Vitali Klitschko vs Sonny Liston

[Bummy Davis]

Vitali 6"8 250 lbs of awkward fighting style and power vs the 6" 1/2 212 lb long reach power punching Sonny Liston...who would win and how would it go....

For me I see Liston failing to come out for the 8th rd.

[ticar]

vitali wins.taller,stronger and i would even say more agile than liston.with his height he would neutralize listons reach.

[mckay_89]

Vitali wears him down and stops him by the middle rounds, Vitali holds too much of a size advantage for Liston to be able to bully him about the ring like he did with most of his opponents and Liston doesn't have the movement to provide the clumsy Vitali with much of a problem connecting.

[Minotauro]

Liston out jabs him and counters Vitali, he won't get away with that low guard leaning back style against the powerful, accurate jab like Liston's. Sonny would either win a decision or late stoppage.

[MRBILL]

V.K. by mid-rds KO / TKO.......... Liston eats the sink and bar of soap..........

SR.BILL

[Quitali Bitchko]

Liston would win this so easily it would be funny. Liston by KO inside 6. :deal

[janitor]

Never has any heavyweight been acorded as much credibility as Vitally Klitschko in head to head matchups for doing so little.

[ChrisPontius]

Never has any heavyweight been acorded as much credibility as Vitally Klitschko in head to head matchups for doing so little.

What VK lacks in quality wins, he makes up for with the extreme dominant fashion in which he wins - and in a sense, during his losses. Ironically, to a degree, the same can be said about Liston, although he obviously has better names on his resume.

[Seamus]

Liston would win this so easily it would be funny. Liston by KO inside 6. :deal

and your name screams objectivity in this matter.

Though, I agree somewhat with Janitor. This is a tough, tough match-up either way.

[Mendoza]

Never has any heavyweight been acorded as much credibility as Vitally Klitschko in head to head matchups for doing so little.

Is there a single fighter that Liston beat you would pick to beat Vitali?

Vitali has won his share of battles vs. ring ranked opponents, and has never been close to out boxed or stopped from punches in KO/TKO loss.

One day Vitali's critics might give him some credit for his defense, foot work, and stamina in the ring.

Not sure who wins here. Liston was a monster of a man, but he was also a bully type who seemed to lack intangibles when things did not go his way. I don't think Liston rolls over Vitali here. Its going to be a tough fight. Maybe Vitali's height, and defense would be the difference. Or perhpas Liston power could swing things his way.

I'd pay $24.95 just to see the stare down between these two.

[MRBILL]

Vitali Klit get dicked hard by the modern day asshole / assholes'..................

V.K. is FUCKING GREAT! He is the man at heavyweight............. Nobody from any era just walks through this dude........ NOBODY!!! V.K. is so scary, I'm currently writing a new "Frankenstein" script built especially just for him........... WORD!!

MR.BILL:deal

[KTFO]

Liston takin a mid-round-dive after eating loads of jabs and some overhand-rights.

[mr. magoo]

I really don't see Liston as having the type of mobility nor style that would be particularly problematic for Klitschko. He had the power to hurt Vitali no doubt, but he's going to have land a lot more often than just a few decent shots here and there for it to become an issue. Frankly, with Klit's height and boxing ability, not to mention power to make Sonny respect him, I don't think Liston is just going to outgun him at his leisure.

Tough one to call, but I'm leaning towards Dr. Ironfist.

[Quitali Bitchko]

and your name screams objectivity in this matter.



Not really, it should scream reality, specially the first part. I wouldnt put Quitali in top20 H2H let alone give him a chance to beat Liston. Let's look at his best accomplishments; He couldnt beat a fat, unprepared, unmotivated, worst LL ever at the end of LL's carrer. Hell he couldnt last longer with him then old, shot Tyson. He quit againts a feather fisted opponent beacuse his shoulder hurt (near the end of the fight), when great champions of the past fought on with broken arms. And his most recent accomplishment has been going 10 rounds with a fat, unskilled bum in Arreola, who Liston would dispose of in a single round. Aside from Quitali's size and rather below average skill set, what does he have? The world has gotten full of incredibly delusional people. :-(
His brother WALDO ´´dont hit me with more then one punch at a time or I shit my pants and you have to smell it then`` or in other words MrPanicAttack has more power and skill, but his glass jaw and mental toughness in the size of a peanut would mean he is H2H even worse.
And if you need proof that the HW devision is at an all time low, just look at the top10 and then look at the fighters who are in that top10. :-(

[joe33]

Not really, it should scream reality, specially the first part. I wouldnt put Quitali in top20 H2H let alone give him a chance to beat Liston. Let's look at his best accomplishments; He couldnt beat a fat, unprepared, unmotivated, worst LL ever at the end of LL's carrer. Hell he couldnt last longer with him then old, shot Tyson. He quit againts a feather fisted opponent beacuse his shoulder hurt (near the end of the fight), when great champions of the past fought on with broken arms. And his most recent accomplishment has been going 10 rounds with a fat, unskilled bum in Arreola, who Liston would dispose of in a single round. Aside from Quitali's size and rather below average skill set, what does he have? The world has gotten full of incredibly delusional people. :-(
His brother WALDO ´´dont hit me with more then one punch at a time or I shit my pants and you have to smell it then`` or in other words MrPanicAttack has more power and skill, but his glass jaw and mental toughness in the size of a peanut would mean he is H2H even worse.
And if you need proof that the HW devision is at an all time low, just look at the top10 and then look at the fighters who are in that top10. :-(

So vits pulls out of a fight, because of a injury that had he gone on he may well have finished his whole career right there, and yet liston who took the worst fake dive in the history of the sport seems to me to be always brushed over quickly, can one imagine if it had been a east euro who had done that ?, fucking hell all you would hear would be "fucking cheating bastards" and the like, seems because he was an american fighter he dont get nearly enough stick for it, when for me it has always put me of the man no matter how good or what ever he did in his career, mafia or not, he dived like ive never seen before or since

[mr. magoo]

So vits pulls out of a fight, because of a injury that had he gone on he may well have finished his whole career right there, and yet liston who took the worst fake dive in the history of the sport seems to me to be always brushed over quickly, can one imagine if it had been a east euro who had done that ?, fucking hell all you would hear would be "fucking cheating bastards" and the like, seems because he was an american fighter he dont get nearly enough stick for it, when for me it has always put me of the man no matter how good or what ever he did in his career, mafia or not, he dived like ive never seen before or since


Of course not,

You among all people should know that African American fighters who aired on black and white film and made their living on beating up cruiserweights were leagues above anyone else. For this reason alone, Liston should be made a collosal favorite over either Klit.

[lefthook89]

Of course not,

You among all people should know that African American fighters who aired on black and white film and made their living on beating up cruiserweights were leagues above anyone else. For this reason alone, Liston should be made a collosal favorite over either Klit.

and the exact same can be said about a fighter with basic skills who beats on blown up cruiserweights or heavyweights with no boxing skills. i would take a win over floyd patterson then chris arreola or sam peter any day of the week.

[frankenfrank]

Vitali 6"8 250 lbs of awkward fighting style and power vs the 6" 1/2 212 lb long reach power punching Sonny Liston...who would win and how would it go....

For me I see Liston failing to come out for the 8th rd.
so you know the answer quite exactly

[frankenfrank]

Never has any heavyweight been acorded as much credibility as Vitally Klitschko in head to head matchups for doing so little.
please check his resume (boxrec page) again . and if you want to see it happening , you can also search him on youtube.

[frankenfrank]

What VK lacks in quality wins, he makes up for with the extreme dominant fashion in which he wins - and in a sense, during his losses. Ironically, to a degree, the same can be said about Liston, although he obviously has better names on his resume.
no he doesn't have bigger names.
and vitali's wins are good.
you want to see lack of quality wins ? see kessler and hopkins.

[tommygun711]

Liston TKO

[he grant]

Vitali would get brutalized ... a terrible match up for him ... Liston's jab would tear him apart ... a TKO in about six ...

[OBCboxer]

What VK lacks in quality wins, he makes up for with the extreme dominant fashion in which he wins - and in a sense, during his losses. Ironically, to a degree, the same can be said about Liston, although he obviously has better names on his resume.

....and has more talent than Klitschko.

[Boxed Ears]

Liston would win this so easily it would be funny. Liston by KO inside 6. :deal

No one with your name is allowed to reply to this thread. :lol:

[MRBILL]

I just don't see V.K. getting dropped and stopped by a "Phantom" punch or going out on his face from the power of a battered & bewildered Leotis Martin of '69....

I say V.K. dwarfs Liston in size and strength.... Liston was a beast, but V.K. is downright scary in the ring.... I see Liston's jab being nullified by the 6' 8" Klitschko who is also pretty mobile for such a hulk.....

Klit TKO 10 Liston.......

MR.BILL:deal:bbb

[itrymariti]

I'm very surprised people are picking VK so much in this one. I think Liston is an under-rated fighter overall, and one of the better H2H fighters in HW history. Klitschko is out-gunned considerably here, and I think Liston's range and accuracy would get him the KO at some point.

[MRBILL]

I'm very surprised people are picking VK so much in this one. I think Liston is an under-rated fighter overall, and one of the better H2H fighters in HW history. Klitschko is out-gunned considerably here, and I think Liston's range and accuracy would get him the KO at some point.


Naw..... Klit is NOT out-gunned here at all..... V.K. would beat everyone Liston ever beat....... Liston never really fought any monsters before....... Monsters for Liston were dudes like "Williams & Ali." Dudes like "Machen, Patterson , Martin & Scrap Iron Johnson" were all around 200 pounds..... Nothing at all like a hulking V.K. with boxing skills and power.....
:deal:hat

MR.BILL

[Seamus]

Funny how when asked who were the most intimidating heavyweights he ever saw, Manny Steward named three... Liston, Tyson and Vitali.

I'll go with VK in a 12 round UD but with a face like hamburger.

[PowerPuncher]

Vitali gives Liston a sustained beat down in this 1, Liston is too short and slow to get his shots shots off, Vitali would do the usual mechanical high paced heavy handed break down from range and stops him around the 9th.

Liston has a punchers chance against Wladdy though

[Sardu]

Vitali Klitschko would grind Liston down and stop him in the later rounds. Since He has a great chin and has never been down (even from Lennox Lewis) I don't see Liston being the one to do it.

[PetethePrince]

Funny how when asked who were the most intimidating heavyweights he ever saw, Manny Steward named three... Liston, Tyson and Vitali.

I'll go with VK in a 12 round UD but with a face like hamburger.

Fair assessment.

Foreman is more intimidating than Vitali in my mind though.

[MRBILL]

Fair assessment.

Foreman is more intimidating than Vitali in my mind though.

Foreman was very scary but, that was early on in the 70s......... I didn't think Foreman looked scary during his comeback...... Of course Foreman would scare the Dickens right outta his typical "Bum of the Month" tomato can he was kayoing on ESPN or the USA network during the late 80s, but he didn't seem to scare his solid contenders that he faced in the 90s....

MR.BILL:deal:hat

[johnmaff36]

So vits pulls out of a fight, because of a injury that had he gone on he may well have finished his whole career right there, and yet liston who took the worst fake dive in the history of the sport seems to me to be always brushed over quickly, can one imagine if it had been a east euro who had done that ?, fucking hell all you would hear would be "fucking cheating bastards" and the like, seems because he was an american fighter he dont get nearly enough stick for it, when for me it has always put me of the man no matter how good or what ever he did in his career, mafia or not, he dived like ive never seen before or since
In Listons defence, he did fight on with a broken jaw against marty marshall

[djanders]

Never has any heavyweight been acorded as much credibility as Vitally Klitschko in head to head matchups for doing so little.

Amen!

Many people today seem to think that size, weight lifting, and big muscles equals a superior fighter. Not true, in my opinion! In the old days, boxing trainers knew that being muscle bound didn't work against quality competition in the ring. Vitali would be out of his league against Sonny Liston...again...in my opinion.

[Unforgiven]

I think a prime Liston is too fast and precise for any version of Vitali Klitschko. He'd carve him up.

It would be a tough fight but I can remember Vitali against what I thought was an overweight, over-the-hill and sluggish Lennox Lewis, and Vitali lost that one.

Of course Liston is shorter, around the same height as Sam Peter, and Vitali will attempt his same strategy. But Liston was quicker and more athletic, Liston's speed is underrated. I'm talking about prime Liston. If Liston had been matched with slow fat guys more in his career he'd not be called "slow". And if Vitali had been matched with some of the fast men we see Liston against, he'd look horribly slow.
I suspect liston would do well with such a large target in front of him. It would be a long gruelling night though.

[ChrisPontius]

If Liston had been matched with slow fat guys more in his career he'd not be called "slow". And if Vitali had been matched with some of the fast men we see Liston against, he'd look horribly slow.


On the flipside, he'd also look horribly big to mismatched proportions. Almost everyone considers Liston a giant because he mostly fought small men, but he was as big as Vitali's smallest opponent - Byrd. Who did beat him of course, albeit under special circumstances.

[Unforgiven]

On the flipside, he'd also look horribly big to mismatched proportions. Almost everyone considers Liston a giant because he mostly fought small men, but he was as big as Vitali's smallest opponent - Byrd. Who did beat him of course, albeit under special circumstances.

Yes, Vitali would look ridiculously big against a Floyd Patterson.

I wouldn't say Byrd was the same size as Liston. Liston was a big-boned natural heavyweight. Byrd was a blown-up light-heavy at best. More similar to Patterson if anything.

[mcvey]

On the flipside, he'd also look horribly big to mismatched proportions. Almost everyone considers Liston a giant because he mostly fought small men, but he was as big as Vitali's smallest opponent - Byrd. Who did beat him of course, albeit under special circumstances.

Not all of Liston's wins were over small men.
he fought
Williams x2 6'3'' 215lbs
Elmer Rush 214lbs
Howard King 6'2'' 204lbs
Nino Valdes 6'3'' 211lbs
Mike Dejohn 6' 21/2'' 202lbs
Amos Lincoln 6' 2'' 215lbs

Henry Clark 6 3'' 215lbs
Gerhard Zech 65'' 226lbs
bigger or comparable to himself in size,and height.
Many of them, when he was creaking and old.
My money goes on Sonny :good
Vitali,I like, but his opposition has been abysmal.

[taobum70]

I'm very surprised people are picking VK so much in this one. I think Liston is an under-rated fighter overall, and one of the better H2H fighters in HW history. Klitschko is out-gunned considerably here, and I think Liston's range and accuracy would get him the KO at some point.

Lisotn doesn't have the style or movement to avoid Vitali's punches from weird angles. Liston reinged when he was a big man who could bully his opponents. Vitali has underrated reflexes, he is one of the best HW's ever at making opponents miss. He also has the better chin, Liston would not have taken that uppercut from Lewis. I see a hard, physical fight where both fighters land their jabs, but Vitali's size, strength and toughness let him take over in the middle to late rounds.

[taobum70]

Not all of Liston's wins were over small men.
he fought
Williams x2 6'3'' 215lbs
Elmer Rush 214lbs
Howard King 6'2'' 204lbs
Nino Valdes 6'3'' 211lbs
Mike Dejohn 6' 21/2'' 202lbs
Amos Lincoln 6' 2'' 215lbs

Henry Clark 6 3'' 215lbs
Gerhard Zech 65'' 226lbs
bigger or comparable to himself in size,and height.
Many of them, when he was creaking and old.
My money goes on Sonny :good
Vitali,I like, but his opposition has been abysmal.

All those fighters on your list are small compared to Vitali, they are in the size range of Gomez who has more boxing skills than most of them and could do very little to Vitali.

[mcvey]

In Listons defence, he did fight on with a broken jaw against marty marshall

And a broken nose against Williams .

[mcvey]

All those fighters on your list are small compared to Vitali, they are in the size range of Gomez who has more boxing skills than most of them and could do very little to Vitali.

You missed the point Chris Pontius said Liston's wins were mostly over smaller men .
I gave a few examples of men as big ,or bigger than Liston whom Sonny fought.
All of Vitali's wins have been over men considerably smaller than himself,and the vast majority of them were club fighters,imo.
Gomez is 36 years old, and his best win is a dec over a 42 year old McCall.

[Unforgiven]

Gomez is 36 years old, and his best win is a dec over a 42 year old McCall.

And he's not a legitimate 230 pounder either. He was just plain fat against Vitali.
Gomez is a pretty big guy, but I doubt he'd scale over 200 pound if he was in shape.

[ChrisPontius]

Not all of Liston's wins were over small men.
he fought
Williams x2 6'3'' 215lbs
Elmer Rush 214lbs
Howard King 6'2'' 204lbs
Nino Valdes 6'3'' 211lbs
Mike Dejohn 6' 21/2'' 202lbs
Amos Lincoln 6' 2'' 215lbs

Henry Clark 6 3'' 215lbs
Gerhard Zech 65'' 226lbs
bigger or comparable to himself in size,and height.
Many of them, when he was creaking and old.
My money goes on Sonny :good
Vitali,I like, but his opposition has been abysmal.

True, but let's be honest. Williams aside, those opponents were either very mediocre or over the hill. And even at that, none of them scales over 220lbs. VK is 250lbs.

Of Liston's key wins, i.e. Patterson, Machen, Williams & Folley, only Williams scaled over 200lbs and/or was over 6'1.

Yes, Vitali would look ridiculously big against a Floyd Patterson.

I wouldn't say Byrd was the same size as Liston. Liston was a big-boned natural heavyweight. Byrd was a blown-up light-heavy at best. More similar to Patterson if anything.

Byrd doesn't (nearly) have Liston's strength or punching power, but he is similar in size. He carries 213lbs very well:
(click to view)
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Whether it's "natural" or not is a bit of a slippery slope to me. He applied the right training methods and gained quite a lot of muscle as you can see. If he did it the Toney way, sure, then i'd understand. But like Holyfield, he became a legit 213lbs, ripped, heavyweight. Now if he entered the ring at 190lbs, then it would be a different story..

[Unforgiven]

Byrd doesn't (nearly) have Liston's strength or punching power, but he is similar in size. He carries 213lbs very well:
(click to view)
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Whether it's "natural" or not is a bit of a slippery slope to me. He applied the right training methods and gained quite a lot of muscle as you can see. If he did it the Toney way, sure, then i'd understand. But like Holyfield, he became a legit 213lbs, ripped, heavyweight. Now if he entered the ring at 190lbs, then it would be a different story..

I think Liston is bigger than Byrd. Just a bigger-framed man. Byrd fought at 175 and 195 in his last two fights, and claimed that he walked around at 185 between heavyweight fights ! To me, that's a sign that his "213 pounds" was not a weight that he was genuinely settled at.
I mean, Liston would never be able to make 175. This may or may not be relevant. The point is, every individual is different. I think natural bone-structure size is important, as is strength and power.

I understand your argument about "natural" or not, but I would say that applies to a Holyfield more than a Byrd. I mean, even Holyfield had a smallish frame, he's not really much bigger than Byrd at all, that's true - but he really was ripped and genuinely built up to a genuine 210 pounds.
Byrd's "ripped" at 213 pounds like Michael Spinks was, and Spinks was 6'3.
Yes, Byrd and Spinks packed on muscle and carry the weight well but they looked a little less solid than Holyfield.

Michael Spinks the same size as a young George Foreman (who was 213 against Peralta) ?

Byrd's reach was listed as 74 or something like that. Liston's was 84. Not necessarily accurate on either count, but surely indicates something.

Of Vitali's opponents, I think Liston is closer in dimensions to Sam Peter, a little less thick, a lot less fat and with longer arms, but pretty close.

[ironchamp]

Never has any heavyweight been acorded as much credibility as Vitally Klitschko in head to head matchups for doing so little.

Well to be fair, Ike Ibeabuchi seems to get the benefit of the doubt in some of these match-ups.

Although I personally feel that, Ike beating David Tua in 1997 and Chris Byrd in 1999 (via KO mind you) is a better than any of Vitaly Klitschko's wins.

As for the Match up, I tend to think its a pick em fight.

[TheGreatA]

Byrd claimed he was in reality under 200 lbs when he fought Klitschko. I don't know if there's any truth to it but that's what he said himself.

Chris Byrd: "Not at all, because all I'm doing is running. I lose weight when I spar and I haven't sparred yet. I could back down to 168 is if I wanted to, but I think light heavyweight is a good fit for me. I got my body back and I got no fat on my body no more. I wasn't a guy who used any illegal substances so I didn't put on any muscle mass. I'm not a muscular guy, so mine was mostly fight. I ate my way to become a heavyweight, but I was never a true heavyweight. Eveytime I fought nobody knows what I really weighed when I got into the ring. Before I fought Wladimir Klitschko I came in at 197 and then I got the flu after that for three days and I was sick and my weight went even lower.

Chris Byrd: I told people for years that I was really an artificial heavyweight. I wasn't even a cruiserweight, I was just under 200 pounds when I was training to fight big heavyweights. I dont know anything about any illegal substances, I don't know nothing about that. I heard about it when I was champion, about most other guys being on some stuff, I thought it couldn't be. I didn't know anything about it, and I still don't. I wouldn't know where to get it, or anything. For people that said that I must be on something for dropping all this weight.

[Unforgiven]

Byrd claimed he was in reality under 200 lbs when he fought Klitschko. I don't know if there's any truth to it but that's what he said himself.


Chris Byrd: "Not at all, because all I'm doing is running. I lose weight when I spar and I haven't sparred yet. I could back down to 168 is if I wanted to, but I think light heavyweight is a good fit for me. I got my body back and I got no fat on my body no more. I wasn't a guy who used any illegal substances so I didn't put on any muscle mass. I'm not a muscular guy, so mine was mostly fight. I ate my way to become a heavyweight, but I was never a true heavyweight. Eveytime I fought nobody knows what I really weighed when I got into the ring. Before I fought Wladimir Klitschko I came in at 197 and then I got the flu after that for three days and I was sick and my weight went even lower.

Chris Byrd: I told people for years that I was really an artificial heavyweight. I wasn't even a cruiserweight, I was just under 200 pounds when I was training to fight big heavyweights. I dont know anything about any illegal substances, I don't know nothing about that. I heard about it when I was champion, about most other guys being on some stuff, I thought it couldn't be. I didn't know anything about it, and I still don't. I wouldn't know where to get it, or anything. For people that said that I must be on something for dropping all this weight.



Well, I believe him. He just doesn't look ripped or particularly big. He carries the weight well. His weigh-in weights may be genuine or inflated. I dont know if he weighed in with shoes on, or after a four-course meal and a gallon of milk.
But even if he was 213, if not's the hard solid settled 213 that Holyfield weigh, let alone the large-framed naturally structured 213 of a Liston or young Foreman.

I guess some people would just tell Chris Byrd, "Bullshit, Chris ! You as big as Sonny Liston !" . But he always seemed like a genuine guy to me, and I've read him saying the same things in other interviews, and it squares with the visual perception.

[ChrisPontius]

I think Liston is bigger than Byrd. Just a bigger-framed man. Byrd fought at 175 and 195 in his last two fights, and claimed that he walked around at 185 between heavyweight fights ! To me, that's a sign that his "213 pounds" was not a weight that he was genuinely settled at.
I mean, Liston would never be able to make 175. This may or may not be relevant. The point is, every individual is different. I think natural bone-structure size is important, as is strength and power.

I understand your argument about "natural" or not, but I would say that applies to a Holyfield more than a Byrd. I mean, even Holyfield had a smallish frame, he's not really much bigger than Byrd at all, that's true - but he really was ripped and genuinely built up to a genuine 210 pounds.
Byrd's "ripped" at 213 pounds like Michael Spinks was, and Spinks was 6'3.
Yes, Byrd and Spinks packed on muscle and carry the weight well but they looked a little less solid than Holyfield.

Michael Spinks the same size as a young George Foreman (who was 213 against Peralta) ?

Byrd's reach was listed as 74 or something like that. Liston's was 84. Not necessarily accurate on either count, but surely indicates something.

Of Vitali's opponents, I think Liston is closer in dimensions to Sam Peter, a little less thick, a lot less fat and with longer arms, but pretty close.

I think the Sam Peter comparison is fair.

However, i don't put too much stock in Chris' words. He's playing the "David vs Goliath" line for his entire career - and he's entitled to that, but he keeps coming in at 210+lbs.

Michael Spinks at heavyweight looked soft and weak. Byrd looks strong. Big arms, defined six pack, etc.

Here you can see that he really is a big dude:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
(not the most flattering picture, but it shows his big arms and ripped stomach)

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Next to the earlier mentioned Holyfield... does he really look smaller?


[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Winning the title. Again, if you showed this to someone who doesn't know Byrd, would he say "well that's fake muscle, he's a natural LHW" ?

Many tend to degrade his size because:


He's fought a shitload of big or even huge opponents. Wladimir Klitschko 2x, Vitali Klitschko, 240lbs Andrew Golota, 270lbs Jameel McCline, 233lbs Tua, 226lbs Povetkin, etc.
He's one of the, if not the weakest puncher of the decade. People naturally associate this with a smaller man.


He claims to be below 200lbs in training camp? I don't buy it. Look at these pictures:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Again, you can see he's a big dude and definitely not below 200lbs.


The way he made 175lbs was definitely not healthy. You could see this in the ring as he got annihilated by a mediocre LHW who wasn't known for his punching power. Or just look at this picture, which says enough:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[mr. magoo]

I agree with Chris ( Pontius ).

There is a big difference between a guy who is 210 lbs and conditioned, vs a man who just merely makes the weight of 210 lbs. Spinks added weight for the purpose of making the necessary perameters, but I don't think that he was ideally fit at those levels. Byrd was a well honed 210 lbs, and frankly I think this would make him a legitimately solid heavyweight in an earlier era.

[Son of Gaul]

vitali wins.taller,stronger and i would even say more agile than liston.with his height he would neutralize listons reach.

Taller yes, but stronger:patsch?

[TheGreatA]

Picture comparisons between Sonny Liston and Sam Peter in his last fight (weighed 237 lbs):

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

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[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[ChrisPontius]

Nice pictures. Liston is definitely more defined and a better physical specimen (no homo). Peter's build, by comparison, is more that of a strongman (bulkier), while Liston's is that of a boxer: lean, flexible and plenty of stamina. Peter doesn't have to go 15 rounds, though.

[Seamus]

Nice pictures. Liston is definitely more defined and a better physical specimen (homo).

corrected.

[he grant]

You guys who are picking Vitali are truly delusional ... the Klitschko's are so overrated on this board it's actually funny.

[djanders]

You guys who are picking Vitali are truly delusional ... the Klitschko's are so overrated on this board it's actually funny.

:good

The Klitschkos are the best around right now, no doubt about that. Are they in Sonny Liston's league? No way! Size be damned! Those amateur styles of theirs ain't gonna cut it with Sonny in the ring...in my opinion.

[MRBILL]

The "K" bros. are NOT overrated... They are the BEST heavies out there today..... Both brothers are dominant...... However, yes, I agree the division sucks ass right now, but it'll bounce back sooner or later---I HOPE!

Wladimir and Vitali Klitschko are the BEST heavyweight hulks to ever laced up the gloves. They are much better then old dudes like "Luis Firpo, Jesse Willard, Primo Carnera, Abe Simon, Buddy Baer, Carmine Vingo & Mike White" for Christ sake....

I like the "K" bros..... But I think Vitali is the meaner and more scary of the two..... Plus, at age 38 yrs, he still kicks-ass....... WORD!

MR.BILL

[MRBILL]

1. Ali
2. Holmes
3. Johnson
4. Louis
5. Foreman
6. Lewis
7. Vitali Klit
8. Holy
9. Tyson
10. Bowe / Frazier (Tie)
11. Marciano
12. Dempsey
13. Liston
14. Wlad Klit
15. Jeffries
16. Walcott
17. Charles
18. Tunney
19. Baer
20. Sharkey / Patterson (Tie)

MR.BILL:deal

Let the arrows fly high.....:shock::admin

NOTE:

Screw the RESUME bullcrap.... I rate these guys based on who I think can and would kick some ass with the elite in a time machine..... For instance, guys like "Johnson, Louis & Vitali Klit" cannot be faulted for defending and stopping a list of "Lesser" opponents simply because they had no real competition for certain lengths of their careers...... NO!! I will NOT crucify there.....

[Mendoza]

I think a prime Liston is too fast and precise for any version of Vitali Klitschko. He'd carve him up.

It would be a tough fight but I can remember Vitali against what I thought was an overweight, over-the-hill and sluggish Lennox Lewis, and Vitali lost that one.

Of course Liston is shorter, around the same height as Sam Peter, and Vitali will attempt his same strategy. But Liston was quicker and more athletic, Liston's speed is underrated. I'm talking about prime Liston. If Liston had been matched with slow fat guys more in his career he'd not be called "slow". And if Vitali had been matched with some of the fast men we see Liston against, he'd look horribly slow.
I suspect liston would do well with such a large target in front of him. It would be a long gruelling night though.

Liston fast? Not exactly. In face in their primes, Vitali ( who is 38 now and has overcome multiple knee, shoulder and back injuries ) was faster with his feet than Liston was. VK never seems to get any credit for defense, head movement, judgment of distance, or the amount of ground he can quickly cover with his feet.

Lennox Lewis himself said Vitali was hard to hit. No man has ever won more than two consensus rounds vs. Vitali. He is very hard to out box.

Liston did fight some larger heavies. Cleavland Williams landed plenty in two short fights. In fast Williams really worked Liston over in one of their fights before his lack of punch resistance, style and chin caught up to him.

[MRBILL]

Liston fast? Not exactly. In face in their primes, Vitali ( who is 38 now and has overcome multiple knee, shoulder and back injuries ) was faster with his feet than Liston was. VK never seems to get any credit for defense, head movement, judgment of distance, or the amount of ground he can quickly cover with his feet.

Lennox Lewis himself said Vitali was hard to hit. No man has ever won more than two consensus rounds vs. Vitali. He is very hard to out box.

Liston did fight some larger heavies. Cleavland Williams landed plenty in two short fights. In fast Williams really worked Liston over in one of their fights before his lack of punch resistance, style and chin caught up to him.

Liston had a fairly quick left jab, but so did Foreman..... Liston, like Foreman, was NOT a swift mover.... YES! V.K. is very mobile for a man his size and weight of 250 pounds....... I'm impressed with V.K. and his skills and good speed for his size......

MR.BILL:deal:thumbsup

[Mendoza]

:good

The Klitschkos are the best around right now, no doubt about that. Are they in Sonny Liston's league? No way! Size be damned! Those amateur styles of theirs ain't gonna cut it with Sonny in the ring...in my opinion.

What do you mean amateur styles. As an older fighter, Vitali has fought highly regarded boxers in Gomez, and Johnson. They had quick hands, good skills, and good defense...yet combined the two of them one one round.

Vitali is active, accurate, can throw and land punches from multiple angles, and is pretty hard to hit cleanly. All fighters have flaws in their style.

[MRBILL]

What do you mean amateur styles. As an older fighter, Vitali has fought highly regarded boxers in Gomez, and Johnson. They had quick hands, good skills, and good defense...yet combined the two of them one one round.

Vitali is active, accurate, can throw and land punches from multiple angles, and is pretty hard to hit cleanly. All fighters have flaws in their style.

:thumbsup:hat:deal:bbb:happy:think:good

MR.BILL

[round15]

I'm leaning towards Liston here in terms of the power and ferocity element, by late rounds stoppage or UD. Neither Klitschko has fought a fighter with the thudding jab and wrecking ball right of Sonny Liston. It wouldn't surprise me based on pure athleticism to see both Klitschko brothers beat Liston too. Wlad and Vitali should are amongst the best conditioned heavyweight fighters in the history of the sport. Stamina is another issue though, because I wouldn't put them in the same category as prime Marciano, prime Frazier, Ezzard Charles or even 1960's Ali.

[Doc Dynamo]

[ I'm currently writing a new "Frankenstein" script built especially just for him........... WORD!!

MR.BILL:deal[/quote]


Get George Foreman for it and it can be Frankenstein meets the Mummy

Liston by a KO. Good trumps big.

[Unforgiven]

I think the Sam Peter comparison is fair.

However, i don't put too much stock in Chris' words. He's playing the "David vs Goliath" line for his entire career - and he's entitled to that, but he keeps coming in at 210+lbs.

Michael Spinks at heavyweight looked soft and weak. Byrd looks strong. Big arms, defined six pack, etc.



Ok. I accept that Byrd is a decent 210 pounds, as was Sonny Liston.
I was selling him short, but I do think the fact that he was 165 pounds at 22, and boxed at 140 when he was 18 kind of indicates he has a smaller frame.
I think you're selling Michael Spinks short. Against Cooney he weighed 208 and I dont accept he looked any more "soft and weak" than Chris Byrd at any time. Spinks built himself up with good sound training methods like Holyfield (& Byrd) did.

You're right about Byrd. His weakness of punch distorts my perception of his size.

[Haggis McJackass]

Never has any heavyweight been acorded as much credibility as Vitally Klitschko in head to head matchups for doing so little.

Name me another heavyweight champion who utterly dominated his subpar competition, in every single fight, like Vitali has.

Oh. You can't.

Try it, go on.

:hat

[Unforgiven]

Vitali's not a real world heavyweight champion

[Unforgiven]

1. Ali
2. Holmes
3. Johnson
4. Louis
5. Foreman
6. Lewis
7. Vitali Klit
8. Holy
9. Tyson
10. Bowe / Frazier (Tie)
11. Marciano
12. Dempsey
13. Liston
14. Wlad Klit
15. Jeffries
16. Walcott
17. Charles
18. Tunney
19. Baer
20. Sharkey / Patterson (Tie)

MR.BILL:deal

Let the arrows fly high.....:shock::admin

NOTE:

Screw the RESUME bullcrap.... I rate these guys based on who I think can and would kick some ass with the elite in a time machine..... For instance, guys like "Johnson, Louis & Vitali Klit" cannot be faulted for defending and stopping a list of "Lesser" opponents simply because they had no real competition for certain lengths of their careers...... NO!! I will NOT crucify there.....

:lol:

It's your list. :good

[MRBILL]

Vitali's not a real world heavyweight champion


See... But you are a "K" bro. hater......:twisted::patsch

MR.BILL

[lefthook31]

Im not a hater but I dont know how anyone can rank Vitali that high based on his competiton and his inability to show any type of infighting skills. Liston closes the gap, Vitali crumbles.

[Seamus]

his inability to show any type of infighting skills..

Was Ali a particularly good infighter?

[lefthook31]

Was Ali a particularly good infighter?
He could do it, and wasnt lost on the inside. Lennox Lewis wasnt a great infighter either, but he could get by, Vitali drowns on the inside.

[Seamus]

He could do it, and wasnt lost on the inside. Lennox Lewis wasnt a great infighter either, but he could get by, Vitali drowns on the inside.

I seem to recall him clinching, holding the back of his opponent's head while he punched them, grabbing the ropes, anything but boxing legally...

[lefthook31]

I seem to recall him clinching, holding the back of his opponent's head while he punched them, grabbing the ropes, anything but boxing legally...
Your speaking of Lewis? If so youre right, but its something, rather than freezing and becoming somewhat defenseless and confused on the inside. A smart fighter like Lewis picked up on that and started throwing shots in the clinch that ultimately led to Vitalis quick breakdown.

[TommyV]

Name me another heavyweight champion who utterly dominated his subpar competition, in every single fight, like Vitali has.

Oh. You can't.

Try it, go on.

:hat

That merely shows that he's a model of consistency in terms of preparation physical and mentally for each fight, and therefore is above to perform to the best of his ability against subpar opposition. In now way does that show his ability to beat guys like Sonny Liston.

[Woddy]

Easy win for Vitali Klitschko. Liston might be a good tune-up fight just two months before Vitali steps in with a real opponent.

[lefthook31]

Easy win for Vitali Klitschko. Liston might be a good tune-up fight just two months before Vitali steps in with a real opponent.
Like Kevin Johnson? :p

[TheGreatA]

Like Kevin Johnson? :p

Albert "The Dragon" Sosnowski.

[Seamus]

Your speaking of Lewis? If so youre right, but its something, rather than freezing and becoming somewhat defenseless and confused on the inside. A smart fighter like Lewis picked up on that and started throwing shots in the clinch that ultimately led to Vitalis quick breakdown.

I'm speaking of all three actually... Ali, like Lewis later, loved to hold and hit. Ali, like Klitschko (esp. Wlad) loved to tie up and clinch, obscenely so. Ali had a few other tricks that the over-awed refs let him get away with. My point is a fighter does not need to be complete to be champion or even great.

[Haggis McJackass]

That merely shows that he's a model of consistency in terms of preparation physical and mentally for each fight, and therefore is above to perform to the best of his ability against subpar opposition. In now way does that show his ability to beat guys like Sonny Liston.

Okay, so never being knocked down, never being behind on the cards at any stage of any fight, coming into every fight in tip-top shape, taking every opponent seriously - these things do nothing to improve his head-to-head standing against the unproven Sonny Liston?

The question is - what exactly has Liston done to show he can beat Vitali?

You may say that in Vitali's two biggest fights, he quit both times. Once he suffered a potentially career-ending injury during a fight he was dominating, and the other he was keen to fight on with half his face hanging off his skull and a 4-2 lead against Lennox.

But Liston fares worse in his two biggest fights. He was embarrassed in the first fight with Ali, (when he allegedly tried to cheat by smearing ointment on his gloves to blind Ali) and in the second, he took probably the most notorious dive in boxing history, and quit in the first round while completely uninjured.

Sonny Liston NEVER fought a guy who weighed in at over 230 pounds. Not even once. Vitali fights at over 250, and there is no fat on him. He is a GIANT compared to anyone Liston has ever faced. Most of Liston's opponents were under 200 pounds.

Vitali is a different monster than anyone Liston ever faced, and he makes Liston look like a midget as well. I don't say that Liston CAN'T win, but there is nothing at all on his resume that tells me he is EXPECTED to win. On paper, Vitali's case for this matchup appears MUCH stronger.

:hat

[Kalasinn]

Liston would work his way in and viscously take Vitali apart on the inside where he is exceedingly vulnerable to stop him late.
Also Sonny could out jab Vitali on the outside with a superior, faster and longer jab.

Waiting for Mendoza to tell me about Vitali's better infighting skills and jab...

[Haggis McJackass]

Liston would work his way in and viscously take Vitali apart on the inside where he is exceedingly vulnerable to stop him late.
Also Sonny could out jab Vitali on the outside with a superior, faster and longer jab.

Apparently not vulnerable enough for anyone he's fought to be able to defeat him, stagger him or even win a few rounds off him.

And if Vitali doesn't feel like fighting on the inside, then he's fighting on the outside with his awkward style that eats come-forward fighters alive.

:hat

[Kalasinn]

Apparently not vulnerable enough for anyone he's fought to be able to defeat him, stagger him or even win a few rounds off him.

And if Vitali doesn't feel like fighting on the inside, then he's fighting on the outside with his awkward style that eats come-forward fighters alive.


Exceedingly vulnerable to a great fighter like Liston, not the opponents defeated by Vitali.
None of the fighters Vitali has fought could close the distance or fight on the inside like Liston could.
Also you say he eats come-forward fighters alive, but never has he faced one with real elusive abilities and a reach advantage.

[Haggis McJackass]

None of the fighters Vitali has fought could close the distance or fight on the inside like Liston could.
Also you say he eats come-forward fighters alive, but never has he faced one with real elusive abilities.

Liston has fought nobody who brings anything close to Vitali's combination of size, skill, speed, power, chin, accuracy, toughness and ring smarts to the fight.

The size alone is a significant unknown for Liston, who was used to being the bigger man in the ring. Vitali is half a foot taller and 30+ pounds heavier.

Liston was used to intimidating his opponents. I don't see that working on Vitali. If anything, Vitali would get inside Liston's head.

Look, I don't say it's IMPOSSIBLE for Liston to win this fight, but ojectively, Vitali is the definate favourite. Liston is probably more competitive than most of Vitali's opponents, but he will likely get ground down and stopped late, just like most everybody else. Liston was no defensive master and he would come to fight, which suits Vitali fine. Sonny will find himself eating three punches for every one that he lands, and he never seemed like the mentally strongest fighter, as shown twice against Ali. When he realizes that Vitali is steadily beating him down, and he lands a couple of shots that Vitali shakes off, he will get discouraged and go into his shell just like the rest.

:hat

[Haggis McJackass]

Exceedingly vulnerable to a great fighter like Liston, not the opponents defeated by Vitali.
None of the fighters Vitali has fought could close the distance or fight on the inside like Liston could.
Also you say he eats come-forward fighters alive, but never has he faced one with real elusive abilities and a reach advantage.

You keep saying that Vitali has never fought anyone like Liston before, why do you ignore the FACT that it is even worse the other way around?

Look at Liston's competition that he beat. Do you back any of them to beat Vitali, or even take more than a round or two off him? These 200 pound cruiserweights that Liston knocked over?

If Vitali doesn't want to fight on the inside, then he won't. His style is designed around controlling the distance of the fight. If Liston stays away he gets ground down and stopped like the rest. If he comes inside he gets tied up, leaned on and frustrated. And if he lands a bomb, Vitali will eat it as easily as any fighter who has stepped in the ring, as his chin is first-class.

:hat

[Haggis McJackass]

Im not a hater but I dont know how anyone can rank Vitali that high based on his competiton and his inability to show any type of infighting skills. Liston closes the gap, Vitali crumbles.

:patsch

Show me one 5 second stretch of any fight that illustrates Vitali would "crumble". He is one of the physically and mentally toughest fighters to ever step into the ring. Never knocked down, never even badly staggered, but it's a given that Liston will overwhelm him. Because clearly Vitali is not going to pose any more of a challenge than 5'3", 125-pound, china-chinned Floyd Patterson did.

:hat

[Blood Green]

I don't think this is a good match up for Liston. He plodded too much to take Vitali out of his game.

[Mendoza]

Kalasinn says: Liston would work his way in and viscously take Vitali apart on the inside where he is exceedingly vulnerable to stop him late.
Also Sonny could out jab Vitali on the outside with a superior, faster and longer jab.

Waiting for Mendoza to tell me about Vitali's better infighting skills and jab.


I am familiar with Liston, and am one of his bigger fans here. But Sonny's best work was on the outside, not on the inside. It may shock you to learn that Liston was cut more often than Vitali was, and was down from Marty Marshall. The battle of the jabs would be interesting. As you punch up, you lose striking range. Liston who was about 6'1" would really have to reach up hit to hit the 6'7 1/2 Vitali, who as I mentioned doesn't;t exactly stand still and plod. In Vital's case his shoulder lines up perfectly with Liston's face and chin. A fighters maximum striking range is a straight line from his shoulder, not on an upward arch.

[lefthook31]

I'm speaking of all three actually... Ali, like Lewis later, loved to hold and hit. Ali, like Klitschko (esp. Wlad) loved to tie up and clinch, obscenely so. Ali had a few other tricks that the over-awed refs let him get away with. My point is a fighter does not need to be complete to be champion or even great.
Wlad has somewhat recently learned to tie up an opponent well since his loss to Brewster and his work with Steward. Vitali hasnt been tested in a similar manner since his loss to Lewis. I dont think he has improved that part of his game, because he hasnt faced anyone worth a shit since.

[Woddy]

Albert "The Dragon" Sosnowski.

Albert " The Dragon " Sosnowski is an all time great.

[lefthook31]

:patsch

Show me one 5 second stretch of any fight that illustrates Vitali would "crumble". He is one of the physically and mentally toughest fighters to ever step into the ring. Never knocked down, never even badly staggered, but it's a given that Liston will overwhelm him. Because clearly Vitali is not going to pose any more of a challenge than 5'3", 125-pound, china-chinned Floyd Patterson did.

:hat

Vitali has fought noooooooooooooone. Fast forward to about the three minute mark. This is against a guy with one foot in the grave
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[MRBILL]

Was Ali a particularly good infighter?

Good point..... Also, was Ali a good body puncher? Yet, we, well most of us, regard Ali as The Greatest........
:deal:thumbsup:hat

MR.BILL:thumbsup

[MRBILL]

Vitali Klit is a MONSTER!!

MR.BILL

[Seamus]

those people who argue these match-ups emphatically one way or the other need to find a hobby based somewhat more in reality.

pitting two great fighters with enormous physical gifts in a mythical fight does by definition offer many tangents of possibility.

whatever... boring.

[DudeGuyMan]

Never has any heavyweight been acorded as much credibility as Vitally Klitschko in head to head matchups for doing so little.

Oh get out. If he were a hundred years older and had a handlebar mustache, his opponents wouldn't even need to have verified records for you to tell us how awesome he was. He could just punch out some local blacksmith who never boxed before, and you'd tell us how some 19th century newspaper writer (who had never seen a fight before) said it was "smashing fisticuffs" like it means something.

Vitali hasn't captured many imaginations, but he has good power, a solid chin, stamina, strength, and surprising agility given his massive size. He's an absolute H2H monster and would most likely beat the shit out of 95% of everyone anyone can name.

[MRBILL]

Oh get out. If he were a hundred years older and had a handlebar mustache, his opponents wouldn't even need to have verified records for you to tell us how awesome he was. He could just punch out some local blacksmith who never boxed before, and you'd tell us how some 19th century newspaper writer (who had never seen a fight before) said it was "smashing fisticuffs" like it means something.

Vitali hasn't captured many imaginations, but he has good power, a solid chin, stamina, strength, and surprising agility given his massive size. He's an absolute H2H monster and would most likely beat the shit out of 95% of everyone anyone can name.

:thumbsup:deal:bbb:rasta:happy:good

I LOVE IT! Yes, Janitor is VERY partial to OLD FART fighters from way back when America was on horseback to move about town........ Anything modern gets a big ZERO from him.... Why the bias???
:huh:-(:blood

Vitali Klit is a bad-ass Mother who could hold his ground well in ANY era from 1887 to 2010.........:thumbsup:hat

MR.BILL

[MRBILL]

Oh get out. If he were a hundred years older and had a handlebar mustache, his opponents wouldn't even need to have verified records for you to tell us how awesome he was. He could just punch out some local blacksmith who never boxed before, and you'd tell us how some 19th century newspaper writer (who had never seen a fight before) said it was "smashing fisticuffs" like it means something.

Vitali hasn't captured many imaginations, but he has good power, a solid chin, stamina, strength, and surprising agility given his massive size. He's an absolute H2H monster and would most likely beat the shit out of 95% of everyone anyone can name.

Again, screw the shit outta the resume...........:hat In a head-2-head match-up, I think V.K. kicks the shit outta MOST of all the prior heavies who ever boxed / fought dating back to 1887........ SERIOUS!
:bbb

MR.BILL

[Seamus]

Oh get out. If he were a hundred years older and had a handlebar mustache, his opponents wouldn't even need to have verified records for you to tell us how awesome he was. He could just punch out some local blacksmith who never boxed before, and you'd tell us how some 19th century newspaper writer (who had never seen a fight before) said it was "smashing fisticuffs" like it means something.


fucking brilliant. post of the day, week, month and year.

[Fighting Weight]

Okay, so never being knocked down, never being behind on the cards at any stage of any fight, coming into every fight in tip-top shape, taking every opponent seriously - these things do nothing to improve his head-to-head standing against the unproven Sonny Liston?

The question is - what exactly has Liston done to show he can beat Vitali?

You may say that in Vitali's two biggest fights, he quit both times. Once he suffered a potentially career-ending injury during a fight he was dominating, and the other he was keen to fight on with half his face hanging off his skull and a 4-2 lead against Lennox.

But Liston fares worse in his two biggest fights. He was embarrassed in the first fight with Ali, (when he allegedly tried to cheat by smearing ointment on his gloves to blind Ali) and in the second, he took probably the most notorious dive in boxing history, and quit in the first round while completely uninjured.

Sonny Liston NEVER fought a guy who weighed in at over 230 pounds. Not even once. Vitali fights at over 250, and there is no fat on him. He is a GIANT compared to anyone Liston has ever faced. Most of Liston's opponents were under 200 pounds.

Vitali is a different monster than anyone Liston ever faced, and he makes Liston look like a midget as well. I don't say that Liston CAN'T win, but there is nothing at all on his resume that tells me he is EXPECTED to win. On paper, Vitali's case for this matchup appears MUCH stronger.

:hat

The Lewis fight was only 4-2 in the judges opinion....in reality it could easily have been scored 3-3 or even 4-2 to Lewis. That is the best fighter VITLAY ever faced and he was way over the hill.

VITLAY was also down a round against Hide before he landed the KO blow, and he was staggered badly against Sanders (and Lewis) so this iron chin bullshit needs to be dropped from the argument. McCall had an iron chin...VITLAY isn't even close to that level of toughness as he's proven with his bitch-quit job against Byrd, and his doctor-assisted quit-job against Lewis.

Don't get me wrong, VITLAY might stand a chance in this fight, but it's a close one. A VERY close one, Liston was a real animal.

[MRBILL]

The Lewis fight was only 4-2 in the judges opinion....in reality it could easily have been scored 3-3 or even 4-2 to Lewis. That is the best fighter VITLAY ever faced and he was way over the hill.

VITLAY was also down a round against Hide before he landed the KO blow, and he was staggered badly against Sanders (and Lewis) so this iron chin bullshit needs to be dropped from the argument. McCall had an iron chin...VITLAY isn't even close to that level of toughness as he's proven with his bitch-quit job against Byrd, and his doctor-assisted quit-job against Lewis.

Don't get me wrong, VITLAY might stand a chance in this fight, but it's a close one. A VERY close one, Liston was a real animal.

Lewis was NOT past his better days in 2003...... Lewis was more so a slob at 256 pounds.... All Lewis' fault there......... Lewis was fine and a killer just ONE year earlier in Tennessee against a shot Tyson.......... Lewis took Kevin Johnson / Vitali Klit lightly............. AGAIN! Lewis' fault..........

I had Klit up 4 to 2 after 6 rds against Lewis in 2003............ Okay, yes, the cut occurred.... It happened..... That's boxing..... BUT! V.K. was kickin' some major ass in that epic battle on regular HBO..... V.K. has since proven his metal in every bout since then...........
:deal:thumbsup

MR.BILL:hat

[Fighting Weight]

Vitali has fought noooooooooooooone. Fast forward to about the three minute mark. This is against a guy with one foot in the grave
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

That video is still fucking hilarious to this day :rofl:rofl:rofl

"VITLAY won the event"

Yeah, right. With that face? I think not.

[Fighting Weight]

Lewis was NOT past his better days in 2003...... Lewis was more so a slob at 256 pounds.... All Lewis' fault there......... Lewis was fine and a killer just ONE year earlier in Tennessee against a shot Tyson.......... Lewis took Kevin Johnson / Vitali Klit lightly............. AGAIN! Lewis' fault..........

I had Klit up 4 to 2 after 6 rds against Lewis in 2003............ Okay, yes, the cut occurred.... It happened..... That's boxing..... BUT! V.K. was kickin' some major ass in that epic battle on regular HBO..... V.K. has since proven his metal in every bout since then...........
:deal:thumbsup

MR.BILL:hat

All bullshit.

Lewis TKO6...fat slob and over the hill Lewis....

Take from that what you will, and re-assess this so-called 'greatness' that you bestow on the bum that is VITLAY.

"but.....he's TALL and HEAVY, he must be a great fighter, right?"

Fuck it I'm out of here, can't be bothered :patsch

[MRBILL]

All bullshit.

Lewis TKO6...fat slob and over the hill Lewis....

Take from that what you will, and re-assess this so-called 'greatness' that you bestow on the bum that is VITLAY.

"but.....he's TALL and HEAVY, he must be a great fighter, right?"

Fuck it I'm out of here, can't be bothered :patsch

Like The Terminator said in the hotel room to the clerk in 1984: "Fuck You, Asshole!"
:fire

MR.BILL

[Jear]

Lets take a quick look at Vitalis "HUGE" size advantage

LISTON KLITSCHKO
6'1 HEIGHT 6'7
215 WEIGHT 245
84 REACH 80
44 CHEST NML 46 1/2
46 CHEST EXP 48
17 1/2 BICEPS 17 1/2
36 WAIST 35 1/2
14 1/2 FOREARM 17
17 1/2 NECK 18 1/4
25 THIGH 23 1/4
16 CALF 17
8 1/2 WRIST 7 1/2
15 FIST 11


The height gives a rather misleading indicator as to the actual size of Liston.

Sonny doesnt need to get inside to beat Vitali, his LONGER reach allows him to out jab Vitali from distance and if Klitschko adopts his usual jab and counterpunch style he will find that hes the one who needs to move into Listons range or he will be on the end of that lethal jab all night.

Sonny either cuts Vitali to ribbons a la the only other guy with a comparable reach and decent skills has done or beats him down until the fight is stopped.

[Unforgiven]

Oh get out. If he were a hundred years older and had a handlebar mustache, his opponents wouldn't even need to have verified records for you to tell us how awesome he was. He could just punch out some local blacksmith who never boxed before, and you'd tell us how some 19th century newspaper writer (who had never seen a fight before) said it was "smashing fisticuffs" like it means something.

:lol:

I must admit, you've encapsulated janitor to a T with that paragraph. :good

[Unforgiven]

See... But you are a "K" bro. hater......:twisted::patsch

MR.BILL

I'm not a hater at all.
I'm just pointing out that Vitali isn't a real world heavyweight champion.
Two men cannot be a real world champion at the same time. I think Wladimir's claim is stronger at the moment.

[Double Jay]

Albert "The Dragon" Sosnowski.

If everyone else is ducking him ...

[TheGreatA]

If everyone else is ducking him ...

Zuri Lawrence would have been a better opponent than Sosnowski. Valuev avoided him in hopes of getting a bigger offer but I'm not sure if anyone else did. Haye? Maybe there's some semblance of truth that the Klitschko brothers don't always offer the best contracts.

[lefthook31]

Oh get out. If he were a hundred years older and had a handlebar mustache, his opponents wouldn't even need to have verified records for you to tell us how awesome he was. He could just punch out some local blacksmith who never boxed before, and you'd tell us how some 19th century newspaper writer (who had never seen a fight before) said it was "smashing fisticuffs" like it means something.

Vitali hasn't captured many imaginations, but he has good power, a solid chin, stamina, strength, and surprising agility given his massive size. He's an absolute H2H monster and would most likely beat the shit out of 95% of everyone anyone can name.
Thats f'ing hilarious! Although I disagree with your second paragraph. Vitali is just too unproven in the trenches, and alot of the past all time greats would be able to drag him into that territory. I want to see the guy actually overcome adversity and win against a top notch opponent before I go calling him a H2H monster against any fighter.

[Haggis McJackass]

Sonny doesnt need to get inside to beat Vitali, his LONGER reach allows him to out jab Vitali from distance

No, it doesn't.

Liston's reach is listed as being 4' longer. But Vitali is at LEAST 6' taller, and fights tall as well, whereas Liston fought shorter. Liston is punching up, he will lose a lot of reach on that. Vitali, on the other hand, is jabbing at shoulder height into Liston's face, which suits him fine.

:hat

[lefthook31]

Vitali is difficult to reach. Not only does he fight tall, he leans back when he jabs and moves making him harder to reach, but take him out of his comfort zone and he becomes 5'7

[TommyV]

Okay, so never being knocked down, never being behind on the cards at any stage of any fight, coming into every fight in tip-top shape, taking every opponent seriously - these things do nothing to improve his head-to-head standing against the unproven Sonny Liston?

Look at his opposition. Woeful. He has a terrible resumé if we compare it to most of the lineal champions. And lineal champion he is not and never was, he's still realming in 'belt-holder' status, if a dominant one in a poor era.

The question is - what exactly has Liston done to show he can beat Vitali?

And when exactly did Vitali beat a guy with power, skills and a freakish reach a lot longer than his own, yet still remained a relatively small target at just 6'0½?

You may say that in Vitali's two biggest fights, he quit both times. Once he suffered a potentially career-ending injury during a fight he was dominating, and the other he was keen to fight on with half his face hanging off his skull and a 4-2 lead against Lennox.

But Liston fares worse in his two biggest fights. He was embarrassed in the first fight with Ali, (when he allegedly tried to cheat by smearing ointment on his gloves to blind Ali) and in the second, he took probably the most notorious dive in boxing history, and quit in the first round while completely uninjured.

And how exactly do you think Vitali would fair with a near-peak Muhammad Ali? It was a bad style match-up for Liston, not to mention he's facing an almost prime version of the greatest HW of all-time.

Sonny Liston NEVER fought a guy who weighed in at over 230 pounds. Not even once. Vitali fights at over 250, and there is no fat on him. He is a GIANT compared to anyone Liston has ever faced. Most of Liston's opponents were under 200 pounds.

And weighing in at 250 gives him an automatic win does it?

Vitali is a different monster than anyone Liston ever faced, and he makes Liston look like a midget as well. I don't say that Liston CAN'T win, but there is nothing at all on his resume that tells me he is EXPECTED to win. On paper, Vitali's case for this matchup appears MUCH stronger.

Liston still has a far bigger reach though. Liston's resumé may be lacking because he ran into the worst possible opponent who ended his reign, and he was then avoided by the top contenders thereafter. And what exactly on Vitali's resumé tells you that he is expected to win?

[Son of Gaul]

and your name screams objectivity in this matter.

Though, I agree somewhat with Janitor. This is a tough, tough match-up either way.
lol

[Mr Butt]

in a three fight series i think liston takes at least one fight, but this for me is a very close match-up

[Kalasinn]

Two questions with obvious answers:

Whom is the better fighter on the inside, the poorly conditioned 37 year old Lennox Lewis from the 2003 fight with Vitali or the devastating, ripped peak 1960 Liston of Williams II?

Then tell me how Vitali coped when Lewis got on inside...

[MRBILL]

I'm not a hater at all.
I'm just pointing out that Vitali isn't a real world heavyweight champion.
Two men cannot be a real world champion at the same time. I think Wladimir's claim is stronger at the moment.

Wladimir has more belts, but that doesn't mean a whole lot to me.... A champion makes the belt worthy; a belt doesn't make a champion.... BUT! I do respect younger bro Wladimir and his claim.....

Wladimir prolly has better technical skill and one shot power, but older bro Vitali is bigger, tougher, meaner and more durable in the chin department....

I dig these dudes.........:deal:bbb:hat

MR.BILL

[MRBILL]

Two questions with obvious answers:

Whom is the better fighter on the inside, the poorly conditioned 37 year old Lennox Lewis from the 2003 fight with Vitali or the devastating, ripped peak 1960 Liston of Williams II?

Then tell me how Vitali coped when Lewis got on inside...

CHRIST! Here we go again........ V.K. was doin' fine in and out with Lewis back in 2003....... V.K. was winning the epic battle in Los Angeles... Okay, Okay, Klit got cut... Shit happens.... But aside from the cut, Klit was doing a number on Lewis in the "Points" department.... Lewis got the TKO win based on the torn flesh on Klit's face / eye, but by no means was Lewis looking awesome in that fight.....

Lewis looked sluggish and gased all through the bout while Klit was on fire and showed the heart of a lion...... It is a fact that Klit's stock skyrocketed following his TKO loss to Lewis.....

OH! Lewis would park Liston like a Cadillac in a time machine...... And so would V.K. as well.........

Liston ain't beating either Lewis or Klit......... Naw.......:-(

MR.BILL

[Seamus]

in a three fight series i think liston takes at least one fight, but this for me is a very close match-up

I would agree with this.

I don't see why these match-ups must be whitewashes either way.

[Kalasinn]

I would agree with this.

I don't see why these match-ups must be whitewashes either way.
I don't view it as a whitewash as it is quite close, however I think Liston might have won 2/3 fights in a trilogy.

@MRBILL ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): I never suggested Liston would beat Lewis, and neither could Vitali (Plus Klit would have a horrible night prime-prime too).

[MRBILL]

I got a lotta 'Liston' stuff on tape............ Liston never proved himself against a hulking monster with skills such as "Lewis or V. Klit." Sonny Liston thought Cleveland Williams and Muhammad Ali were massive dudes, and they were big for the era, but Liston would fail miserably against Lewis and V.K. in a time machine......

All this talk about Liston's jab is hogwash here..... Liston at 6' 1" tall would not get off with his jab on a 6' 5" Lewis or a 6' 7" Klitschko like he was accustomed to doing against shorter and lighter dudes of the 50s and 60s...... Of course Liston would land his share of jabs in a proposed fight with either modern day monster / hulk, but not to the effect in which he'd be able to set-up his right cross and take control of the bout....

Liston lunged and missed a lot against Ali in 1964 / '65...... YES! Ali was far faster with his hands and feet than either Lewis or Klit ever was or is, but Liston would once again find himself lunging and winging punches while losing leverage by punching upward to hit some paydirt......

In a time machine, both "Lewis and Klit" hammer Liston for stoppages........ Peace....

MR.BILL

[TheGreatA]

Old Liston against tall opponents:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


[Only registered and activated users can see links]


[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Not claiming that any of these men were comparable to Lewis or Vitali in anything other than height but the films might be of some indication on how Liston would have gone on about fighting Vitali Klitschko or Lennox Lewis.

[MRBILL]

Old Liston against tall opponents:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


[Only registered and activated users can see links]


[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Not claiming that any of these men were comparable to Lewis or Vitali in anything other than height but the films might be of some indication on how Liston would have gone on about fighting Vitali Klitschko or Lennox Lewis.

I have all that footage on tape....... Quality stuff there........ BUT! As you said, them dudes are not in the same class as "Lewis or Klit."

In a way it would be like saying Sammy Peter can easily handle tall guys cuz he KO'd 6' 10" Julius Long in one round on ESPN....... I have that farce on tape....... I'll swear to God and sonny Jesus that Jules Long froze like a rabbit and willfully dropped to the floor upon being love tapped by Peter..... A smelly "Tank Job" there...... A horrid match overall...... However, that's typical for ESPN...

MR.BILL:thumbsup:deal:bbb:hat

[TheGreatA]

I have all that footage on tape....... Quality stuff there........ BUT! As you said, them dudes are not in the same class as "Lewis or Klit."

In a way it would be like saying Sammy Peter can easily handle tall guys cuz he KO'd 6' 10" Julius Long in one round on ESPN....... I have that farce on tape....... I'll swear to God and sonny Jesus that Jules Long froze like a rabbit and willfully dropped to the floor upon being love tapped by Peter..... A smelly "Tank Job" there...... A horrid match overall...... However, that's typical for ESPN...

MR.BILL:thumbsup:deal:bbb:hat

Julius Long is possibly the most fragile fighter I've ever seen. You wouldn't expect an over 7 feet tall, 250-300 lb fighter to be flattened on the canvas but Long is in almost every single one of his fights.

Peter did struggle with B-class Jameel McCline, the only half-decent super heavyweight he fought outside of the Klitschko brothers (whom he lost to). The rest of his opponents were around 6 feet tall overweight fighters. I think he would be troubled by the likes of Tony Thompson also because he is slow, crude and easy to hit. He really doesn't have any of the skill to make his way in close in order to use that vaunted strength of his. He'll just keep plodding forward and eat jabs with no plan B.

Now Liston was criticized for being slow but atleast in his case it took a young Ali to make him look slow in comparison.

[Fighting Weight]

Like The Terminator said in the hotel room to the clerk in 1984: "Fuck You, Asshole!"
:fire

MR.BILL

Like Ron Jeremy said in Cumfart Cocktails 6....."suck my balls, bitch" :D

[MRBILL]

Like Ron Jeremy said in Cumfart Cocktails 6....."suck my balls, bitch" :D

You rotten bastard.:deal

MR.BILL

[Pusnuts]

V Klit beats the crap out of any version of Liston

Liston does slightly better than Rahman with his better jab but still cant put a dent in the Klit and gets worn down and stopped around round 10

[Polymath]

V Klit beats the crap out of any version of Liston

Liston does slightly better than Rahman with his better jab but still cant put a dent in the Klit and gets worn down and stopped around round 10

This whole thread is proof that you can be a fan of boxing, follow it closely, even devolop some factual knowledge about it, enjoy it enough to join a forum to talk about it, and still have absolutely zero instincts for the sport, and no ability to discern the quality of what you are watching at all. Sorry guys, bust most of you are borderline retarded. :yep

[MRBILL]

V Klit beats the crap out of any version of Liston

Liston does slightly better than Rahman with his better jab but still cant put a dent in the Klit and gets worn down and stopped around round 10

Goddamn right.....:thumbsup:deal

MR.BILL:hat

[Pusnuts]

This whole thread is proof that you can be a fan of boxing, follow it closely, even devolop some factual knowledge about it, enjoy it enough to join a forum to talk about it, and still have absolutely zero instincts for the sport, and no ability to discern the quality of what you are watching at all. Sorry guys, bust most of you are borderline retarded. :yep

Actually I have an excellent record in picking fights, much above the average.

Im no student of the old-timers but V Klit is very underrated , hes horrible to watch but has there ever been a HW so champ so hard to hit, aside from his other physical advantages?
Liston that Ali fought gets knocked out mid to late, younger faster Liston would make it a good fight.

[Fighting Weight]

You rotten bastard.:deal

MR.BILL

I do my best :good

[Fighting Weight]

Actually I have an excellent record in picking fights, much above the average.

Im no student of the old-timers but V Klit is very underrated , hes horrible to watch but has there ever been a HW so champ so hard to hit, aside from his other physical advantages?
Liston that Ali fought gets knocked out mid to late, younger faster Liston would make it a good fight.

Shame you don't study the modern fighters like you do the old guys. If you did you'd know that VITLAY never fought Rahman - in fact he shamelessly ducked him :lol:

[Pusnuts]

Did he, fark I forgot they didn't fight, tbh Ive been out of the loop for a few weeks and havent watched much boxing for a while due to busy weekends, when I get into the groove I usually pick em pretty well hehe

Feeble excuse, Ill quit the thread while Im behind but I think the point stands. I think a prime Rahman and mid 1960s Sonny Liston are quite similar actually, Liston a better jab and more game on the inside but similar styles and build and both with good reach for their height.

[Haggis McJackass]

This whole thread is proof that you can be a fan of boxing, follow it closely, even devolop some factual knowledge about it, enjoy it enough to join a forum to talk about it, and still have absolutely zero instincts for the sport, and no ability to discern the quality of what you are watching at all. Sorry guys, bust most of you are borderline retarded. :yep

Oh yes, what kind of moron could possibly think, even for a second, that a giant boxer who:

barely ever gets hit flush,
has never been KDed,
never been behind on the cards in a fight
owns the highest KO% in history
and who dominates the best available opposition into his late 30s

could, under any circumstances, hope to be a match for a man who is half a foot shorter, 30 pounds lighter, with questionable heart, who never beat an ATG himself, missed out on 50 years of boxing and training evolution, who was used to beating up on cruiserweights, and who never even saw an opponent anywhere near the size of Vitali.

:hat

[Jear]

No, it doesn't.

Liston's reach is listed as being 4' longer. But Vitali is at LEAST 6' taller, and fights tall as well, whereas Liston fought shorter. Liston is punching up, he will lose a lot of reach on that. Vitali, on the other hand, is jabbing at shoulder height into Liston's face, which suits him fine.

:hat

so while VK leans back further away his shorter reach is more effective???
Liston was not only a great jabber but a brutal body puncher. Liston is not head hunting hes jabbing at VKs chest and ripping into his long midsection

[Fighting Weight]

Oh yes, what kind of moron could possibly think, even for a second, that a giant boxer who:

barely ever gets hit flush,
has never been KDed,
never been behind on the cards in a fight
owns the highest KO% in history
and who dominates the best available opposition into his late 30s

could, under any circumstances, hope to be a match for a man who is half a foot shorter, 30 pounds lighter, with questionable heart, who never beat an ATG himself, missed out on 50 years of boxing and training evolution, who was used to beating up on cruiserweights, and who never even saw an opponent anywhere near the size of Vitali.

:hat

I suspect you're taking the piss, I really don't know where to start with all that bullshit :lol:

For a start he was legitimately KD'd against fossil Sanders.

Barely gets hit flush? Watch the first round of his fight with bum Hide, and pretty much every round against Lewis, not to mention his last couple of rounds with the HW killer that is Chris Byrd :lol:

VITLAYS record is all smoke and mirrrors...when it comes down to the final analysis the facts will speak for themselves, he had 2 fights against 2 decent fighters and lost them both. Sure he dominated bums for the rest of the time, but so fucking what?

[Seamus]

VITLAYS record is all smoke and mirrrors...when it comes down to the final analysis the facts will speak for themselves, he had 2 fights against 2 decent fighters and lost them both. Sure he dominated bums for the rest of the time, but so fucking what?

Yeah, he should have sought out that group of chinny cruiserweights upon which Liston made his legacy. Then he would have beaten some true greats.

Please, please, please, can we bring up the great hunk of man meat "Big Cat" Williams and talk of his dimensions and physique? Whilst not mentioning that he couldn't really fight? That's my favorite turn of discussion in these matters.

[Pusnuts]

His record is misleading as he and his brother fought eurobums for quite some time before fighting for a real belt. Lewis fought for the WBC after about 21 fights

Sure he can be hit but ATG Lewis is the only one who has really got to him with any frequency, Liston had good reach but too many of the revisionists dont consider that the modern hypothetical opponents might make so bold as to hit back while they are being schooled with the wisdom of the ancients

[cuchulain]

While Vitali barely scrapes the bottom of my top twenty, on account of his lack of notable wins, head to head is a different matter. I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of fighters I'd favour over him.

[Pusnuts]

I suspect you're taking the piss, I really don't know where to start with all that bullshit :lol:

For a start he was legitimately KD'd against fossil Sanders.

Barely gets hit flush? Watch the first round of his fight with bum Hide, and pretty much every round against Lewis, not to mention his last couple of rounds with the HW killer that is Chris Byrd :lol:

VITLAYS record is all smoke and mirrrors...when it comes down to the final analysis the facts will speak for themselves, he had 2 fights against 2 decent fighters and lost them both. Sure he dominated bums for the rest of the time, but so fucking what?

Sanders KD is debateable, perhaps it was flash KD, perhaps not, I dont think it was personally. In either case the fact thats the closest hes been to touching canvas speaks volumes.

Hide is no bum, he was a decent boxer with good power and extreme speed but just had a hilariously bad chin, but for that he would have gone some places.

[Haggis McJackass]

I suspect you're taking the piss

I am not.

I really don't know where to start with all that bullshit :lol:

Better refute none of it then, eh?

For a start he was legitimately KD'd against fossil Sanders.

Show me the video of the ref giving him the count.

EVEN IF I give you that, so what? One flash knockdown, and if you watch it he was up on steady legs at the count of 1, 2 at the most. He got up to win every round of the rest of the fight, until he won by stoppage.

And that is IT for his career, in terms of knockdowns, stoppages or even being visibly hurt.

Barely gets hit flush? Watch the first round of his fight with bum Hide, and pretty much every round against Lewis, not to mention his last couple of rounds with the HW killer that is Chris Byrd :lol:

So you laugh at me for saying he barely ever gets hit flush. Then to destroy my statement, you use as your examples ONE round of a fight, then his fight against 6'5", top-3 HW ATG Lennox, and two rounds that Vitali fought with a potentially career-ending shoulder injury.

Oh, the shame I feel for advancing such a worthless argument that Vitali is difficult to catch clean.

I guess Mike Tyson's defence was bullshit too, huh? Because HW killer Buster Douglas tagged him at will start to finish.

VITLAYS record is all smoke and mirrrors...when it comes down to the final analysis the facts will speak for themselves, he had 2 fights against 2 decent fighters and lost them both.

You could equally say that Vitali was beating 1 very good fighter (Byrd) and 1 undeniable ATG until he unluckily got injured mid-fight.

You want facts? Here is a fact. There is only ONE way shown to defeat Vitali. And that is, stay in there while he wins rounds and hope that he suffers a serious injury before the end of the 12th.

That's it.

Nobody has come close to beating him on points, nobody has come close to knocking him out.

Sure he dominated bums for the rest of the time, but so fucking what?

You think Ali, Tyson and co only fought other ATGs???

:rofl

Vitali fought in a weak era. But he faced the best challenges available to him and ducked nobody. And he DOMINATED his competition. He didn't find himself miles behind on the cards heading into the last round against light-heavy Billy Conn. He didn't get brutally destroyed over 10 rounds by Buster Douglas. He didn't get knocked down 3 times against Ron Lyle, didn't come within one punch of a KO defeat to Bert Cooper, didn't need his cornerman to bail him out against 185 pound Henry Cooper.

ALL of these heavyweight champs I mentioned (Louis, Tyson, Foreman, Holyfield, Ali - big enough names for you?) struggled with, were heavily KDed by, or LOST TO fighters on the level of Arreola, Sanders or worse. Not Vitali. He shuts them out every time. That is where his greatness lies.

:hat

[Haggis McJackass]

Old Liston against tall opponents:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


[Only registered and activated users can see links]


[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Not claiming that any of these men were comparable to Lewis or Vitali in anything other than height but the films might be of some indication on how Liston would have gone on about fighting Vitali Klitschko or Lennox Lewis.

Wepner was 6'5" and fought short. He weighed in at 228 against Liston.

Zech was 6'5", 226.

McMurray was 6'4, 210.

So none of them come within 3 inches or 20 pounds of Vitali. He is to those guys what Lewis was to Holyfield.

Also one of those clips shows Liston fighting a 5'8", 195 pound opponent in his last fight before Patterson 1. :rofl

:hat

[maverock]

Vitali would take Liston apart over 8-9 rounds. No doubt about it. Liston was great for his era, but would have much difficulty landing on Vitali giving the reach and height difference.

[MRBILL]

When I do my ATG rankings I really do NOT go by the guys resume. I go by who I feel is a better fighter and who would kick the other guys ass in a fight. It may be true that V.K. really has only 'Lewis' on his record who is truly great, but I do rank V.K. in at # 7 on my all-time heavyweight list because I feel he would beat the piss outta roughly 85% of all the former champs dating back to 1887 in a time machine / zone......

V.K. may appear slightly mechanical and robotic, but he fights tall, hits hard, owns a great chin and has good stamina with a damn good jab..... He is lethal.... Very few ex-heavies could kick that guys ass.... In MY OPINION!

MR.BILL

[Pusnuts]

I agree, its rare to find the combination of chin and stamina in such a big HW, I dont even like the Klits much but hes tough to beat. I certainly cant see what prime Liston can do other than make things close with the jab.
Hes monstrously strong and durable compared to the HWs of Sonny's day.

[McGrain]

Please, please, please, can we bring up the great hunk of man meat "Big Cat" Williams and talk of his dimensions and physique? Whilst not mentioning that he couldn't really fight?.


How the fuck do you go 78-13 without being able to fight? Are you serious?

[McGrain]

This whole thread is proof that you can be a fan of boxing, follow it closely, even devolop some factual knowledge about it, enjoy it enough to join a forum to talk about it, and still have absolutely zero instincts for the sport, and no ability to discern the quality of what you are watching at all. Sorry guys, bust most of you are borderline retarded. :yep


:lol:

[McGrain]

Obviously i've got Liston, but I think it would be a really ugly, crap fight. Vitali could certainly win a fight like that against Sonny.

[PetethePrince]

Obviously i've got Liston, but I think it would be a really ugly, crap fight. Vitali could certainly win a fight like that against Sonny.

At least you admit your predictability.

I kid. :lol: :bbb

[MRBILL]

The Hell?

MR.BILL

[Rock0052]

How the fuck do you go 78-13 without being able to fight? Are you serious?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Williams' record really weak against top 10 fighters? I'm not saying he couldn't fght by any stretch, but it's a pretty inflated 78-13 when it looks to me he's got more losses against good fighters than wins.

[Muchmoore]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Williams' record really weak against top 10 fighters? I'm not saying he couldn't fght by any stretch, but it's a pretty inflated 78-13 when it looks to me he's got more losses against good fighters than wins.

Williams doesn't have a ton of wins over top ten fighters. But his fights with Machen, and Terrel twice show that he was a legitimate, very good fighter. He was very avoided and for good reason, he was high risk and the reward didn't quite add up. It's a shame because there are very few heavyweights that have the power and speed that he had.

The only guys he lost to at his best was Terrell (who he also knocked out) and Sonny Liston. Drawing with a boxer like Eddie Machen is very respectable and moves his stock up as well. He would of blasted out Folley who I also have a lot of respect for and would of taken out Patterson as well imo if given a title shot. Patterson-Williams would of been good.

[Polymath]

Oh yes, what kind of moron could possibly think, even for a second, that a giant boxer who:

barely ever gets hit flush,
has never been KDed,
never been behind on the cards in a fight
owns the highest KO% in history
and who dominates the best available opposition into his late 30s

could, under any circumstances, hope to be a match for a man who is half a foot shorter, 30 pounds lighter, with questionable heart, who never beat an ATG himself, missed out on 50 years of boxing and training evolution, who was used to beating up on cruiserweights, and who never even saw an opponent anywhere near the size of Vitali.

:hat
You have no idea what you are talking about.:lol: Vitali doesn't have a jab. He throws a snap jab that has no snap on it. He looks to you like this 10 foot tall unstoppable machine because hes throwing a jab at the latest espn fighter on a roll who can't slip jabs or counter or block or do anything. He fought Lewis (who himself always struggled against jabbers) and his head was rolling all over the place every time Lennox threw a jab.

In fact anyone who talks about 'training evolution' (50 years of it!) and how tall (giant!) Vitali is clearly is trolling. You got me.

[anut]

vitali klit get dicked hard by the modern day asshole / assholes'..................

V.k. Is fucking great! He is the man at heavyweight............. Nobody from any era just walks through this dude........ Nobody!!! V.k. Is so scary, i'm currently writing a new "frankenstein" script built especially just for him........... Word!!

Mr.bill:deal

prime george foreman woulda fuked this dude up badly

[Muchmoore]

prime george foreman woulda fuked this dude up badly

I don't like Vitali's straight shots with his height against Foreman...

[MRBILL]

Freaky, but fuck it...... I think a 70s Foreman who lacked skills and guile prolly gets stopped by a 30 something Vitali Klit in a time zone.... Foreman has never really fought dudes who were taller than his 6' 4" inch frame.... NO! Gerald Cooney is not the answer.... Cooney in 1990 at 231 "Gaunt" pounds and "Pale" as a ghost still had a jab, power and improved mobility, thanks to Gilberto Clancy, but his chin and durability was at its worst........

Foreman at age 40 actually has a better shot at beating the current champion Vitali Klit based on his improved skills and stamina, thanks to the eyes' of Charles Shipes and Angelito Dundee..... YES! Foreman was heavier and slower at age 40, but he was calm, cool, collected and knew what the fuck he was doing in the ring like a real solid General..... The Foreman of the 70s was a mere powerful amateur.........

MR.BILL

[SuzieQ49]

Never has any heavyweight been acorded as much credibility as Vitally Klitschko in head to head matchups for doing so little.

:good:good:good:good:good:good:good


It's sad isn't it?

Liston would have eaten Vitali for supper and spit out his bones.

[he grant]

:good:good:good:good:good:good:good


It's sad isn't it?

Liston would have eaten Vitali for supper and spit out his bones.

Absofuckinglootly !

[frankenfrank]

Oh get out. If he were a hundred years older and had a handlebar mustache, his opponents wouldn't even need to have verified records for you to tell us how awesome he was. He could just punch out some local blacksmith who never boxed before, and you'd tell us how some 19th century newspaper writer (who had never seen a fight before) said it was "smashing fisticuffs" like it means something.

Vitali hasn't captured many imaginations, but he has good power, a solid chin, stamina, strength, and surprising agility given his massive size. He's an absolute H2H monster and would most likely beat the shit out of 95% of everyone anyone can name.
an exact describe of some of the classic forum members and their attitude and reasoning

[SuzieQ49]

an exact describe of some of the classic forum members and their attitude and reasoning

Hey Frank...



[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Seamus]

an exact describe of some of the classic forum members and their attitude and reasoning

yes, this is a choir here and it only wants to hear the same tired old song. you have to take their "knowledge" with a sense of humor and rather large grain of salt.

[SuzieQ49]

yes, this is a choir here and it only wants to hear the same tired old song. you have to take their "knowledge" with a sense of humor and rather large grain of salt.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[McGrain]

:lol:

[RUSKULL]

Not really, it should scream reality, specially the first part. I wouldnt put Quitali in top20 H2H let alone give him a chance to beat Liston. Let's look at his best accomplishments; He couldnt beat a fat, unprepared, unmotivated, worst LL ever at the end of LL's carrer. Hell he couldnt last longer with him then old, shot Tyson. He quit againts a feather fisted opponent beacuse his shoulder hurt (near the end of the fight), when great champions of the past fought on with broken arms. And his most recent accomplishment has been going 10 rounds with a fat, unskilled bum in Arreola, who Liston would dispose of in a single round. Aside from Quitali's size and rather below average skill set, what does he have? The world has gotten full of incredibly delusional people. :-(
His brother WALDO ´´dont hit me with more then one punch at a time or I shit my pants and you have to smell it then`` or in other words MrPanicAttack has more power and skill, but his glass jaw and mental toughness in the size of a peanut would mean he is H2H even worse.
And if you need proof that the HW devision is at an all time low, just look at the top10 and then look at the fighters who are in that top10. :-(

Release the hate...................

[tommygun711]

despite the reach and size advantage, I think Liston takes this one by stoppage.
He has power and skill advantages, and Vitali really doesn't hit that hard compared to Liston. Both klitschko bros get stopped by Liston IMO, especially wladimir, because of his glass chin.

[BUDW]

vitali wins.taller,stronger and i would even say more agile than liston.with his height he would neutralize listons reach.


Byrd is just 6 ft tall he did all right

[ticar]

byrd was way behind cards before vitali quit

[Fighting Weight]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

:rofl:rofl:rofl

:yep

[Fighting Weight]

byrd was way behind cards before vitali quit

This 'cards' concept really has to be explained time and time again to Klit-ites doesn't it....

VITLAY himself made the cards irrelevent when he quit, simple as that. He chose to lose, because deep down he's a playground bully who can dish it out but can't take it - and when you can't take any more against Chris Byrd then that shit tends to stick.

[McGrain]

Being ahead whilst quitting with two rounds left makes LESS sense than qutting whilst behind with two rounds left.

[SuzieQ49]

Being ahead whilst quitting with two rounds left makes LESS sense than qutting whilst behind with two rounds left.

:good


Especially when that much smaller opponent has such a weak punch he couldn't knock a sick infant off a potty seat.

[punchy]

Vitali is no Ali he is easier to hit and Liston has long arms and an awful lot of power, I say Liston.

[choklab]

I have never been a fan of vitali but I am coming to accept he is a hard man to beat since he refuses to lead. refuses to exchange or step up unless the guy is helpless. his brother is even more cautious.

Liston at least went for it but does vitaly tick all the boxes for a certain ko win for sonny? I think not. hes not lighter than sonny. hes not shorter and his reach is comparable to sonny's.

a lot of what klitcschko brings to the table is a winning formular when you have height weight and reach on your opponent.

both guys quit but both showed bravery also. both are strong and both like things in their favour.

its a prety even fight. liston was decked by marshal and ali so he could be hurt. klitchsko could be cut. I think vitaly was taken to the edge and burriedthe demons of his own quitjob against sanders. i lean toward klit but id love sonny to blast him.

[tommygun711]

Liston by ko. I don't think this would last Long because of vitali's cut problem. he would be cut to shreds with sonnys punches.

[SuzieQ49]

Liston would destroy Vitali.

[LondonW2]

Difficult these comparisons with HW boxing, due to pure difference in size.

No doubt VK would win, awkward style, very very hard puncher!, with huge size advantage.

[My2Sense]

Never has any heavyweight been acorded as much credibility as Vitally Klitschko in head to head matchups for doing so little.

Except maybe the guy he's matched with in this thread.

[janitor]

Except maybe the guy he's matched with in this thread.

I have to beg to differ there.

Liston beat the best fighters of his era and dominated most of them. Vitally has picked up some decent scalps but his resume is more about who he didn't beat in his era than who he did.

It basicaly turns on how you rate Corrie Sanders, Kirk Johnson and Sam Peter

[My2Sense]

Oh yes, what kind of moron could possibly think, even for a second, that a giant boxer who:

barely ever gets hit flush,
has never been KDed,
never been behind on the cards in a fight
owns the highest KO% in history
and who dominates the best available opposition into his late 30s

could, under any circumstances, hope to be a match for a man who is half a foot shorter, 30 pounds lighter, with questionable heart, who never beat an ATG himself, missed out on 50 years of boxing and training evolution, who was used to beating up on cruiserweights, and who never even saw an opponent anywhere near the size of Vitali.

:hat

I don't agree with every single thing said here, but on the whole this is a good point.

There's certainly valid criticisms that can be made of Vitali, but the double standard shown here when comparing him to Liston is blatant and absurd.

[My2Sense]

Liston beat the best fighters of his era ...

Not quite true. The best fighters of Liston's era were Patterson, Ali, and Johansson, and he only beat one of them. The notion that Liston "beat the best" or "cleaned out" his era is something of a myth used to exaggerate his legacy today.

[janitor]

Not quite true. The best fighters of Liston's era were Patterson, Ali, and Johansson, and he only beat one of them. The notion that Liston "beat the best" or "cleaned out" his era is something of a myth used to exaggerate his legacy today.

OK well Patterson who you acknowledge as one of the three couldnt get out of the first round against him in two outings. He was probably somewhat better than the version of Michael Spinks that Mike Tyson beat at this stage.

Liston offered to fight Floyd Patterson and Ingemar Johansen back to back on the same night, but Johansen could not be persuaded to take part.

Ali acording to most people on this site is the greatest heavyweight of all time, and Liston basicaly took the first fight with one arm out of action.

If Liston was a bully he was certainly a verry confident one.

Now a list of the top contenders of Vitally Klitschko's era that he did not beat would be a verry long one indeed. It might seem harsh to list every top fighter that he did not face during his career, but that is basicaly what we do for the old timers.

[SuzieQ49]

Not quite true. The best fighters of Liston's era were Patterson, Ali, and Johansson, and he only beat one of them. The notion that Liston "beat the best" or "cleaned out" his era is something of a myth used to exaggerate his legacy today.


Your post is a myth. Liston cleaned out the era from 1958-1963. late 50s-early 60s belonged to liston. Ali was not apart of that era. Liston beat 4 out of the 5 best heavyweights of the era Floyd Patterson, Eddie Machen, Zora Folley, and Cleveland Williams. All of these men were in their primes. The only one he missed out, johansson, avoided fighting Liston.


Name me 5 heavyweight champions who defeated 4 of the 5 best heavyweights of their era?

[tommygun711]

Not quite true. The best fighters of Liston's era were Patterson, Ali, and Johansson, and he only beat one of them. The notion that Liston "beat the best" or "cleaned out" his era is something of a myth used to exaggerate his legacy today.

no he fought a lot of the top contenders of his era. he had a pretty
good legacy too. after all who is really expected to best a prime Ali. that's not bad losing to him twice.
ingemar ducked Liston.
so did Cooper. I really think Liston had a good legacy as he beat folley, WilliamsX2, PattersonX2, wepner, harris, and a lot of others.

[janitor]

On a side note, Liston might just have been the best equiped fighter in history to take apart the modern superheavyweights.

He had the range to reach them, but was still short enough to duck under their punches, while they could only get away by going backwards. He was a much better techician than any of the superheavyweights.

Liston didn't realy have many weakneses as a fighter either technicaly or psychologicaly. His only tangible one is that his handspeed was unexceptional.

[hhascup]

I also agree that Liston was the best heavyweight during the late 1950's til the early 1960's. He was the most feared fighter in the world. Boxing experts were comparing him with Louis and Dempsey. When he fought Ali the 1st time, no one gave Ali a chance, or hardly no one. I believe this Sonny Liston, the one that fought from the late 50's to the early 60's would have given almost anyone a hard time. Ali just had the style and speed to offset him.

On a side note, several years ago I had to go to Grand Central Station in New York City, where I had to announce and introduce Wladimir Klitschko, Calvin Brock and Laila Ali.

It was GREAT! They each gave a 1/2 hour workout and people all over the Station came over to watch as I kept announcing them and the show.

They had a section for the fans and another section just for the press. The boxers gave there workout on the press side. Brock was their 1st, followed by Ali.

Before I introduced Klitschko I was told by his brother Vitali, that Wladimir would like to have the mic after I introduced him. So he walked over to me and I handed him the mic. He then walked over to the otherside and started talking to all the fans that were there. The fans were taking pictures and he talked for several minutes and they gave him a nice hand.

After his workout he talked to the press, as did the other boxers, and then went by the fans again. This time he picked a couple of small kids out and told his handler to take them over to the other side to give them something. I couldn't see what they got, but they were very happy.

I thought he and his brother were a real CLASS GUYS, and they both made a Big hit with everyone that was there.

[My2Sense]

Your post is a myth.

No, it's a Fact, and was shown to be so in the post itself.

Liston cleaned out the era from 1958-1963.

No, he didn't start fighting top contenders until 1960. This is exactly the kind of inaccurate mythologizing I was referring to.

late 50s-early 60s belonged to liston.

Again, more inaccurate hyperbole used in place of facts. The late '50s "belonged" to Patterson and Johansson, who held the Title and engaged in the biggest and most anticipated fights in the division at that time.

Ali was not apart of that era.

Yes he was, he was in the top 10 in '61 and a leading contender by late '62.

Liston beat 4 out of the 5 best heavyweights of the era Floyd Patterson, Eddie Machen, Zora Folley, and Cleveland Williams.

Williams wasn't even rated in the top 10, let alone top 5 when Liston beat him. And there's nothing to distinguish him from a number of other fighters that made it into the top 5 at or around that same time, either.

The only one he missed out, johansson, avoided fighting Liston.

Was he "avoiding" him when he offered him a guaranteed $125,000 for a fight, which Liston turned down?

Liston would have to share as much "blame" for the fight not happening as Johansson does.

Name me 5 heavyweight champions who defeated 4 of the 5 best heavyweights of their era?

Using your prior definitions of "era" and "best," I could name:
Ali
Louis
Johnson
Marciano
Frazier
Tyson
Lewis

...just off the top of my head.

If you consider Walcott as having beaten Louis in their first fight, then that's another name you could add to the list as well.

[My2Sense]

no he fought a lot of the top contenders of his era.

He fought exactly four top contenders in his career: Folley, Machen, Patterson(in the rematch), and Ali. I personally wouldn't call that "a lot." Harris was rated just outside the top 5 when they fought, and the rest of his opponents were fringe contenders at best. Williams didn't become a notable contender until a year or so after their fights.

after all who is really expected to best a prime Ali.

He wasn't fighting a prime Ali. Ali was still a work in progress then, and was just barely getting by guys like Doug Jones, Billy Daniels, and Henry Cooper. For that reason, Liston actually was expected to best him - twice.

that's not bad losing to him twice.

It is when you blatantly quit to him both times.

[SuzieQ49]

Highlighted in Red contenders Liston beat

1958 Ring Magazine

Floyd Patterson, Champion

1. Ingemar Johansson
2. Nino Valdes
3. Zora Folley
4. Henry Cooper
5. Willie Pastrano
6. Archie Moore
7. Eddie Machen
8. Brian London
9. Sonny Liston
10. Mike DeJohn


1959 Ring Magazine

Ingemar Johansson, Champion

1. Zora Folley
2. Floyd Patterson
3. Sonny Liston
4. Henry Cooper
5. Eddie Machen
6. Billy Hunter
7. Roy Harris
8. Mike DeJohn
9. Joe Erskine
10. Alex Miteff



Now if that's not what you call cleaning out the best contenders of the late 1950's, then I don't know what is.

[SuzieQ49]

He fought exactly four top contenders in his career: Folley, Machen, Patterson(in the rematch

Williams was rated in the top 7 for four years in a row 1961-1964. Even though Liston did not defeat him in these exact years, he beat the same version of Williams who fought during these years..therefore he get's the same credit. Unless you want to argue Williams was better in 1961 than he was in 1960 :lol:

I see the point ur making, and u make it every time. You are extremely specific with who beat who in what particular month of what specific year, and what was that fighter rated on the day they fought them. Well, sometimes it doesn't work like that. Williams was not rated when liston beat him, but we all know liston beat the best version of C williams. within a year C williams would break the rankings and stay there for four years in a row. This clearly counts as a big victory for liston. Billy Hunter and Johnny Summerlin, two other young fighters who would crack the top 10 within a year of liston beating them. Liston deserves major credit for beating these guys while they were coming into their own. A loss to liston did not deter their careers.


Bethea, DeJohn, Henry Clark, were all top 10 rated when liston beat them too. Harris wasn't the only other one rated.

[My2Sense]

Now if that's not what you call cleaning out the best contenders of the late 1950's, then I don't know what is.

Beating them at the time they actually were highlighted on those lists would be, for starters. For example, beating Nino Valdes after he's been beaten by two others and dropped nearly out of the rankings altogether does not have the same significance as beating him when he was actually at the #2 spot and still considered a world class fighter.

The argument that a fighter can somehow "retroactively" clean out an era is a new one and seems to have been created expressly to build up Liston's legacy. The truth is if he had had a longer and/or more impressive run at the top level, those kind of arguments would be unnecessary.


I see the point ur making, and u make it every time. You are extremely specific with who beat who in what particular month of what specific year, and what was that fighter rated on the day they fought them. Well, sometimes it doesn't work like that. Williams was not rated when liston beat him, but we all know liston beat the best version of C williams. within a year C williams would break the rankings and stay there for four years in a row. This clearly counts as a big victory for liston.

As I said, even if you want to look at it that way, the claim that Williams was among the 5 very best fighters of that entire era (late '50s to early '60s) is still a questionable one. There were other fighters who came along in that time span that earned comparable rankings and/or scored as good or better wins.

Bethea, DeJohn, Henry Clark, were all top 10 rated when liston beat them too. Harris wasn't the only other one rated.

I didn't say he was; I just said that what other contenders Liston did beat were mostly fringe contenders, either just inside or just outside the top 10.

---------------

BTW, why do you claim I "banned" you from posting on my Youtube vids?

[DocDevil]

I would pick Sonny to take it,sound boxing skills,has the size and power,VK might be surprised a man that height would have such a reach.

[mcvey]

On a side note, Liston might just have been the best equiped fighter in history to take apart the modern superheavyweights.

He had the range to reach them, but was still short enough to duck under their punches, while they could only get away by going backwards. He was a much better techician than any of the superheavyweights.

Liston didn't realy have many weakneses as a fighter either technicaly or psychologicaly. His only tangible one is that his handspeed was unexceptional.
Liston's weakness was bad foot work.Other than that I agree with your post.He beats both Klits ,and emphatically imo.

[frankenfrank]

Enough , Vitali wins by way of mid to late stoppage , just like he did against fighters who were just as good as Liston but never got the opportunity to face a lightheavyweight who holds the lineal and undisputed heavyweight title. Kirk Johnson did something almost as impressing when he stopped Terry McCgroom who was even bigger than Patterson , and yes , P4P I know he was worse , but this is H2H , and as I said he was bigger. So why don't you think Kirk Johnson , Sam Peter , Arreola , Danny Williams , Dicky Ryan , Orlin Norris , Corrie Sanders and then some more could not abuse a lightheavyweight who happened to win the vacant title against an almost completely untested and unproven cruiserweight after even losing a fight out of three in a trilogy ?
Liston was not better than Vitali's opposition , that's why he won't do any better then them. He will get intimidated , humiliated , humbled , abused , and then stopped.

[Kalasinn]

Liston was not better than Vitali's opposition , that's why he won't do any better then them. He will get intimidated , humiliated , humbled , abused , and then stopped.
:rofl Your hilarity knows no bounds.
Of Vitali's opposition, who do you honestly think beats Liston?
Oh and don't bother mentioning badly faded 2003 Lewis, that version brutally beat prime Vitali, but he would have been stopped by prime Liston.

[Muchmoore]

Liston didn't realy have many weakneses as a fighter either technicaly or psychologicaly. His only tangible one is that his handspeed was unexceptional.

I think his footspeed hurt him more than his handspeed, and he could be timed with right hands. But yeah, Liston may very well have the claim to being the most well rounded HW in history.

[mcvey]

Enough , Vitali wins by way of mid to late stoppage , just like he did against fighters who were just as good as Liston but never got the opportunity to face a lightheavyweight who holds the lineal and undisputed heavyweight title. Kirk Johnson did something almost as impressing when he stopped Terry McCgroom who was even bigger than Patterson , and yes , P4P I know he was worse , but this is H2H , and as I said he was bigger. So why don't you think Kirk Johnson , Sam Peter , Arreola , Danny Williams , Dicky Ryan , Orlin Norris , Corrie Sanders and then some more could not abuse a lightheavyweight who happened to win the vacant title against an almost completely untested and unproven cruiserweight after even losing a fight out of three in a trilogy ?
Liston was not better than Vitali's opposition , that's why he won't do any better then them. He will get intimidated , humiliated , humbled , abused , and then stopped.


That settles it!

You picking Vitali confirms it!





Liston wins by ko!:good