Liston's resume and ranking

[Mendoza]

Liston to me is a tough fighter to place. His resume isn't very deep, and he only made one title defense. On the other hand he looks very good in some filmed fights.

[turpinr]

he's in my top 10.his wins over cleveland williams,eddie machen ,zora folley and nino valdez were good enough for me.

[Quitali Bitchko]

Not in my top 10. Ali, Louis, Marciano, Holmes, Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson, Dempsey, Foreman, Johnson, Fraizer all have better resumesm and thats 11 fighters right there. Liston is in my top 15 but not top 10. Maybe #12.

He only made 1 (!!!!) sucsesfull title deffense, never won the tittle after lossing it, didnt beat any ATG worthy of mention (unless if we count Patterson, wich I dont). This is not top10 material. :nono

[RockyJim]

And the fact that as champion...he QUIT WHILE SITTING ON HIS STOOL in his first fight against Ali in Miami in Feb.1964..and the KO loss in 1965 up in Maine to Ali's "Phantom" punch has to be taken into consideration also when deciding where to rank Sonny...

[Muchmoore]

There probably isn't a fighter in history and certainly not more than 1 that would of had more than one defense had there second defense been against a 64 Clay. Faulting Liston so much for failing to beat the greatest of all time is a laughable position to take.

I rank Liston as a borderline top 5 HW. Machen, Folley, Williams, and Patterson are very good wins and he has a nice group of second tier wins in DeJohn, Bethea, Valdes, Clark, Wepner, Harris, Whitehurst.

Under rated resume, although most of the knowledgable posters here on Classic give him his due :good

[junior-soprano]

well sonny fought whoever there was to fight. and if patterson hadn't ducked him he'd be champ earlier.
i rate him at nr. 4. what counts a lot for me is that i believe h2h sonny would beat ALMOST every other champ.

[TommyV]

There probably isn't a fighter in history and certainly not more than 1 that would of had more than one defense had there second defense been against a 64 Clay. Faulting Liston so much for failing to beat the greatest of all time is a laughable position to take.

This is exactly what it comes down to, an excellent point MM. You can't fault him for the lack of defenses when he had to fight the #1 HW of all-time. Liston shouldn't be penalized for finding himself in such an unfortunate positions. He's still got a very solid resumé, and his jab, reach, skills and power makes him a handful for anybody H2H.

[Unforgiven]

Eddie Machen, Zora Folley and Floyd Patterson were classy fighters, and good wins for Liston.

Cleveland Williams was a dangerous puncher, and fast, but he wasn't a real proven contender. He'd been matched with low-grade opponents most of the time.
Liston looks impressive in the Williams fights admittedly.

An old Nino Valdes, Mike DeJohn, Wayne Bethea were nothing special, overall.

Cassius Clay had struggled with Henry Cooper and Doug Jones in his two previous outings going in to the Liston fight, so it's hard to argue that Liston should be excused because Clay was "The Greatest". Even if Clay improved two-fold for Liston. There are a multitude of theories and opinions on those fights, but I think it's hard to argue against the assertion that Liston's efforts/performance in both fights left a lot to be desired. The best theory that can be offered in his defence is that HE QUIT AGAINST A GREAT FIGHTER, and to me that's nothing to be proud of. It's not as if he was getting killed out there.

Where he rates against other historical heavyweights is a difficult matter though. You'd have to study them all closely and with due objectivity and find where you feel he should go.
I try to stay away from lists.

[turpinr]

Not in my top 10. Ali, Louis, Marciano, Holmes, Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson, Dempsey, Foreman, Johnson, Fraizer all have better resumesm and thats 11 fighters right there. Liston is in my top 15 but not top 10. Maybe #12.

He only made 1 (!!!!) sucsesfull title deffense, never won the tittle after lossing it, didnt beat any ATG worthy of mention (unless if we count Patterson, wich I dont). This is not top10 material. :nonoin a fight versus sonny ,imo, marciano and dempsey would be lucky to see the second round.
resume's can't punch:huh

[Bummy Davis]

The 2 losses to Ali and the way he handled them hurt him as far as I am concerned. His wins over Patterson were solid and he had good wins over Clevland Big Cat Williams but I feel they are overated and Big Cat was KO'd by Satterfield in 3 pror to the Liston fights. You have to look at the Ali fights like they were legit and the 2nd fight was a dive if there was ever a dive. Why? I dont think we will ever really know. Liston was one of the scariest looking fighters to ever enter the ring and I think he would have been a problem for a lot of Heavys but to rate him high in the top 10...I would have to say... based on what?

[Unforgiven]

I guess where you rank Sonny Liston will depend largely on where you rank Floyd Patterson.

[Bummy Davis]

in a fight versus sonny ,imo, marciano and dempsey would be lucky to see the second round.
resume's can't punch:huh


Dont know so much about that. A fighter with heart and the ability and will to punch back often discourages the bully type. I remember no one giving Holyfield a chance vs Mike Tyson but heart,will and the abilty to hit back discouraged Tyson. Liston showed the mental weakness against Ali and we can not be too sure that it would not have happened vs a fighter with heart that came to wwin and hit back to bad intent.

[Quitali Bitchko]

in a fight versus sonny ,imo, marciano and dempsey would be lucky to see the second round.
resume's can't punch:huh

Well we are discussing resumes here, not H2H fantasy matchups, or am I wrong? :huh

[Sweet Pea]

Well we are discussing resumes here, not H2H fantasy matchups, or am I wrong? :huhThe discussion is on his all time placing at the weight as a fighter, not the all time placing of his resume. And your statement regarding his resume in comparison to guys like Tyson and Dempsey was a ways off in my estimation as well.

[McGrain]

Top 5 ya'll.

[hhascup]

Sonny should have been Champ several years before he did. Most of the Heavyweights that fought back then that I know, rate him very high. I also rate him in my top 10 as well.

[Tin_Ribs]

Top 5 ya'll.

You like Liston don't you McGrain? :D Good to see people making a case for him in the top 5, even if it isn't set in stone. His pre-title record was really good though and we all know he should have been champion sooner in an ideal world.

Ali aside, he matches up well with any other heavy in history in a head to head sense IMO. I can't think of anyone who I'd favour over him clearly, ie. more than a 50- 60% shot, other than Ali.

[McGrain]

I don't know about his being champion several years before he did...he could have fought for the title much earlier than he did, definitely, but he wasn't flat out in the box seat until he'd beaten Machen. Patterson, at that time, was involved with his epic trilogy with the Swede, so OK, nobody should criticise him for that. Liston can really take umbridge at not getting the shot late in '61, but little more.

[McGrain]

I can't think of anyone who I'd favour over him clearly, ie. more than a 50- 60% shot, other than Ali.


That's how I see it.

[My2Sense]

Eddie Machen, Zora Folley and Floyd Patterson were classy fighters, and good wins for Liston.


Good wins, but not necessarily great ones. All of those fighters had already had their limitations exposed, and none of them were considered particularly durable - even Patterson was always a heavily criticized and vulnerable champion.


Cassius Clay had struggled with Henry Cooper and Doug Jones in his two previous outings going in to the Liston fight, so it's hard to argue that Liston should be excused because Clay was "The Greatest". Even if Clay improved two-fold for Liston. There are a multitude of theories and opinions on those fights, but I think it's hard to argue against the assertion that Liston's efforts/performance in both fights left a lot to be desired. The best theory that can be offered in his defence is that HE QUIT AGAINST A GREAT FIGHTER, and to me that's nothing to be proud of. It's not as if he was getting killed out there.


Exactly the point I've always made. People try to downplay the embarrassment of those losses by pointing to Ali's subsequent achievements, but the fact still is he was not yet at his peak and showed a lot of vulnerabilities at that stage of his career.


Personally, I don't see a case for putting Liston in the all time top 10. He had a relatively brief run at the top (from the Roy Harris fight to the 2nd Patterson fight, a span of about 7 fights), he yielded his title far too easily, he made no effort to regain it, and never did anything of note afterward.

[Quitali Bitchko]

And your statement regarding his resume in comparison to guys like Tyson and Dempsey was a ways off in my estimation as well.

So please explain how Liston has a better resume then Dempsey or better yet Tyson. :huh

[Unforgiven]

Good wins, but not necessarily great ones. All of those fighters had already had their limitations exposed, and none of them were considered particularly durable - even Patterson was always a heavily criticized and vulnerable champion.


Agreed.
And Sonny wasn't even particularly impressive in beating Machen.
Johansson had slaughtered Eddie in 1 round.

[Sweet Pea]

So please explain how Liston has a better resume then Dempsey or better yet Tyson. :huhWilliams, Valdes, Machen, and Folley were as good or better than pretty much any HW Tyson ever beat, and those were all pre-title shot wins for Liston. Throw in his double destruction of Floyd Patterson for added measure and I think it's pretty clear.

With Dempsey it has more to do with the fact that the majority of his better wins were smaller fighters, LHW's and the like, and the fact that he even managed to get beat (twice) by one of them. He's more stacked than either, though.

[Tin_Ribs]

Agreed.
And Sonny wasn't even particularly impressive in beating Machen.
Johansson had slaughtered Eddie in 1 round.

I thought Sonny did a fair job of tackling a good stylistic foil in Machen to be honest. And Ingo wouldn't have repeated that job on Machen if they'd fought another dozen times.

[Unforgiven]

I thought Sonny did a fair job of tackling a good stylistic foil in Machen to be honest.

He did okay. Not particularly good, not particularly bad.



And Ingo wouldn't have repeated that job on Machen if they'd fought another dozen times.


Probably not like that.
But we can only judge them on what they did. Johansson may have knocked him out again brutally, probably not in 1 round though.

We can just as easily say Machen BEATS Liston if they fight more times. In fact we are more justified in saying so regarding Machen and Liston than Machen and Johansson.
Anyway, I prefer to stick to what happened, not hypotheticals and speculation.

[Unforgiven]

Williams, Valdes, Machen, and Folley were as good or better than pretty much any HW Tyson ever beat, and those were all pre-title shot wins for Liston.

Valdes had been KO'd by Charley Powell and outpointed by Alonzo Johnson in the 5 months prior to facing Liston. So that's pure bullshit to say he's as good as or better than ANYONE Tyson ever beat. In my opinion. Pure nonsense.

Williams had never beaten a ranked contender.

[Quitali Bitchko]

Williams, Valdes, Machen, and Folley were as good or better than pretty much any HW Tyson ever beat, and those were all pre-title shot wins for Liston. Throw in his double destruction of Floyd Patterson for added measure and I think it's pretty clear.
.

Well Tyson is the youngest champion ever, he did defend his title 9 times sucesfully, he did unify the titles wich Holmes failed to do since 1978, he is the only man to unify it by beating 3 different champions and he did beat an ATG although past his prime. Holmes win I consider to be better then Liston's Patterson win. Holmes went on to fight for 14 years beating top contenders. Tyson also won the title the second time after over 4 years of inactivity, most of it spent in prison.
I think its pretty clear Tyson has the better resume. Of course Tyson has his negatives, but so does Liston. Im too tired to elaborate on those, feel free to do so, however In the end I think Tyson clearly takes this one.

[Tin_Ribs]

He did okay. Not particularly good, not particularly bad.




Probably not like that.
But we can only judge them on what they did. Johansson may have knocked him out again brutally, probably not in 1 round though.

We can just as easily say Machen BEATS Liston if they fight more times. In fact we are more justified in saying so regarding Machen and Liston than Machen and Johansson.
Anyway, I prefer to stick to what happened, not hypotheticals and speculation.

Granted, but you know what I'm saying. Machen was a world class fighter who, on the night he fought Sonny, executed a good strategy and fought to the best of his ability. At least to my recollection; I've not seen that fight for some time. Machen would have beaten a lot of other fighters on that form.

Sure, we can hypothesize about Machen-Ingo, but you missed the point a bit. You can't use the fact that Machen got coldcocked by Johansson against Liston, it doesn't add up. He got caught by surprise against a huge puncher and couldn't recover, something very uncharacteristic of his overall career. Would you diminish Monzon beating Griffith in 14 on account of the fact that Carter beat him in one?

[Quitali Bitchko]

Valdes had been KO'd by Charley Powell and outpointed by Alonzo Johnson in the 5 months prior to facing Liston. So that's pure bullshit to say he's as good as or better than ANYONE Tyson ever beat. In my opinion. Pure nonsense.

Williams had never beaten a ranked contender.

True. And Spinks on Tysons record looks better then all those fighters, no matter the ˙˙fear factor˙˙. He handed Holmes his first defeat (and then second) and was undefeated himself. I think names like Tucker, Thomas, Holmes, Spinks, Tubbs, Williams etc look better then anything on Listons resume (Minus Patterson who isnt a bigger achivement then Tysons destrucion of Holmes and Spinks imo). Im also willing to debate the fighters Tyson fought were better then those of Liston. Bigger, more athletic, more skilled with slightly to quite clearly better records as well.

[Mendoza]

Valdes had been KO'd by Charley Powell and outpointed by Alonzo Johnson in the 5 months prior to facing Liston. So that's pure bullshit to say he's as good as or better than ANYONE Tyson ever beat. In my opinion. Pure nonsense.

Williams had never beaten a ranked contender.

Williams Ko'd Ernie Terrell in 1962. I'm not sure if Terell was ranked then our not.

Liston is tough to peg. His resume is not as good as most or perhaps all the fighters in a consensus top ten, yet he's a destroyer in some filmed fights.

I have him in my top ten.

[Muchmoore]

We can just as easily say Machen BEATS Liston if they fight more times. In fact we are more justified in saying so regarding Machen and Liston than Machen and Johansson.


No we're not. 1st round knockouts over world class opponents (especially the durable Machen) are pretty rare and not likely to be repeated.

Liston proved over the distance he was the better fighter. Full credit to Ingo, but Machen had no idea he was in there with one of the best right hand punchers in history. He'd certainly know in a rematch.

[Tin_Ribs]

No we're not. 1st round knockouts over world class opponents (especially the durable Machen) are pretty rare and not likely to be repeated.

Liston proved over the distance he was the better fighter. Full credit to Ingo, but Machen had no idea he was in there with one of the best right hand punchers in history. He'd certainly know in a rematch.

:cool:

[ChrisPontius]

Good wins, but not necessarily great ones. All of those fighters had already had their limitations exposed, and none of them were considered particularly durable - even Patterson was always a heavily criticized and vulnerable champion.


Exactly the point I've always made. People try to downplay the embarrassment of those losses by pointing to Ali's subsequent achievements, but the fact still is he was not yet at his peak and showed a lot of vulnerabilities at that stage of his career.


Personally, I don't see a case for putting Liston in the all time top 10. He had a relatively brief run at the top (from the Roy Harris fight to the 2nd Patterson fight, a span of about 7 fights), he yielded his title far too easily, he made no effort to regain it, and never did anything of note afterward.

A bit of a harsh assessment, although i agree to a large degree. But regardless of being (rightfully?) considered a weak champion, blowing Patterson out in a single round, twice, is a great accomplishment.

But like you said: Williams only beat one contender (Terrel), and i'm not 100% sure of that. He [Cleveland] wasn't ranked in the annual ratings either time when him and Liston fought, and for good reason: he hadn't beaten any major contenders. Valdes was old and past it, if not shot. Machen is probably his second best win, a good one, but not that much of an impressive performance. Harris and DeJohn were mediocre.

He looked pretty horrible against Besmanoff also, and King had him reeling all over the ring. He had good boxing skills, but mostly got by on his size/strength/power advantage in addition to those skills. I think a guy like Lewis might just destroy him, though that's hard to estimate. But he looks very slow to me, despite not really being THAT big at 210lbs and 6 feet.


I do rank him in the top10, the lower end of it. His resume compares well to someone like Dempsey.

[Unforgiven]

Granted, but you know what I'm saying. Machen was a world class fighter who, on the night he fought Sonny, executed a good strategy and fought to the best of his ability. At least to my recollection; I've not seen that fight for some time. Machen would have beaten a lot of other fighters on that form.

Sure, we can hypothesize about Machen-Ingo, but you missed the point a bit. You can't use the fact that Machen got coldcocked by Johansson against Liston, it doesn't add up. He got caught by surprise against a huge puncher and couldn't recover, something very uncharacteristic of his overall career.

Liston's win over Machen is one of very few results he has over real quality opponents though, so the merits of it do need to be scrutinized a bit.
The fact that Machen was proved stoppable by Johansson is relevant too.
Also, Machen was outpointed over 12 rounds by Zora Folley just eight months before Liston did it too.
To Liston's credit, he battered Folley around that time too.

I just think the Machen performance/result is so-so, all things considered.


Would you diminish Monzon beating Griffith in 14 on account of the fact that Carter beat him in one?


No.

[Unforgiven]

Williams Ko'd Ernie Terrell in 1962. I'm not sure if Terell was ranked then our not.


True. I do doubt Terrell can be called a top contender at that time though, and anyway prior to the Liston fights, Williams credentials against top-quality foes is very weak, non-existent . That's the point.

[Unforgiven]

No we're not. 1st round knockouts over world class opponents (especially the durable Machen) are pretty rare and not likely to be repeated.

Liston proved over the distance he was the better fighter. Full credit to Ingo, but Machen had no idea he was in there with one of the best right hand punchers in history. He'd certainly know in a rematch.

I dont buy this.
If the results were reversed and Liston had a 1st round brutal KO over Machen, and Johansson a 12-round points win, I'm sure you'd be saying Liston murders Machen every time. And his win is worth more than Johansson's.

[Muchmoore]

I dont buy this.
If the results were reversed and Liston had a 1st round brutal KO over Machen, and Johansson a 12-round points win, I'm sure you'd be saying Liston murders Machen every time. And his win is worth more than Johansson's.

Do you buy that Machen would fight much smarter against Ingo in a rematch?
He didn't know what he was up against when he fought the previously untested and unknown Ingo. Against Liston, he knew exactly what he was up against and fought accordingly but was still soundly beaten.

I don't see him catching the Machen that fought carefully against Liston.

[Unforgiven]

Do you buy that Machen would fight much smarter against Ingo in a rematch?

Well, he ought to.:lol:


He didn't know what he was up against when he fought the previously untested and unknown Ingo. Against Liston, he knew exactly what he was up against and fought accordingly but was still soundly beaten.


Well, you never really know what you're up against until the bell rings. Machen wanted a rematch with Liston and was confident he's beat him so he must have figured he knew more after the 12 rounds than before.
I mean, there's always the "If I could do it again, I'd do x, y and z differently ........" alibi.

I doubt Johansson had much real knowledge of Machen's style going in to their fight either.
And Machen must have fought several unknowns before.

I don't see him catching the Machen that fought carefully against Liston.

Maybe not. But the flipside to that whole argument, is that Liston was well-aware that Machen could be KO'd, and brutally, as Johansson had shown, yet failed to do anything similar.

[PetethePrince]

Well we are discussing resumes here, not H2H fantasy matchups, or am I wrong? :huh

We should be but people over-factor this in. Thus Liston is a top 3 HW for some people here. A little astonishing I know.

[PetethePrince]

He should probably be on your top 10 list, but he doesn't have to. He's not a top 3 nor even a top 5 HW of all time under a good criteria that factors accomplishments/resumes way more than H2H. He may be a beast H2H, but it doesn't belong to be ranked ahead of Ali, Louis, Marciano, Foreman, Frazier, or even Holmes.

[Mendoza]

True. I do doubt Terrell can be called a top contender at that time though, and anyway prior to the Liston fights, Williams credentials against top-quality foes is very weak, non-existent . That's the point.

Williams also got a draw vs Machen. Never saw or read the write up in that one.

[Unforgiven]

Williams also got a draw vs Machen. Never saw or read the write up in that one.

Williams was a good fighter. Very good. I think I read that some people thought his second fight with Terrell was a bum decision too, but I might be mistaken.

But he still wasn't established as a proven contender at the time of the Liston fights. That tempers the significance of those wins somewhat, surely.

[Bummy Davis]

Williams, Valdes, Machen, and Folley were as good or better than pretty much any HW Tyson ever beat, and those were all pre-title shot wins for Liston. Throw in his double destruction of Floyd Patterson for added measure and I think it's pretty clear.

With Dempsey it has more to do with the fact that the majority of his better wins were smaller fighters, LHW's and the like, and the fact that he even managed to get beat (twice) by one of them. He's more stacked than either, though.


Valdez was stopped and beaten and dropped before he fought Liston and 31-1 Williams was KO'd in 3 by 174lb Bob Satterfield, Machen was KO'd in 1 by Ingo and Foley was stopped and dropped 4 times by 12-1 Alejandro Lavorante and Ko'd by Doug Jones and outpointed by Henry Cooper... How do these guys exceed Razor Rudduck,Pinklon Thomas,Tony Tucker and Michael Spinks to name a few

[My2Sense]

Valdes had been KO'd by Charley Powell and outpointed by Alonzo Johnson in the 5 months prior to facing Liston. So that's pure bullshit to say he's as good as or better than ANYONE Tyson ever beat.


Agreed.

Valdes was done as a serious contender after getting beaten up by Powell (and in reality, was already past his peak even before that). He was merely a washed up EX-contender when he fought Liston. That was not among Liston's more significant wins.

[My2Sense]

Williams was a good fighter. Very good. I think I read that some people thought his second fight with Terrell was a bum decision too, but I might be mistaken.

But he still wasn't established as a proven contender at the time of the Liston fights. That tempers the significance of those wins somewhat, surely.

Williams was a big puncher, but otherwise fairly limited; and much like Liston's other "name" victims, his durability was suspect as well.

At the time he fought Liston, he was rated as only a fringe contender at best. In truth, none of Liston's opponents pre-Harris were considered top level contenders.

[KTFO]

Liston's myth pre-Ali based on his walk-in-the-park-wins against a glass-chinned Patterson, that's all.

[Unforgiven]

Agreed.

Valdes was done as a serious contender after getting beaten up by Powell (and in reality, was already past his peak even before that). He was merely a washed up EX-contender when he fought Liston. That was not among Liston's more significant wins.

On the subject, I've read a newspaper report that states THE RING magazine dropped Valdes from #2 in the heavyweights ratings to #6, following his loss to Charley Powell. At they entered Powell at #9 ! Which seems unfair to me, and is just one of many examples of why I dont put much stock in THE RING ratings.

Two fights later Valdes was outpointed by Alonzo Johnson, just 7 weeks before his fight with Liston. Valdes was 34 years old and his current form was not that of a top contender, by any stretch of the imagination.

[bodhi]

in a fight versus sonny ,imo, marciano and dempsey would be lucky to see the second round.
resume's can't punch:huh

Resumes > speculation.

[Unforgiven]

Williams was a big puncher, but otherwise fairly limited; and much like Liston's other "name" victims, his durability was suspect as well.

At the time he fought Liston, he was rated as only a fringe contender at best. In truth, none of Liston's opponents pre-Harris were considered top level contenders.

I think Cleveland Williams had good hand speed and was an accurate puncher as well as a hard one. His biggest limitation was his suspect durability, I reckon.

I agree, he was a fringe contender going in to the Liston fights, lacked top level experience, and his efforts in both fights didn't warrant him being anything more than a fringe contender on exiting the ring either. He could dish it out pretty good, but couldn't take it (though many wouldn't be able to take it from Liston).
Overall though, looking at his career, and strengths and weaknesses, Williams was a good fighter. And established himself with the draw against Machen and the two fights with Terrell as a serious contender in '62 -'64.

[bodhi]

I guess where you rank Sonny Liston will depend largely on where you rank Floyd Patterson.

Yep, and personally I rate Floyd pretty high. Solid in the Top20 without a doubt. The youngest hw champ and the first two time hw champ are great achievements. Add his more than solid resume, especially after he lost the title, his longevity, that he fought and was competative while beeing long past his best, his ability to change his style when he had to ... great and due to his KO losses vastly underated fighter :good

[Unforgiven]

Yep, and personally I rate Floyd pretty high. Solid in the Top20 without a doubt. The youngest hw champ and the first two time hw champ are great achievements. Add his more than solid resume, especially after he lost the title, his longevity, that he fought and was competative while beeing long past his best, his ability to change his style when he had to ... great and due to his KO losses vastly underated fighter :good


:good
Yeah, I think Floyd Patterson was pretty good.
And Liston dismantled him ridiculously easily. I think Liston's arguably deserving of a very high ranking on account of that and his few other significant wins.

I do think people try to stretch Liston's resume/credentials a bit too much though, unnecessarily. And I dont buy into the "Ali was the Greatest" alibi (for Liston's crappy efforts in those two fights) either.

[bodhi]

Well Tyson is the youngest champion ever, he did defend his title 9 times sucesfully, he did unify the titles wich Holmes failed to do since 1978, he is the only man to unify it by beating 3 different champions and he did beat an ATG although past his prime. Holmes win I consider to be better then Liston's Patterson win. Holmes went on to fight for 14 years beating top contenders. Tyson also won the title the second time after over 4 years of inactivity, most of it spent in prison.
I think its pretty clear Tyson has the better resume. Of course Tyson has his negatives, but so does Liston. Im too tired to elaborate on those, feel free to do so, however In the end I think Tyson clearly takes this one.

I disagree here. The Holmes Tyson fought wasn´t the same Holmes who later would fight again. He was just in there as a slaughter pig. Just for the money. He wasn´t in the ring for a few years, came of two losses and was not training for years. He also hadn´t that much train for years. I don´t think the Holmes win is better than Liston´s Patterson wins.

[bodhi]

Liston's myth pre-Ali based on his walk-in-the-park-wins against a glass-chinned Patterson, that's all.

Tyson was KOed as often as Patterson. Is he glass jawed too? Patterson had no glass jaw. This is so exagerated. He got knocked down often but most of these knockdowns were due to him beeing offbalance due to his style. Nearly every tiem he got up and beat his opponent. That´s not beeing glassjawed. :bart

[turpinr]

Resumes > speculation.if you don't speculate how do you come to an opinion.
as for resumes,which at their peak genuine heavyweight contenders did dempsey and marciano beat

[TheGreatA]

You could make the case that Williams was unlucky not to get the decisions against Machen and Terrell the second time. I might be wrong but I believe the newspapers scored those fights for Williams.

From BoxRec:

"Ernie Terrell, 198 1/2, fighting with a cut over his right eye, upset No. 4 ranked heavyweight contender Cleveland Williams, 210, Saturday night in a 10 round nationally televised bout at the Arena. Terrell won by a split decision. Terrell started off fast, winning the first two rounds. His best punch was his left jab which kept Williams off balance. Williams rallied strong in the 3rd round and stunned Terrell with a left hook which referee Pete Tomasco ruled a slip. After an even 4th round, Williams scored heavily in the 5th and opened the cut over Terrell's right eye. In the 6th, Terrell peppered Williams' right eye, and although it was not cut, it was so swollen he could hardly see out of it. Terrell rallied in the 9th which apparently won him the fight. He scored with a series of close combination punches. Williams won the 10th round over a tiring Terrell, who was physically exhausted at the end." - Associated Press


Unofficial AP scorecard - 46-45 Williams

The judges' scorecards:

Jack Styles ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) 44-46 Terrell
Pete Pantaleo ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) 46-44 Williams
Pete Tomasco ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) 44-46 Terrell

A third bout between Ernie Terrell and Cleveland Williams was scheduled for the WBA version of the heavyweight title when Williams was shot. Machen instead was given the chance.

Liston to me is a definite top 10 or top 15 fighter. For those who criticize his opposition, who should he have fought? An ancient Ezzard Charles? A returning Rocky Marciano? Ingemar Johansson who retired instead of fighting Liston?

[bodhi]

:good
Yeah, I think Floyd Patterson was pretty good.
And Liston dismantled him ridiculously easily. I think Liston's arguably deserving of a very high ranking on account of that and his few other significant wins.

I do think people try to stretch Liston's resume/credentials a bit too much though, unnecessarily. And I dont buy into the "Ali was the Greatest" alibi (for Liston's crappy efforts in those two fights) either.

I agree with you. I rate Liston in the group who ranks between 8 and 11 at hw, alongside Frazier, Foreman and Holyfield, just a tad ahead of Tyson, Dempsey, Wills and Langford.

[bodhi]

if you don't speculate how do you come to an opinion.
as for resumes,which at their peak genuine heavyweight contenders did dempsey and marciano beat

By going with the facts we know. And that´s largely resume, achievements, longevity, dominance. After you have a ranking, personally I prefer a tier-system, by these standards than you can factor in ability and intangibles. At least that´s how I do it.

[turpinr]

By going with the facts we know. And that´s largely resume, achievements, longevity, dominance. After you have a ranking, personally I prefer a tier-system, by these standards than you can factor in ability and intangibles. At least that´s how I do it.somebody in one of the above posts mentioned the "fear factor" which you can't see in a fighters resume.

[Unforgiven]

Liston to me is a definite top 10 or top 15 fighter. For those who criticize his opposition,

I think a lot of people are "criticizing his opposition" only really to counter the way the quality and quantity of his opposition is built up by some who feel they need to build it up to justify a high ranking.
I think it's unnecessary to do so.

For those who criticize his opposition, who should he have fought?

Well, he should have fought Cassius Clay, for starters. :D

[TheGreatA]

I think a lot of people are "criticizing his opposition" only really to counter the way the quality and quantity of his opposition is built up by some who feel they need to build it up to justify a high ranking.
I think it's unnecessary to do so.



Well, he should have fought Cassius Clay, for starters. :D

He fought him enough to make Mr. Clay want to quit after a couple of rounds. :good

I agree his opposition shouldn't be built up but it has also been taken apart equally as bad from what I've seen. Liston fought the best contenders around who could very well have been champions/title holders if not for Liston beating them and Patterson not fighting them. There weren't 3 or 4 title belts around either, just one. I've been more impressed watching films of Machen, Folley and Williams than of the many contenders other heavyweight champions fought.

[bodhi]

somebody in one of the above posts mentioned the "fear factor" which you can't see in a fighters resume.

Yeah, that would be one of the intagibles which you could include late on what I was talking about. But those are only minor factors imho.

[Quitali Bitchko]

I disagree here. The Holmes Tyson fought wasn´t the same Holmes who later would fight again. He was just in there as a slaughter pig. Just for the money. He wasn´t in the ring for a few years, came of two losses and was not training for years. He also hadn´t that much train for years. I don´t think the Holmes win is better than Liston´s Patterson wins.

Less then two years not a few years. And as he said at his age the time off might be better then being active. Hell, he was inactive for over 3 years after Tyson and came back to win againts Mercer a good 4 years after Tyson, then going 12 with Holyfield (winning 4 in my book too) and damn nearly beat McCall (who was just comming of a big win againts LL) in 1995. I didnt see Holmes any worse in those fights than againts Tyson. Againts Tyson, Holmes simply had a stupid idea of wearing Tyson down to the later rounds, but he couldnt help himself and started doing his thing in the 4th round, popping the jab, showing off as usual, and he got nailed - no surprise there. Yes, Holmes was past his prime and in his older years but I think Tyson should be given more credit for a complete destruction of Holmes given that Holmes fought for 14 more years and never got close to being destroyed in the same fashion.

[turpinr]

Yeah, that would be one of the intagibles which you could include late on what I was talking about. But those are only minor factors imho.michael spinks would disagree:lol:

[Unforgiven]

He fought him enough to make Mr. Clay want to quit after a couple of rounds. :good

Or ...... something got in Clay's eyes.
Liston's efforts in the Clay/Ali fights were poor.


I agree his opposition shouldn't be built up but it has also been taken apart equally as bad from what I've seen. Liston fought the best contenders around who could very well have been champions/title holders if not for Liston beating them and Patterson not fighting them. There weren't 3 or 4 title belts around either, just one. I've been more impressed watching films of Machen, Folley and Williams than of the many contenders other heavyweight champions fought.

They were good fighters. I agree.

[bodhi]

michael spinks would disagree:lol:

He may, he may not. What has this to do with ranking a fighter?

[bodhi]

Less then two years not a few years. And as he said at his age the time off might be better then being active. Hell, he was inactive for over 3 years after Tyson and came back to win againts Mercer a good 4 years after Tyson, then going 12 with Holyfield (winning 4 in my book too) and damn nearly beat McCall (who was just comming of a big win againts LL) in 1995. I didnt see Holmes any worse in those fights than againts Tyson. Againts Tyson, Holmes simply had a stupid idea of wearing Tyson down to the later rounds, but he couldnt help himself and started doing his thing in the 4th round, popping the jab, showing off as usual, and he got nailed - no surprise there. Yes, Holmes was past his prime and in his older years but I think Tyson should be given more credit for a complete destruction of Holmes given that Holmes fought for 14 more years and never got close to being destroyed in the same fashion.

Well, I was a bit harsh and exagerated a bit but that was due to you exagerating it to the other side. The truth is somewhere in the middle I think.

[TheGreatA]

Or ...... something got in Clay's eyes.
Liston's efforts in the Clay/Ali fights were poor.


They were good fighters. I agree.

I thought the first fight was a fair effort by Liston for 6 rounds but the ending obviously took away from that performance. The second fight was what it was.

This was a pretty good fight in my opinion:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Unforgiven]

I thought the first fight was a fair effort by Liston for 6 rounds but the ending obviously took away from that performance. The second fight was what it was.

This was a pretty good fight in my opinion:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

I had Liston winning 3 of the 6 rounds.
But that's all the more reason to condemn him for the way he surrendered so lamely. Maybe he had a bad shoulder. Maybe there was some sort of "fix". Maybe he just hadn't trained for the fight. But none of those reasons save him from the due judgment that his effort was very poor, a pathetic "defence" of the championship, whatever way you slice it.

[My2Sense]

I agree his opposition shouldn't be built up but it has also been taken apart equally as bad from what I've seen. Liston fought the best contenders around who could very well have been champions/title holders if not for Liston beating them and Patterson not fighting them.

I don't know about that. Machen got a chance to show what he could do with Patterson and he let Patterson walk all over him. Machen and Folley were good, solid technicians, but overall they weren't anything spectacular IMO. They did enough to hang around the rankings for some time, but their performances were often rather unimpressive/uninspiring.

Also, they weren't really "the best" contenders of that era; Johansson was.

[TheGreatA]

I don't know about that. Machen got a chance to show what he could do with Patterson and he let Patterson walk all over him. Machen and Folley were good, solid technicians, but overall they weren't anything spectacular IMO. They did enough to hang around the rankings for some time, but their performances were often rather unimpressive/uninspiring.

Also, they weren't really "the best" contenders of that era; Johansson was.

That was after Machen had already gone mental and threatened to kill himself.

I'm not saying Patterson couldn't have beaten them, I wouldn't favour any of them in a match-up against Floyd, but the fact is that he didn't fight them as the champ. He did find the time to fight the likes of Tom McNeeley, Pete Rademacher, Brian London, but not Zora Folley nor Eddie Machen (during his title reign).

Johansson didn't want any part of Liston. They were scheduled to fight in 1963, Johansson performed below expectations against London and retired.

[turpinr]

He may, he may not. What has this to do with ranking a fighter?
fear factor.his fight with tyson:good

[bodhi]

fear factor.his fight with tyson:good

Yeah but what has this to do if we rank fighters? How do you compare the "fear factor" of different fighters? Too much speculation for me.

[turpinr]

Yeah but what has this to do if we rank fighters? How do you compare the "fear factor" of different fighters? Too much speculation for me.you said fear factor was only a minor factor and i said michael spinks would disagree.:goodi also disagree that it only plays a minor role.

[Unforgiven]

What the hell is this "fear factor" you guys are going on about ??

[bodhi]

What the hell is this "fear factor" you guys are going on about ??

Well, Tyson made Spinks "freeze". That´s what he meant I suppose.

Personally, I don´t think this should influence a ranking and if only very slightly because it´s too much speculation and can´t be compared.

[bodhi]

you said fear factor was only a minor factor and i said michael spinks would disagree.:goodi also disagree that it only plays a minor role.

Okay, but explain me how do you compare it? It´s too much speculation.

[turpinr]

What the hell is this "fear factor" you guys are going on about ??
its the fear that fighters have of other fighters ie the fear a lot of mike tyson's opponents had of him.
reputations
by the way i ,personally dislike the word resume:lol:

[My2Sense]

That was after Machen had already gone mental and threatened to kill himself.

True, but also after Patterson had suffered crushing back-to-back first round KOs.


He did find the time to fight the likes of Tom McNeeley, Pete Rademacher, Brian London, but not Zora Folley nor Eddie Machen (during his title reign).

But he also found time to fight the guy who had blasted out Machen in 1 round - three times.


Johansson didn't want any part of Liston. They were scheduled to fight in 1963, Johansson performed below expectations against London and retired.

The fight had previously been on the table before Liston won the title, and Liston turned down a $100,000-plus guarantee to fight him in Sweden.

[turpinr]

Okay, but explain me how do you compare it? It´s too much speculation.
i've already given you examples of fighters who were more feared.louis and liston are two

when i boxed ,i always preferred to know next to nothing about my opponents,so i'd have less to fear.
it worked for me,even though i never ammounted to much:lol:

[ChrisPontius]

Given that Liston twice quit against a young, fragile looking loudmouth, i'm not sure whether taking his "fear factor" into account would be a good thing, at all.

He also seems to get a pass on blatantly cheating with that blinding stuff against Clay. Probably because of the embarrassing fashion in which he lost.

[turpinr]

The fight had previously been on the table before Liston won the title, and Liston turned down a $100,000-plus guarantee to fight him in Sweden.where've you read that ??

[turpinr]

Given that Liston twice quit against a young, fragile looking loudmouth, i'm not sure whether taking his "fear factor" into account would be a good thing, at all.

He also seems to get a pass on blatantly cheating with that blinding stuff against Clay. Probably because of the embarrassing fashion in which he lost.who was the young,fragile loudmouth ??
liston put plenty of fear into his opponents before he fought for the title.

[Unforgiven]

its the fear that fighters have of other fighters ie the fear a lot of mike tyson's opponents had of him.
reputations

I dont really rate it. It's based on too much speculation anyway.

Mike Tyson was great (to some extent) because he knocked out some good fighters, in my book. Not because someone was afraid of him.

by the way i ,personally dislike the word resume:lol:

Yeah, resume is gay.

[Unforgiven]

He also seems to get a pass on blatantly cheating with that blinding stuff against Clay. Probably because of the embarrassing fashion in which he lost.

It's not at all blatant or clear that he cheated at all. Purely another "tale" or rumour surrounding the fights.

[ChrisPontius]

It's not at all blatant or clear that he cheated at all. Purely another "tale" or rumour surrounding the fights.

Tell me how many fights in history show this? A guy being in comfortable control to constantly blinking and indicating that there's something in his eyes? And in the other corner, there's a guy with mob connections of whom there are rumors of earlier fixed fights (even in SI), who realizes he underestimated his opponent, needs help, then when that fails, he quits? You think that's a coincidence?

[turpinr]

I dont really rate it. It's based on too much speculation anyway.

Mike Tyson was great (to some extent) because he knocked out some good fighters, in my book. Not because someone was afraid of him.



Yeah, resume is gay.joe louis frightened a lot of his opponenents.max baer and king levinsky epecially.
levinsky had to be pushed into the ring kicking and screaming:lol:

[turpinr]

Tell me how many fights in history show this? A guy being in comfortable control to constantly blinking and indicating that there's something in his eyes? And in the other corner, there's a guy with mob connections of whom there are rumors of earlier fixed fights (even in SI), who realizes he underestimated his opponent, needs help, then when that fails, he quits? You think that's a coincidence?
mob connections aren't exactly rare, are they ??

[bodhi]

i've already given you examples of fighters who were more feared.louis and liston are two

But that´s not an explanation how you compare it. It´s just an individual thing if someone is intimidated by somebody or not. Personally, I think the Ali who punished Patterson for callim him Clay would intimidate me much more than Liston or Tyson - although all of them would intimidate me to tell the truth :lol:
It´s just too much speculation.


when i boxed ,i always preferred to know next to nothing about my opponents,so i'd have less to fear.
it worked for me,even though i never ammounted to much:lol:

Good for you :good

[Maxmomer]

I place him quite high as his resume does have some good names, in the same tier as Marciano, Frazier and Holmes, and I rate him in my top 5 all time H2H HW fighters. He posted two first round KO's over a prime top 20 ATG heavyweight. His two demolition jobs over Patterson are exceptionally impressive and are probably the most one sided destructions one prime ATG heavy has over another.

[turpinr]

But that´s not an explanation how you compare it. It´s just an individual thing if someone is intimidated by somebody or not. Personally, I think the Ali who punished Patterson for callim him Clay would intimidate me much more than Liston or Tyson - although all of them would intimidate me to tell the truth :lol:
It´s just too much speculation.



Good for you :good:lol:yes.they'd intimidate me too.:lol:

[McGrain]

The fight had previously been on the table before Liston won the title, and Liston turned down a $100,000-plus guarantee to fight him in Sweden.

Johansson also made it pretty clear that he wanted no part of Liston in the US. Why would Sonny want to go to Sweden? There was money at home.

[bodhi]

Johansson also made it pretty clear that he wanted no part of Liston in the US. Why would Sonny want to go to Sweden? There was money at home.

Why would Johannson go to the states when there is money in Sweden?

Perhaps that´s where he finds the best opponents? Well, the best possible opponent, aside from Floyd, for Liston was in Sweden, so why not go there and beat him on his home turf when the money is right?

[McGrain]

Tell me how many fights in history show this? A guy being in comfortable control to constantly blinking and indicating that there's something in his eyes? And in the other corner, there's a guy with mob connections of whom there are rumors of earlier fixed fights (even in SI), who realizes he underestimated his opponent, needs help, then when that fails, he quits? You think that's a coincidence?

I think Liston's deliberately trying to blind Ali is about as likely as Walcott's deliberately trying to blind Marciano. Not very. I think it was an accident, personally.

[McGrain]

Why would Johannson go to the states when there is money in Sweden?


To win the world heavyweight title.

[Unforgiven]

Tell me how many fights in history show this? A guy being in comfortable control to constantly blinking and indicating that there's something in his eyes? And in the other corner, there's a guy with mob connections of whom there are rumors of earlier fixed fights (even in SI), who realizes he underestimated his opponent, needs help, then when that fails, he quits? You think that's a coincidence?

It amounts to speculation. If you want to quote SI I think their report thought it was Angelo Dundee's sponge or Liston's ointment for his cuts that seemed to cause the distress.

The "how many fights in history" reasoning can be used anyway you want. How many fights in history did a world heavyweight champion with "mob connections" quit with such a poor excuse and after such a mild "beating" and level on points against a 7-1 undedog ?
There you are, PROOF of a FIX.

Speculation, and rumour, that's all you provide.

"Mob connections" is just another sensationalist phrase that doesn't convince me at all. It's not as if you need to be connected to serious criminals to cheat in that way, or that being free from mob connections automatically makes the cornermen more reliable.

Bobby Czyz was "blinded" by Holyfield, that was his excuse for quitting. Chris Byrd complained after one of his fights (Golota?) that he'd had stinging eyes from something on his opponent. Rocky Marciano was blinking distressed against Walcott with something in his eyes, and blamed Walcott's corner for deliberately trying to blind him.
Maybe. But maybe there are many innocent ways a fighter can have that happen to him with all that hectic stuff going on in 1-minute intervals, with buckets, sponge, water, ointments, injuries etc.

[McGrain]

I think it's definitely true that Liston's detractors tend to leap upon his mob connections when it suits but shake their heads an cry "speculation" when those connections are raised to explain certain things that don't fit their view (the Ali fights being fixed, for example).

[turpinr]

It amounts to speculation. If you want to quote SI I think their report thought it was Angelo Dundee's sponge or Liston's ointment for his cuts that seemed to cause the distress.

The "how many fights in history" reasoning can be used anyway you want. How many fights in history did a world heavyweight champion with "mob connections" quit with such a poor excuse and after such a mild "beating" and level on points against a 7-1 undedog ?
There you are, PROOF of a FIX.

Speculation, and rumour, that's all you provide.

"Mob connections" is just another sensationalist phrase that doesn't convince me at all. It's not as if you need to be connected to serious criminals to cheat in that way, or that being free from mob connections automatically makes the cornermen more reliable.

Bobby Czyz was "blinded" by Holyfield, that was his excuse for quitting. Chris Byrd complained after one of his fights (Golota?) that he'd had stinging eyes from something on his opponent. Rocky Marciano was blinking distressed against Walcott with something in his eyes, and blamed Walcott's corner for deliberately trying to blind him.
Maybe. But maybe there are many innocent ways a fighter can have that happen to him with all that hectic stuff going on in 1-minute intervals, with buckets, sponge, water, ointments, injuries etc.i'd rather believe the innocent bit :good

[Unforgiven]

joe louis frightened a lot of his opponenents.max baer and king levinsky epecially.
levinsky had to be pushed into the ring kicking and screaming:lol:

I dont know if that makes those victories any more (or any less) valued though.
I mean, Louis beat Levinsky up in 1 round round, and Baer within 4. That's the bottom line. It's not relevant to my ranking of Louis whether or not those two men were scared shitless or not though.

[bodhi]

I dont know if that makes those victories any more (or any less) valued though.
I mean, Louis beat Levinsky up in 1 round round, and Baer within 4. That's the bottom line. It's not relevant to my ranking of Louis whether or not those two men were scared shitless or not though.


When Baer was asked if he knows what fear is he answered: "Standing in the opposite corner of Joe Louis knowing that he wants to go home early."

:good

[ChrisPontius]

It amounts to speculation. If you want to quote SI I think their report thought it was Angelo Dundee's sponge or Liston's ointment for his cuts that seemed to cause the distress.

The "how many fights in history" reasoning can be used anyway you want. How many fights in history did a world heavyweight champion with "mob connections" quit with such a poor excuse and after such a mild "beating" and level on points against a 7-1 undedog ?
There you are, PROOF of a FIX.


There's a difference. Clay can clearly on film be seen to be blinded. You can't see on film that there's a fix - unless one goes down from a punch that didn't land. Which, of course, never happened.

And SI article i'm referring to, was before Clay (or Dundee) was even in the picture.


Speculation, and rumour, that's all you provide.

"Mob connections" is just another sensationalist phrase that doesn't convince me at all. It's not as if you need to be connected to serious criminals to cheat in that way, or that being free from mob connections automatically makes the cornermen more reliable.

Bobby Czyz was "blinded" by Holyfield, that was his excuse for quitting. Chris Byrd complained after one of his fights (Golota?) that he'd had stinging eyes from something on his opponent. Rocky Marciano was blinking distressed against Walcott with something in his eyes, and blamed Walcott's corner for deliberately trying to blind him.
Maybe. But maybe there are many innocent ways a fighter can have that happen to him with all that hectic stuff going on in 1-minute intervals, with buckets, sponge, water, ointments, injuries etc.

I think Liston's deliberately trying to blind Ali is about as likely as Walcott's deliberately trying to blind Marciano. Not very. I think it was an accident, personally.

I can't comment on Walcott-Marciano because i've only seen highlights that don't show the blinded part. However, in the other examples, like Golota vs Byrd, Czyz vs Holyfield, none were easily in control until they suddenly started blinking their eyes badly and running/holding only. Nor did it fit as well within the flow of the fight, like Liston getting desperate and getting after that last cheating attempt didn't work out for him.

[Unforgiven]

I think it's definitely true that Liston's detractors tend to leap upon his mob connections when it suits but shake their heads an cry "speculation" when those connections are raised to explain certain things that don't fit their view (the Ali fights being fixed, for example).

Yeah, they are very selective in what they believe reliable evidence or likely to have happened.
If one guy says another guy said he "juiced" Sonny's gloves, it's quickly accepted into the historical account. But if ten guys say they heard from Sonny or some other insider that the fights were fixed, or ten seperate guys say Sonny told them the muslims threatened him, it's quickly dismissed as bullshit.

[McGrain]

I can't comment on Walcott-Marciano because i've only seen highlights that don't show the blinded part. However, in the other examples, like Golota vs Byrd, Czyz vs Holyfield, none were easily in control until they suddenly started blinking their eyes badly and running/holding only. Nor did it fit as well within the flow of the fight, like Liston getting desperate and getting after that last cheating attempt didn't work out for him.


Well your very keen to convict is all, because Liston was "desperate". We both know that's not nearly enough, anything like enough. The two Liston-Ali fights may be the most scrutinised fights in history and both are on film, and there are many photographs.

No evidence exists of Liston's "cheating". You say you "can't comment on Walcott-Marciano because i've only seen highlights that don't show the blinded part". So? What, in the film, can be used to convict Liston aside from the fact that Ali was blinded? Which is just as confirmed in Walcott-Marciano? There is no evidence on film.

You've brought a short list of circumstantial evidence with which you seem quite happy to convict Liston. I'd say the fact that there is no real evidence tells it's own story.

But you're going to believe what you want to believe as far as this goes, a vacum of real evidence always allows for that. Basicallyt here is no point arguing about it because of this.

[TheGreatA]

True, but also after Patterson had suffered crushing back-to-back first round KOs.

I'd say being in this condition

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

is worse than having been knocked out. Patterson came back well from the losses to Liston.


But he also found time to fight the guy who had blasted out Machen in 1 round - three times.
Partly because he got blasted out himself against an under-estimated Johansson. The truth is that Patterson had a lackluster reign with a lot of inactivity and several undeserving contenders when he finally did end up defending his title.

The fight had previously been on the table before Liston won the title, and Liston turned down a $100,000-plus guarantee to fight him in Sweden.As far as I know, Liston and Johansson made a better deal about the fight taking place in Canada but it never came off. Liston was then given a title shot and offered Johansson a shot at the title.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]=onepage&q=johansson%20liston%20canada&f=false

[McGrain]

Yeah, they are very selective in what they believe reliable evidence or likely to have happened.
If one guy says another guy said he "juiced" Sonny's gloves, it's quickly accepted into the historical account. But if ten guys say they heard from Sonny or some other insider that the fights were fixed, or ten seperate guys say Sonny told them the muslims threatened him, it's quickly dismissed as bullshit.



Yeah, the conspiracy theories conrerning the first fight being fixed are much more complex but there seems to be more actual evidence for them than there is for Liston's having blinded Ali.

But people are very ready to believe the later whilst furiously dismissing the former. I guess it's a problem for people to believe anything that dents the Ali mystique (i'm speaking more widely here, not about Chris).

What is undisputable is that Ali was blinded and did wonderfully well to survive. That's the worst i've seen Lison look on film outside of Martin, but it most assuredly could have been Ali's skill doing that work. Other than that, what can you really say?

[Unforgiven]

There's a difference. Clay can clearly on film be seen to be blinded. You can't see on film that there's a fix - unless one goes down from a punch that didn't land. Which, of course, never happened.

Clay was blinded. Yes.
No dispute.

So, can you clearly see on film Liston's gloves being juiced ?


And SI article i'm referring to, was before Clay (or Dundee) was even in the picture.

Well, I'm talking about the post-fight article. If I remember rightly, Sports Illustrated article thought it innocent accident. I shall look for it.

Please share the article you are refering to.


I can't comment on Walcott-Marciano because i've only seen highlights that don't show the blinded part. However, in the other examples, like Golota vs Byrd, Czyz vs Holyfield, none were easily in control until they suddenly started blinking their eyes badly and running/holding only. Nor did it fit as well within the flow of the fight, like Liston getting desperate and getting after that last cheating attempt didn't work out for him.


Well, Liston seemed to go after him but what would you expect ? I mean, Liston's obviously aware that Clay's blinking or making a fuss about something, everyone could see that. That doesn't mean Liston was responsible though.
Anyone would be expected to try to press the advantage.

Clay being in control - "easily" according to you (I'm not so sure about that, Liston had come back well at the end of the 3rd round and the 4th was even.) - is irrelevant. Because shit happens, and when it happens it doesn't discriminate.
I mean, assuming it was an innocent mishap, why would it be less likely to happen when Clay was doing well ?

[turpinr]

Yeah, the conspiracy theories conrerning the first fight being fixed are much more complex but there seems to be more actual evidence for them than there is for Liston's having blinded Ali.

But people are very ready to believe the later whilst furiously dismissing the former. I guess it's a problem for people to believe anything that dents the Ali mystique (i'm speaking more widely here, not about Chris).

What is undisputable is that Ali was blinded and did wonderfully well to survive. That's the worst i've seen Lison look on film outside of Martin, but it most assuredly could have been Ali's skill doing that work. Other than that, what can you really say?you're right about liston looking bad.ali made liston look old beyond his years.

they also looked like they were from different eras.i've never noticed that before or since

[McGrain]

I'd say being in this condition

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

is worse than having been knocked out. Patterson came back well from the losses to Liston.



I totally agree with your general point, but I do feel that Machen came back wonderfully well also and deserves all the credit in the world to that point. To get back in the ring with a top man after all of that...

Ring magazine: "In Machen, Floyd met a figher who was hungry for money. Two years ago, beset by debt and with insufficient funds to care properly for his faimily, Machen had a physical and mental breakdown that necessitated hospitalization. He overcame the handicap, was pronounced returned to good health, and in facing an opponent those sole goal was another shot at the world heavyweight title, proved his right to a resupmption in boxing."

Machen: "I'm after security for my wife and family and i hope to attain my goal before quitting the ring. I went into the Patterson fight as physically and mentally fit as I ever have. Patterson can testify to that."

Interestingly, Machen was a 6-5 favourite going in.

[McGrain]

you're right about liston looking bad.ali made liston look old beyond his years.

they also looked like they were from different eras.i've never noticed that before or since

Ali also made many fighters look like they didn't belong in the ring with him during that period. Less to do with cross-eras more to do with Ali.

Can you imagine Shannon Briggs tyring to box him?

[TheGreatA]

Machen came back well considering that he had been counted out by everybody much like Cleveland Williams was after being shot but as a fighter he was diminished and didn't truly achieve any notable victories outside of the 1966 run when he defeated unbeaten Jerry Quarry and Joey Orbillo.

[bodhi]

Ali also made many fighters look like they didn't belong in the ring with him during that period. Less to do with cross-eras more to do with Ali.

Can you imagine Shannon Briggs tyring to box him?

This line just made me laugh out hard, my collegues gave me a wonderful "wtf" look :lol:

[McGrain]

Machen came back well considering that he had been counted out by everybody much like Cleveland Williams was after being shot but as a fighter he was diminished and didn't truly achieve any notable victories outside of the 1966 run when he defeated unbeaten Jerry Quarry and Joey Orbillo.


Yeah, he didn't win in five or six around this time, although I don't know the details of any of his fights post-Patterson.

[McGrain]

This line just made me laugh out hard, my collegues gave me a wonderful "wtf" look :lol:


Trying to explain why it's funny would be the worst part if anyone asked you what was so funny. Especially a girl.

[Maxmomer]

Not in my top 10. Ali, Louis, Marciano, Holmes, Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson, Dempsey, Foreman, Johnson, Fraizer all have better resumesm and thats 11 fighters right there. Liston is in my top 15 but not top 10. Maybe #12.

He only made 1 (!!!!) sucsesfull title deffense, never won the tittle after lossing it, didnt beat any ATG worthy of mention (unless if we count Patterson, wich I dont). This is not top10 material. :nono

Ten heavyweights clearly better than Liston? Do Foreman, Marciano, Frazier, Dempsey, Tyson and Johnson have clearly better resume's? Really? Patterson not an ATG worth mentioning? I call all sorts of bull-shit on this.

[Unforgiven]

This is from Tex Maule's Sports Illustrated piece on the Clay-Liston fight .......... (published March 9, 1964)

"In the fourth round, jabbing at Liston with his snake's tongue left hand, he had coated his glove with the caustic that had been applied to Liston's cut. When Clay brushed perspiration from his forehead midway in the round, he left a thin skin of the caustic on his forehead. It washed down into his eyes between rounds when his trainer, Angelo Dundee, swabbed him with a wet sponge. "I can't see, I can't see," he cried out, blinking his eyes and ducking away from the mouthpiece as the bell rang for the fifth."

.......

The reason I brought it up was because ChrisPontius used SI articles as an authority in his argument that Clay's temporary blindness was caused by a cheating Liston.
If SI articles have any authority on the subject, this one needs to be digested too, surely.

The whole article is here :

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Maxmomer]

Top 5 ya'll.

I concur. I can even see him at No. 3. Though after the top two my list constantly fluctuates, I don't think there's any heavyweight that has a shit-load more of a right to be there than Liston.

[Unforgiven]

I think he's arguably top 5, but, like I said before, I think sometimes the depth of his quality wins gets exaggerated ...... and the losses to Ali get alibi'd too much.

I wish someone would post some film of him against Zora Folley. I've heard it wasn't televised or filmed, but I dont know.
As I said before, Patterson, Folley and Machen are his three best opponents. The Patterson wins are impressive, but Machen not so much. The Folley fight (KO3) is a great result, and apparently Folley really came to fight. A shame it's not readily viewable.

[Unforgiven]

I think he's arguably top 5

I'd probably say that about 10 or 15 other heavyweights too though. :lol:

[PetethePrince]

Tell me how many fights in history show this? A guy being in comfortable control to constantly blinking and indicating that there's something in his eyes? And in the other corner, there's a guy with mob connections of whom there are rumors of earlier fixed fights (even in SI), who realizes he underestimated his opponent, needs help, then when that fails, he quits? You think that's a coincidence?

Without the mob and fixed fight stuff, Marciano vs Walcott.

[PetethePrince]

It amounts to speculation. If you want to quote SI I think their report thought it was Angelo Dundee's sponge or Liston's ointment for his cuts that seemed to cause the distress.

The "how many fights in history" reasoning can be used anyway you want. How many fights in history did a world heavyweight champion with "mob connections" quit with such a poor excuse and after such a mild "beating" and level on points against a 7-1 undedog ?
There you are, PROOF of a FIX.

Speculation, and rumour, that's all you provide.

"Mob connections" is just another sensationalist phrase that doesn't convince me at all. It's not as if you need to be connected to serious criminals to cheat in that way, or that being free from mob connections automatically makes the cornermen more reliable.

Bobby Czyz was "blinded" by Holyfield, that was his excuse for quitting. Chris Byrd complained after one of his fights (Golota?) that he'd had stinging eyes from something on his opponent. Rocky Marciano was blinking distressed against Walcott with something in his eyes, and blamed Walcott's corner for deliberately trying to blind him.
Maybe. But maybe there are many innocent ways a fighter can have that happen to him with all that hectic stuff going on in 1-minute intervals, with buckets, sponge, water, ointments, injuries etc.

Marciano never cried about it. Weil did.

[Stevie G]

he's in my top 10.his wins over cleveland williams,eddie machen ,zora folley and nino valdez were good enough for me.
My views are similar. He was in his prime quite a few years before he won the title.

[Bokaj]

This is from Tex Maule's Sports Illustrated piece on the Clay-Liston fight .......... (published March 9, 1964)

"In the fourth round, jabbing at Liston with his snake's tongue left hand, he had coated his glove with the caustic that had been applied to Liston's cut. When Clay brushed perspiration from his forehead midway in the round, he left a thin skin of the caustic on his forehead. It washed down into his eyes between rounds when his trainer, Angelo Dundee, swabbed him with a wet sponge. "I can't see, I can't see," he cried out, blinking his eyes and ducking away from the mouthpiece as the bell rang for the fifth."

.......

The reason I brought it up was because ChrisPontius used SI articles as an authority in his argument that Clay's temporary blindness was caused by a cheating Liston.
If SI articles have any authority on the subject, this one needs to be digested too, surely.

The whole article is here :

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

That Liston's own cornerman said it was deliberate on Liston's part is pretty damaging, though.

[Unforgiven]

That Liston's own cornerman said it was deliberate on Liston's part is pretty damaging, though.

People say all sorts of things as years pass, but did Liston's cornerman even say it ?
I've heard this before, but the only thing I've ever seen/read is that sportswriter Jack McKinney claims Joe Pollino, one of Liston's corner, told him that he (Pollino) had juiced the gloves.
It's "a guy told another guy" stuff, if I remember rightly.
There are SEVERAL of those types of stories that indicate Liston threw both fights too. And a million other rumours. Second-hand hearsay.
Unless I missed the horse's mouth stuff ?

[Bokaj]

People say all sorts of things as years pass, but did Liston's cornerman even say it ?
I've heard this before, but the only thing I've ever seen/read is that sportswriter Jack McKinney claims Joe Pollino, one of Liston's corner, told him that he (Pollino) had juiced the gloves.
It's "a guy told another guy" stuff, if I remember rightly.
There are SEVERAL of those types of stories that indicate Liston threw both fights too. And a million other rumours. Second-hand hearsay.
Unless I missed the horse's mouth stuff ?

Pollino said it himself on ESPN Classic.

[Unforgiven]

Pollino said it himself on ESPN Classic.

I haven't seen that. What was it called ?

[My2Sense]

Why would Johannson go to the states when there is money in Sweden?


Bingo! :good


To win the world heavyweight title.

If they fought in '61, it wouldn't have been for the title.

[Unforgiven]

I would love to see Joe Pollino actually talking about it on ESPN classic, if he did so.

[McGrain]

If they fought in '61, it wouldn't have been for the title.

To fight Sonny Liston then. The same reason Johannson would come to the US. I've no idea why the onus has been placed so firmly on Liston to go abroad, but I can't say i'm surprised.

[Unforgiven]

To fight Sonny Liston then. The same reason Johannson would come to the US. I've no idea why the onus has been placed so firmly on Liston to go abroad, but I can't say i'm surprised.

Liston did eventually go to Sweden, and fought for Ingemar Johansson (who was involved in the promotion, if i remember rightly), around 1966 or '67.

[Bokaj]

I haven't seen that. What was it called ?

It was a show about the fight. I think it's their "Greatest fight series". They run and rerun them continuosly. It's very often Ali fights, most often Manilla but also Clay-Liston. But this was the first time I saw Pollino. Surprised me. Don't think he elaborated much. Just said that it had been done.

[Unforgiven]

It was a show about the fight. I think it's their "Greatest fight series". They run and rerun them continuosly. It's very often Ali fights, most often Manilla but also Clay-Liston. But this was the first time I saw Pollino. Surprised me. Don't think he elaborated much. Just said that it had been done.

How recently was the show made ?
I'm surprised Pollino is still alive.

This is from 1989. Dundee seems to think it was innocent.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[TheGreatA]

Liston and Johansson made a better deal for more money to fight in Canada but the match-up was ruined by NBA.

[Bokaj]

How recently was the show made ?
I'm surprised Pollino is still alive.

This is from 1989. Dundee seems to think it was innocent.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

I saw it just a couple of months ago, but I don't know how old the show is. Some of them were made pretty long ago.

I know Dundee thought it was innocent.

[KTFO]

Tyson was KOed as often as Patterson. Is he glass jawed too? Patterson had no glass jaw. This is so exagerated. He got knocked down often but most of these knockdowns were due to him beeing offbalance due to his style. Nearly every tiem he got up and beat his opponent. That´s not beeing glassjawed. :bart


Tyson's chin was questionable, yes. But most of his opponents got their hands full defending themselves against Tyson's powerpunching. Buster Douglas wasn't a big powerpuncher, but left Tyson crawling around on the floor searching for his gumshield.

You are exagerating if you say that Patterson got KDed because of being offbalanced. Patterson got great footwork and speed, but couldn't take a decent punch to the button.

[bodhi]

Tyson's chin was questionable, yes. But most of his opponents got their hands full defending themselves against Tyson's powerpunching. Buster Douglas wasn't a big powerpuncher, but left Tyson crawling around on the floor searching for his gumshield.

You are exagerating if you say that Patterson got KDed because of being offbalanced. Patterson got great footwork and speed, but couldn't take a decent punch to the button.

:-(

[IntentionalButt]

Do people sneeze at the Patterson wins simply because of their low degree of difficulty for Sonny? If anything the way he did what he did to the Lineal champion should guarantee a pretty high ranking regardless of how the rest of his resume looks.

To prepare for his first fight against Patterson, Liston walked seven miles a day wearing seven-pound shoes.

That's pretty badass dedication...but what was the scientific purpose exactly? :lol: Liston didn't really seem to make much use of the muscles below his quads and his footwork consisted of digging in to push Floyd out of clinches and then rushing forth to bomb away. :huh

[TheGreatA]

Do people sneeze at the Patterson wins simply because of their low degree of difficulty for Sonny? If anything the way he did what he did to the Lineal champion should guarantee a pretty high ranking regardless of how the rest of his resume looks.



That's pretty badass dedication...but what was the scientific purpose exactly? :lol: Liston didn't really seem to make much use of the muscles below his quads and his footwork consisted of digging in to push Floyd out of clinches and then rushing forth to bomb away. :huh

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[IntentionalButt]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Not an answer, but thanks for playing.

[McGrain]

I love that footage. There's no single better tool in persuading people Sonny was as good as I think it is.

[TheGreatA]

Not an answer, but thanks for playing.

I think Liston had more use for his feet than you think he did. It doesn't show quite as well on that film but here's clips of the same fight from a different camera angle:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

6:30

I can't seem to find the black & white version of the first fight at the moment...

[IntentionalButt]

I'm not implying that his torso was mounted on an invisible pike; certainly he moved - but nothing about his footwork in that blowout screams of the need for seven lb weights x7mi. :think

[TheGreatA]

I'm not implying that his torso was mounted on an invisible pike; certainly he moved - but nothing about his footwork in that blowout screams of the need for seven lb weights x7mi. :think

Now that's one thing I can't find an explanation for. Liston did have some very unique training methods but evidently they worked for him as long as he actually trained, which was not always.

I do think he prepared for a harder fight than that, he was as focused as ever. I believe he didn't train much at all for the rematch.

[McGrain]

That's what I have, he trained for the title-match and then only minimally for the rematch.

[Seamus]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Man, what an ass-kicking. Good thing they don't let too many middleweights fight real heavyweights any longer.

[McGrain]

Man, what an ass-kicking. Good thing they don't let too many middleweights fight real heavyweights any longer.

The middleweight limit is 195lbs in bizzaro world, where you so obviously live?

[KTFO]

:-(


Outstanding argument. :good

[TheGreatA]

Man, what an ass-kicking. Good thing they don't let too many middleweights fight real heavyweights any longer.

Chris Byrd? James Toney? Roy Jones?

[KTFO]

Chris Byrd? James Toney? Roy Jones?


ATG HW resume? :think

[IntentionalButt]

The middleweight limit is 195lbs in bizzaro world, where you so obviously live?

:yep

[KTFO]

Lou Bizzarro was a journeyman.

[My2Sense]

I've no idea why the onus has been placed so firmly on Liston to go abroad, but I can't say i'm surprised.

Probably something to do with the big money offer he got, and the fact that both of them were partially inhibited from fighting in the US in mid and late '61.

I've no idea why you placed the onus firmly on Johansson to go abroad, but I can't say I'm surprised. :smoke

[bodhi]

Outstanding argument. :good

You exposed yourself so much with the posting I answered to, there just aren't any arguments necessary anymore.

[McGrain]

Probably something to do with the big money offer he got, and the fact that both of them were partially inhibited from fighting in the US in mid and late '61.

I've no idea why you placed the onus firmly on Johansson to go abroad, but I can't say I'm surprised. :smoke


I haven't placed any onus on either fighter.

[Seamus]

The middleweight limit is 195lbs in bizzaro world, where you so obviously live?

Obviously the texture of my point. Quick on the uptake.

He's bouncing around an offensive-minded, attacking blown up middleweight. It was a recipe for disaster for Floyd. And not that Liston doesn't bounce him around impressively. I just don't give him a great deal of credit for it.

The only fighters to really make a dent in the heavies coming up that far were extremely defensive minded and extremely defensively skilled.

[McGrain]

Obviously the texture of my point. Quick on the uptake.

He's bouncing around an offensive-minded, attacking blown up middleweight.


Oh no, I got it. It's very clever.

And like many of your posts, wholey inaccurate and besides the point.

Patterson did not make the middleweight limit once in his entire proffessional career. So in what sense is he a "blow up middleweight"? At all?

[IntentionalButt]

Floyd made the MMA Middleweight limit many times. :nono

[McGrain]

He also made the kickboxing MW limit a couple of times.

[MrMarvel]

There probably isn't a fighter in history and certainly not more than 1 that would of had more than one defense had there second defense been against a 64 Clay. Faulting Liston so much for failing to beat the greatest of all time is a laughable position to take.

That's hitting the nail on the head.

[Seamus]

Oh no, I got it. It's very clever.

And like many of your posts, wholey inaccurate and besides the point.

Patterson did not make the middleweight limit once in his entire proffessional career. So in what sense is he a "blow up middleweight"? At all?

Not at all besides the point. Floyd was undersized for his tactics with the dawning era of larger, more skilled heavyweights, of which Liston represented something of a watershed figure. The middleweight comment was a slight exaggeration, of course, but Floyd did weight in the 160's for his early fights.

In the future, I will adhere to your necessity for strict wooden literalism.

[Bokaj]

Not at all besides the point. Floyd was undersized for his tactics with the dawning era of larger, more skilled heavyweights, of which Liston represented something of a watershed figure.

I see you point, but it's a bit of an oversimplification. Don't forget that Patterson was nearing 40 when he beat Bonavena, the perhaps strongest and most powerful HW of that era next to Foreman. A huge win.

[My2Sense]

There probably isn't a fighter in history and certainly not more than 1 that would of had more than one defense had there second defense been against a 64 Clay.


That's a pretty bold statement considering how close the same Clay came to losing to men like Henry Cooper and Doug Jones.

[ChrisPontius]

I love that footage. There's no single better tool in persuading people Sonny was as good as I think it is.

I agree. Yet many here will have you believe that less than two years later he was shot. :huh I guess it's the same kind of people who say that Tyson was "shot" against Douglas. :lol:


Clay was blinded. Yes.
No dispute.

So, can you clearly see on film Liston's gloves being juiced ?




Well, I'm talking about the post-fight article. If I remember rightly, Sports Illustrated article thought it innocent accident. I shall look for it.

Please share the article you are refering to.


No, you can't see his gloves being juiced. Then again, you can't see his cornermen for the minute in the corner, either. Were Resto's cornermen filmed when they loaded his gloves? No, but it happened anyway...

About the article you requested - i'll get back with it later. I'm going to sleep soon and don't have it near, but it's out there. Old Fogey linked to it less than half a year ago.

By the way, i'm not saying that a SI article is sacred nor that it proves a fix, but it's interesting nonetheless. Did you know that even the Patterson fight had "fix" suspicions? I think this goes to show how unreliable reports are, and how they should be taken with a grain of salt. Especially in unfilmed days.


Well, Liston seemed to go after him but what would you expect ? I mean, Liston's obviously aware that Clay's blinking or making a fuss about something, everyone could see that. That doesn't mean Liston was responsible though.
Anyone would be expected to try to press the advantage.

Clay being in control - "easily" according to you (I'm not so sure about that, Liston had come back well at the end of the 3rd round and the 4th was even.) - is irrelevant. Because shit happens, and when it happens it doesn't discriminate.
I mean, assuming it was an innocent mishap, why would it be less likely to happen when Clay was doing well ?

Clay was the ring general. He was deciding what was happening. Hell, even when he was blind, he wasn't shipping many big punches.

Edit - one more thing: that SI article also says that Liston's left was clearly damaged because he was carrying it by his waist all the time during the 6th, which is simply not true and can be seen not to be the case on film. Does take some of it's credibility away.


Well your very keen to convict is all, because Liston was "desperate". We both know that's not nearly enough, anything like enough. The two Liston-Ali fights may be the most scrutinised fights in history and both are on film, and there are many photographs.

No evidence exists of Liston's "cheating". You say you "can't comment on Walcott-Marciano because i've only seen highlights that don't show the blinded part". So? What, in the film, can be used to convict Liston aside from the fact that Ali was blinded? Which is just as confirmed in Walcott-Marciano? There is no evidence on film.

You've brought a short list of circumstantial evidence with which you seem quite happy to convict Liston. I'd say the fact that there is no real evidence tells it's own story.

But you're going to believe what you want to believe as far as this goes, a vacum of real evidence always allows for that. Basicallyt here is no point arguing about it because of this.

I agree it's only circumstancial evidence, but his cornerman also admitted it. Boxing is a fishy sport and you can never be sure, but it does look very suspicious to me.

[PetethePrince]

I see you point, but it's a bit of an oversimplification. Don't forget that Patterson was nearing 40 when he beat Bonavena, the perhaps strongest and most powerful HW of that era next to Foreman. A huge win.

Some say he had changed tactics for his late 60's/early 70's comeback.

[Mendoza]

Not at all besides the point. Floyd was undersized for his tactics with the dawning era of larger, more skilled heavyweights, of which Liston represented something of a watershed figure. The middleweight comment was a slight exaggeration, of course, but Floyd did weight in the 160's for his early fights.

In the future, I will adhere to your necessity for strict wooden literalism.


There is little doubt that Patterson used the worst possible tactics vs. Liston. A smaller, chinny heavyweight wants to go after a much bigger skilled bomber. Unwise. Patterson admitted to being sacred of Liston too.

While the Patterson wins for Liston were very impressive, I think this is one fight that would come out the same result if they fought multiple times. That is, early KO win for Liston.

I give credit for Liston to beating Patterson with ease. I also agree with your points here too.

[Seamus]

I see you point, but it's a bit of an oversimplification. Don't forget that Patterson was nearing 40 when he beat Bonavena, the perhaps strongest and most powerful HW of that era next to Foreman. A huge win.

Yeah, Bonavena was strong but he was a little one, 5-10, 205-ish. Also, Floyd had changed his ways by that time. Smart move on his part.

[bigG]

question...does a fighters class of competition define his 'greatness' or otherwise.....some of the greats are lauded although their competiton may not have been outstanding..i think liston, foreman and even tyson can be included in this category....liston defended once and beat a few good, big men..but he would most probably have shone in most eras with his remorseless, stalking offence, ramrod jab and heavy hands..he did not choose his level of competition, history did....ditto foreman..sure, he destroyed frazier..twice..but he lost to ali, had a herculean tussle with ron lyle and lost to jimmy young...again, not names to set the stratosphere on fire, but in any era, you gotta say big george, old or young, maynhave shone due to his attribuites.....tyson feasted on a generation of dope addled heavyweights with more appetite for recreation and procreation than dilligence and desire to maintain the lustre of the thorny crown of best big man..yet, again, few would argue that his ferocity, speed and power when in his brief prime would not have cut a similar swathe thru any era.......

it seems that as history dictates a boxers opponents and thus how they are remembered, sometimes we forget their respective skill levels should be as much a judge of their places in the anals of our bruising game as the collective victims of their poetic violence are....

[McGrain]

Not at all besides the point. Floyd was undersized for his tactics with the dawning era of larger, more skilled heavyweights, of which Liston represented something of a watershed figure. The middleweight comment was a slight exaggeration, of course, but Floyd did weight in the 160's for his early fights.

In the future, I will adhere to your necessity for strict wooden literalism.



Strict wooden literalism isn't neccessary, but it would be nice if you could avoid misleading people with your posts.

Patterson fought as a heavyweight for 17 years. He fought below that weight for 3 years. Okay? He fought at middleweight exactly never (slight exaggeration? even labelling him a "blown up light-heavyweight" would be a huge reach given his pedicgree at HW).

Secondly, there was 20lbs between himself and Liston. Plenty, but less than seperated Chagaev and Valuev and around the same that seperated Wlad and Brewster, 17lbs.

[McGrain]

I agree. Yet many here will have you believe that less than two years later he was shot. :huh I guess it's the same kind of people who say that Tyson was "shot" against Douglas. :lol: .


Aye, "shot" is a ridiculous claim. Liston's performances post-Ali testify to that.

[kosaros]

He is in my top 10.

[bodhi]

Some say he had changed tactics for his late 60's/early 70's comeback.

:good

[Unforgiven]

I actually think Floyd Patterson tried to change tactics in the second Liston fight, whatever he says.
I can see he's attempting to use the ring and backing up until 0:43 where he ducks and gets clobbered by a Liston right ............ then Patterson tries to clinch, but that only makes things worse.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

I think even Patterson's trainers and Patterson himself wouldn't have objected too strongly to him being labelled a "blown-up middleweight". He was a small guy, and they had to make sure he ate enough to keep his weight up. He may have weighed 185 - 195 but he retained the frame to go down, at least to light-heavy, IMO. He wasn't as big-framed - or built up with the same solidness of - a Holyfield, nor as big as M.Spinks, or even as solid and built as a Gene Tunney, IMO.
In fact, look at him against Jimmy Ellis (another guy accused of being a "blown-up middle) and Patterson looks to have the naturally smaller frame, ie. bone-structured.
And he looked a little soft at 196 against Ali :
[Only registered and activated users can see links]


But having said that, Liston shouldn't be discredit because Patterson was "small". Look at all the men Patterson fought who didn't do anything like that to him. George Chuvalo didn't manhandle Patterson despite the fact that Floyd was willing to get in the trenches at times to win the round, and Chuvalo was 210 pounds of raw and incredible strength. Muhammad Ali was big, Bonavena was strong, Johansson was a fierce puncher (and Floyd came back to beat him 2 out of 3), Moore was a puncher. Floyd clearly wasn't easy to bully.

But like I said before, where you rate Liston will depend a lot on where you rate Patterson.

[bigG]

i think pareson is/was underated by many...big heart, fast hands, decent power...he fought, as many have said, a lot of good qulaity guys and his most memorable defeats come against the younger, stronger ali and in liston a fighter who was just horrible for him, and an underestimated johansen who lets not forget, had huge power...and floyd starched in the rematch.....not much shame in that.....liston was all kinds of wrong for all kinds of heavyweights in history, big, strong (in perspective...), great chin, hits hard and methodically walks down and takes out a lot of guys...

[SuzieQ49]

Liston to me is a tough fighter to place. His resume isn't very deep

I disagree.

Here is an old article i made on liston. I am going to leave out listons skill in this thread and concentrate on his resume.





A. Thrown To the Wolved Early

Some fighters are coddled on there way up. Not Liston. He was thrown to the wolves very early and came out on top. Being thrown to the wolves early in your career and doing well is a big accomplishment that not many heavyweight champions can lay claim to.


Liston as an inexperienced amatuer beat Olympic Heavyweight Champion 6'4 210lb Huge Punching Ed Sanders. Liston was very inexperienced at this stage. It was only an amatuer fight, but this was the same man who made Johansson put his tail between his legs. Liston showing natural talent like this and dominating a far more experienced Olympic Champion is something that should be warranted.


Entering the pros........


In just his 6th and 7th pro fights, Liston is thrown in against rising young prospect 20-1 Johnny Summerlin, who would crack the top 10 within a year. Johnny Summerlin would go on to become one of the better heavyweight contenders of the mid 1950s. Summerlin had skills, and beat solid opposition. Liston was only a raw novice when he twice beat Johnny Summerlin. Yes, these were very close fights that could have gone either way. However, Not many heavyweight champions in history beat such a good fighter by there 6th pro fight. I would be as bold to say Liston was thrown in there as a test from the Mobsters, to see just how good he really was. Liston could have easily lost this bout. Impressive coming away with two victories.


In listons 8th pro fight, he is thrown in against # 7 ranked light-heavyweight contender 18-5 marty marshall. Marshall was good enough to knockout Bob Satterfield. Liston outboxed marshall until a clowning technique left Liston laughing out loud for a second, enabling Marshall to hit him with a equalizer breaking liston's jaw in the process. This slowed liston down considerably, but liston toughened it out through excruciating pain to last in the distance. The result is a close split decision loss. In the rematch, Sonny beat the shit out of marshall knocking him out in 6. In retrospect, how many Heavyweight Champions in history took on a top 10 ranked contender in just there 7th and 8th pro fights?


Liston had a very casual year in 1955 but then picks up in 1956 with a one sided dominating win over marty marshall to win the trilogy. In hindsight, Sonny Liston was originally scheduled to face harold johnson on that date in 1956. Liston was just a 14-1 novice, yet his management was going to send Liston in vs # 1 ranked contender, and hall of famer, harold johnson. Just 4 days before the harold johnson-sonny liston fight, johnson pulled out due to an injury. Liston should get credit for his willingness to take on such a fighter that early in his career.


What Could Have Been?

Liston missed out on fighting most of 1956 and all of 1957. His legacy could have improved had he gotten to fight during these 2 years. He was just starting to mature into his physical prime by 1956-57 and certainly would have stepped up to the world class scene. Names like Harold Johnson, Archie Moore, Ingemar Johansson Young jack johnson, Harold carter, Hurricane jackson, Bob Baker all could have been potential opponents for liston during these years. Sonny could have added a few impressive names to his win column. Much like Louis missing out from 42-45 and Ali missing out 67-70, Liston did lose a couple prime years.



B. Cleaning out the division 1958-60 to establish # 1 contender


Liston came back from prison in 1958. From 1958-62 Liston cleaned out the top heavyweight contenders in his division like few heavyweight champions ever did. Liston challenged and sought to fight all the top heavyweights 1958-62. Some of the top names liston defeated like Eddie Machen, Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams, and Nino Valdes were all shunned from World Title shots from Cus Damato because they presented too much of a challenge. Liston is one of the few champions who can be accused of ducking no one. The ones he did miss out on fighting like Henry Cooper, Archie Moore, Ingemar Johansson, and Bob Cleroux did not seem to eager to fight him. In liston's 2 title defenses, he took on both number 1 contenders. Both happen to be hall of famers. Bottom Line, Liston was intent on taking on the best the division had to offer. Many great heavyweight champions missed out on fighting the biggest names of their era. Sonny did not.


C. Domination in Prime 1958-62


A big factor is domination. Many heayweight champions struggled with there best opposition they faced. Sonny Liston hardly struggled in his prime. He beat everyone clearly and uncontroversially for the most part. 1960 was Liston's breakout year. He catapulted himself into the # 1 slot, which impressive wins over top ranked contenders Zora Folley and Eddie Machen.


TKO 1 Wayne Bethea- Bethea was a top 10 ranked contender. Liston destroyed Bethea in 58 seconds. Bethea was known for having quite a great chin. He was never knocked out before or after the liston fight.

TKO 6 Mike Dejohn- One sided massacre over a dangerous ranked heavyweight. Dejohn stood near 6'5 and had menacing power in that left hook.

TKO 2 and TKO 3 Cleveland Williams- Liston took Williams apart with brutal intentions, but more importantly showed he could fight through adversity to weather williams early storm. Williams was a big fast slugger not many dared enter the ring against. In Williams best years 1957-1964, this was the only time Cleveland was ever stopped. Williams would crack the top 5 from 1961-1964.

KO 3 Zora Folley- Destroyed the # 1 rated heavyweight contender. Folley was master boxing technician with a excellent jab and good right hand.

TKO 4 Nino Valdez- Destroyed a fading but still dangerous contender in 4 one sided rounds. Valdes was another big man with power who liston laid out.

TKO 1 Roy Harris- Demolished a 22-1 ranked contender in embarrasingly easy fashion.

W 12 Eddie Machen- Won a close but clear cut decision over one of the better ring technicians of the era. Liston proved in this fight that if his power failed, he still had the skills to outpoint even the most skilled boxers. Machen was rated # 3 in the world at the time. Machen was a very polished boxer, with tremendous fundamentals, and pop in both hands.

KO 1 2x Floyd Patterson- Dominating performances over a heavyweight champion. These are arguably the two most dominating preformances over another prime great heavyweight we have ever witnessed. Patterson's combination of technique, speed, and power is the best this division's ever seen. It isn't easy to go out there and do what Liston did to him.


D. Defeat of Opposition in there "Primes"


One thing that makes liston standout amongst the rest is almost all of his best opponents he beat were fighters who were young, and in there primes. Many great heavyweight champions beat fighters who were considered green, or past there prime. Liston was one of the few heavyweight champions of all time who beat virtually all of his world class fighters when they were in there prime.

lets take a peek

Floyd patterson 26-27 years old at his peak

eddie machen 26 years old at his peak

cleveland williams 26-27 years old at his peak

zora folley 27 years old at his peak

mike dejohn 27 years old at his peak

johnny summerlin 21 years old entering his prime

roy harris 26 years old at his peak

Nino Valdez was the only one of the flock I would consider past his prime at 34 years old and near retirement. Still, valdes proved in the previous year he still had the size and power to make him a formidable opponent for anyone in the division.

[SuzieQ49]

E. Wide Variety of Styles



Liston defeated a wide range of styles and sizes. Something that is difficult to do because this makes you more vulnerable to have your weaknesses exposed.

Sluggers:

6'4 215lb cleveland williams 2x
6'3 215lb nino valdez
6'5 205lb mike dejohn


Slick-Counterpuncher:

Eddie Machen


Boxer-punchers:

Zora Folley
Johnny Summerlin

Puncher-Swarmer:

Floyd Patterson

Ackward Spoilers:

Wayne Bethea
Roy Harris
Marty Marshall

Tough Fringe Contenders/Journeyman

Gerhard Zech
Chuck Wepner
Henry Clark
Billy Hunter
Amos Lincoln
Roger Rischer
Albert Westphal
Bert Whitehurst 2x
Howard King

[PetethePrince]

Beyond the most overrated HW on this site by a mile. And by some our best posters. Most have him rightfully outside the top 10, and others have him in that fair 6-10 spot. But some have him as far as #3. It's ludicrous. Liston should have trouble making your top 10 if you evaluate his legacy based on his resume, accomplishments, performances, longevity, etc. If you include skill-set/ability than he can be in that 5-10 spot. Even with H2H including he should probably not be in your top 5, let alone top 3.

[mcvey]

Liston to me is a tough fighter to place. His resume isn't very deep, and he only made one title defense. On the other hand he looks very good in some filmed fights.
I have him around no 6.

[bodhi]

Beyond the most overrated HW on this site by a mile. And by some our best posters. Most have him rightfully outside the top 10, and others have him in that fair 6-10 spot. But some have him as far as #3. It's ludicrous. Liston should have trouble making your top 10 if you evaluate his legacy based on his resume, accomplishments, performances, longevity, etc. If you include skill-set/ability than he can be in that 5-10 spot. Even with H2H including he should probably not be in your top 5, let alone top 3.

Agreed. These days I have him Top15 but not Top10.

[SuzieQ49]

Liston is easily top 10. I rate him # 3 all time. You have to look at what a man did in his OWN era, and he could not have accomplished anymore than he did on his run up to the title. He wiped out that division clean.

[SuzieQ49]

Beyond the most overrated HW on this site by a mile. And by some our best posters. Most have him rightfully outside the top 10, and others have him in that fair 6-10 spot. But some have him as far as #3. It's ludicrous. Liston should have trouble making your top 10 if you evaluate his legacy based on his resume, accomplishments, performances, longevity, etc. If you include skill-set/ability than he can be in that 5-10 spot. Even with H2H including he should probably not be in your top 5, let alone top 3.

Beyond the most overrated HW on this site by a mile.

That goes to Vitali Klitschko

Most have him rightfully outside the top 10

I would have to disagree. Most have him rightfully INSIDE the top 10.


Liston should have trouble making your top 10 if you evaluate his legacy based on his resume, accomplishments, performances, longevity, etc.

Why?

He is a complete boxer puncher who has the tools to beat anyone in history, he cleaned out his division with authority, and holds numerous wins over some terrific fighters. I don't buy into that "longevity" crap. If Liston and Tyson can clean out there division in a 3 year span, I think that trumps taking 7 years to do it.

Outside of Louis and Ali, who did more with their era?

Even with H2H including he should probably not be in your top 5, let alone top 3

Why, outside of Ali who is a heavy favorite against him?

[PetethePrince]

That goes to Vitali Klitschko

Maybe on the general forum.

I would have to disagree. Most have him rightfully INSIDE the top 10.

I would say it's about 50/50 with in and out. My main point is I find him to be a borderline top 10. On the HW survey Liston did not make the top 10 list. He was ranked #11.

Why?

He is a complete boxer puncher who has the tools to beat anyone in history, he cleaned out his division with authority, and holds numerous wins over some terrific fighters. I don't buy into that "longevity" crap. If Liston and Tyson can clean out there division in a 3 year span, I think that trumps taking 7 years to do it.

I don't rate on H2H like you, that's an entirely separate list. If I had, I think Liston would be in that 5-10 range for me. I'm not sure. He did clean out the post Marciano division. He has good resume with alright depth and a big name in Patterson. But I don't rate the era is being exceptional, and I also should point out that I judge his losing performances too. The man quit against a young Ali, and shamefully stayed down on the floor in the rematch. Maybe the fix was in, maybe he was threatened by the NOI or Mob but I truly don't know. What I do know is that type of defeat hugely hurts his standing legacy wise. The Patterson win is a big claim to his fame. He was briefly champion or defending the belt. Not his fault though due to being avoided.

I agree that activity is just as important as longevity. I rank Tyson in my top 10 (barely), and Liston was actually at one point in my top 10 but I felt it was undeserving.

Outside of Louis and Ali, who did more with their era?

Sonny did good for his era. His era is nothing exceptional, and his resume is good but not out of this world. I would say Frazier, Marciano, Lewis, and Tyson did. Foreman did his career in 2 parts as did Holmes. While Liston cleaned up and Holmes bracketed, his resume and 48-0 run to me is still more impressive. As is his performance against Mercer in the 90's and his losing effort against Holyfield rather than his 1 round KO loss to Ali and previous quit job against Ali.

Why, outside of Ali who is a heavy favorite against him?

With ATG I don't know who are truly heavy favorites against other ATG. Liston is tough one to judge, and solely an H2H list he is a top 5 type HW, even top 3. But regarding legacy, I don't think he stacks up as much.

I would favor Holyfield and Tyson to beat him. And I think Lewis, Holmes, and Foreman are 50/50 type fights.

[choklab]

Liston was a good world champ but all the best guys he dismantled had been dismantled before. when he got folley zorra was coming off a loss to the last rated guy he fought - henry cooper. sure sonny knocked out folley but young jack johnson and summerlin had already done this. dito cleveland wiliams who had been exposed by bob satterfield. dito Valdes via powel and machen by KO. eddie machen may have come to survive but even he had been exposed by ingo who had already burst floyd's buble for sonny.
This is not what can be said of the finest champions. when foreman Kod frazier he was the first to do it. Nobody but Louis Kod max baer and braddock. Nobody but ali Kod foreman. Nobody but tyson Kod spinks and holmes.

[TheGreatA]

Liston was a good world champ but all the best guys he dismantled had been dismantled before. when he got folley zorra was coming off a loss to the last rated guy he fought - henry cooper. sure sonny knocked out folley but young jack johnson and summerlin had already done this. dito cleveland wiliams who had been exposed by bob satterfield. dito Valdes via powel and machen by KO. eddie machen may have come to survive but even he had been exposed by ingo who had already burst floyd's buble for sonny.
This is not what can be said of the finest champions. when foreman Kod frazier he was the first to do it. Nobody but Louis Kod max baer and braddock. Nobody but ali Kod foreman. Nobody but tyson Kod spinks and holmes.

Archie Moore had been exposed by Leonard Morrow and Charles
Ezzard Charles had been exposed by Jersey Joe Walcott & Lloyd Marshall
Joe Louis had been exposed by Max Schmeling
Jersey Joe Walcott had been exposed by Joe Louis & Abe Simon
Don Cockell had been exposed by Jimmy Slade & Randy Turpin

Are you saying that Rocky Marciano wasn't a fine champion?

[SuzieQ49]

GreatA,

I must say. It pains me to see I am the only staunch Rocky Marciano fan who is also a huge Sonny Liston fan. Some of Liston's biggest detractors happen to be huge Marciano fans(chokelab being one of them). I guess the two don't mix well. I will be the first to break the trend.

[choklab]

Archie Moore had been exposed by Leonard Morrow and Charles
Ezzard Charles had been exposed by Jersey Joe Walcott & Lloyd Marshall
Joe Louis had been exposed by Max Schmeling
Jersey Joe Walcott had been exposed by Joe Louis & Abe Simon
Don Cockell had been exposed by Jimmy Slade & Randy Turpin

Are you saying that Rocky Marciano wasn't a fine champion?

Of course marciano (unlike liston) qualifys on these grounds. marciano was the first guy to knock out rex layne. layne was the "yet to be exposed" superstar in the making when marciano knocked him out. Liston never did this. Both liston and marcianos key fights were against guys who had been around but marcianos guys had much more form. I mean, the unbeaten runs on moore, Louis and cockell was much more impresive at the time marciano faced them than say valdes, folley and machen when liston fought them. Liston never did beat anyone as good as either walcott or charles.

[choklab]

GreatA,

I must say. It pains me to see I am the only staunch Rocky Marciano fan who is also a huge Sonny Liston fan. Some of Liston's biggest detractors happen to be huge Marciano fans(chokelab being one of them). I guess the two don't mix well. I will be the first to break the trend.



sonny was a good champion and very very hard to beat. he had so many qualitys its understandable he is over rated. on paper there is no shame in losing to ali and geting Ko'd after ones prime against leotis. with all the conspiracy theorys it boosts his failings so that is also understandable too. I have him outside my top ten but he is beter than most champions. I accept that.

[bodhi]

sonny was a good champion and very very hard to beat. he had so many qualitys its understandable he is over rated. on paper there is no shame in losing to ali and geting Ko'd after ones prime against leotis. with all the conspiracy theorys it boosts his failings so that is also understandable too. I have him outside my top ten but he is beter than most champions. I accept that.

:good

[sonnylistonmich]

he fought everyone that was to b e fought. twice. before he went to the workhouse, and after. what do you want. so many people cannot separate their bias and hatred for sonny, not to mention their devotion to clay. if you watch his fights he is dominate , period. Foreman said he backed him up in the ring.

[frankenfrank]

Liston outside of my top 30 (HW alone) for sure.
On his good days he might make my top 40.
P4P , below top 100 4 sure.
But at least he can't be blamed to have ducked anyone , correct me if im wrong

[JAB5239]

Liston outside of my top 30 (HW alone) for sure.
On his good days he might make my top 40.
P4P , below top 100 4 sure.
But at least he can't be blamed to have ducked anyone , correct me if im wrong

Dude, you rank Oliver McCall, Orlin Norris and other non entities in the heavyweight divisions all time history. Please.

[frankenfrank]

Dude, you rank Oliver McCall, Orlin Norris and other non entities in the heavyweight divisions all time history. Please.
The highest rank I ever gave to Norris @ 201+ was below top 25 , probably it was below top 30 , but I wouldn't check it just for the sake of this argument .

[JAB5239]

The highest rank I ever gave to Norris @ 201+ was below top 25 , probably it was below top 30 , but I wouldn't check it just for the sake of this argument .

My bad....you have McCall on your all time top 10. What was I thinking?

[frankenfrank]

My bad....you have McCall on your all time top 10. What was I thinking?
I still do . the best one could hope to do against him in his prime was stick and move and run for one's life . Of course fighting in spurts against him was risky but it could have been done for short periods of time just like Leonard could fight Hagler for 30 seconds each round and Camacho fought Chavez (really) for the last 30 seconds (or so) of their fight.

[JAB5239]

I still do . the best one could hope to do against him in his prime was stick and move and run for one's life . Of course fighting in spurts against him was risky but it could have been done for short periods of time just like Leonard could fight Hagler for 30 seconds each round and Camacho fought Chavez (really) for the last 30 seconds (or so) of their fight.

So not only is McCall in your all time top 10, but he could fight like Ray Leonard and Hector Camacho for 30 seconds each round? :rofl

[frankenfrank]

So not only is McCall in your all time top 10, but he could fight like Ray Leonard and Hector Camacho for 30 seconds each round? :rofl
After checking my post I am certain that what I meant is indeed what I wrote , the important thing is that others should understand , but not everyone at any cost

[lufcrazy]

Liston can't be judged solely on his resume as it doesn't stand up in comparison to other great heavyweights.

H2h he's a monster, very technically sound and aside from the ali fight and the last couple of rounds vs martin he was as dominant a heavyweight as you could hope for

He destroyed patterson who's in my top 30 and got destroyed by ali who's in my top 2. H2h there are plenty of guys inbetween that I feel would succumb to liston.

On a good day I have him number 4, on a bad day I have him 8.

[frankenfrank]

Actually Eddie Machen wasn't all that much exposed by Ingemar Johansson whom hit him while he was down.

[SonnyListonsJab]

Liston can't be judged solely on his resume as it doesn't stand up in comparison to other great heavyweights.

Yes it does. Patterson 2x, Foley, Williams 2x, Machen, Valdes, DeJohn, Harris, Summerlin 2x, Clark.

[lufcrazy]

Yes it does. Patterson 2x, Foley, Williams 2x, Machen, Valdes, DeJohn, Harris, Summerlin 2x, Clark.

When I say holds up i mean in comparison of those around his ranking.

I currently have him number 7 on my list. His resume is not one of the best 7 in heavyweight history.

Valdes, Summerlin where ranked where at the time Liston beat them?

The guy's great but if you think that's cos of his resume you're tripping. it his H2H matchup where he gets his due credit.

[Stevie G]

Liston to me is a tough fighter to place. His resume isn't very deep, and he only made one title defense. On the other hand he looks very good in some filmed fights.
My top 10 all time heavyweights

1 Muhammad Ali
2 Joe Louis
3 Larry Holmes
4 George Foreman
5 Joe Frazier
6 Sonny Liston
7 Lennox Lewis
8 Mike Tyson
9 Evander Holyfield
10 Jack Johnson


Sonny fully deserves his place here. If he had n't have had an early career interuption,he may have been one or two places higher.
His resume was pretty good too.

[Stevie G]

fear factor.his fight with tyson:good
Very true,Turpin :good

[Unforgiven]

I often reconstruct my opinion of Liston.
He's a hard one to rank, because of what happened after he'd won the title. One fairly meaningless defence and the two farcical happenings with Clay/Ali.

I don't know if I'd pick anyone to beat a prime Sonny Liston though.

[SonnyListonsJab]

My top 10 all time heavyweights

1 Muhammad Ali
2 Joe Louis
3 Larry Holmes
4 George Foreman
5 Joe Frazier
6 Sonny Liston
7 Lennox Lewis
8 Mike Tyson
9 Evander Holyfield
10 Jack Johnson


Sonny fully deserves his place here. If he had n't have had an early career interuption,he may have been one or two places higher.
His resume was pretty good too.

You forgot Rocky Marciano

[lufcrazy]

Louis
Ali
Rocky
Johnson
Holmes
Dempsey
Liston
Foreman
Lewis
Holyfield
Frazier
Tyson
Jeffries
Sullivan
Langford
Charles
Walcott
Wills
Jeannette
Patterson
Fitzsimmons
Tunney
Baer
Schmelling
Sharkey

[Stevie G]

You forgot Rocky Marciano
I'd place Rocky just outside the top 10. No disrespect to Signor Marchegiano,it's just that I rate the others higher.