Pacman vs Ray Leonard at 147

[Longhhorn71]

Ray handled southpaws in the amateurs and Ayub Kalule ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) at 154 lbs, but I think the Pacman may be just as fast of hand & foot as Ray, plus Pac is just as tough.

The trainers would be just about equal too.

It may be that only the really tall welters such as Hearns or Tito, or the big hitters like Cuevas, are the ones that can beat Pacman at welter, (excluding Sugar Ray Robinson who is considered to be the very best).

[Caponecartels]

you funny man. :lol:

[Longhhorn71]

you funny man. :lol:

Don't put Ray up on too high of a mantle at 147.

He beat Hearns, and Benetiz, but Duran took him to the ropes and worked him over.

That southpaw stance gives EVERYONE a hard time....."The punches just come from odd angles" is stated over and over again....even by the great fighters.

Many of the Greats wouldn't even fight lefties.

[redrooster]

Hey Longhorn, good to see you back.

[Addie]

Ray Leonard had faster hands than Manny...more power than Manny...and he was bigger than Manny...what do you think happens?

[Longhhorn71]

Ray Leonard had faster hands than Manny...more power than Manny...and he was bigger than Manny...what do you think happens?

Manny gets inside and swells Ray's eyes close.,,,just for starters.

[Caponecartels]

Don't put Ray up on too high of a mantle at 147.

He beat Hearns, and Benetiz, but Duran took him to the ropes and worked him over.

That southpaw stance gives EVERYONE a hard time....."The punches just come from odd angles" is stated over and over again....even by the great fighters.

Many of the Greats wouldn't even fight lefties.

And Duran is whole nother beast than Manny.
I see a Leonard victory around the 7th or 8th.

[redrooster]

As for the fight between Leonard and Pac,...
Busy fighters who are shorter and that unleash rapid fire combinations, sharp blows seem to trouble Sugar. I'm sure Dundee would tell him what to look out for and devise a more cautious approach, trying his luck from long range (stick and move) looking for a points win. Any mistakes, if he gets caught at the end of a shot in the middle of a rumble, Sugar will find himself in trouble

[Longhhorn71]

And Duran is whole nother beast than Manny.
I see a Leonard victory around the 7th or 8th.

I respect your opinion.

[PetethePrince]

Leonard can out-box him. But it's not as easy as many may project.

[smitty_son408]

Leonard can out-box him. But it's not as easy as many may project.

Yes it is

[Caponecartels]

Leonard can out-box him. But it's not as easy as many may project.

He can also knock him out.
I'd lean more on that.

[Addie]

I only thought I'd see people entertaining the idea of Manny beating Leonard at 147 on the General. Spellbinding. Pacquiao getting inside on Leonard and swelling his eyes up? Leonard can knock you out with his right or his left, and he had slightly faster hands than Manny...I'd be over early. Cotto is no Leonard.

[Longhhorn71]

I only thought I'd see people entertaining the idea of Manny beating Leonard at 147 on the General. Spellbinding. Pacquiao getting inside on Leonard and swelling his eyes up? Leonard can knock you out with his right or his left, and he had slightly faster hands than Manny...I'd be over early. Cotto is no Leonard.


And David "Boy" Green isn't a Pacman.

Ray really only began to fill out in strength when he began to move up in weight above 147 lbs.

[Addie]

And David "Boy" Green isn't a Pacman.

Ray really only began to fill out in strength when he began to move up in weight above 147 lbs.

At 147, Manny ain't no Wilfred Benitez...at 147, he ain't no Thomas Hearns...and he sure as shit ain't no Marvin Hagler, all fighters that lost to the great Ray Leonard, as you know. Perhaps you can educate the rest of us and tell us how you think Pacquiao could win the fight? He throws those wide flurries against Leonard, sure, some are going to land, but he'll be countered just as he did early against Cotto, only Leonard had legitimate knockout power in either hand. Pacquiao gets outboxed if he tries to work behind a jab, and he gets knocked out if he tries to engage Ray. Too big, too fast, hits hard...and is just too good.

But as I say, if you do indeed think Manny has a chance...how?

[redrooster]

I only thought I'd see people entertaining the idea of Manny beating Leonard at 147 on the General. Spellbinding. Pacquiao getting inside on Leonard and swelling his eyes up? Leonard can knock you out with his right or his left, and he had slightly faster hands than Manny...I'd be over early. Cotto is no Leonard.


Addie, how do you arrive at Leonard stopping Pac early? It took him 9 to stop Howard and 11 to stop Bonds. Green was a punching bag, stationary, there to be hit, no punch and nothing to make any opponent respect him. Even palomino knocked him cold 3 years earlier

[Addie]

Addie, how do you arrive at Leonard stopping Pac early? It took him 9 to stop Howard and 11 to stop Bonds. Green was a punching bag, stationary, there to be hit, no punch and nothing to make any opponent respect him. Even palomino knocked him cold 3 years earlier

The same way Pacquaio was able to stop Hatton early, when Kosta Tsyzu couldn't even dent the same man. The great fighters raise to the occasion the better the quality of the opponent in my judgment, and if Manny is going to come forward leaving himself open against Ray Leonard, he'll be hit by a shot that's going to put him flat on his back. If it ain't early, it'll happen in the middle rounds.

This should be interesting. How does Pacquiao beat Ray, Rooster? Keep in mind, I don't value your opinion in the slightest...everyone knows your agenda by now. Still be entertaining to here you formulate something from cuckoo land.

[PetethePrince]

He can also knock him out.
I'd lean more on that.

I don't think so. Of course, he could. But Manny's elusiveness, movement, and upper-body fluidity coupled with his offensive attack would make for an exciting bout. SRL has proven way more as a Welterweight and has the speed and experience to out-box someone like Pac. Along with some physical advantages to boot. I don't see a KO though.

[hagman1989]

Don't put Ray up on too high of a mantle at 147.

He beat Hearns, and Benetiz, but Duran took him to the ropes and worked him over.

That southpaw stance gives EVERYONE a hard time....."The punches just come from odd angles" is stated over and over again....even by the great fighters.

Many of the Greats wouldn't even fight lefties.

"duran took him to the ropes and worked him over"
duran would do that to manny no doubt
i personly think sugar just boxes for 12 rounds on his way to a decision win

[Addie]

I don't think so. Of course, he could. But Manny's elusiveness, movement, and upper-body fluidity coupled with his offensive attack would make for an exciting bout. SRL has proven way more as a Welterweight and has the speed and experience to out-box someone like Pac. Along with some physical advantages to boot. I don't see a KO though.





Ray Leonard stands at 5'10, sporting a 178cm reach. Manny, on the other hand, stands at 5'6 and a half, sporting a reach of 170cm. This is all as referenced by Boxrec, which can on the rare occasion offer some help. Now, even if the two were the same size I think Ray does everything better than Manny. Now when I factor in everything Ray brings to the table, and he's sporting a huge size advantage? ...Only one winner, and I don't envision Manny seeing out 12...definitely not 15.

[Addie]

"duran took him to the ropes and worked him over"
duran would do that to manny no doubt
i personly think sugar just boxes for 12 rounds on his way to a decision win

I think Ray knows he would be criticized for not imposing himself on a smaller man coming up, and would try and make a statement. Leonard beats everyone Pacquiao has beat at 140 and higher. It goes without saying.

[redrooster]

The same way Pacquaio was able to stop Hatton early, when Kosta Tsyzu couldn't even dent the same man. The great fighters raise to the occasion the better the quality of the opponent in my judgment, and if Manny is going to come forward leaving himself open against Ray Leonard, he'll be hit by a shot that's going to put him flat on his back. If it ain't early, it'll happen in the middle rounds.

This should be interesting. How does Pacquiao beat Ray, Rooster? Keep in mind, I don't value your opinion in the slightest...everyone knows your agenda by now. Still be entertaining to here you formulate something from cuckoo land.

I didnt say Leonard couldnt beat him. I went with him on points but I'm not going to intentionally create a scenario where only Pac leaves himself open to harm so he conveniently gets taken out early. That goes both ways. rising to the occasion also applies to opponents. Terry Norris is a great example

[Addie]

I didnt say Leonard couldnt beat him. I went with him on points but I'm not going to intentionally create a scenario where only Pac leaves himself open to harm so he conveniently gets taken out early. That goes both ways. rising to the occasion also applies to opponents. Terry Norris is a great example

:lol: I can only laugh at the Norris reference. You funny bastard.


Pacquiao has left himself open in even his most efficient, and brutally one-sided performances. Last night being a great example. It's all well and good us all remembering the fight being one sided, but go and re-watch the first 5 rounds. Cotto was winning round 4 with 20 seconds on the clock, where he got caught by a left hand that Leonard would have chuckled at. Cotto was winning round three before and after the flash knockdown. I know it's silly to say, well if those shots didn't land he would have won the rounds, but my point is pretty clear, Pacquiao was getting hit...and Cotto ain't no Leonard, not in terms of power, skills, size, stamina, ...nothing.

If you ain't going to formulate an argument against mine, just leave it out Rooster. You feel Leonard wins on point, I feel Manny gets brutally stopped early or in the mid-rounds. We can disagree on that much, because as anyone of us should be willing to admit, we can revise the history of the sport all day, and we can read the textbooks, but nobody actually knows what is going to transpire in a Boxing match until it happens. So cliche, but it is indeed the theater of the unexpected. For Manny to beat Ray wouldn't be unexpected, it'd be a damn near miracle.

[TIGEREDGE]

if pac beats pbf, his chances of him beating leonard cannot be taken lightly. still fancy leonard late in a classic

[Addie]

if pac beats pbf, his chances of him beating leonard cannot be taken lightly. still fancy leonard late in a classic

A classic beat down, absolutely.

How many rounds does Cotto from last night go with prime Leonard? Think about it.

[VX.Nefarious]

RL by 9th rd KO

[Xplosive]

What happened last night does nothing to change my opinion of this fight. Leonard woulda stopped Manny. Pac would be completely assed out vs Leonard cause in addition to Ray being bigger, stronger, and more skilled... he was FASTER as well. Leonard KO 7.

[Xplosive]

if pac beats pbf, his chances of him beating leonard cannot be taken lightly. still fancy leonard late in a classic

Floyd is no Leonard.

[The Wanderer]

Much as I love Pacquiao and I don't particularly care for Leonard, Sugar would dominate this fight.

Leonard by mid to late KO.

[MRBILL]

No way Packer handles Hearns at 147 in 1980 / '81...... Styles make fights, and Hearns KO's Packy with long, booming right hands to the head........... I see SRL doing much of the same, but in a more methodical manner........ Hearns KO 5 Packy....... Leonard KO 8 Packy......... Both Tommy and Ray get the job done........... Peace......

MR.BILL

[MrMarvel]

Don't put Ray up on too high of a mantle at 147.

He beat Hearns, and Benetiz, but Duran took him to the ropes and worked him over.

And Hearns had him almost completely confused through 12 rounds. Don't forget that. Leonard lucked out when Hearns fell apart.

[MrMarvel]

Ray Leonard had faster hands than Manny...more power than Manny...and he was bigger than Manny...what do you think happens?

He's bigger, but he doesn't have faster hands. Leonard could pull good shines. Manny has speed with power.

[WhataRock]

As the Pac train chugs along matches like this become more competitive in my eyes...Hatton and Cotto dont enhance Manny's legacy as much as some people make out but the way he dealt with them was impressive.

He still takes a schooling from Ray though...I dont think he even makes the rounds..But Manny is getting to that point where he deserves to be put into these matches, he is in his prime now, he is the best Ive ever seen him.

[Addie]

As the Pac train chugs along matches like this become more competitive in my eyes...Hatton and Cotto dont enhance Manny's legacy as much as some people make out but the way he dealt with them was impressive.

He still takes a schooling from Ray though...I dont think he even makes the rounds..But Manny is getting to that point where he deserves to be put into these matches, he is in his prime now, he is the best Ive ever seen him.

I appreciate the artistry as much as anyone, and Pacquiao is doing great things, but anyone who thinks Pacquiao beats Ray at 147lbs is dreaming. He's probably the second best to have ever campaigned there. I don't even think it lasts that long, nor would it be very competitive. Ray gets Cotto out of there inside 5, and beats every single dude who's campaigned at Welterweight since his own reign. Ability wise, and excuse me if you think I'm being overzealous here, but Ray has a claim to be top 5 ever. The only thing stopping him from reaching those heights in a P4P list was his lack of fights...let's be honest.

[Addie]

And Hearns had him almost completely confused through 12 rounds. Don't forget that. Leonard lucked out when Hearns fell apart.

Is that supposed to be relevant to the discussion? Hearns was a freakishly tall and powerful Welterweight. Manny Pacquiao doesn't compare with Hearns in any way shape or form. Also, Hearns fell apart as a result of shots that were landed by Ray..it's a little game we call Boxing.

I can deal with Pacquiao vs Curry, Trinidad, and those level of Welterweights...but Ray is on another level to those guys.

[Doppleganger]

I thought this thread was a joke. You mean, it isn't??? :huh You're telling me Pacman beats Leonard when someone like Thomas Hearns wasn't able to??? :lol:

[Unforgiven]

Sugar Ray Leonard has long been the most overrated welterweight of all-time.

But Manny Pacquaio is more so now.

[teeto]

Leonard would batter him.

And Leonard's hands were faster, Pacquiao might be busier with consistent speed, but Leonard could throw a punch faster.

[redrooster]

:lol: I can only laugh at the Norris reference. You funny bastard.


Pacquiao has left himself open in even his most efficient, and brutally one-sided performances. Last night being a great example. It's all well and good us all remembering the fight being one sided, but go and re-watch the first 5 rounds. Cotto was winning round 4 with 20 seconds on the clock, where he got caught by a left hand that Leonard would have chuckled at. Cotto was winning round three before and after the flash knockdown. I know it's silly to say, well if those shots didn't land he would have won the rounds, but my point is pretty clear, Pacquiao was getting hit...and Cotto ain't no Leonard, not in terms of power, skills, size, stamina, ...nothing.

If you ain't going to formulate an argument against mine, just leave it out Rooster. You feel Leonard wins on point, I feel Manny gets brutally stopped early or in the mid-rounds. We can disagree on that much, because as anyone of us should be willing to admit, we can revise the history of the sport all day, and we can read the textbooks, but nobody actually knows what is going to transpire in a Boxing match until it happens. So cliche, but it is indeed the theater of the unexpected. For Manny to beat Ray wouldn't be unexpected, it'd be a damn near miracle.



What else are you going to do, deny that it happened? Norris wasn't afraid to hit leonard, that's why he pulled off a miracle.

And since we're on the subject of Ray being hit, he wasn't that hard to nail. You think Leonard would chuckle after swallowing some leather?

Was he chuckling after trial horse Howard layed him on the canvas?

Did he laugh off Norris' blows to the face? What about Duran in round two of their fight? Geraldo in round 3. Lalonde?


FYI, no fighter laughs off blows. And while Cotto does not match Leonard in skills as a boxer, he is surely his equal or better in the other catagories and still Pac overwhelmed him.

Dundee and leonard would play it smart. They take few chances and will box early. That's how most boxers approach fights. If they see what they like and Pac isnt posing too much trouble he'll open up on him later but I see this going to the late rounds at the least

[bigphilla1]

pacquiao can confuse people with da amount of punches he throws from his southpaw stance but leonard throws quicker combinations n dat wud confuse pacquiao.....leonard late stoppage

[Maxmomer]

Pacquiao loses. Leonard is one of the best welterweights of all time head to head. Duran beat him, but Duran is better than Manny and it was the best performance of his career and it was still a close fight.

[Xplosive]

Sugar Ray Leonard has long been the most overrated welterweight of all-time.

But Manny Pacquaio is more so now.

Who exactly beats Ray Leonard at welter then genius?

[PowerPuncher]

LMAO, Manny doesnt have the defense to get inside against Leonard, he gets hit on the way in and countered and timed silly by the better boxer. No it isnt completely easy for Leonard but he may completely dominate. He has 4inches in height and about the same or more in reach, while probably being the bigger stronger puncher.

The fact is I can't think of 1 thing Manny does better than Ray. The Pacquaio fever will be over in 6months anyway

[Unforgiven]

Who exactly beats Ray Leonard at welter then genius?

Roberto Duran did.

[BoxingFanNo1]

Leonard on his worst day UD.
On his best Ko inside 7.

Look I love what the little guys doing for boxing ATM but lets keep things in perspective here.

[MrMarvel]

Who exactly beats Ray Leonard at welter then genius?

Robert Duran?

[MrMarvel]

Who exactly beats Ray Leonard at welter then genius?

Yeah, Duran.

And Hearns beat him over 12 rounds at welterweight. Lucky for Ray it was scheduled for 15 rounds and Hearns overtrained.

Do you really think Leonard beats Robinson? Or Armstrong? Or Gavilan? I don't. He may beat Griffith the first time, but I doubt he would beat him in the rematch - if Leonard gave him a rematch. Leonard would have his hands full with Napoles, Whitaker, and Basilio.

Leonard is being overrated at welterweight if one can't answer for themselves the question you asked us, Xplosive. Leonard was a terrific fighter. No question. Technically proficient, fast hands, smart ring general, and a durable fighter in this prime. But he was not what you appear to make him out to be.

[Robbi]

Yeah, Duran.

And Hearns beat him over 12 rounds at welterweight. Lucky for Ray it was scheduled for 15 rounds and Hearns overtrained.

Do you really think Leonard beats Robinson? Or Armstrong? Or Gavilan? I don't. He may beat Griffith the first time, but I doubt he would beat him in the rematch - if Leonard gave him a rematch. Leonard would have his hands full with Napoles, Whitaker, and Basilio.

Leonard is being overrated at welterweight if one can't answer for themselves the question you asked us, Xplosive. Leonard was a terrific fighter. No question. Technically proficient, fast hands, smart ring general, and a durable fighter in this prime. But he was not what you appear to make him out to be.

You need to have a look in the mirror. :good

[lefthook31]

This question can be better answered after the Mayweather fight.

[ricardoparker93]

I only thought I'd see people entertaining the idea of Manny beating Leonard at 147 on the General. Spellbinding. Pacquiao getting inside on Leonard and swelling his eyes up? Leonard can knock you out with his right or his left, and he had slightly faster hands than Manny...I'd be over early. Cotto is no Leonard.


leonard doesnt have faster hands than manny and you can say he is 'too big' but how many times have people said that over the last few years? :rofl

[Addie]

Roberto Duran did.

Oh. a top 5 ATG? Who was outclassed in both of the return bouts? Exactly. Paquiao ain't moving up to 147lbs and beating a fighter of Ray's calibre, any other opinion is dog turd.

[Addie]

leonard doesnt have faster hands than manny and you can say he is 'too big' but how many times have people said that over the last few years? :rofl

Yes he does, he throws his shots with better technique and accuracy, and he generates more power in my judgment. You're a clown. Ray isn't just bigger than Manny, he's better in every single facet of the game. If they were the same size. hell, if Ray was smaller than Manny I still favor him by knockout.

Holy fucking shit, Pacquiao beats Miguel Cotto...taking fair bit of leather himself, and now he can beat the second best 147lbs to have ever graced the ring. Wake up guys, please.

[Addie]

This question can be better answered after the Mayweather fight.

Not at all, it can be answered now. Because Ray is better than Floyd too.

[Unforgiven]

Oh. a top 5 ATG? Who was outclassed in both of the return bouts? Exactly.

They only fought one return bout at welterweight. And I dont know if Duran was "outclassed". I mean, if he's top 5 ATG as you say (do you mean p4p also?), how can he get "outclassed", he's in the very top class.

Anyway, I was asked who can beat Leonard at welterweight, and Roberto Duran is undisputedly the first and correct answer to give.

Paquiao ain't moving up to 147lbs and beating a fighter of Ray's calibre, any other opinion is dog turd.

I dont think Pacquiao beats Leonard either, though I wouldn't write him off completely or dismiss anyone who thinks he can.

[Manassa]

You know when Cotto was running from Pacquiao, who had trouble landing?

Leonard would be moving like that the whole night, except that whilst on the move, he'd be throwing punches. He was a natural, versatile boxer on another level from Cotto.

[Flea Man]

In the opening rounds, Cotto was pumping the jab and landing shots. That combo he threw through Mannys guard to head and body was telling. Leonard could rip fast, varied and powerful combinations, maintain any distance he needed, and stop Pac in about 6. And I HATE Leonard.

[itrymariti]

This would be rather easy. Pacquiao would probably beat a lot of Welterweights, but Ray Leonard is not one of them. Pacquiao is fundamentally a brawler; he may have a fairly versatile arsenal and a lot of speed, but he's there to be outboxed by someone with the skills. Leonard would stick him and move, make him miss and make him pay.

As for a stoppage: Leonard could probably get one if he wanted one, but it's more likely he'll just box for the distance. Pacquiao seems to be able to handle a decent shot at 147, anyway.

[Flea Man]

You know when Cotto was running from Pacquiao, who had trouble landing?

Leonard would be moving like that the whole night, except that whilst on the move, he'd be throwing punches. He was a natural, versatile boxer on another level from Cotto.

Beat me to it :good

[Manassa]

As much as I despise Leonard also, he's a bit of an ace. Something you can pull from your sleeve to thrash the Trinidads, Mayweathers and Pacquiaos without going too far back in history.

[teeto]

As much as I despise Leonard also, he's a bit of an ace. Something you can pull from your sleeve to thrash the Trinidads, Mayweathers and Pacquiaos without going too far back in history.

:lol::lol::lol:

[Bad_Intentions]

Leonard by decision.

[Flea Man]

Love it when people make a pick without a stylistic analysis, through lack of knowledge no doubt.

[teeto]

Love it when people make a pick without a stylistic analysis, through lack of knowledge no doubt.
Leonard by stoppage.

[Flea Man]

:rofl yeah but at least I know you can provide something if prompted.

[teeto]

:rofl yeah but at least I know you can provide something if prompted.

:lol:

[Addie]

Ray doesn't just do everything better than Manny, he's stylistically a nightmare. Pacquiao has trouble with fighters who can work effectively on the backfoot, and he often gets countered when he leads. Cotto was countering him with left hooks and the jab was landing at will. Ray has a faster and better jab than Miguel Cotto, and his right hand packs a lot more power than Juan Manuel Marquez's, who had Pacquiao stunned and hurt in both of their fights...which wasn't too long ago. If Ray forces the fight, I think he gets a stoppage. If Ray wants to box, stick and move, he can win every round.

[Robbi]

Pacman via knockout inside 3 rounds.

[Addie]

Pacman via knockout inside 3 rounds.

STFU. :hi:

[stevebhoy87]

Some people on here think that leonard will use a lot of lateral movement to outbox pacquaio, i don't really see that at all, he'd have no real need to, he'd dance a bit sure but i see him mainly staying in the centre of the ring, letting pac come at him and land shot after shot on him.

Pac a great fighter but he has no advantages against leonard at all and with his less than perfect defence leonard would knock him out in about 8 rounds i believe

[MrMarvel]

You need to have a look in the mirror. :good

I don't need a mirror to see how smart I look.

[laxpdx]

Leonard by UD or late TKO.

[robert ungurean]

I have no doubt Leonard by UD.

[bigphilla1]

This question can be better answered after the Mayweather fight.

the question cannot be answered after the floyd fight ray leonard is a different fighter throws more combos dan floyd

da floyd fight will measure how gud pacquiao is in my eyes

[bigphilla1]

Pacman via knockout inside 3 rounds.


wat are you high?

[natonic]

And Hearns had him almost completely confused through 12 rounds. Don't forget that. Leonard lucked out when Hearns fell apart.

You're full of shit man. Blinded by your hatred for Leonard. Tommy fell apart because Ray took it away from him. Period. Pac is a great fighter and I think very shortly it could be argued that his resume could surpass Ray's, but head to head Leonard stops him. Too big, too strong, just as fast, better technically, equal (at least) desire and killer instinct.

[Jaws]

I'm not a huge SRL fan, but I give credit where it's due. At the least he could outbox Manny to a comfortable decision, and I think he could stop him if he wanted to. Bigger, just as fast, with heart and killer instinct among the best the division has ever seen. SRL is a couple classes above Cotto, simply put.

Another way to look at it: Pac hasn't faced anyone in the same league as Hearns, Duran, or Hagler. THREE ATG's that Leonard defeated.

[Gesta]

H2h = Leonard
P4P = Pacman

[Addie]

H2h = Leonard
P4P = Pacman

:lol:

[Gesta]

:lol:

Addie,

Can you tell me who you picked to win in Cotto vs Pacman? and how?

[Dempsey1238]

I think Pacman has the tools to beat SRL.

IT would be a close fight either way imo.

I dont see SRL just walking though Pacman.

[Addie]

I think Pacman has the tools to beat SRL.


:lol:

[Addie]

Addie,

Can you tell me who you picked to win in Cotto vs Pacman? and how?

Only if you tell me what that has to do with the topic we're discussing? Here's a better question, why don't you explain to the Classic why Pacquiao has done enough, in your mind, to leapfrog Sugar Ray Leonard?

[Dempsey1238]

:lol:


Whats so funny?? Duran did it by just slugging and out brawling SRL.

[Addie]

Whats so funny?? Duran did it by just slugging and out brawling SRL.

Pacquiao ain't no Duran! :patsch Seriously, you've all been smoking some crazy shit.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


A force of nature.

[Dempsey1238]

You might be changing your tune when Pac beats Mayweather.

I belive Pac has the style, will, punch out put, and speed to relly cause problems for SRL.

He is not going to keep Pac off of him. I am thinking Pac is closeing on Armstrong at the movement.

[Gesta]

Only if you tell me what that has to do with the topic we're discussing? Here's a better question, why don't you explain to the Classic why Pacquiao has done enough, in your mind, to leapfrog Sugar Ray Leonard?


Does that mean you picked Cotto, or you just don't want to answer the question?

[Addie]

You might be changing your tune when Pac beats Mayweather.

I belive Pac has the style, will, punch out put, and speed to relly cause problems for SRL.

He is not going to keep Pac off of him. I am thinking Pac is closeing on Armstrong at the movement.

:lol: I never knew how good Miguel Cotto was until he was beat by Pacquiao, promoting the great Filipino into Armstrong status. Spellbinding. Unbelievable.

[Gesta]

Addie,

Who did you pick Cotto or Pacman?

[Addie]

Addie,

Who did you pick Cotto or Pacman?

We can discuss that, go and make a thread in the General about it. I'll chime in sharpish. However, for a thread that's discussing Leonard vs Pacquiao, why don't you back up what you said, and tell us why, in your mind, Manny has leapfrogged Ray Leonard. Educate me. I'm here to learn. What's your criteria? Do you put more stock in titles than names? Do you put more stock weight jumping than overall ability?

[Sweet Pea]

Whats so funny?? Duran did it by just slugging and out brawling SRL.
:lol:

[Sweet Pea]

People are really starting to get carried away, as usual. Pacquiao wouldn't beat Mayweather, much less Leonard.

[Addie]

:lol:

Yup...No defensive maneuvering on Duran's part in any way shape or form, he just ran forward, throwing wild swings.

...Please don't tell me you think Pacquiao has a chance against peak Ray at 147lbs as well, Sweet Pea?

[Jaws]

Addie,

Who did you pick Cotto or Pacman?

What does that prove?

I don't care how knowledgeable you are about boxing, it was a fight no one could definitively call. There were too many unanswered questions, the biggest one being if Pacquiao could carry his power up in weight again (which he did very impressively).

The betting odds were close, and nearly every analyst, regardless of who they picked, admitted it was one of those fights that could truly go either way.

[anarci]

And David "Boy" Green isn't a Pacman.

Ray really only began to fill out in strength when he began to move up in weight above 147 lbs. Wtf:patsch When did you start whatching boxing? Anyone that knows anyting about boxing knows that Leonard's power wasnt the same when he moved up. In fact Leonard was known as a puncher in the amatuers.Leonard never knocked out guys like he did at Welter,the Lalonde knockout was because of accumaliton of shots. Leonard was devasting fighters at Welter.

[jimbeam]

Does that mean you picked Cotto, or you just don't want to answer the question?

he picked cotto.... and mab, and JMM, and EM, and hoya and hatton. am just too lazy too dig his posts but self kill is a bitter ass when it comes to pac. fool is hurting all the time LOL

[Flea Man]

A few of the posters on this thread are indicative of why I don't spend as much time here anymore.

[Gesta]

What does that prove?

I don't care how knowledgeable you are about boxing, it was a fight no one could definitively call. There were too many unanswered questions, the biggest one being if Pacquiao could carry his power up in weight again (which he did very impressively).

The betting odds were close, and nearly every analyst, regardless of who they picked, admitted it was one of those fights that could truly go either way.


It was a simple question.

Well some people picked right some picked wrong, it does not matter if you got it right or not. If some one keeps on picking against Pacman and keeps on getting it wrong then maybe they are underestermating him, or look at his weeknesses instead of looking at his strenths.

Who would have though that Pac could beat Cotto a few years ago?

Then if the same person is laughing at me for "say" picking Pacman over The Hawk in the other thread, but has got Pacman's last "three" fights wrong, then maybe I can "be" right and their picks are not set in concrete.

I do not know that much in boxing, But all the ATG will have tough fight VS each other apart from the odd drubbing and it is odd that some one will laugh at another for thinking different from them.

[stevebhoy87]

I really can't see the argument for pacquaio in this fight, not at all, where exactly does he outgun leonard?

Now pacquaio has been amazing in his last 4 fights, there is no arguments there, however the main reason's behind his victory have come from, his footwork and footspeed to get inside and let his combos go and then move away before his slower opponents can fire back, also from the fact his power has carried up with him.

Now leonard took hearns shots, so i think we can rule out pacquaio's causing him any disconcern. Pac speed is also negated, i think leonard was faster but even if you disagree any superior speed advanage pac may have is negligable, and when you combine this with leonard superior reach and better accuracy when pac is coming flying in he's going to be meet with super fast counter.

If we add all of these facts onto that leonard was a far superior boxer in every way shape and form to someone like cotto who caused pac problems during the fight and marquez who for me beat pac then i can't see any reason to choose pac here.

[teeto]

Leonard would batter him. I don't know why all the insights are being thrown around, they're not warranted.

[Addie]

Leonard would batter him. I don't know why all the insights are being thrown around, they're not warranted.

Not at all Teeto, Pacquiao just beat Miguel Cotto...so that automatically makes him competitive with Ray Leonard, who beat Duran, Benitez and Hearns at that weight...none of the fights going the distance. Leonard has seen it all. He's seen blazing handspeed (Hearns), he's seen unreal amounts of power (Hearns) and he's overcome a definitive boxer (Benitez). Pacquiao has nothing to offer him.

[Addie]

It was a simple question.

It's a simple, irrelevant question.

Well some people picked right some picked wrong, it does not matter if you got it right or not. If some one keeps on picking against Pacman and keeps on getting it wrong then maybe they are underestermating him, or look at his weeknesses instead of looking at his strenths.

By my own admission, I have underestimated Manny Pacquiao, I don't need a delusional Pactard to tell me that. Does that mean he would be competitive with the greatest Welterweight since Ray Robinson? Hell no. Leonard has already seen everything Pacquiao brings to the table and then some. What combination of Leonard's size, skill, speed, and power has Pacquiao ever come across. He won't ever come across it, because like him, Ray was also special. A force of nature.


Who would have though that Pac could beat Cotto a few years ago?


Irrelevant.


Then if the same person is laughing at me for "say" picking Pacman over The Hawk in the other thread, but has got Pacman's last "three" fights wrong, then maybe I can "be" right and their picks are not set in concrete.

Fair point, but you don't ever break down the fights and give any type of reasoning for your argument. I asked you, and I'll ask you again, what justifies ranking Manny Pacquiao over Ray Leonard in a p4p sense?

[MrMarvel]

Tommy fell apart because Ray took it away from him.

This would be true only if there were evidence that Ray took it away from him. You can watch the fight and see that there is no evidence of this. Leonard pushed Hearns down twice. He wobbles in the sixth round, but Hearns recovers and is soon back to outboxing Leonard. Leonard is supposed to be this supreme boxing technician, yet Hearns, except for one brief moment, completely confused him with movement. Hearns clearly overtrained - everybody was commenting on this before the fight - and plainly ran out of gas in the final rounds. He was flopping about not because of Ray Leonard, but because his legs were gone from fatigue. The shot that causes Hearns to fall backwards did not land! Hearns was moving back and couldn't keep his balance. Even when Leonard had Hearns against the ropes he couldn't land the shot that would finish the job. Hearns was never in trouble. Leonard depended on Pearle to step in and stop it, with Hearns completely in charge of faculties against the ropes. You are a total fan boy, incapable of objectivity, if you can't see things so obvious.

[MrMarvel]

Not at all Teeto, Pacquiao just beat Miguel Cotto...so that automatically makes him competitive with Ray Leonard, who beat Duran, Benitez and Hearns at that weight...none of the fights going the distance. Leonard has seen it all. He's seen blazing handspeed (Hearns), he's seen unreal amounts of power (Hearns) and he's overcome a definitive boxer (Benitez). Pacquiao has nothing to offer him.

Fast flurries. It isn't handspeed and angles likes Manny or Roy Jones. And Leonard doesn't carry their power. He does a lot of slapping when he flurries, a lot like Calzaghe. Leonard's power shot was the left hook, which he did not carry up with him. Leonard did not have unreal amounts of power at welterweight. He had good power and was particularly effective against inferior opposition. Against elite competition, the story is different. His stoppage of Hearns, as I explain above, had nothing to with power (unreal or otherwise). It had to do with Hearns overtraining. Leonard never had Hearns in serious trouble in the fight. Duran quit. Leonard did not knock him out of even have him in trouble. The Benitez stoppage was ridiculous.

[MrMarvel]

Leonard was devasting fighters at Welter.

Not really. Hearns was devasating fighters at welter. Leonard was no John Mugabi.

[MrMarvel]

Another way to look at it: Pac hasn't faced anyone in the same league as Hearns, Duran, or Hagler. THREE ATG's that Leonard defeated.

I agree with this. But it must also be pointed out that Duran beat Leonard convincingly. Manny is winning all this fights so far at welterweight. We will see how he does against Mayweather.

[Popkins]

Ray handled southpaws in the amateurs and Ayub Kalule ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) at 154 lbs, but I think the Pacman may be just as fast of hand & foot as Ray, plus Pac is just as tough.

The trainers would be just about equal too.

It may be that only the really tall welters such as Hearns or Tito, or the big hitters like Cuevas, are the ones that can beat Pacman at welter, (excluding Sugar Ray Robinson who is considered to be the very best).

Even from me, this is a "are you serious???"

Leonard by complete and utter domination.

Pacquiao is not a true welter, and Leonard is probably the 2nd best welter of all-time.

Watch Benitez v SRL, SRL v Duran I and II, Hearns v Leonard I.

Do you really believe Pac could overcome the size difference against that fighter?

I don't even consider it a possibility.

[MrMarvel]

I think Pacman has the tools to beat SRL.

IT would be a close fight either way imo.

I dont see SRL just walking though Pacman.

This is the reasonable position at this point. Manny is doing some amazing things right now. The way he darts in and out, throwing punches with tremendous power and speed from all angles with either hand. It's a difficult package to open. We all saw the beating Leonard took from Duran. And we all saw how befuddled he was against Hearns. Leonard would definitely have his hands full against Pac.

[Unforgiven]

I'd just like to say Duran wasn't much bigger than Pacquiao, actually about the same height and reach.
Maybe 7 or 8 pounds heavier in natural weight. Significant, but not severe. And Pacquaio's added weight looks all good.

I'm not saying Pacquiao beats Leonard, or anything like that. But I dont find the "bigger" arguments very convincing.

Pacquiao deserves not to be written of completely. And if the "he's not a real welterweight" even meant anything, Cotto would have beaten him.
They say the same about Mayweather, "he's not a real welterweight". Well, they are real enough AT THAT WEIGHT for us to being calling them the two best fighters in the world, POUND-FOR-POUND.
So, do the math.

[Addie]

Even from me, this is a "are you serious???"

Leonard by complete and utter domination.

Pacquiao is not a true welter, and Leonard is probably the 2nd best welter of all-time.

Watch Benitez v SRL, SRL v Duran I and II, Hearns v Leonard I.

Do you really believe Pac could overcome the size difference against that fighter?

I don't even consider it a possibility.

I favor Leonard even if the two were the same size. Pacquiao is great, but Ray was greater. Some people have been smoking some serious shit in this thread. The only question is how many rounds would Pacquiao endure.

[Addie]

I'd just like to say Duran wasn't much bigger than Pacquiao, actually about the same height and reach.
Maybe 7 or 8 pounds heavier in natural weight. Significant, but not severe. And Pacquaio's added weight looks all good.

I'm not saying Pacquiao beats Leonard, or anything like that. But I dont find the "bigger" arguments very convincing.

Pacquiao deserves not to be written of completely. And if the "he's not a real welterweight" even meant anything, Cotto would have beaten him.
They say the same about Mayweather, "he's not a real welterweight". Well, they are real enough AT THAT WEIGHT for us to being calling them the two best fighters in the world, POUND-FOR-POUND.
So, do the math.

Forget about the bigger arguments, although Leonard was easily bigger than Pacquiao. 4 inches taller, and sporting a significant reach advantage. That said, even if the two were the same size, Leonard does everything better.

Nah..Pacquiao is being written off in abundance in this mythical match-up. Leonard whoops on him for as long as Pacquiao can endure it. I don't give him much chance at seeing out the 6th, personally. If Pacquiao flurries, he's opening to swift counters with either hand. Ray hit hard enough to stop Benitez, and Hearns, and decimate decent opposition in Green and Price. If Pacquiao wants to box, he has already shown he gets hit by a good fast jab at will. Leonard does everything better...just a better fighter, and that coupled with a size advantage spells knockout in my estimation.

[MrMarvel]

Pacquiao is not a true welter, and Leonard is probably the 2nd best welter of all-time.

That's ridiculous. There are several welterweights who are better than Leonard.

[Longhhorn71]

That's ridiculous. There are several welterweights who are better than Leonard.

Featherweight Henry Armstrong went up and kicked Barney Ross's tail at Welterweight.

[MrMarvel]

I have always found it noteworthy that, whereas very few people criticize claims that put Ali at the top of the heavyweights, Robinson at the top of the welterweights and indeed the top of the boxing world, Ezzard Charles unique ability at light heavyweight, or claims concerning Armstrong's singular greatness, a significant proportion of the boxing public is skeptical of the opinion that puts Leonard in such a exalted place as if being seen here by a few people in this thread. And the more learned boxing fans become about Leonard's actual record and abilities, the more skeptical they become about the legend that his fans say fits him. Sometimes hype fades slowly.

The claim that Leonard does everything better than Leonard will be recognized by many learned observers as hyperbole issuing more from wishful desire than actual observation. Leonard did not do better than Manny in darting in and out and landing combinations from different angles with shocking knockdown power. Leonard did not bust up the faces of his opponents the way Manny does. His opponents look like they have been through meatgrinders, and his work is even more impressive in the higher weight classes. Manny is not only fast, but has heavy hands. Yes, it's incredible that a former flyweight titlist could hit that hard, but if he had always been a welterweight we would still be impressed by the combination of his speed and power. The way Manny's punches come out of nowhere with a long punch after forcing his opponent to break and run is something one only sees from fighters of the caliber of Robinson or Jones. Leonard is not on that level. Had he been, then Duran wouldn't have dominated him over 15 rounds and Hearns wouldn't have had him baffled for 12. The proof is in the reality of the ring. All you have to do is watch and learn.

Leonard is good theater, though. And the media has supported him in this because good theater sells papers. It's just that there has been too much water under the bridge. Time wounds all heels.

[MrMarvel]

Featherweight Henry Armstrong went up and kicked Barney Ross's tail at Welterweight.

He completely dominated Ross, even more so than Duran dominated Leonard. Leonard would be in real trouble against Armstrong.

[quintonjacksonfan]

So Pacman beats three welterweights, who had all lost in the prior 18 months
and now he can take SRL? Leonard beat both Hearns & Benitez who were undefeated at the time. He also defeated Duran at welterweight who had not lost in 8 years.
It's a lot harder to beat a fighter who has never lost. That's why Norris does not got the same credit for beating Mugabi & Meldrick Taylor as Hagler and Chavez do

[Dempsey1238]

Whats forgotting, is Ross was a lightweight also, He jump up in weight to the Welterweight crown, so it was not that big of a gap between Ross and Armstrong.

I also think Ross was winded down at that point, the guy had wars with Canzi, McLarin, and others. So it was not relly prime Ross imo. I saw Ross's handspeed drop compare to say Canzi a few years early.

[Addie]

Leonard is good theater, though. And the media has supported him in this because good theater sells papers.


There you have it guys, Leonard was just good theater. It's not like he beat world class all-time great, hall of famers multiple times or anything.

What does Pacquiao do better than Leonard, Marvel? Dart in and out? Why would Ray do that, he was far more effective offensively and defensively than Pacquiao by simply measuring distance.

How does Pacquiao beat Leonard? ...Don't give us a long overdrawn explanation as to why Leonard was, in your mind, theater first, great second, just give us a decent enough analysis to take you seriously.

[teeto]

There you have it guys, Leonard was just good theater. It's not like he beat world class all-time great, hall of famers multiple times or anything.

What does Pacquiao do better than Leonard, Marvel?
He's using Sugar Ray Leonard to describe Oscar De La Hoya.

[Robbi]

Leonard would fuck Pacquaio up, bigtime. :D

[Addie]

Leonard would fuck Pacquaio up, bigtime. :D

Fuckin' tell 'em, Robbi!

[MrMarvel]

You are dishonest. I did not say he was "just good theater." I said he was "good theater." So was Ali. So was Camacho.

We now all have the measure of your personality, Addie. You are a liar.

I have said elsewhere just in the past few days that he was a terrific fighter. The question is whether we let the theater exaggerate the fighter. In the case of Leonard, it does for you. Others among us are more wise than this.

It's not a question of whether a fighter's record shows wins over hall of famers (and here quality cannot be substituted with quantity given how infrequently Leonard stepped into the ring against quality opposition). It's a question of what those wins look like and the character of the losses. An actual examination of the cases show that while Leonard was a terrific fighter, he was not the fighter you believe he is.

Your analysis is clearly warped by fandom. The ease with which you misrepresented my statement proves that truth is less important to you than perception. This is the hallmark of a fanboy. Sober up a bit, asshole. Maybe then you will stop being one.



There you have it guys, Leonard was just good theater.

It's not like he beat world class all-time great, hall of famers multiple times or anything.

What does Pacquiao do better than Leonard, Marvel? Dart in and out? Why would Ray do that, he was far more effective offensively and defensively than Pacquiao by simply measuring distance.

How does Pacquiao beat Leonard? ...Don't give us a long overdrawn explanation as to why Leonard was, in your mind, theater first, great second, just give us a decent enough analysis to take you seriously.

[Addie]

You are dishonest. I did not say he was "just good theater." I said he was "good theater." So was Ali. So was Camacho.

We now all have the measure of your personality, Addie. You are a liar.

I have said elsewhere just in the past few days that he was a terrific fighter. The question is whether we let the theater exaggerate the fighter. In the case of Leonard, it does for you. Others among us are more wise than this.

It's not a question of whether a fighter's record shows wins over hall of famers (and here quality cannot be substituted with quantity given how infrequently Leonard stepped into the ring against quality opposition). It's a question of what those wins look like and the character of the losses. An actual examination of the cases show that while Leonard was a terrific fighter, he was not the fighter you believe he is.

Your analysis is clearly warped by fandom. The ease with which you misrepresented my statement proves that truth is less important to you than perception. This is the hallmark of a fanboy. Sober up a bit, asshole. Maybe then you will stop being one.

I clearly told you that I did not want to hear a long, overdrawn, pretentious explanation as to why Leonard's ability is often exaggerated...in your mind. Instead, I wanted a credible analysis as to why Manny Pacquiao has even a punchers chance in a fight with Ray Leonard at 147lbs? Simple enough instructions. Try again. If you feel like this is a fight won fairly comfortably by the bigger man, then we have no conflict at all.

[natonic]

This would be true only if there were evidence that Ray took it away from him. You can watch the fight and see that there is no evidence of this. Leonard pushed Hearns down twice. He wobbles in the sixth round, but Hearns recovers and is soon back to outboxing Leonard. Leonard is supposed to be this supreme boxing technician, yet Hearns, except for one brief moment, completely confused him with movement. Hearns clearly overtrained - everybody was commenting on this before the fight - and plainly ran out of gas in the final rounds. He was flopping about not because of Ray Leonard, but because his legs were gone from fatigue. The shot that causes Hearns to fall backwards did not land! Hearns was moving back and couldn't keep his balance. Even when Leonard had Hearns against the ropes he couldn't land the shot that would finish the job. Hearns was never in trouble. Leonard depended on Pearle to step in and stop it, with Hearns completely in charge of faculties against the ropes. You are a total fan boy, incapable of objectivity, if you can't see things so obvious.

Sorry man, I don't usually get abusive, but you're truly an idiot. Leonard hit Hearns with body shots that almost came out the other side. That's all the evidence I need. Congratulations. You just vaulted yourself into a small group of posters I don't even deem worth responding to.

[Genesis]

How can some doubters claim that "Leonard does not dart in and out like Pac"?

Doesn't anyone of the doubters remember Duran v leonard II?

Look at the speed and movement.

[MrMarvel]

I clearly told you

Who cares what you tell me or anybody else? You don't run this show. You're a dickhead. I will say any damn thing I want about Leonard. No apologies for having decimated your position, either.

[MrMarvel]

How can some doubters claim that "Leonard does not dart in and out like Pac"?

Doesn't anyone of the doubters remember Duran v leonard II?

Look at the speed and movement.

Right, because Duran didn't have stomach cramps slowing him down that night, leading to him quitting the fight.

Because, as we could all see, Leonard was darting in and out like Manny in Duran v. Leonard I, too.

Don't you folks ever stop and read what you write? You serious can't see your sugar blowing?

[MrMarvel]

Sorry man, I don't usually get abusive, but you're truly an idiot. Leonard hit Hearns with body shots that almost came out the other side. That's all the evidence I need. Congratulations. You just vaulted yourself into a small group of posters I don't even deem worth responding to.

In which round did Leonard's fist almost come out of the other side of Hearns' body.

And why, if I'm in that small group of posters you don't deem worth responding to, did you respond to me? Contradict yourself much? :lol:

You guys are too easy. You mock yourselves.

[Popkins]

I favor Leonard even if the two were the same size. Pacquiao is great, but Ray was greater. Some people have been smoking some serious shit in this thread. The only question is how many rounds would Pacquiao endure.


I don't understand the whole "if they were the same size" thing, and I never will. They weren't the same size. And Ray whips him at welter, and was on a different level in terms of all-time greatness. Why is this thread still going anyway?

[Jaws]

Sorry man, I don't usually get abusive, but you're truly an idiot. Leonard hit Hearns with body shots that almost came out the other side. That's all the evidence I need. Congratulations. You just vaulted yourself into a small group of posters I don't even deem worth responding to.

Marvel is clearly a Leonard hater. I have seen the fight countless times (I own it), and Hearns is obviously one of my favorite fighters......but Leonard hurt/wobbled Hearns nearly every time he got inside on him that fight. This is what forced Hearns to start boxing from the outside in the middle rounds. The power behind Leonard's shots was obvious.

As much as I wish it weren't true, Leonard won that fight, and the stoppage was totally legitimate. To say it wasn't, and that Hearns had it together at that point is downright asinine.

[frankenfrank]

Ray handled southpaws in the amateurs and Ayub Kalule ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) at 154 lbs, but I think the Pacman may be just as fast of hand & foot as Ray, plus Pac is just as tough.

The trainers would be just about equal too.

It may be that only the really tall welters such as Hearns or Tito, or the big hitters like Cuevas, are the ones that can beat Pacman at welter, (excluding Sugar Ray Robinson who is considered to be the very best).
a good question. for me pac vs. a 147 cotto still remained an open question. i believe that a 147 cotto would have at least gone the distance with pac if not stopping him.
so i slightly tend to leonard but may probably be wrong.

[Addie]

I don't understand the whole "if they were the same size" thing, and I never will. They weren't the same size. And Ray whips him at welter, and was on a different level in terms of all-time greatness. Why is this thread still going anyway?

Well, the people seem to be agreeing that Ray would win, and mention his size to be a huge factor. However, I say that even if the size advantage wasn't there, Ray still does everything better, and has the amateur pedigree, the speed, the skill, the power, and the will to win to not only beat Manny Pacquiao but most fighters.

[Addie]

Who cares what you tell me or anybody else? You don't run this show. You're a dickhead. I will say any damn thing I want about Leonard. No apologies for having decimated your position, either.

So you have no analysis. Good. Shut up, then.

[Popkins]

Well, the people seem to be agreeing that Ray would win, and mention his size to be a huge factor. However, I say that even if the size advantage wasn't there, Ray still does everything better, and has the amateur pedigree, the speed, the skill, the power, and the will to win to not only beat Manny Pacquiao but most fighters.

But how could the size advantage not be there? Leonard was physically bigger. Unless you have some machine which can shrink SRL, and then measure how the change in size affects his performance, it is a meaningless impossibility to mention it.

Ray was the greater fighter. Ray would have beaten him. End of story as far as I see it.

[Addie]

But how could the size advantage not be there? Leonard was physically bigger. Unless you have some machine which can shrink SRL, and then measure how the change in size affects his performance, it is a meaningless impossibility to mention it.

Ray was the greater fighter. Ray would have beaten him. End of story as far as I see it.

Leonard wins the fight because he's better in every single department than Manny, not because he sports a 4 inch height advantage. That's the point I'm making.

[cris3000]

To me Leonard is the most complete fighter in history of the sport. I really cant explain why cos it just feels natural n right to have him #1 in my p4p alltime list:( Pac shouldn't even be compared vs Leonard, Pernell Maybe but not Leonard...

[MrMarvel]

Remember how after the Olympics Ray Leonard was the second coming of Sugar Ray Robinson?

Remember how he was dominated by the former lightweight champion of the world? I do. It was the moment when the hype was exposed as just that: hype.

Remember Leonard's puffed up face and teary eyes after 15 rounds of being outboxed and outpunched? Remember how his corner cried in the locker because their man was "robbed"? Remember how people perceived a close fight because they just couldn't reconcile the reality with their wish thinking? I do. It was very revealing of the way many human beings operate. (It's why people elect corrupt and stupid politicians and believe in gods and creationism.)

Would the second coming of Sugar Ray Robinson - "the most complete fighter in the history of the sport" - be on the receiving end of an ass kicking by the former lightweight champion of the world? Robinson faced many world class lightweights and welterweights. Did any of them kick his ass? No, it took a rugged middleweight like LaMotta to do that, and LaMotta took five losses in return. Why? Because Sugar Ray Robinson was the most complete fighter in the history of the sport.

Would "the most complete fighter in the history of the sport" look lost for 12 rounds against Thomas Hearns (but for a brief lapse in Tommy's attention in round 6), an excellent but otherwise multiply-flawed fighter?

See, this is what I am talking about. Ray Leonard was a terrific fighter. He was NOT the most complete fighter in the history of the sport.

Come back to earth ladies and gentlemen. You sound like some of the PacManiacs.

[he grant]

Leonard by mid round TKO.

[JimmyShimmy]

It's not just about the calibre difference. Leonard is a bad style for Pacquiao. Duran could apply pressure more intelligently than Pacman.

[Dempsey1238]

Remember how after the Olympics Ray Leonard was the second coming of Sugar Ray Robinson?

Remember how he was dominated by the former lightweight champion of the world? I do. It was the moment when the hype was exposed as just that: hype.

Remember Leonard's puffed up face and teary eyes after 15 rounds of being outboxed and outpunched? Remember how his corner cried in the locker because their man was "robbed"? Remember how people perceived a close fight because they just couldn't reconcile the reality with their wish thinking? I do. It was very revealing of the way many human beings operate. (It's why people elect corrupt and stupid politicians and believe in gods and creationism.)

Would the second coming of Sugar Ray Robinson - "the most complete fighter in the history of the sport" - be on the receiving end of an ass kicking by the former lightweight champion of the world? Robinson faced many world class lightweights and welterweights. Did any of them kick his ass? No, it took a rugged middleweight like LaMotta to do that, and LaMotta took five losses in return. Why? Because Sugar Ray Robinson was the most complete fighter in the history of the sport.

Would "the most complete fighter in the history of the sport" look lost for 12 rounds against Thomas Hearns (but for a brief lapse in Tommy's attention in round 6), an excellent but otherwise multiply-flawed fighter?

See, this is what I am talking about. Ray Leonard was a terrific fighter. He was NOT the most complete fighter in the history of the sport.

Come back to earth ladies and gentlemen. You sound like some of the PacManiacs.

Welterweight Basilio sure kick some of that ass.

[MrMarvel]

Welterweight Basilio sure kick some of that ass.

Yes. However, I was speaking about Robinson at welterweight and in his prime, not the second coming of Robinson as a middleweight. Robinson was getting old and shopworn by the time he met Basilio. That's not meant to take anything away from Basilio, by the way. He was a welterweight against a fine (by that time) middleweight. Basilio was a hell of a fighter.

[stevebhoy87]

Welterweight Basilio sure kick some of that ass.

When Robinson was miles past his prime. Pre his 3 year break basillo would have not got close to ray, at welter or middle

[Dempsey1238]

When Robinson was miles past his prime. Pre his 3 year break basillo would have not got close to ray, at welter or middle


Not sure on that, Turpin, Robinson, and other swarmers types always gave Robinson problems.

[stevebhoy87]

Not sure on that, Turpin, Robinson, and other swarmers types always gave Robinson problems.

Turpin was physically a bit bigger than carmen though (Basillo was of course a better fighter). I fell its pretty safe to say that if Basillio went close to life and death with a miles past his best robinson in there 2 fights that a prime version would have done significantly better

[Popkins]

Leonard wins the fight because he's better in every single department than Manny, not because he sports a 4 inch height advantage. That's the point I'm making.

Leonard never fought lower than 147, so you can't place him in a hypothetical h2h at a weight he never fought at. Therefore, the only possible weight for him to fight Pac at is 147, because Pac has never fought any higher. At 147, SRL dominates and destroys Pacquiao.

That's the h2h part done.

In terms of p4p greatness, Leonard is in a higher tier, comfortably ahead of Pacquiao as things stand. I have SRL around 14th I think, Pac somewhere between 20 and 30. If Pac beats Mayweather and Mosley, then a re-think may be in order. Until then, it's SRL clearly and indisputably.

Leonard was clearly better at ww than Pac has been at any weight he had fought at.

Those are the only ways possible to compare them, and it's SRL on all counts.

[Addie]

Leonard never fought lower than 147, so you can't place him in a hypothetical h2h at a weight he never fought at. Therefore, the only possible weight for him to fight Pac at is 147, because Pac has never fought any higher. At 147, SRL dominates and destroys Pacquiao.

That's the h2h part done.

In terms of p4p greatness, Leonard is in a higher tier, comfortably ahead of Pacquiao as things stand. I have SRL around 14th I think, Pac somewhere between 20 and 30. If Pac beats Mayweather and Mosley, then a re-think may be in order. Until then, it's SRL clearly and indisputably.

Leonard was clearly better at ww than Pac has been at any weight he had fought at.

Those are the only ways possible to compare them, and it's SRL on all counts.

As countless Guru's would often say in my Morales and Frazier thread a few days back, "I think Frazier would beat Morales if they were the same size", I'm saying the same about these two guys. I'm not proposing they fight at 130lbs, I'm saying that the difference between the two is not 4 inches of height, it's Ray's superiority as a prize fighter.

We're talking about spilled milk though really, because like me, you don't give Manny a chance in hell in this mythical match-up.

[Popkins]

As countless Guru's would often say in my Morales and Frazier thread a few days back, "I think Frazier would beat Morales if they were the same size", I'm saying the same about these two guys. I'm not proposing they fight at 130lbs, I'm saying that the difference between the two is not 4 inches of height, it's Ray's superiority as a prize fighter.

We're talking about spilled milk though really, because like me, you don't give Manny a chance in hell in this mythical match-up.

"I think Frazier would beat Morales if they were the same size" = :nut

SRL beats Pac at 147, and was a better fighter all-round, and is a better fighter in terms of p4p greatness.

Yes, we are in agreement.

Silly thread, I'm sure you'll agree.

[Addie]

"I think Frazier would beat Morales if they were the same size" = :nut

SRL beats Pac at 147, and was a better fighter all-round, and is a better fighter in terms of p4p greatness.

Yes, we are in agreement.

Silly thread, I'm sure you'll agree.

What's most surprising to me is not that this thread exists, but how many knowledgeable posters are taking it seriously. Leonard was an absolute monster at 147lbs, his resume there is simply astounding. Ray would have beat Mosley, De La Hoya, Trinidad, Cotto, throw any Welterweight's name out there, and he beats them in my view...with the soul exception of the original Sugar man. That Marvel guy who was suggesting I've bought into the hype, clearly hasn't sat down and watch Ray systematically outbox and outfight a prime unbeaten 147lbs title holder like Wilfred Benitez. Hype didn't see him cross the finishing line in that fight, his ability did.

[Silver]

it remains to be seen if pacman can even beat floyd mayweather, let alone srl.

[Popkins]

What's most surprising to me is not that this thread exists, but how many knowledgeable posters are taking it seriously. Leonard was an absolute monster at 147lbs, his resume there is simply astounding. Ray would have beat Mosley, De La Hoya, Trinidad, Cotto, throw any Welterweight's name out there, and he beats them in my view...with the soul exception of the original Sugar man. That Marvel guy who was suggesting I've bought into the hype, clearly hasn't sat down and watch Ray systematically outbox and outfight a prime unbeaten 147lbs title holder like Wilfred Benitez. Hype didn't see him cross the finishing line in that fight, his ability did.

To me, this is the same as making a thread asking: "Who would win between Floyd Mayweather and Thomas Hearns at 154?"

Not only is the fight at a weight not suitable for the current fighter, but the fighter he is pitched against is clearly better than him anyway, so h2h it's pointless in two ways, not just the usual one.

Drop Pacquiao into the Montreal ring in place of Duran, and he does well to come out alive, never mind victorious.

[Addie]

Not only is the fight at a weight not suitable for the current fighter, but the fighter he is pitched against is clearly better than him anyway, so h2h it's pointless in two ways, not just the usual one.

I'm not really disagreeing with you, but hasn't Manny looked as good as he ever has as a Welterweight? No longer are these fights unfair on Manny in my estimation, they're stupid to consider because he gets brutalized, but 147lbs might just be his best weight after all. Thoughts?

[Addie]

Drop Pacquiao into the Montreal ring in place of Duran, and he does well to come out alive, never mind victorious.

Almost controversially, I still buy into Leonard's claims that he fought the wrong fight in Montreal. I think he could have made more of an effort to stay on the outside and box Duran, but at the same time, I think he would have lost even more conclusively as a result..and I believe he knew it. Duran was going to land his shots, no matter what, it was the best shape he'd ever been in, and he never wanted to win as badly as he did that night.

You know me Popkins, I always used to shrug off the claims that Duran wasn't in good shape against the likes of Benitez and Hearns. He always gets knocked out by Hearns in my judgment, but I have the Benitez fight in good quality, and that guy is a farcry from the dude who fought Leonard. No urgency at all, didn't even look like he wanted to be there. It's surprising to me because Duran really didn't like Benitez anymore than he did Ray. I don't know if it was bad preparation, whatever, it just wasn't the same guy.

I know I went off topic. All of these guys beat Manny Pacquiao in my estimation, and Benitez does it as emphatically as the others. I never knew how big Benitez was until I saw him in the ring with Duran, he had a really strong upper-body, which leaves me to believe he'd have done fairly well against Hagler too. Not beat him, but I always thought he'd get knocked out..not so sure now having seen him against Duran.

[Popkins]

I'm not really disagreeing with you, but hasn't Manny looked as good as he ever has as a Welterweight? No longer are these fights unfair on Manny in my estimation, they're stupid to consider because he gets brutalized, but 147lbs might just be his best weight after all. Thoughts?

sweet_scientist and I discussed this only the other day.

He feels Pac's best weight was 126.

I firmly believe it is 140. I can see what you are saying, but real welterweights don't only weigh 147lbs on the night, unless that is their walk around weight and they would have put in effort to make 140.

Pac purposefully bulks up to get close to his opponent's weight when his opponent is going to be 140+. That's why he was 142 with a 147 limit vs Oscar, and 144 with a 145 limit vs Cotto.

To be a welter, you need to at least rehydrate to 149-150 IMO. Minimum. Even small welters like Floyd, Hatton and Judah got up to 150 and above on fightnight, and big welters like Margo, Mosley and Clottey can get near 160.

You can't be at your best weight if your opponent is 10-12lbs heavier than you, everything being fair.

Manny looks as good above 140 as he does at 140, but his opponents will be closer to his own fightnight weight when he fights at a 140 limit, so 140 is his best weight IMO.

I think you can count on the fingers of one hand the number of people who have ever fought in the jr-welterweight division who would have beaten this version of Pac without much trouble (Whitaker & Chavez being two of them). I'd think he'd have beaten some great lww's (guys like Meldrick Taylor, Kostya Tszyu, Oscar De La Hoya), and there are others where I find it difficult to call (Pryor, Mayweather).

I made a thread on it a couple of days ago in here.

[Popkins]

Almost controversially, I still buy into Leonard's claims that he fought the wrong fight in Montreal. I think he could have made more of an effort to stay on the outside and box Duran, but at the same time, I think he would have lost even more conclusively as a result..and I believe he knew it. Duran was going to land his shots, no matter what, it was the best shape he'd ever been in, and he never wanted to win as badly as he did that night.

You know me Popkins, I always used to shrug off the claims that Duran wasn't in good shape against the likes of Benitez and Hearns. He always gets knocked out by Hearns in my judgment, but I have the Benitez fight in good quality, and that guy is a farcry from the dude who fought Leonard. No urgency at all, didn't even look like he wanted to be there. It's surprising to me because Duran really didn't like Benitez anymore than he did Ray. I don't know if it was bad preparation, whatever, it just wasn't the same guy.

I know I went off topic. All of these guys beat Manny Pacquiao in my estimation, and Benitez does it as emphatically as the others. I never knew how big Benitez was until I saw him in the ring with Duran, he had a really strong upper-body, which leaves me to believe he'd have done fairly well against Hagler too. Not beat him, but I always thought he'd get knocked out..not so sure now having seen him against Duran.

Very interesting take on the Brawl In Montreal tactics issue, very interesting indeed. That's not even something I've considered, that SRL would have lost more convincingly if he had boxed, I've always been in the camp who scoffs at the very issue, I just don't see the point in it at all. If anyone who lost had fought totally differently against anyone who beat them, of course the fight could have been closer. I just don't see the value in that. Both men went into the ring in great shape, both fought their hearts out trying to win, both chose their own tactics and had ample time to change them, and the result was the right one. End of story for me. If Hearns had been more cautious in the last couple of rounds against Leonard, he would have beaten Leonard. Why is there not an eternal debate about that as well? Obviously this rant is not directed at you, just venting about a perennial irritation on this forum.

[Addie]

sweet_scientist and I discussed this only the other day.

He feels Pac's best weight was 126.

I firmly believe it is 140. I can see what you are saying, but real welterweights don't only weigh 147lbs on the night, unless that is their walk around weight and they would have put in effort to make 140.

Pac purposefully bulks up to get close to his opponent's weight when his opponent is going to be 140+. That's why he was 142 with a 147 limit vs Oscar, and 144 with a 145 limit vs Cotto.

To be a welter, you need to at least rehydrate to 149-150 IMO. Minimum. Even small welters like Floyd, Hatton and Judah got up to 150 and above on fightnight, and big welters like Margo, Mosley and Clottey can get near 160.

You can't be at your best weight if your opponent is 10-12lbs heavier than you, everything being fair.

Manny looks as good above 140 as he does at 140, but his opponents will be closer to his own fightnight weight when he fights at a 140 limit, so 140 is his best weight IMO.

I think you can count on the fingers of one hand the number of people who have ever fought in the jr-welterweight division who would have beaten this version of Pac without much trouble (Whitaker & Chavez being two of them). I'd think he'd have beaten some great lww's (guys like Meldrick Taylor, Kostya Tszyu, Oscar De La Hoya), and there are others where I find it difficult to call (Pryor, Mayweather).

I made a thread on it a couple of days ago in here.

I definitely see the logic in what your saying, and I have no grounds to disagree. That said, I strongly disagree with whoever said 126lbs was Manny Pacquiao's best weight. He got his breakthrough victory against my boy, Marco, and looked great doing it, but Marquez wouldn't have nearly as much success against a 140-147 Manny Pacquiao as he did down at Featherweight.

I think Pryor beats Manny at 140lbs. I made the thread the other day, and I just don't see anyway Manny can beat a guy with never-ending stamina (over the 15 round distance), a terrific knockout ratio, above average handspeed, and he showed a wonderful jab at times. I think a good jab is key to beating Manny, which is why one of the best jabs in history, Pernell Whitaker, has little trouble against the Filipino.

But for all of the talk about people beating Manny, I don't count to many Super Featherweights in history who do.

[Popkins]

I definitely see the logic in what your saying, and I have no grounds to disagree. That said, I strongly disagree with whoever said 126lbs was Manny Pacquiao's best weight. He got his breakthrough victory against my boy, Marco, and looked great doing it, but Marquez wouldn't have nearly as much success against a 140-147 Manny Pacquiao as he did down at Featherweight.

I think Pryor beats Manny at 140lbs. I made the thread the other day, and I just don't see anyway Manny can beat a guy with never-ending stamina (over the 15 round distance), a terrific knockout ratio, above average handspeed, and he showed a wonderful jab at times. I think a good jab is key to beating Manny, which is why one of the best jabs in history, Pernell Whitaker, has little trouble against the Filipino.

But for all of the talk about people beating Manny, I don't count to many Super Featherweights in history who do.

Have you seen Pryor vs Dujuan Johnson? I recently bought a partial career set of the Hawk, and he was not always the irresistable force of nature that he was against Arguello, not by a long shot. I think he was a fantastic fighter, but I do believe Manny beats him more often than not. Pacquiao may not quite match Pryor for stamina, but his own stamina is such that stamina would not even be an issue. Pac always looks as full of energy in the last round as he does in the first, even when he fights 12 rounds at a frantic speed. It's easy to convince yourself that Pryor would win by watching the Arguello fights, and listing his strengths, but what about his weaknesses? He was inconsistent, often complacent, often indisciplined, his defence was never impregnable, he did not have the balance to avoid the odd KD, although he was fast he was not lightning, although he hit hard he was not a one-punch KO man. I think Pryor was one of the best lww's ever, but I think Roach would concoct the plan to beat him, and I think Pac has the necessary strengths to execute it. It would be a war for the ages though.

I don't think there has ever been an elite fighter who fares so badly in hypothetical h2h's as Pacquiao. Because he fights aggressively and has a "take one to give one" mindset, people en masse write off his abilities again and again, no matter who he beats or how he performs. I heard a rumour that Pac was going to have a homecoming fight in Manila next year against Guzman at 140 as preparation for Mayweather so I made a thread on it, and most General Forumers seem to think that Guzman would beat him! It boggles the mind.

[Addie]

Have you seen Pryor vs Dujuan Johnson? I recently bought a partial career set of the Hawk, and he was not always the irresistable force of nature that he was against Arguello, not by a long shot. I think he was a fantastic fighter, but I do believe Manny beats him more often than not. Pacquiao may not quite match Pryor for stamina, but his own stamina is such that stamina would not even be an issue. Pac always looks as full of energy in the last round as he does in the first, even when he fights 12 rounds at a frantic speed. It's easy to convince yourself that Pryor would win by watching the Arguello fights, and listing his strengths, but what about his weaknesses? He was inconsistent, often complacent, often indisciplined, his defence was never impregnable, he did not have the balance to avoid the odd KD, although he was fast he was not lightning, although he hit hard he was not a one-punch KO man. I think Pryor was one of the best lww's ever, but I think Roach would concoct the plan to beat him, and I think Pac has the necessary strengths to execute it. It would be a war for the ages though.Admittedy, I havent seen any Pryor fights outside of Arguello I and II, and his victory over a washed up Cervantes, but I've been watching Wilfred Benitez' fights before he became champion, and the exact same things can be said about him. Benitez, for all of his defensive prowess, was on the verge of a knockout against Bruce Curry and another fighter who's name eludes me at this moment. The argument can be made that Benitez was 16 year old fighting grown men, good fighters, but most great fighters never had smooth rides as they were coming up. I don't think we ever got to see the best of Pryor, but I saw enough against Arguello to suggest he'd be a pain in the ass for anyone.

I rate Freddie Roach highly as a trainer, but I think it's the same as if Pacquiao was fighting Duran or Leonard - no matter what he does, he'll come out on the losing end. Pryor was a terrific boxer, a really great amateur, and he often showed how well he could work behind the jab. Pacquiao got hit by Cotto's jab at will, who's every bit as inconsistent as Pryor was. Likewise, if they go toe to toe, I favor Pryor again...the way he ate Alexis' shots is scarier to e than Manny eating Cotto's. Alexis would have made for a great 140lbs fighter, he just ran into a special fighter in the making.

Who know's what would happen.

I don't think there has ever been an elite fighter who fares so badly in hypothetical h2h's as Pacquiao. Because he fights aggressively and has a "take one to give one" mindset, people en masse write off his abilities again and again, no matter who he beats or how he performs. I heard a rumour that Pac was going to have a homecoming fight in Manila next year against Guzman at 140 as preparation for Mayweather so I made a thread on it, and most General Forumers seem to think that Guzman would beat him! It boggles the mind.
Not to many fighters fare well in hypothetical match-ups against the likes of Ray Leonard and Aaron Pryor, though. As for Trinidad, the guy just hit way way too hard. The only guys who beat him were either much bigger than him, or defensive maestro's. Pacquiao is neither.

[Addie]

Very interesting take on the Brawl In Montreal tactics issue, very interesting indeed. That's not even something I've considered, that SRL would have lost more convincingly if he had boxed, I've always been in the camp who scoffs at the very issue, I just don't see the point in it at all. If anyone who lost had fought totally differently against anyone who beat them, of course the fight could have been closer. I just don't see the value in that. Both men went into the ring in great shape, both fought their hearts out trying to win, both chose their own tactics and had ample time to change them, and the result was the right one. End of story for me. If Hearns had been more cautious in the last couple of rounds against Leonard, he would have beaten Leonard. Why is there not an eternal debate about that as well? Obviously this rant is not directed at you, just venting about a perennial irritation on this forum.

I've never been in the ring so I couldn't comment as well as the fighters among us could, but I always assumed that once you get into a fight like the one in Montreal, you don't revert to Boxing. Likewise, Leonard was as good as he ever would be physically at that time, having beaten great fighters already, but he was still relatively green in comparison to Duran who was in like his 73rd professional bout or something insane. I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that a young fighter who isn't used to getting hit, gets hit by that big left hook early on, and then loses the plot. I'm not discrediting Duran, I think he beats Leonard no matter what he does. I think Ray would have just been fighting to survive had he got on his bike, and therefore lost the rounds even more conclusively.

[MrMarvel]

Very interesting take on the Brawl In Montreal tactics issue, very interesting indeed. That's not even something I've considered, that SRL would have lost more convincingly if he had boxed, I've always been in the camp who scoffs at the very issue, I just don't see the point in it at all. If anyone who lost had fought totally differently against anyone who beat them, of course the fight could have been closer. I just don't see the value in that. Both men went into the ring in great shape, both fought their hearts out trying to win, both chose their own tactics and had ample time to change them, and the result was the right one.

Nice post.

My view is that there is nothing Leonard could do to beat a motivated Duran. Duran was a better welterweight the Leonard. He not only overwhelmed Leonard, but he kicked Palomino's ass, as well. Palomino was a hell of a fighter.

[Addie]

Nice post.

My view is that there is nothing Leonard could do to beat a motivated Duran. Duran was a better welterweight the Leonard. He not only overwhelmed Leonard, but he kicked Palomino's ass, as well. Palomino was a hell of a fighter.

If you're looking for anyone to agree with you that Roberto Duran was a better welterweight than Ray Leonard, you'll be sadly mistaken. Compare the resumes at the weight and it's no contest, and Ray dealt with a fighter like Benitez, far superior to Palamino, in almost equally efficient fashion. What's your excuses for Duran in the second Leonard fight. Keep in mind that I've heard them all.

[Robbi]

It could be argued that Duran has the single better win at welterweight than Leonard, when Duran beat Leonard himself. Leonard beating Hearns was more impressive than Leonard beating Duran in the rematch.

But overall, Duran's greatness was brief at WW. Leonard did have a slight hiccup when he lost to Duran but he has the better wins at the weight. Better resume at WW. Benitez, Duran and Hearns. Not even debatable, IMO.

[Unforgiven]

Yes. Duran's greatness at welterweight was brief.
Briefer than Leonard's even.

[Addie]

It could be argued that Duran has the single better win at welterweight than Leonard, when Duran beat Leonard himself. Leonard beating Hearns was more impressive than Leonard beating Duran in the rematch.

But overall, Duran's greatness was brief at WW. Leonard did have a slight hiccup when he lost to Duran but he has the better wins at the weight. Better resume at WW. Benitez, Duran and Hearns. Not even debatable, IMO.

Hearns (TKO14), Benitez, (TKO15), Duran (TKO8 ), Ayub Kalule (TKO9) makes for very good reading.

[warrior85]

leonard inside 9

[Robbi]

Hearns (TKO14), Benitez, (TKO15), Duran (TKO8 ), Ayub Kalule (TKO9) makes for very good reading.

Kalule was at JMW. I'm comparing Duran and Leonard at WW. So were you earlier in response to MrMarvel.

[Popkins]

Pacquiao got hit by Cotto's jab at will.

Your post was good mate, I'm looking forward to coming back to this thread later, but I only have a minute to write a reply coz I'm at work. The statement I have picked out is a very rash overstatement I think. At will?? I didn't see that at all. Cotto landed a few early, it was not a jab landing "at will" throughout at all IMO.

[Addie]

Kalule was at JMW. I'm comparing Duran and Leonard at WW. So were you earlier in response to MrMarvel.

In any event, Leonard's resume at 147 is stellar. No argument to be posed about Duran being a better Welter, none at all.

[Addie]

Your post was good mate, I'm looking forward to coming back to this thread later, but I only have a minute to write a reply coz I'm at work. The statement I have picked out is a very rash overstatement I think. At will?? I didn't see that at all. Cotto landed a few early, it was not a jab landing "at will" throughout at all IMO.

When Cotto threw the jab, more often than not, it landed and snapped the head back of Manny Pacquiao. We can agree I went overboard with the "at will" statement, but the fact remains, for all of Manny's strengths displayed against Miguel Cotto, he seems to be troubled by jabbers. This is why I think a lot of people are going to be shocked at how easily Mayweather makes it look in beating Manny. Even if Mayweather wins, I'd still rate Manny higher in a P4P sense though.

[Unforgiven]

Palomino is a good win for Duran though.
I mean, wasn't the Benitez-Palomino fight pretty close ? And Duran fought him just after that.
Actually the Palomino win happened before Leonard beat Benitez. I think Duran had earned his shot as much as Leonard had.

The Hearns win does separate Leonard from Duran at WW though.

I think both of their resumes at WW are very good but lacking in quantity. Short reigns, few or no defenses. Quick to move up or retire.

[MrMarvel]

In any event, Leonard's resume at 147 is stellar. No argument to be posed about Duran being a better Welter, none at all.

In the sense that he was outstanding or a star, yes, his career was steller. So were the careers of Benitez, Duran, Palomino, Hearns, and Cuevas.

But there is no question Duran was the better welterweight. All one has to do to see the obviousness of this case is to watch the tape of the Montreal fight. Leonard has neither the strength nor the talent to deal with Duran.

[Addie]

In the sense that he was outstanding or a star, yes, his career was steller. So were the careers of Benitez, Duran, Palomino, Hearns, and Cuevas.

But there is no question Duran was the better welterweight. All one has to do to see the obviousness of this case is to watch the tape of the Montreal fight. Leonard has neither the strength nor the talent to deal with Duran.

Rooster, is that you? :lol:

[Robbi]

In any event, Leonard's resume at 147 is stellar. No argument to be posed about Duran being a better Welter, none at all.

Bang on the money. :good

[Robbi]

In the sense that he was outstanding or a star, yes, his career was steller. So were the careers of Benitez, Duran, Palomino, Hearns, and Cuevas.

But there is no question Duran was the better welterweight. All one has to do to see the obviousness of this case is to watch the tape of the Montreal fight. Leonard has neither the strength nor the talent to deal with Duran.

Leonard's best wins at WW.

Benitez, TKO15.
Duran, TKO8
Hearns TKO14.

Duran's best wins at WW.

Palamino W10
Leonard W15.

Duran has the single best win at the weight when he beat Leonard in Montreal. Taking into account he was a natural LW and up against a prime Leonard. But overall at the weight Leonard has the better balance of wins.

You'll never, I repeat never, find Duran rated above Leonard in an ATG list of WW's.

Leonard was a better WW than Duran overall.

[Robbi]

You could also debate that Leonard was a better WW than Duran was a LW too. Sure, Duran has better longevity at LW than Leonard does at WW. But yet again, Leonard has the better wins, although it's arguable overall. Duran reigned longer at LW (over 7 years) while Leonard's reign was brief. IMO, if you put Benitez, Duran and Hearns up against Duran's three best wins at LW it would be tough to make a case for Duran. It must be said that Buchanan and De Jesus were good quality too. Depends what you like.

[teeto]

Duran has the single best win at the weight when he beat Leonard in Montreal. Taking into account he was a natural LW and up against a prime Leonard. But overall at the weight Leonard has the better balance of wins.

.

:deal

They're a win a piece against each other. That means Leonard earned his win just like Duran earned his win.

I'm leaving this thread now, can't be arsed with the can of worms i've just opened, it's needless. But you're right anyway.

I think MrMarvel's point is on a head to head assumption, unless i'm wrong. That is up for debate, like i said they're a win a piece on mutual merit. But your last sentence is a lock for truth.:good

[Addie]

:deal

They're a win a piece against each other. That means Leonard earned his win just like Duran earned his win.

I'm leaving this thread now, can't be arsed with the can of worms i've just opened, it's needless. But you're right anyway.

I think MrMarvel's point is on a head to head assumption, unless i'm wrong. That is up for debate, like i said they're a win a piece on mutual merit. But your last sentence is a lock for truth.:good

Don't put to much stock in anything MrMarvel has to say regarding Leonard, he seems to be a RedRooster recruit. I mean, let's have complete disregard for Leonard's stoppages over prime Hearns and prime Benitez, that's his mindset...and it can't be justified, not by logic anyway.

[leverage]

If you're talking about the leonard that fought camacho then pacman wins. Other than that, forget about it.

[Sweet Pea]

The Duran that fought Palomino and Leonard was just as good as pretty much any WW you care to mention. Or at least up there. He was at least as good in those fights as any I ever saw at Lightweight.

[Bill Butcher]

Ray handled southpaws in the amateurs and Ayub Kalule ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) at 154 lbs, but I think the Pacman may be just as fast of hand & foot as Ray, plus Pac is just as tough.

The trainers would be just about equal too.

It may be that only the really tall welters such as Hearns or Tito, or the big hitters like Cuevas, are the ones that can beat Pacman at welter, (excluding Sugar Ray Robinson who is considered to be the very best).

Im too tired to work out if you are joking here but just in case you are not... Leonard would massacre Pacquiao & yes, Id bet my life on it without hesitation.

Watch what happens in the future Mayweather-Pacquiao bout... then try come back to me with this bullshit, you wont be able to, even as a joke - if it was a joke.

[duranimal]

Don't put to much stock in anything MrMarvel has to say regarding Leonard, he seems to be a RedRooster recruit. I mean, let's have complete disregard for Leonard's stoppages over prime Hearns and prime Benitez, that's his mindset...and it can't be justified, not by logic anyway.

Addie; All common sense & logic would point to Leonard hammering pacman, but after watching the fight live at ringside & 3 more times on tape i'am telling you know that Leonard would get hit plenty & often in those first 5 rounds & it's not out of this world to see Leonard hitting the deck. Duran had Leonard breakdancing in the 2nd in Montreal, Leonards defence was average at best, he was easy to hit & relied on those lightspeed blistering 5/6 combo's to keep any foe at bay.

I've bet & lost a stack betting against pacman time & time again, he has absolutly no right to even be fighting up at these weights, he really is a modern day marvel. Of coarse with Leonards size/speed you'd think he'd overwhelm a little guy like pac & he proberbly would/should if he fought a Benitez style fight but the Leonard of Montreal would have his hands full for the first 5 & it just all depends how Leonard would approach this fight tacticly, would his ego get the better of him in respect to viewing pac as an upstart challenger? If he did then he'd be in for quite a shock (Kevin Howard comes to mind) do you get my drift!

We are not talking about a fight of equals here! As in Hearns/Leonard 1, we are talking about someone that came up & challenged Leonard from the lighter ranks & who despite all common fistic logic has now dispached, Diaz/DLH/Hatton & now Cotto, Leonards defence here is the key + his ego in maybe wanting to dish out a beating to the upstart, if so, then thats pac's best chance, if not, (Benitez stratagy)then it's 9th round TKO for Leonard, but a lot of you here are missing the key eliment to this match-up & it's Leonards EGO.

With regard to Leonards TKO over benitez, it was gifted & Hearns would have won over 12, ahead by a street. I'am minded to think that Pacman would have given Duran a tough fight for about 7 before his was crushed as Durans defence was far superior to Leonards, but don't go overboard here on righting off this little guy, he's shocked the world to date, i'am a huge Cotto fan but i've never seen that done to someone of Cotto's calibre.

But back to Leonard, Pac's/Roach's tactics would be to counter Leonard at mid range, Duran dominated Leonard in Montreal by drawing Leonards lead then smashing in overhand rights all night & with pac's side 2 side in/out & straight down the pipe deliveries from the counter to attack, then he'd land at will, as i've said above, if Leonard adopts the Benitez fight stratagy of ultra caution punch picking (Which Mayweather will employ) then it'll be a one sided yawn & a mid/late TKO but if the ego maniac in Leonard surfaces then i'am telling yer now you'd see Leonard getting whacked & decked, so focus on what Leonard would show up for the pac fight if it was 2010 & Leonard was in Mayweathers shoes, i'am going for the EGO-MANIAC to show up who just hated anyone getting more ink than himself, think about it:smoke

[Popkins]

H2H only, not taking into account resume at the weight, Duran is as good as any ww I've ever seen, including Leonard. I can say that as I haven't seen footage of Robinson fighting at welter. I am one of what I suspect would be a tiny and oppressed minority who was not impressed by anything about SRL's performance against Hearns except his power/finishing combination ability. I don't rate it as a great overall performance by any manner of means. Was the Duran of the 1st Leonard fight and the Palomino fight as good as the Leonard of the Benitez fight and the second Duran fight? My answer would be: Easily he was.

[Popkins]

When Cotto threw the jab, more often than not, it landed and snapped the head back of Manny Pacquiao. We can agree I went overboard with the "at will" statement, but the fact remains, for all of Manny's strengths displayed against Miguel Cotto, he seems to be troubled by jabbers. This is why I think a lot of people are going to be shocked at how easily Mayweather makes it look in beating Manny. Even if Mayweather wins, I'd still rate Manny higher in a P4P sense though.

I don't think Manny is especially troubled by jabbers. I don't recall him ever looking as affected by a jab as Mayweather was in the first half of the De La Hoya fight, as it basically hemmed Floyd in and made him a passive force for the best part of 6 rounds. (One of the many reasons why I think Floyd is widely overrated is his inability to stick a great jab in his pocket and remove it from the fight, in a way that other greats could)

Why is Manny troubled more by jabbers than 90% of other fighters? I'd say 90% of fighters are unable to remove their opponents' jab from the reckoning, it's one of the most difficult things to do in boxing. But it doesn't stop those 90% winning fights, unless they are faced with a Larry Holmes ATG jab which can more or less win the fight single-handedly (literally). And Floyd does not have anything even resembling a Holmes-standard jab. He has a quick jab, but often jabs to the body rather than the head (pointless against Pacquiao), and his jab is not particularly damaging as a weapon, nor powerful enough to act as a real effective deterrent to an attacking opponent.

I can count on the fingers of one hand the active fighters that I have seen completely nullify a fighter with a great jab (Hopkins did so against Winky and Pavlik, for example), but the fact that Manny doesn't have the style to do so doesn't mean he in particular has a problem with jabbers, no more so than the next guy. JL Castillo wasn't that type of fighter either, and he beat Floyd by intelligent pressure.

[Popkins]

I don't think Manny is especially troubled by jabbers. I don't recall him ever looking as affected by a jab as Mayweather was in the first half of the De La Hoya fight, as it basically hemmed Floyd in and made him a passive force for the best part of 6 rounds. (One of the many reasons why I think Floyd is widely overrated is his inability to stick a great jab in his pocket and remove it from the fight, in a way that other greats could)

Why is Manny troubled more by jabbers than 90% of other fighters? I'd say 90% of fighters are unable to remove their opponents' jab from the reckoning, it's one of the most difficult things to do in boxing. But it doesn't stop those 90% winning fights, unless they are faced with a Larry Holmes ATG jab which can more or less win the fight single-handedly (literally). And Floyd does not have anything even resembling a Holmes-standard jab. He has a quick jab, but often jabs to the body rather than the head (pointless against Pacquiao), and his jab is not particularly damaging as a weapon, nor powerful enough to act as a real effective deterrent to an attacking opponent.

I can count on the fingers of one hand the active fighters that I have seen completely nullify a fighter with a great jab (Hopkins did so against Winky and Pavlik, for example), but the fact that Manny doesn't have the style to do so doesn't mean he in particular has a problem with jabbers, no more so than the next guy. JL Castillo wasn't that type of fighter either, and he beat Floyd by intelligent pressure.

Response to this Addie mate?

[Addie]

I don't think Manny is especially troubled by jabbers. I don't recall him ever looking as affected by a jab as Mayweather was in the first half of the De La Hoya fight, as it basically hemmed Floyd in and made him a passive force for the best part of 6 rounds. (One of the many reasons why I think Floyd is widely overrated is his inability to stick a great jab in his pocket and remove it from the fight, in a way that other greats could)

Why is Manny troubled more by jabbers than 90% of other fighters? I'd say 90% of fighters are unable to remove their opponents' jab from the reckoning, it's one of the most difficult things to do in boxing. But it doesn't stop those 90% winning fights, unless they are faced with a Larry Holmes ATG jab which can more or less win the fight single-handedly (literally). And Floyd does not have anything even resembling a Holmes-standard jab. He has a quick jab, but often jabs to the body rather than the head (pointless against Pacquiao), and his jab is not particularly damaging as a weapon, nor powerful enough to act as a real effective deterrent to an attacking opponent.

I can count on the fingers of one hand the active fighters that I have seen completely nullify a fighter with a great jab (Hopkins did so against Winky and Pavlik, for example), but the fact that Manny doesn't have the style to do so doesn't mean he in particular has a problem with jabbers, no more so than the next guy. JL Castillo wasn't that type of fighter either, and he beat Floyd by intelligent pressure.

Manny Pacquiao doesn't seem to have the capacity to move his head out of the way of a jab, as evidenced by the Miguel Cotto fight. If Floyd throws his, which he almost certainly will do, and Manny Pacquoao gets hit by it even more times than Cotto was able to hit his, what does Pacquiao do to counteract that? I know what he did against Cotto, he threw leather, a lot of it, and a left hand landed in round 4 and Cotto was all but done. That shot won't land on Floyd because he won't be there to be hit. Manny tries to close the distance? He gets a jab in his face. He flurries, and as evidenced in the past, a lot of the shots will hit Floyd on the shoulders and arms.

You don't seem to admit there's even the slightest possibility that Floyd could stop Manny Pacquiao. It's the shots you don't see that hurt you the most, like Cotto didn't see Manny's left uppercut, and Floyd is going to be throwing counters off the ropes, and as Manny comes in. Look at his landing percentage throughout his career. Manny is going to get hit coming in, and unless Manny makes those flurries count, he's going to lose the rounds. That's the way I see the fight going, and I don't rule out the possibility of Floyd landing a shot late that Manny doesn't see which drops the Filipino.

[Titan1]

Ray would stop Manny late.

[The Morlocks]

Ray handled southpaws in the amateurs and Ayub Kalule ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) at 154 lbs, but I think the Pacman may be just as fast of hand & foot as Ray, plus Pac is just as tough.

The trainers would be just about equal too.

It may be that only the really tall welters such as Hearns or Tito, or the big hitters like Cuevas, are the ones that can beat Pacman at welter, (excluding Sugar Ray Robinson who is considered to be the very best).
Cuevas at his best would be big trouble for Manny. Pipino was the hardest puncher I saw and punches bounced off of him until he was finally wore down after 4 yrs and 11 title defenses and ran into hearns. You could tell by the 3rd Espada fight and the Volbrecht fight that Pipino was not the fighter of his prime in 78.:rasta

[RafaelGonzal]

its funny on this forum there are arguments for Pac beating Ray leanord and Duran but almost everyone almost unanimously in a thread here said Whitaker beats Pac at 135 140 147, I find this interesting and it says a lot about posters on this forum because Whitaker in no way is a greater fighter than Ray or Duran.

[beecho1988]

Leonard KO

[MrMarvel]

its funny on this forum there are arguments for Pac beating Ray leanord and Duran but almost everyone almost unanimously in a thread here said Whitaker beats Pac at 135 140 147, I find this interesting and it says a lot about posters on this forum because Whitaker in no way is a greater fighter than Ray or Duran.

I disagree that in no way is Whitaker greater than Ray. I think he is greater.

[MrMarvel]

About Manny taking jabs. Robinson used to take japs. So did Duran. Lots of great fighters took jabs. Doing that allows you stay in range.

[Olu G. Rotimi]

Pacman would be stopped by both Ray Leonard and Duran. He has never fought anyone remotely like either.

[JohnThomas1]

I disagree that in no way is Whitaker greater than Ray. I think he is greater.

How would you see SRL vs a peak Mark Breland going? Breland has that height and right hand ya know.

[Battlejrb2]

SRL was trained by the best in an era where the best fought the best. Everyone trainied hard so you had to bring your A game every night. I think Manny is one of the best to lace em up, but Leonard can match his hand speed, overpower and out skill Manny to the point the fight is stopped. The Duran situation was SRL trying to out macho his challenger, but the best Leonard made Duran quit. Leonard by KO after 7 rounds of action.

[Bill Butcher]

Ray handled southpaws in the amateurs and Ayub Kalule ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) at 154 lbs, but I think the Pacman may be just as fast of hand & foot as Ray, plus Pac is just as tough.

The trainers would be just about equal too.

It may be that only the really tall welters such as Hearns or Tito, or the big hitters like Cuevas, are the ones that can beat Pacman at welter, (excluding Sugar Ray Robinson who is considered to be the very best).

If you are for real, you need a slap in the face.....

If you are joking, waste of thread.....

Either way, sort yer shit out !

[Bill Butcher]

I think Pacman has the tools to beat SRL

Im taking this as my new signature, absolute comedy gold, cheers for this :good

Ps. Addie, Ive only read about 80 posts thus far but I agree with every single post of yours regarding this mismatch.... there are no words to describe the thickness of some of these posters, amazing :nut

[anarci]

Pac would hold his own and do well early,then Leonard would take it to another level(get in his zone) around the 8th and start to to beat Manny to the punch in classic 9th and 10th rounds,he would then close the show in the 11th. Leonard tko 11 over Pac

[anarci]

And David "Boy" Green isn't a Pacman.

Ray really only began to fill out in strength when he began to move up in weight above 147 lbs. :nonoThats Crazy maybe his arms and Chest got bigger but we aint talking body building here guy. Leonard didnt take his power up with him he could PUNCH at welter,but at Middle and Super middle he was a only a decent puncher. He was also physically strong at welter.

[The Priest]

leonard takes it on points with a few ter ups along the way :tired

[Bill Butcher]

leonard takes it on points with a few ter ups along the way :tired

No way Pac lasts the distance with Leonard.....

SRL TKO14 Hearns, TKO15 Benitez & TKO8 Duran tells you that.

[Addie]

No way Pac lasts the distance with Leonard.....

SRL TKO14 Hearns, TKO15 Benitez & TKO8 Duran tells you that.

:lol: I love your signature mate. It's so flawed of an opinion, everyone has to hear it.

[Bill Butcher]

:lol: I love your signature mate. It's so flawed of an opinion, everyone has to hear it.

He certainly made me spill my tea all over my suit with that classic mesmerising :-(

[The Morlocks]

Roberto Duran did.
Amen to that brother. And Ray (who was great, but Duran was greater) waited for Duran to get out of shape, w/ no time to fet in shape to fight him again. Look at Duran's body in 1 and then 2. it doesn't even compare. The fact is that the hunger was finally satisfied after the first fight and we never saw the animal-like Duran again. Oh yeah, Sugar Ray over Pac in 6.:hat

[The Morlocks]

If you're looking for anyone to agree with you that Roberto Duran was a better welterweight than Ray Leonard, you'll be sadly mistaken. Compare the resumes at the weight and it's no contest, and Ray dealt with a fighter like Benitez, far superior to Palamino, in almost equally efficient fashion. What's your excuses for Duran in the second Leonard fight. Keep in mind that I've heard them all.
I'd take a prime Duran anyday, as i did when they were in their prime on June 20, 1980. The first matchup into the unknown is always the most important to me. :hat

[The Morlocks]

Leonard's best wins at WW.

Benitez, TKO15.
Duran, TKO8
Hearns TKO14.

Duran's best wins at WW.

Palamino W10
Leonard W15.

Duran has the single best win at the weight when he beat Leonard in Montreal. Taking into account he was a natural LW and up against a prime Leonard. But overall at the weight Leonard has the better balance of wins.

You'll never, I repeat never, find Duran rated above Leonard in an ATG list of WW's.

Leonard was a better WW than Duran overall.
But you never, EVER see ray above Duran on the pfp lists.:hat

[The Morlocks]

You could also debate that Leonard was a better WW than Duran was a LW too. Sure, Duran has better longevity at LW than Leonard does at WW. But yet again, Leonard has the better wins, although it's arguable overall. Duran reigned longer at LW (over 7 years) while Leonard's reign was brief. IMO, if you put Benitez, Duran and Hearns up against Duran's three best wins at LW it would be tough to make a case for Duran. It must be said that Buchanan and De Jesus were good quality too. Depends what you like.
If you put the lw Duran, w/ everything he had Speed, toughness, power against any of the guys, he ko's them all.:hat

[Popkins]

This thread is one of those ESB bermuda triangles - can anyone work out why this subject has mysteriously stretched to 14 pages?! One single post comprising of a mere four words should have been enough:

Leonard. Easily. End thread.

[Bill Butcher]

But you never, EVER see ray above Duran on the pfp lists.:hat

I bought a boxing video a few yrs back called `Boxing Top 10`
It was sponsered by `The Sun` (a popular newspaper in the UK)

It gave you their top 10, fights, KO`s, comebacks etc. but it finished with their top 10 fighters list, prepare to be mesmerised......

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Joe Louis
5. Sugar Ray Leonard
6. Roberto Duran
7. Jack Johnson
8. Larry Holmes
9. Julio cesar Chavez
10. Marvelous Marvin Hagler

Ye see ?... not ALL lists have Duran over Leonard ;)

Ps. for the record, I have Duran just ONE place above Ray on my list, Ray would likely be higher if he fought during his retirements, huge black mark for a fighter of that calibre in my eyes.

:good

[Addie]

I bought a boxing video a few yrs back called `Boxing Top 10`
It was sponsered by `The Sun` (a popular newspaper in the UK)

It gave you their top 10, fights, KO`s, comebacks etc. but it finished with their top 10 fighters list, prepare to be mesmerised......

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Joe Louis
5. Sugar Ray Leonard
6. Roberto Duran
7. Jack Johnson
8. Larry Holmes
9. Julio cesar Chavez
10. Marvelous Marvin Hagler

Ye see ?... not ALL lists have Duran over Leonard ;)

Ps. for the record, I have Duran just ONE place above Ray on my list, Ray would likely be higher if he fought during his retirements, huge black mark for a fighter of that calibre in my eyes.

:good

Colin Hart wrote for The Sun if I'm not mistaken, and he was a Ray Leonard nut-hugger.

[haglerforever]

leonard, he was tru ww,it would be great fight,paquioa never faught a ww yet like leonard, maybe not in march either.

[Sardu]

Pacman has been sensational against the trio of a used up ODH, Hatton, a starting to become shop-worn Cotto. Leonard at WW outdueled a prime Benitez, stood his ground against Duranimal, beat him, then the epic victory over Hearns. Even though I never cared for the showboating, etc. Leonard in his prime would beat Pacman but it would be a fight for the ages and he would be forced to dig down deep which Leonard did on a regular basis anyway.I'm saying the fight is a 15-rounder because that was what the prime SRL fought in.

SRL TKO 13 Manny Pac

[haglerforever]

leonard beats paquioa at 147 , he was a ww, paquioa`s great little guy,but he hasn`t beaten enough weterweights to prove he`d beat a (good-great) bigger guy , pp

[Bill Butcher]

Pacman has been sensational against the trio of a used up ODH, Hatton, a starting to become shop-worn Cotto. Leonard at WW outdueled a prime Benitez, stood his ground against Duranimal, beat him, then the epic victory over Hearns. Even though I never cared for the showboating, etc. Leonard in his prime would beat Pacman but it would be a fight for the ages and he would be forced to dig down deep which Leonard did on a regular basis anyway.I'm saying the fight is a 15-rounder because that was what the prime SRL fought in.

SRL TKO 13 Manny Pac

The shit in red is more likely.

[Shake]

I don't see Pac getting out of the first six rounds. Leonard finishes too well, and sharpshoots too accurately.

[Axl_Nose]

Ray handled southpaws in the amateurs and Ayub Kalule ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) at 154 lbs, but I think the Pacman may be just as fast of hand & foot as Ray, plus Pac is just as tough.

The trainers would be just about equal too.

It may be that only the really tall welters such as Hearns or Tito, or the big hitters like Cuevas, are the ones that can beat Pacman at welter, (excluding Sugar Ray Robinson who is considered to be the very best).

Lol i thought this was a joke thread, but then i realised that many people on here are somehow convinced that Leonard was a fraud, lol that always makes me laugh ....

Leonard destroys Pacquaio brutally .... Thats a very easy prediction, a harder prediction would be Leonard v Curry, I'd still edge Leonard but people forget how brilliant Curry was ..... Curry would annihilate Manny Pac too .... Pac beats Hatton, a washed up Oscar and a weathered Cotto and people start believing he can beat Ray Leonard, oh man thats unbelievable :admin

[Axl_Nose]

A better thread and far more interesting thread would be to see how Pac would get on against Pernell Whitaker, Aaron Pryor, Chavez or Meldrick Taylor ..... Putting him in with Leonard is 'Dreamland', i'd take all these guys to beat Pac because i understand modern day matchmaking and modern day hype .... Pac is a brilliant fighter but you'll see how good he is against true brilliance when he faces Floyd, he aint even gonna win a single round against Floyd ....

Pac v Leonard , thats truly laughable ...........

[Boxed Ears]

Ray handled southpaws in the amateurs and Ayub Kalule ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) at 154 lbs, but I think the Pacman may be just as fast of hand & foot as Ray, plus Pac is just as tough.

The trainers would be just about equal too.

It may be that only the really tall welters such as Hearns or Tito, or the big hitters like Cuevas, are the ones that can beat Pacman at welter, (excluding Sugar Ray Robinson who is considered to be the very best).

Ray wasn't as tall as Hearns but he was actually a fairly tall WW and also COME ON. Pac is at his utmost limit at WW and Leonard was perhaps in his prime weight there. He'd go up to the super middle/light heavy area by the latter part of his career against Lalonde. That's like asking who would win between a top tier ATG Light HW and a stretched to the limit Leonard. It's craziness. Pac is an awesome fighter and he beat a great WW in Cotto, but not a guy who was on the short list of all-time great welters by any means. Leonard IS on that short list. Just an unfair fight in every way.

[Bill Butcher]

Lol i thought this was a joke thread, but then i realised that many people on here are somehow convinced that Leonard was a fraud, lol that always makes me laugh ....

Leonard destroys Pacquaio brutally .... Thats a very easy prediction, a harder prediction would be Leonard v Curry, I'd still edge Leonard but people forget how brilliant Curry was ..... Curry would annihilate Manny Pac too .... Pac beats Hatton, a washed up Oscar and a weathered Cotto and people start believing he can beat Ray Leonard, oh man thats unbelievable :admin

Oh no.... ITS believable :lol:

ESB has some of the most delusional tards in earths history, just check out my signature, I believe I actually got it from this very thread, mesmerising... & yes, Floyd will beat Pacquiao, not sure he will win every rd tho, I think more of Pac than that but he WILL beat Pac, you can pretty much put a shit load of cash on that one.

:good

[natonic]

Silly that this thread is still alive. People would rather trash Leonard than maintain their credibility on this board.

[KOTF]

I lean towards Ray. By a lot, probably by TKO.

[MrMarvel]

Ray Leonard had faster hands than Manny...more power than Manny...and he was bigger than Manny...what do you think happens?

Wasn't this true of Duran, as well?

[he grant]

Leonard by mid round KO ...

[Rudyard]

I think Pacman has the tools to beat SRL.

IT would be a close fight either way imo.

I dont see SRL just walking though Pacman.
:lol::rofl:lol::rofl:lol:

Ohh shit son! Give me some of that shit you smoking!

[Jorodz]

:lol::rofl:lol::rofl:lol:

Ohh shit son! Give me some of that shit you smoking!

well, pac did beat clottey, who is basically this generations sugar ray leonard. out of respect, i'll say leonard wins more rounds than clottey...i'll give him 1.:rasta

[Boxed Ears]

well, pac did beat clottey, who is basically this generations sugar ray leonard. out of respect, i'll say leonard wins more rounds than clottey...i'll give him 1.:rasta

:lol: But, Clottey had diarrhea...this is not fair.

[Jorodz]

:lol: But, Clottey had diarrhea...this is not fair.

much like duran. they should have a welterweight showdown, lasts 2 rounds before the ring is painted brown

[Bill Butcher]

Leonard is better than Pac in just about every department, he has better speed, power, footwork, chin, defence, he`s smarter, more versatile & a better finisher.

I think Leonard toys with him before taking him out in 10 rds or less - & thats being generous to Manny, he only gets as far as rd 10 because Ray toys with him in too many rds.
A Leonard in vicious, hunt & destroy mode takes Pac out in 4.

[Jorodz]

Leonard is better than Pac in just about every department, he has better speed, power, footwork, chin, defence, he`s smarter, more versatile & a better finisher.

I think Leonard toys with him before taking him out in 10 rds or less - & thats being generous to Manny, he only gets as far as rd 10 because Ray toys with him in too many rds.
A Leonard in vicious, hunt & destroy mode takes Pac out in 4.

i'm trying to think of a comparable opponent to manny style wise and i'm having a lot of trouble...not to say leonard would struggle as a result but just odd

[PH|LLA]

Leonard wins a great fight. People talking about Leonard knocking out Pac in 6 are crazy.

It would be a high quality fight, and I'd favour Leonard on cuts late in the fight.

[Bill Butcher]

Leonard wins a great fight. People talking about Leonard knocking out Pac in 6 are crazy.

It would be a high quality fight, and I'd favour Leonard on cuts late in the fight.

Id say Pac would last longer than 6 but no more than 10 & I dont see him winning more than 2 rds, Leonard does everything better than Manny, he is a better p4p fighter + he`ll be bigger as well, he has KO`d men that would KO Manny.

It might be a good fight to watch but only in the sense that both guys are brilliant offensive forces in top form but as far as it being competitive ?... No !

[ryan_c]

Hmm many people thought Pacquiao would lose on certain fighters, but he proved them wrong, looking at it, many people are picking Ray to beat Pacquiao. It's unfortunate that Pacquiao will not have the chance to prove himself against Ray.

I am not saying Pacquaio would beat Ray (but it's a possibility,), I am just giving some perspective.

[Bill Butcher]

Hmm many people thought Pacquiao would lose on certain fighters, but he proved them wrong, looking at it, many people are picking Ray to beat Pacquiao. It's unfortunate that Pacquiao will not have the chance to prove himself against Ray.

I am not saying Pacquaio would beat Ray (but it's a possibility,), I am just giving some perspective.

Nah, Id bet very big on Mayweather to decisively beat Pac & Leonard is a better fighter + bigger than Mayweather.

I rate Pac but vs SRL he`d be in WAY over his head IMHO.