Riddick Bowe

[Lunny]

What was the deal with him? I'm not very knowledgable on the sport.

Why didn't he fight Lewis or Tyson?

I know he lost to Lewis in teh Olympics but could he have beat either of them in the pros?

[Addie]

What was the deal with him? I'm not very knowledgable on the sport.

Why didn't he fight Lewis or Tyson?

I know he lost to Lewis in teh Olympics but could he have beat either of them in the pros?

Rock Newman had his fighter, Bowe, throw his belt in the bin rather than fight Lennox Lewis. Make of that what you will.

Bowe had the ability to beat Lewis in '93, and he also had the ability to beat the Tyson of Ruddock II and beyond.

[My2Sense]

What was the deal with him? I'm not very knowledgable on the sport.

Why didn't he fight Lewis or Tyson?

His manager Rock Newman milked him against tomato cans for as long as he could and at every opportunity. He was supposed to sign to defend his title against Lewis if Lewis beat Ruddock (which he did), but he reneged that promise and threw one of his belts in the trash, for which he was roundly criticized. Tyson was in jail at the time Bowe won his title.


I know he lost to Lewis in teh Olympics but could he have beat either of them in the pros?

He's untested/unproven against big punchers. He turned down possible big fights with both Lennox and Ruddock, so there's reason to believe his people were wary of putting him in with punchers as well. I don't think he ever would've beaten Lennox; it's possible he might've beaten Tyson, but that would depend on if he could survive Tyson's early round onslaught, which is open to debate.

[Addie]

His manager Rock Newman milked him against tomato cans for as long as he could and at every opportunity. He was supposed to sign to defend his title against Lewis if Lewis beat Ruddock (which he did), but he reneged that promise and threw one of his belts in the trash, for which he was roundly criticized. Tyson was in jail at the time Bowe won his title.

If Lewis has trouble with Mercer and Bruno, '92 Bowe gives him hell.

[QUOTE]He's untested/unproven against big punchers. He turned down possible big fights with both Lennox and Ruddock, so there's reason to believe his people were wary of putting him in with punchers as well. I don't think he ever would've beaten Lennox; it's possible he might've beaten Tyson, but that would depend on if he could survive Tyson's early round onslaught, which is open to debate.


Bowe showed his resilience when he took everything Golota had to offer him, and '92 Bowe was a different animal to that version. He never showed an ounce of quit in him, and I favor Riddick to beat any version of Tyson that came out of Prison. prime Tyson, the one that took Berbick and Holmes apart, is a different story.

[Muchmoore]

Perhaps the best ever super heavyweight in terms of offense. Easily the best on the inside.

I don't like Bowe against guys that can hit and are big. Lennox Lewis is the worst matchup for him imaginable, I can see Bowe giving pretty much any smaller ATG a run for his money though.

[The Wanderer]

What was the deal with him? I'm not very knowledgable on the sport.

Why didn't he fight Lewis

There are generally two schools of thought on that. One is that Bowe's manager, Rock Newman, outsmarted himself. He wanted Bowe to ride the gravy train for awhile and get a couple of easy money fights under his belt before taking on anyone dangerous, (although it should be noted that they probably expected to face Ray Mercer for Bowe's second defense, as they drew up a contract to face the winner of Mercer-Jesse Ferguson, but somehow Ferguson won) and that stunts like the garbage bin would add something to the rivalry. Instead what happened was that Bowe got disinterested after 2 easy fights in a row and promptly lost the rematch to Holyfield. Oops.

Lennox, meanwhile, had fought just a month before Bowe-Holyfield II and both he and Bowe would only have one more fight apiece before Lennox lost the WBC title to McCall in what almost everyone thinks was a premature stoppage. Suddenly there were no titles on the line, no prestige, no pay-per0views for a Bowe-Lewis match, and Rock Newman had finessed his way right out of a megafight. (And just to add insult to injury, Bowe was starting to act more and more unstable at the time. Bowe had been built up as a big, friendly, funny, loveable guy, but was incresingly doing weird things like hitting opponents who were on their knees, sucker punching guys at press conferences, etc and nobody could figure it out).

The other school of thought is that Bowe was scared of Lewis. Personally, I find it hard to believe that a guy who took the sort of brutal ass whipping Bowe took from Golota and came back for more was too scared to get in the ring with someone who beat him when he was an amateur. I think it's much more likely that Bowe was getting bad advice.

or Tyson?

Tyson was in prison for most of Bowe's prime. Three months after Tyson's first fight after getting out, Bowe was concluding his trilogy with Holyfield, and his next fight after that was with Golota, and that was the end of Bowe's career. (at least the end of any career that counts).

[The Wanderer]

By the way, this is a total tangent, but I have to say I've always found the state the alphabet titles were in when Tyson got out of prison fascinating. For your champions you have Bruce Seldon, Frank Bruno, and the IBF title is vacant for awhile before Michael Moore recovers it.

Guys who are not champions during that time: Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis, Mercer, Foreman, not to mention rising prospects like Tua. If Don King didn't somehow orchestrate that so Tyson could swoop in and be the Heavyweight savior (making multi-millions on every fight) then it could have hardly worked out better for him.

[My2Sense]

If Lewis has trouble with Mercer and Bruno, '92 Bowe gives him hell.


Not necessarily. Both of those fighters had experience against punchers, unlike Bowe. We don't know how Bowe would handle being in against a big puncher for the very first time as a pro.

[Addie]

Not necessarily. Both of those fighters had experience against punchers, unlike Bowe. We don't know how Bowe would handle being in against a big puncher for the very first time as a pro.

Bruno's experiance with punchers had always been pretty bad. I think it's wrong to assume just because Bowe didn't come up against a puncher that must mean he couldn't do it. He'd hang with Lewis, he had all the attributes to be toughest ever assignment. Who knows.

[Cachibatches]

What was the deal with him? I'm not very knowledgable on the sport.

Why didn't he fight Lewis or Tyson?

I know he lost to Lewis in teh Olympics but could he have beat either of them in the pros?
Because he was too busy figthing Jessie Ferguson, Michael Dokes, and Ellijah Tillery.

[Seamus]

I tend to think that though he showed flashes of brilliance he was over-rated. I was extremely unimpressed over his foul-ridden win over Coetzer. Beyond that, he fought Holyfield, bums and got the crap beaten out of him twice by Golota.

[My2Sense]

Bruno's experiance with punchers had always been pretty bad.

Bad experiences are better than no experience.

He blasted out Gerrie Coetzee in a round, and he was leading against Bonecrusher and Witherspoon before they were finally able to catch up with him late. After fighting Lewis, he went on to beat McCall for the title. He proved himself far more willing and able to deal with punchers than Bowe ever did.


I think it's wrong to assume just because Bowe didn't come up against a puncher that must mean he couldn't do it.

You can't actually do something if you're not willing to do it in the first place. Bowe turned down every big puncher that was proposed as a match for him.

[Addie]

Bad experiences are better than no experience.

He blasted out Gerrie Coetzee in a round, and he was leading against Bonecrusher and Witherspoon before they were finally able to catch up with him late. After fighting Lewis, he went on to beat McCall for the title. He proved himself far more willing and able to deal with punchers than Bowe ever did.




You can't actually do something if you're not willing to do it in the first place. Bowe turned down every big puncher that was proposed as a match for him.

Fair point.

I still feel Riddick Bowe had all the attributes to give Lewis a very tough fight, even if he didn't believe it himself.

[Stevie G]

Another one who never fulfilled his potential. I could n't see him ever beating Lewis. Lennox would have hit too hard,and too athletic.

[lefthook31]

There are generally two schools of thought on that. One is that Bowe's manager, Rock Newman, outsmarted himself. He wanted Bowe to ride the gravy train for awhile and get a couple of easy money fights under his belt before taking on anyone dangerous, (although it should be noted that they probably expected to face Ray Mercer for Bowe's second defense, as they drew up a contract to face the winner of Mercer-Jesse Ferguson, but somehow Ferguson won) and that stunts like the garbage bin would add something to the rivalry. Instead what happened was that Bowe got disinterested after 2 easy fights in a row and promptly lost the rematch to Holyfield. Oops.

Lennox, meanwhile, had fought just a month before Bowe-Holyfield II and both he and Bowe would only have one more fight apiece before Lennox lost the WBC title to McCall in what almost everyone thinks was a premature stoppage. Suddenly there were no titles on the line, no prestige, no pay-per0views for a Bowe-Lewis match, and Rock Newman had finessed his way right out of a megafight. (And just to add insult to injury, Bowe was starting to act more and more unstable at the time. Bowe had been built up as a big, friendly, funny, loveable guy, but was incresingly doing weird things like hitting opponents who were on their knees, sucker punching guys at press conferences, etc and nobody could figure it out).

The other school of thought is that Bowe was scared of Lewis. Personally, I find it hard to believe that a guy who took the sort of brutal ass whipping Bowe took from Golota and came back for more was too scared to get in the ring with someone who beat him when he was an amateur. I think it's much more likely that Bowe was getting bad advice.



Tyson was in prison for most of Bowe's prime. Three months after Tyson's first fight after getting out, Bowe was concluding his trilogy with Holyfield, and his next fight after that was with Golota, and that was the end of Bowe's career. (at least the end of any career that counts).
This is probably the most realistic description of what was really going on with Bowe. There are many people who come up with wild speculation that Bowe avoided punchers but thats not the case. If it was, Newman and company certainly would have avoided Bert Cooper on the way to the title. Herbie Hide was coming into his fight with Bowe undefeated with all but one of his fights ending in KO. Gonzalez undefeated with a big KO record, Dokes and Seldon werent feather fisted themselves. So its really just ridiculous to hear that.
It was just a strange time in the heavyweight division. Bruno wasnt really in contention at that time, Ruddock had been beaten by Tyson and Lewis. Besides Lewis there was no laundry list of punchers he avoided. The Lennox Lewis fight should have always been there, but it just never happened. Who knows what would have happened, but I believe Lewis would have gotten schooled had Bowe actually fought him after winning the title. Had it happened after the third Holyfield fight Lewis would have schooled him.

[zadfrak]

Almost all that Hide stuff was at cruiser and not much at heavyweight. Who really bought into Gonzalez? It wasn't as if there was a ton of guys not wanting to get a crack at the guy. Cooper blew hot and cold & Bowe got a cold version. Dokes and Seldon are not big hitters and never were.

Prior to his title shot it was guys like Tubbs who couldn't punch. Biggs was no puncher either. Thomas had 1.5 if not 2 feet in the grave. Coetzer was another cruiser moving up and not a big hitter.

[Woddy]

There are generally two schools of thought on that. One is that Bowe's manager, Rock Newman, outsmarted himself. He wanted Bowe to ride the gravy train for awhile and get a couple of easy money fights under his belt before taking on anyone dangerous, (although it should be noted that they probably expected to face Ray Mercer for Bowe's second defense, as they drew up a contract to face the winner of Mercer-Jesse Ferguson, but somehow Ferguson won) and that stunts like the garbage bin would add something to the rivalry. Instead what happened was that Bowe got disinterested after 2 easy fights in a row and promptly lost the rematch to Holyfield. Oops.

Lennox, meanwhile, had fought just a month before Bowe-Holyfield II and both he and Bowe would only have one more fight apiece before Lennox lost the WBC title to McCall in what almost everyone thinks was a premature stoppage. Suddenly there were no titles on the line, no prestige, no pay-per0views for a Bowe-Lewis match, and Rock Newman had finessed his way right out of a megafight. (And just to add insult to injury, Bowe was starting to act more and more unstable at the time. Bowe had been built up as a big, friendly, funny, loveable guy, but was incresingly doing weird things like hitting opponents who were on their knees, sucker punching guys at press conferences, etc and nobody could figure it out).

The other school of thought is that Bowe was scared of Lewis. Personally, I find it hard to believe that a guy who took the sort of brutal ass whipping Bowe took from Golota and came back for more was too scared to get in the ring with someone who beat him when he was an amateur. I think it's much more likely that Bowe was getting bad advice.



Tyson was in prison for most of Bowe's prime. Three months after Tyson's first fight after getting out, Bowe was concluding his trilogy with Holyfield, and his next fight after that was with Golota, and that was the end of Bowe's career. (at least the end of any career that counts).


This was a very good post.

I to have always blamed Rock Newman for Bowe-Lewis never materializing, rather than question Riddick's heart, which I think was more than proven. Of course, when rating Bowe, I still have to hold his failure to meet Lewis against his legacy, but my no means do I doubt the man's heart for a moment.

[lefthook31]

Almost all that Hide stuff was at cruiser and not much at heavyweight. Who really bought into Gonzalez? It wasn't as if there was a ton of guys not wanting to get a crack at the guy. Cooper blew hot and cold & Bowe got a cold version. Dokes and Seldon are not big hitters and never were.

Prior to his title shot it was guys like Tubbs who couldn't punch. Biggs was no puncher either. Thomas had 1.5 if not 2 feet in the grave. Coetzer was another cruiser moving up and not a big hitter.
Coetzer was a fight for the mandatory shot at the WBA crown. Bowe certainly learned alot more from a fighter like Tony Tubbs than he would have fighting Frank Bruno. Bruno had proven nothing other than he could punch and get stopped. Funny excuse about Cooper, the only guy who you think could punch and Bowe got him on an off night?
Most of Hides fights werent at cruiser either leading up to the Bowe fight.
I understand thats its easy to say now, that noone bought into Gonzalez, but at that time, he was still an untested question mark that was 6'6 with a high KO percentage. Hide had maybe 50% heavyweight fights where he was knocking guys out just the same. Neither had a stellar resume, but the KO percentages were there. Dokes and Seldon were capable punchers, certainly not on the level of Buster Mathis.
Who should Bowe have fought at that time that he ducked because of them being a big puncher? Still waiting for someone to come up with these dangerous contenders at that time.

[zadfrak]

You always have to look at a few branches away from the trunk of the tree. With fighters, you look at styles they didn't match with. There's a reason.Or if they did fight a style, did they avoid it in the future?

Punchers pre - title Bowe; Morrison. Mercer. Lennox. Bruno. Mason. Ruddock. Old guys like Smith or Witherspoon or Snipes possibly.

There also wasn't much talk of a Tubbs rematch was there? Or other slick types like Mike Hunter.

Most likely, from what approach we saw with the bowe management team---which he can fire by the way so it isn't exactly a lifetime agreement--was a match with another easy to hit guy. Like say Alex Stewart. James Pritchard. Those type guys.

And Hide was a cruiser that moved up to heavy. He wasn't a heavy very long prior to the Bowe fight. I don't know if you followed the sport closely or not at the time, but the consensus was Gonzalez would lose as soon as they put him in with a live body.

[Rubber Warrior]

His manager Rock Newman milked him against tomato cans for as long as he could and at every opportunity. He was supposed to sign to defend his title against Lewis if Lewis beat Ruddock (which he did), but he reneged that promise and threw one of his belts in the trash, for which he was roundly criticized. Tyson was in jail at the time Bowe won his title.




He's untested/unproven against big punchers. He turned down possible big fights with both Lennox and Ruddock, so there's reason to believe his people were wary of putting him in with punchers as well. I don't think he ever would've beaten Lennox; it's possible he might've beaten Tyson, but that would depend on if he could survive Tyson's early round onslaught, which is open to debate.

:good

[Rubber Warrior]

Not necessarily. Both of those fighters had experience against punchers, unlike Bowe. We don't know how Bowe would handle being in against a big puncher for the very first time as a pro.

Finally, somebody who recognized the pattern.

Bowe was supposedly this good fighter on the inside....but WOULD he be with somebody who could hit?

There was an old rumor circulating way back before Bowe became champ that had Henry Tillman knocking Bowe cold in the gym. This would be circa 1991, Not sure if it had any basis in truth.....but it does tend to make one think.

To me, Riddick was very overrated in a sense.

I believe he would have been stopped EARLY by Lennox Lewis - even back when Lenny was a brazen banger that would wade-in, circa 1991/1992.

[Lunny]

Cheers for the responses. Bad management then. That's a shame.

[My2Sense]

There are many people who come up with wild speculation that Bowe avoided punchers but thats not the case. If it was, Newman and company certainly would have avoided Bert Cooper on the way to the title. Herbie Hide was coming into his fight with Bowe undefeated with all but one of his fights ending in KO. Gonzalez undefeated with a big KO record, Dokes and Seldon werent feather fisted themselves. So its really just ridiculous to hear that.


What had Cooper, Gonzalez, or Hide done to establish themselves as big HW punchers at that time? Gonzalez's power was unproven at the world class level (and would always be), Cooper hadn't KO'd anyone of note since moving up from cruiser, and the only noteworthy win Hide had was a late-round stoppage of Bentt, who nobody thought much of. None of them were especially renown or proven as big KO punchers.



Who should Bowe have fought at that time that he ducked because of them being a big puncher? Still waiting for someone to come up with these dangerous contenders at that time.

I already mentioned Ruddock and Lewis, both of whom Bowe outright turned down. Cooper, Hide, etc. had nowhere near the proven power of those two.

[lefthook31]

What had Cooper, Gonzalez, or Hide done to establish themselves as big HW punchers at that time? Gonzalez's power was unproven at the world class level (and would always be), Cooper hadn't KO'd anyone of note since moving up from cruiser, and the only noteworthy win Hide had was a late-round stoppage of Bentt, who nobody thought much of. None of them were especially renown or proven as big KO punchers.




I already mentioned Ruddock and Lewis, both of whom Bowe outright turned down. Cooper, Hide, etc. had nowhere near the proven power of those two.
Right thats two!!!!!!!!!!!!! People say he avoided punchers. Thats two fighters, one of which was knocked out of contention by both Lewis and Tyson. For what reason would Bowe have to fight Ruddock after winning the title?? They chose the WBA route for a number of reasons, mainly because of the connection with King and Suliamon, regardless of what anyone wants to think. Lewis was the buildup money fight that never happened This is another arguement in itself..
Cooper was a proven puncher. He later almost knocked out Evander Holyfield. Had Moorer on the deck what three times, knocked out some good fighters, Norris a few others? He was certainly a proven puncher and went onto prove it moreso. He didnt become a better puncher after fighting Riddick Bowe:lol:.
Youre right about Gonzalez and even Hide, "unproven", so wouldnt a fighter looking to avoid punchers avoid guys with big KO percentages on their records if they were unproven especially one that was bigger than he was that beat him in the olympics?

[lefthook31]

Finally, somebody who recognized the pattern.

Bowe was supposedly this good fighter on the inside....but WOULD he be with somebody who could hit?

There was an old rumor circulating way back before Bowe became champ that had Henry Tillman knocking Bowe cold in the gym. This would be circa 1991, Not sure if it had any basis in truth.....but it does tend to make one think.

To me, Riddick was very overrated in a sense.

I believe he would have been stopped EARLY by Lennox Lewis - even back when Lenny was a brazen banger that would wade-in, circa 1991/1992.
Overated? How so? He was the undisputed champion by beating Evander Holyfield at his best. Who else did that? He lost once in a razor close decision in the rematch. Regardless if he was losing to Andrew Golota, he still had enough to make him quit and foul out.
Pretty cut and dry, hes not overated in my book, just a good solid champion that blew his peak years, but still had a pretty respectable career. Hes certainly not on the level of a Frank Bruno or a Shannon Briggs, but hes also not rated in the top ten or placed higher in an all time list than Tyson Lewis or Holyfield. Maybe he could have been, anyone who knows boxing will tell you he had the skill set for it.
You want to talk overated, Lennox Lewis is overated, but we already discussed this over 25 pages. :good

[Mendoza]

What was the deal with him? I'm not very knowledgable on the sport.

Why didn't he fight Lewis or Tyson?

I know he lost to Lewis in teh Olympics but could he have beat either of them in the pros?

Bowe's manager Rock Newman avoided Lewis because he likely felt that Lewis would have Ko'd Bowe before Bowe and he had a chance to make a few title defenses. Hence Bowe had the famous tossing his belt into the trash can as he was being stripped for not fighting Lewis. Looking at the Olympic gold medal match between the two, Bowe seemed to have no defense for Lewis hard right hands.

On the other hand Bowe's manager wanted Tyson, and felt Tyson was tailor made for Bowe. He's right. Bowe was a better version of Buster Douglas. Tyson's people did not want to risk their golden goose vs Bowe, so they settled for easy defenses instead, and eventually lost to Holyfield.

In the ring, and in shape Bowe had few problems aside from defense, and good boxer / movers.

Out of the ring, Bowe had managerial and gluttony issues. Rock Newman said Bowe loved being great, but hatted the process of becoming great. In other words, Bowe was a lazy fighter. Newman in my opinion sabotaged Bowe's career. Newman had close ties to the nation of Islam, and wanted Bowe to be the next Ali. It is a little know fact that after Tommy Morrison defeated Foreman there was a HUGE demand for Morrison vs. Bowe. Morrison's manager Bill Clayton and Newman meet. Things looked good, then according to Clayton Newman balked and told the press you'll have to ask him why. Speculation is Newman and the nation of Islam did not want to risk Bowe vs an American white guy who had a shot to defeat him. Then Newman took Bowe to Africa. The move misfired, an Bowe lost even more focus. And of course Newman lead the riot charge in Madison Square Garden in the first Golota fight. Newman was a real psycho.

I think Bowe was an ATG top 20 heavyweight, and if he had better management, he might have achieved even greater acclaim. Under the tutelage of Futch, and in shape, and focused Bowe was a tough man to beat. Bowe is on of two lineal champions who never suffered a KO or TKO defeat.

[lefthook31]

Sabotaged his career? Instead of fighting Lewis he signed a contract with a guarantee of six fights with HBO with the potential to make 100 million, which included an eventual showdown with Lewis. It was the richest contract in boxing at the time. How is that a manager sabotaging his career? Newman didnt make the best choices for Bowe staying in the gym and active, but he certainly didnt sabotage Bowes career, and really it wasnt Bowes fault entirely for him and Lewis never meeting in the ring.

[Bokaj]

Since Bowe's defense was so poor, I don't very much like his chances against powerful, skillful punchers like Lewis and Tyson. He could possible have worn out post-prison Tyson, but Lewis has his number.

I like Bowe h2h against many other ATGs, though. I have picked him to beat both Foreman and Frazier for example. I'd also pick Bowe against Marciano without hesitation.

I think Liston beats him, though. Could actually do a real beat down on him if it was that kind of night. Would be extremely interesting to see Bowe against Louis. Hard one to predict. Louis is a sharper puncher and has better defense, but not by miles, and Bowe is bigger, stronger and more durable. Punching power should be about equal. Depends a lot on who wins the battle of jabs.

[lefthook31]

You always have to look at a few branches away from the trunk of the tree. With fighters, you look at styles they didn't match with. There's a reason.Or if they did fight a style, did they avoid it in the future?

Punchers pre - title Bowe; Morrison. Mercer. Lennox. Bruno. Mason. Ruddock. Old guys like Smith or Witherspoon or Snipes possibly.

There also wasn't much talk of a Tubbs rematch was there? Or other slick types like Mike Hunter.

Most likely, from what approach we saw with the bowe management team---which he can fire by the way so it isn't exactly a lifetime agreement--was a match with another easy to hit guy. Like say Alex Stewart. James Pritchard. Those type guys.

And Hide was a cruiser that moved up to heavy. He wasn't a heavy very long prior to the Bowe fight. I don't know if you followed the sport closely or not at the time, but the consensus was Gonzalez would lose as soon as they put him in with a live body.
:-(