3 Armstrong
4 Fitz
5 Leonard
6 Gans
7 Pep
8 Greb
9 Walker
and ten Wilde.

Where is Robinson?

Carpentier held a title of some description in at least 7 of the 8 weight categories (national/continental/world)

[Luigi1985]

so you would have wilde in there luigi?i thought you weren't too keen?


What do you mean? Because I posted in the past that I feel he´s a bit overrated? Yeah, IMO he´s a bit overrated, but that doesn´t change the fact that he was a great fighter, and in a p4p-list until the 50s I would have him probably in my Top10....

[Dempsey1238]

Where is Robinson?

Carpentier held a title of some description in at least 7 of the 8 weight categories (national/continental/world)

Robinson is over rated. No way he did more than the guys I listed. They either won more titles(Canzi, Armstrong, Fitz, Ross) or over came more roadblocks(Gans) to reach the top.

[C. M. Clay II]

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Joe Gans
4. Willie Pep
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Joe Louis
7. Harry Greb
8. Jack Johnson
9. Bob Fitzsimmons
10. Jack Dempsey

:good

[Luigi1985]

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Joe Gans
4. Willie Pep
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Joe Louis
7. Harry Greb
8. Jack Johnson
9. Bob Fitzsimmons
10. Jack Dempsey

:good


JACK JOHNSON??? :rofl

And you say you´re not biased or so...

[C. M. Clay II]

JACK JOHNSON??? :rofl

And you say you´re not biased or so...

I have him #8. What's wrong with that?

[Luigi1985]

I have him #8. What's wrong with that?


He´s at the best 8th at HW or so (OK, we have 2007 now)...

[Dempsey1238]

And no way is Johnson over Ross.

[C. M. Clay II]

He´s at the best 8th at HW or so (OK, we have 2007 now)...

Really? Name 7 heavyweights before 1950 that are better than Jack Johnson.

[C. M. Clay II]

And no way is Johnson over Ross.

That's your opinion. Not by any means a concensus.:good

[Dempsey1238]

Ross beat more HOFERs than Jack Johnson.

[brownpimp88]

Ross beat more HOFERs than Jack Johnson.
Yeah, how many hofers has he beat that are ATG?

Jack Johnson beat:
Stanley Ketchel
Bob Fitzsimmons
Joe Jeanette
Jim Jefrries
Sam Langford
Marvin Hart
Sam Mcvea
Denver Ed Martin
Philly Jack O brien

[Nemesis]

Ross beat more HOFERs than Jack Johnson.

So did Robinson beat more than Ross :good

[Luigi1985]

That´s my list, perhaps I forgot someone, but than just say it instead of saying what an ass-hole I´m:




1: Henry Armstrong
2: Benny Leonard
3: Willie Pep
4: Tony Canzoneri
5: Sam Langford
6: Barney Ross
7: Joe Gans
8: Sugar Ray Robinson
9: Jimmy Wilde
10: Barbados Joe Walcott

[cross_trainer]

Yeah, how many hofers has he beat that are ATG?

Jack Johnson beat:
Stanley Ketchel

Whom he outweighed by 40 lbs.


Bob Fitzsimmons

Completely shot, as Johnson himself agreed.



Joe Jeanette

Green, but still a great win.



Jim Jefrries

Old and shot.


Sam Langford

Smaller than he would become later on, but a great win nonetheless.

Marvin Hart

He lost to Marvin Hart, though the decision was disputed.


Sam Mcvea

Same reservations as Jeanette. A great win, but not over a prime McVea.


Denver Ed Martin
Philly Jack O brien

Fair enough.






Johnson is clearly a great fighter and a great heavyweight--one of the greatest of the pre-1950 era. Though some of his wins weren't as good as they looked on paper, they still mark him as the greatest heavyweight of his day. If this thread was solely about heavyweights, he would have an easy time getting into the top 5.

But alas, it's about P4P fighters, and there are many others (like Langford and Wilde) who deserve greater recognition.

[C. M. Clay II]

That´s my list, perhaps I forgot someone, but than just say it instead of saying what an ass-hole I´m:




1: Henry Armstrong
2: Benny Leonard
3: Willie Pep
4: Tony Canzoneri
5: Sam Langford
6: Barney Ross
7: Joe Gans
8: Sugar Ray Robinson
9: Jimmy Wilde
10: Barbados Joe Walcott

Are you serious?

[Luigi1985]

Are you serious?


Of course. In 1950, he wasn´t nr. 1 yet...

[brownpimp88]

Whom he outweighed by 60 lbs.



Completely shot, as Johnson himself agreed.




Green, but still a great win.




Old and shot.



Smaller than he would become later on, but a great win nonetheless.



He lost to Marvin Hart, though the decision was disputed.



Same reservations as Jeanette. A great win, but not over a prime McVea.



Fair enough.






Johnson is clearly a great fighter and a great heavyweight--one of the greatest of the pre-1950 era. Though some of his wins weren't as good as they looked on paper, they still mark him as the greatest heavyweight of his day. If this thread was solely about heavyweights, he would have an easy time getting into the top 5.

But alas, it's about P4P fighters, and there are many others (like Langford and Wilde) who deserve greater recognition.
I meant tommy burns instead of marvin hart. Johnson has a much better names resume than jimmy wilde does, he beat so many great fighters.

[C. M. Clay II]

Whom he outweighed by 60 lbs.

So Ketchel weighed 140lbs?

Green, but still a great win.

So was Johnson.

Smaller than he would become later on, but a great win nonetheless.

So was Johnson.

Same reservations as Jeanette. A great win, but not over a prime McVea.

It wasn't a prime Johnson either.

[C. M. Clay II]

Of course. In 1950, he wasn´t nr. 1 yet...

Oh, well my list was based on head-to-head, so I got confused. I got it now.:good

[cross_trainer]

So Ketchel weighed 140lbs?.

:lol:

I was thinking "160", so naturally I typed 60 instead of 40.

One of those :patsch moments.



So was Johnson.

Not to the same degree, since Johnson was closer to his prime. But like I said, it's still a great win.


So was Johnson.

Ditto


It wasn't a prime Johnson either.

Tritto.

[Luigi1985]

Oh, well my list was based on head-to-head, so I got confused. I got it now.:good


No problem.

[Dempsey1238]

Yeah, how many hofers has he beat that are ATG?

Jack Johnson beat:
Stanley Ketchel
Bob Fitzsimmons
Joe Jeanette
Jim Jefrries
Sam Langford
Marvin Hart
Sam Mcvea
Denver Ed Martin
Philly Jack O brien

Tony Caniz
Jimmy McLarin,
Battling Battlino
Billy Petrolle
Baby Joe Gans
William Hess
Garcia
Frankie Klick

Jack Johnson fought his gallery one maybe 2 times but Ross beat things guys muilty times, Cani 2 times, McLarin 2 times, Petrolle 2 times.

[Nemesis]

Whom he outweighed by 40 lbs.



Completely shot, as Johnson himself agreed.




Green, but still a great win.




Old and shot.



Smaller than he would become later on, but a great win nonetheless.



He lost to Marvin Hart, though the decision was disputed.



Same reservations as Jeanette. A great win, but not over a prime McVea.



Fair enough.






Johnson is clearly a great fighter and a great heavyweight--one of the greatest of the pre-1950 era. Though some of his wins weren't as good as they looked on paper, they still mark him as the greatest heavyweight of his day. If this thread was solely about heavyweights, he would have an easy time getting into the top 5.

But alas, it's about P4P fighters, and there are many others (like Langford and Wilde) who deserve greater recognition.

your looking at the glass half empty their my friend ;)

[cross_trainer]

your looking at the glass half empty their my friend ;)

Half is full and the other half is empty. I'm addressing both sides. ;)

Like I said, it's Johnson's wins against Jeanette, Langford, and McVey that seal his legacy. Those are great wins, but not on the level of a top 10 P4P guy by the standards given.

[brownpimp88]

Tony Caniz
Jimmy McLarin,
Battling Battlino
Billy Petrolle
Baby Joe Gans
William Hess
Garcia
Frankie Klick

Jack Johnson fought his gallery one maybe 2 times but Ross beat things guys muilty times, Cani 2 times, McLarin 2 times, Petrolle 2 times.
baby joe gans, hess, garcia and klick are not in the IBHOF and the guys johnson beat are bigger legends by far.

[Dempsey1238]

They should be the hall. They were great fighters.

[brownpimp88]

They should be the hall. They were great fighters.
You said ross beat more when infact johnson beat about 8 or 9, while ross beat 4.

[Dempsey1238]

Well 4, 5 6 7 8 9 ten.

Ross beat them more than once. You can say the same with Jack Johnson outside of Joe J and McVey.

Thinking about it, Ross beat about ten hofers.

[Holmes' Jab]

My picks:

1. Henry Armstrong
2. SRR
3. Benny Leonard
4. Willie Pep
5. Charley Burley
6. Joe Gans
7. Joe Louis
8. Harry Greb
9. Sam Langford
10. Ezzard Charles

:good

[My dinner with Conteh]

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Joe Gans
4. Willie Pep
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Joe Louis
7. Harry Greb
8. Jack Johnson
9. Bob Fitzsimmons
10. Jack Dempsey

:good


Not too bad a list, apart from Dempsey of course.

[Duodenum]

Hey Duodenum, don´t worry, it´s an excellent list. It´s just humanly to forget sometimes something... :yep the only 2 names I perhaps miss, are Barbados Joe Walcott and Jimmy Wilde...Thank you Luigi. If nothing else, at least that reply offered a starting point. Although I interpreted your request as being for a P4P listing, rather than a question of speculative head to head performance, I naturally had to consider the reality of certain such meetings.

Barbados Joe Walcott was difficult to exclude. I went with the lighter Gans, based on published eyewitness accounts of their 1904 encounter which allege that Gans had the better of it (mindful of the fact that Barbados Joe was in decline-again, these were difficult choices in many instances), and also because Langford considered Gans the GOAT, high praise indeed.

Jimmy Wilde could easily be included in a revised version of my list. Leaving out the likes of Owen Moran and Jim Driscoll was a hard judgement to make.

Because of how Henry Armstrong gushed after his ten rounder with SRR, that there was no way Hank could have ever beaten Robby on his very best day, and the fact that LaMotta (sitting beside Robby in a TV studio being interviewed by Curt Gowdy, about the Valentine's Day Massacre), also stated flatly that SRR was the GOAT, combined with the fact that Ray peaked as a WW, were all convergent considerations in my rating Robinson tops overall. (Duran would be my number one pick from 1950 on, and my number two overall P4P ATG behind Robby.)

I've seen some excellent lists offered since posting mine. However, it does surprise a bit that some rate Armstrong over SRR, given Hank's own appraisal of SRR as superior to himself. But I do understand how staggering Armstrong's achievments were. In a year's time, he went from dethroning tough featherweight champion Petey Sarron (who himself could eventually be enshrined as an HOFer), to scoring a 15 round decision win defending the world WW title while weighing 134 pounds over future MW champion Ceferino Garcia (in Hank's first title fight as a reigning triple crown champion).

Post #6 by Dempsey1238, listing Barney Ross at the top, is perfectly reasonable to me, an easily understandable selection everytime I review the footage of Ross retiring Billy Petrolle, or winning his rubber match with Jimmy McLarnin. If we were to compile a subjective list of which boxers had the biggest hearts in the history of the sport, I might well leave second place blank after naming Ross at number one.

Take into account that Barney was above draft age during WW II, but joined the Marines anyway, then asked for combat duty when they tried assigning him to serve as a boxing instructor instead. Then factor in his extreme heroism at Guadalcanal. Next, consider the manly toughness and courage with which he voluntarily sought to overcome his post war morphine addiction, an aim he successfully achieved in just 120 days, cold turkey. I'm not convinced Louis, Foreman, Shavers or Dempsey could have taken somebody as tough as Barney out. It's not humanly possible to be braver or tougher than Barney Ross.

Ross was only floored twice in the first round of his initial bout with Garcia (boxing as a junior welterweight against a middleweight), getting up the first time without a count, and getting up from the second knockdown after two seconds, as the bell rang to end the round. (How meaningless was this development? It was the only round of the match Garcia won.) In a ten round nontitle rematch, and then in a 15 WW defense for which Garcia dropped some weight to challenge for, Ross soundly thrashed him twice more.

[Dempsey1238]

I cant hold the Robinson lost against Armstrong. First we know he was shot, 2nd we there is no film on the fight as of today. One of thsos lost bouts. I give a Peak Armstrong a great shot in beating Robinson. Robinson seem to always have problems with the swarmer type of fighters from Jake Lamotta, to Carman, and ended with Fullmer. Randy Turpin even used the swarming style on Robinson and did it with great effort to beat Robinson. As far as styles goes, Armstrong has one to at the LEAST give Robinson a hard time with the pace Henry will be bringing. Rember that Armstrong was on the way out in there historic bout.

[Duodenum]

I cant hold the Robinson lost against Armstrong. First we know he was shot, 2nd we there is no film on the fight as of today. One of thsos lost bouts. I give a Peak Armstrong a great shot in beating Robinson. Robinson seem to always have problems with the swarmer type of fighters from Jake Lamotta, to Carman, and ended with Fullmer. Randy Turpin even used the swarming style on Robinson and did it with great effort to beat Robinson. As far as styles goes, Armstrong has one to at the LEAST give Robinson a hard time with the pace Henry will be bringing. Rember that Armstrong was on the way out in there historic bout.True. But Lou Ambers was also a sweet mover who gave Armstrong 15 rounds of hell in their first matchup, at a time when Hank was defending his WW Title while weighing under the LW limit. You're right. Armstrong's testimonial on behalf of SRR is not necessarily enough to go on, but we do have the numerous accounts of first hand professional observers as well.

The Herkimer Hurricane was handled like a baby in originally dropping his lightweight title to a post prime Canzi, but had Armstrong vomiting blood from his grotesquely swollen face in the dressing room, after Henry made history at Lou's expense. (Ambers made sure Hank was in no condition to celebrate becoming a triple crown champion. He was sick enough that things were reportedly very hushed and subdued afterwards.)

[Minotauro]

1. Henry Armstrong
2. Sam Langford
3. Harry Greb
4. Sugar Ray Robinson
5. Joe Gans
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Joe Louis
8. Barbados Joe Walcott
9. Willie Pep
10. Benny Leonard

[Luigi1985]

Thank you Luigi. If nothing else, at least that reply offered a starting point. Although I interpreted your request as being for a P4P listing, rather than a question of speculative head to head performance, I naturally had to consider the reality of certain such meetings.

Barbados Joe Walcott was difficult to exclude. I went with the lighter Gans, based on published eyewitness accounts of their 1904 encounter which allege that Gans had the better of it (mindful of the fact that Barbados Joe was in decline-again, these were difficult choices in many instances), and also because Langford considered Gans the GOAT, high praise indeed.

Jimmy Wilde could easily be included in a revised version of my list. Leaving out the likes of Owen Moran and Jim Driscoll was a hard judgement to make.

Because of how Henry Armstrong gushed after his ten rounder with SRR, that there was no way Hank could have ever beaten Robby on his very best day, and the fact that LaMotta (sitting beside Robby in a TV studio being interviewed by Curt Gowdy, about the Valentine's Day Massacre), also stated flatly that SRR was the GOAT, combined with the fact that Ray peaked as a WW, were all convergent considerations in my rating Robinson tops overall. (Duran would be my number one pick from 1950 on, and my number two overall P4P ATG behind Robby.)

I've seen some excellent lists offered since posting mine. However, it does surprise a bit that some rate Armstrong over SRR, given Hank's own appraisal of SRR as superior to himself. But I do understand how staggering Armstrong's achievments were. In a year's time, he went from dethroning tough featherweight champion Petey Sarron (who himself could eventually be enshrined as an HOFer), to scoring a 15 round decision win defending the world WW title while weighing 134 pounds over future MW champion Ceferino Garcia (in Hank's first title fight as a reigning triple crown champion).

Post #6 by Dempsey1238, listing Barney Ross at the top, is perfectly reasonable to me, an easily understandable selection everytime I review the footage of Ross retiring Billy Petrolle, or winning his rubber match with Jimmy McLarnin. If we were to compile a subjective list of which boxers had the biggest hearts in the history of the sport, I might well leave second place blank after naming Ross at number one.

Take into account that Barney was above draft age during WW II, but joined the Marines anyway, then asked for combat duty when they tried assigning him to serve as a boxing instructor instead. Then factor in his extreme heroism at Guadalcanal. Next, consider the manly toughness and courage with which he voluntarily sought to overcome his post war morphine addiction, an aim he successfully achieved in just 120 days, cold turkey. I'm not convinced Louis, Foreman, Shavers or Dempsey could have taken somebody as tough as Barney out. It's not humanly possible to be braver or tougher than Barney Ross.

Ross was only floored twice in the first round of his initial bout with Garcia (boxing as a junior welterweight against a middleweight), getting up the first time without a count, and getting up from the second knockdown after two seconds, as the bell rang to end the round. (How meaningless was this development? It was the only round of the match Garcia won.) In a ten round nontitle rematch, and then in a 15 WW defense for which Garcia dropped some weight to challenge for, Ross soundly thrashed him twice more.



Great post! :good


Btw, you wrote, why some pick Armstrong over SRR (like me), well, in 1950, SRR was well-known as a future HOF with a great WW- career, but over WW he didn´t achieve that much, I think his best win at MW was at this point over the very good Bobo Olson, if the question would be who would be the best p4p- figther ever until 1960 or so, well, than SRR probably would be my nr. 1- candidate...

[Duodenum]

Great post! :goodThanks. I'll steal whatever credit I can sneak away with whenever possible.:boltBtw, you wrote, why some pick Armstrong over SRR (like me), well, in 1950, SRR was well-known as a future HOF with a great WW- career, but over WW he didn´t achieve that much, I think his best win at MW was at this point over the very good Bobo Olson, if the question would be who would be the best p4p- figther ever until 1960 or so, well, than SRR probably would be my nr. 1- candidate...I have read literature dating to the early 1940's which already touts SRR as the projected greatest of all-time that far back. After his glittering amateur career (in which he beat Willie Pep, among others), he had accumulated a professional record of 101-1-2 by the end of the 1940's. He'd beaten Sammy Angott three times, Marty Servo twice, Fritzie Zivic twice, Jake LaMotta four times, Tommy Bell twice, and Kid Gavilan twice. (That's at least eleven wins over current HOFers.)

Angott was the current LW champion, and a veteran of 80 fights when SRR dropped and dominated him over ten rounds in their first meeting, just 20 bouts into Ray's own punch-for-pay career, with both weighing barely a pound over the lightweight limit. Then, he handed eventual WW champion predecessor Marty Servo his first loss in 45 fights, and immediately followed that up with a ten round decision win over freshly dethroned WW titlist (and 27 year old, 142 bout veteran) Fritzie Zivic, at MSG. Thus, even before the United States entered World War Two, Robby was already considered to be both the best lightweight and welterweight on the planet by much of the public.

In SRR's first match after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, he beat Zivic again, this time handing Fritzie one of the only four stoppage defeats Zivic would sustain in his 232 fight career. The only three blemishes on Ray's record were a decision loss to LaMotta, a much heavier opponent who he had beaten four other times during the 1940's, a draw against an opponent he had previously decisioned (Henry Brimm), and a draw against Jose Basora, which Ray avenged with a single round blowout. All this on top of his win over Armstrong.

When the US entered WW II, Robinson could easily have been the dual LW-WW Champion like Armstrong before him, and was indeed considered as such by many at that relatively early stage of his career. When the much avoided LaMotta finally had his opportunity, and dethroned Marcel Cerdan in June, 1949, there was little question that Robby, who already sported a 4-1 head-to-head record against Jake, would take the MW championship if LaMotta was the one SRR challenged for it. (The big question has always been how Robinson would have fared against a healthy Marcel Cerdan.)

Might SRR have been a simultaneous triple crown champion, like Armstrong before him, in the LW, WW and MW divisions, if WW II had started a little later for the US, and he had not been avoided for title shots by Angott, Cochran and Zale? Yes, Robby easily could have been the LW/WW/MW World Champion for the duration of WW II, and probably should have been. As flashy a performer as Ray was, a television viewing public during the early and middle 1940's would have demanded that SRR have much quicker championship opportunities, title shots certain to have been successful.

The supposition I have is that SRR would have been considered by many as the P4P GOAT if he'd retired after his WW title defense against Gavilan, but that would have been as widely debated as Greb's place, because of the dearth of fight film footage that exists of Ray prior to his dethroning of LaMotta (which cemented Ray's P4P reputation in concrete).

People have a far greater impression of Robinson as a middleweight because his entire championship career beginning with the Valentine's Day Massacre was chronicled on live television and movie film footage which exists to this day, and viewed by millions at the time. (The only film clip I've ever seen of SRR as WW Champion was from his final title defense in that division against Charlie Fusari during August 1950.)

From what I understand, no moving pictures of Robinson in competition during the 1940's has come to light, making his career during that first decade of professional action something like that of Harry Greb, only reported by writers who observed him, perhaps some recorded radio broadcasts, and the record itself. (Likewise, I'm not sure if any footage of Willie Pep actually is in the public record, prior to his final match with Saddler. It would appear that Pep/Sadler clips represented as earlier fights in their series are actually culled from action during that last bout between the two.)

Just because all the known footage of Robinson came after the 1940's does not automatically mean Robby was better during the 1950's. It simply means that he was later available to be viewed in action.

If the development of television had not been stalled for ten years by the advent of World War II, and we were able to witness ALL of Sugar Ray Robinson's career from beginning to end, then nobody would question that he was better in the 1940's than he ever was after that. But the fact remains that his exploits after 1950 were seen on screens around the globe by a much wider audience, and we tend to believe what we can see for ourselves more than what is relayed to us by others.

Luigi, I fully respect the reasons behind your selection of Armstrong at the top of your list, and I'm perfectly comfortable with it. I only wish to express the rationale behind my own choice of Robinson. Robby won the MW title from LaMotta in 1951, and lost it five times. If he had won the LW and WW titles in 1941, I do not believe he would have lost any title defenses for over ten years.

Now, there is a final comment I wish to make about the selections on my list. At their very best, I believe there is only a sliver of difference between my number one and my number ten. Others who refuse to partake of such ratings frequently have this realization as a factor in considering this sort of thing as an exercise in futility. However, if rankings like this were banned on sites like this one, they would be far quieter than they are.

Sorry this was such a long post, but I'm struggling to make myself understood as best I can, and need many more words to explain myself than most. (I'll need to work to fix that.)

[Luigi1985]

Thanks. I'll steal whatever credit I can sneak away with whenever possible.:boltI have read literature dating to the early 1940's which already touts SRR as the projected greatest of all-time that far back. After his glittering amateur career (in which he beat Willie Pep, among others), he had accumulated a professional record of 101-1-2 by the end of the 1940's. He'd beaten Sammy Angott three times, Marty Servo twice, Fritzie Zivic twice, Jake LaMotta four times, Tommy Bell twice, and Kid Gavilan twice. (That's at least eleven wins over current HOFers.)

Angott was the current LW champion, and a veteran of 80 fights when SRR dropped and dominated him over ten rounds in their first meeting, just 20 bouts into Ray's own punch-for-pay career, with both weighing barely a pound over the lightweight limit. Then, he handed eventual WW champion predecessor Marty Servo his first loss in 45 fights, and immediately followed that up with a ten round decision win over freshly dethroned WW titlist (and 27 year old, 142 bout veteran) Fritzie Zivic, at MSG. Thus, even before the United States entered World War Two, Robby was already considered to be both the best lightweight and welterweight on the planet by much of the public.

In SRR's first match after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, he beat Zivic again, this time handing Fritzie one of the only four stoppage defeats Zivic would sustain in his 232 fight career. The only three blemishes on Ray's record were a decision loss to LaMotta, a much heavier opponent who he had beaten four other times during the 1940's, a draw against an opponent he had previously decisioned (Henry Brimm), and a draw against Jose Basora, which Ray avenged with a single round blowout. All this on top of his win over Armstrong.

When the US entered WW II, Robinson could easily have been the dual LW-WW Champion like Armstrong before him, and was indeed considered as such by many at that relatively early stage of his career. When the much avoided LaMotta finally had his opportunity, and dethroned Marcel Cerdan in June, 1949, there was little question that Robby, who already sported a 4-1 head-to-head record against Jake, would take the MW championship if LaMotta was the one SRR challenged for it. (The big question has always been how Robinson would have fared against a healthy Marcel Cerdan.)

Might SRR have been a simultaneous triple crown champion, like Armstrong before him, in the LW, WW and MW divisions, if WW II had started a little later for the US, and he had not been avoided for title shots by Angott, Cochran and Zale? Yes, Robby easily could have been the LW/WW/MW World Champion for the duration of WW II, and probably should have been. As flashy a performer as Ray was, a television viewing public during the early and middle 1940's would have demanded that SRR have much quicker championship opportunities, title shots certain to have been successful.

The supposition I have is that SRR would have been considered by many as the P4P GOAT if he'd retired after his WW title defense against Gavilan, but that would have been as widely debated as Greb's place, because of the dearth of fight film footage that exists of Ray prior to his dethroning of LaMotta (which cemented Ray's P4P reputation in concrete).

People have a far greater impression of Robinson as a middleweight because his entire championship career beginning with the Valentine's Day Massacre was chronicled on live television and movie film footage which exists to this day, and viewed by millions at the time. (The only film clip I've ever seen of SRR as WW Champion was from his final title defense in that division against Charlie Fusari during August 1950.)

From what I understand, no moving pictures of Robinson in competition during the 1940's has come to light, making his career during that first decade of professional action something like that of Harry Greb, only reported by writers who observed him, perhaps some recorded radio broadcasts, and the record itself. (Likewise, I'm not sure if any footage of Willie Pep actually is in the public record, prior to his final match with Saddler. It would appear that Pep/Sadler clips represented as earlier fights in their series are actually culled from action during that last bout between the two.)

Just because all the known footage of Robinson came after the 1940's does not automatically mean Robby was better during the 1950's. It simply means that he was later available to be viewed in action.

If the development of television had not been stalled for ten years by the advent of World War II, and we were able to witness ALL of Sugar Ray Robinson's career from beginning to end, then nobody would question that he was better in the 1940's than he ever was after that. But the fact remains that his exploits after 1950 were seen on screens around the globe by a much wider audience, and we tend to believe what we can see for ourselves more than what is relayed to us by others.

Luigi, I fully respect the reasons behind your selection of Armstrong at the top of your list, and I'm perfectly comfortable with it. I only wish to express the rationale behind my own choice of Robinson. Robby won the MW title from LaMotta in 1951, and lost it five times. If he had won the LW and WW titles in 1941, I do not believe he would have lost any title defenses for over ten years.

Now, there is a final comment I wish to make about the selections on my list. At their very best, I believe there is only a sliver of difference between my number one and my number ten. Others who refuse to partake of such ratings frequently have this realization as a factor in considering this sort of thing as an exercise in futility. However, if rankings like this were banned on sites like this one, they would be far quieter than they are.

Sorry this was such a long post, but I'm struggling to make myself understood as best I can, and need many more words to explain myself than most. (I'll need to work to fix that.)


You don´t need to apologize because you wrote such a long and good post! Much better than if you respond with a "Agreed!" or just a smilie. I have also nothing against SRR at the top in a p4p-ist (in 1950), like you correctly wrote, even at that moment he beat so many great fighters yet, a place at the sun can surely be given. But like you also mentioned, from the nr. 1 until the nr. 10 it´s all very close, and we can´t blame someone for having Ross for example behind Canzoneri and so on. Very tough to make spontaneous such a list with so many great fighters... :thumbsup

[Duodenum]

You don´t need to apologize because you wrote such a long and good post! Much better than if you respond with a "Agreed!" or just a smilie. I have also nothing against SRR at the top in a p4p-ist (in 1950), like you correctly wrote, even at that moment he beat so many great fighters yet, a place at the sun can surely be given. But like you also mentioned, from the nr. 1 until the nr. 10 it´s all very close, and we can´t blame someone for having Ross for example behind Canzoneri and so on. Very tough to make spontaneous such a list with so many great fighters... :thumbsupOnce again, thanks. Years ago, I had some professional writers tell me that the first draft produced off the cuff was always the best one to go with, but many of these writers were newspaper men who also had to meet deadlines. I usually find that when I write about something, then set it aside for a while before coming back to review it, that I rewrite it extensively, and come up with a much better result. But in the case of your thread, I winged it, rather than giving my answer any deep thought. (Otherwise, I might never have responded to your thread at all.)

This time, after sleeping on it, I'm comfortable that I made the best choices I could within the limits of my knowledge. The chief bias appears to be that my selections are rather Americentric, but that is an assessment best left for posters outside the United States to judge. If the top ten happen to come from a single nation, then that's simply the fact of the matter. I would not include names like Villa, Carpentier or Fitzsimmons merely because they were not from the United States, but because I genuinely believed they belonged among the true top ten. (And if I were to revise my list after further consideration, I might include them in the place of others I originally named.)

[ron u.k.]

What do you mean? Because I posted in the past that I feel he´s a bit overrated? Yeah, IMO he´s a bit overrated, but that doesn´t change the fact that he was a great fighter, and in a p4p-list until the 50s I would have him probably in my Top10....thats fair enough pal:good