Lets compare Pretty Boy to Pacman in an ATG sense

[trampie]

Early careers
Pacman started his pro career at 16 years of age at 106 lbs, he won his first World title at Flyweight 112lbs a few days short of 20 years of age, Manny had won 22 of his first 23 fights on his way to getting his first World title shot, all Mannys fights leading up to his World title shot had been at home in the Philippines except the last one which was in Japan, when he won the title it was an excellent win against Sasakul in Thailand .
Floyd was also at 16 years of age when he was starting his senior amateur career, Floyd was the National Golden Gloves Champion at 106 pounds when he was 16 years old, Floyd was National Golden Gloves Champion at 112 pounds as a 17 year old, Floyd was United States
Amateur Featherweight champion at 18, Floyd was National Golden Gloves Champion at 125 pounds at 19 years old and represented the United States at the Olympics where Mayweather lost by a controversial decision in the semi-finals, the U.S. team officially protested. Many who saw the bout, including the referee (who mistakenly raised Mayweather's hand when the decision was read), believed that Mayweather had won, he had to settle for bronze, Mayweather ended up winning 84 out of 90 amateur bouts.

It is difficult to compare their early careers as one was a pro and one was an amateur, it is unfair to say that Pacman was better than Pretty Boy as a teenager just because he was a pro, I would imagine that boxing authorites in most parts of the World would not give a pro licence to a 16 year old boy, infact it could be said that Mayweathers amateur career was as successful as Mannys early pro career , another interesting thing is that Mayweather was exactly the same weight as Manny at 16 years old, 106 lbs, they are in boxing terms the same size, they have progressed through the weights at a similar rate from 16 years old to 30 year olds.

Championship careers
Pacman won the WBC flyweight title defended it once then lost it.
He then won the IBF Super Bantemweight title and defended it three times {not including a draw for a clash of heads}
Pacman then wins the WBC Super Featherweight title, does not defend it.
He then wins the WBC Light Featherweight title, does not defend it.
Finally Pacman wins the WBO Welterweight title, at a catchweight.

I make that 9 title wins and defences at 5 different weights {including the last catchweight Welterweight title}.
50 wins - 3 losses - 2 draws

Pretty Boys championship career started with him winning the WBC Super Featherweight title at 21 years of age and he defended it 8 times,
Floyd then won the WBC Lightweight title and defended it 3 times, Floyd then wins the WBC Super Light Welterweight title, and does not defend it.
Then Floyd wins the IBF Welterweight title and then he wins the WBC version of the Welterweight title and goes on to defend the WBC Welterweight title once, Floyd also won the WBC Light Middleweight title.
PS Floyd has never fought outside his home country as a pro.

I make that 18 title wins and defences at 5 different weights for Floyd.
40 wins - 0 losses - 0 draws

Weighing it all up.
Both boxers started at the same weight at the same age and are currently performing at the same weight now.
Unfair to compare early careers, but it is fair to say both men were equally successful.
Their championship careers Mayweather to my eye has been a lot more successful with 18 championships to Pacquiao's 9 {I am not including stepping stone titles like international belts or IBO or even Ring magazine belts},
Pacquiao has also suffered 3 losses, which in my book counts as a negative when comparing the two, also I think that Floyd is a better technician.
So all in all, I still have Pretty Boy ahead of Pacman in the ATG stakes, if Pretty Boy beats Pacman head-to-head, I will rank Pretty Boy well ahead of Pacman, if Pacman beats Pretty Boy head-to-head, I will just about rank Manny higher. {I think Pretty Boy beats Manny by UD if they meet}.

[lefthook31]

Floyd is the better fighter currently. Hes never been in situations where he was knocked down, out or drew. Hes also moved up in weight when his body was not fully filled out and I think lately hes been getting some unfair criticism. People just dismissed the Marquez fight as Floyd being much bigger after his complete dominance, but Pac proved he was a big man too by beating down Cotto.
That being said, like Floyd, Manny has improved quite a bit as a pro, maybe moreso than Floyd has, so hes earned the right to fight for the title of P4P best in boxing right now. Floyd just doesnt understand that boxing fans are only about "what have you done lately", and as long as he wants to be called P4P best and command huge paydays, he has to back it up in the ring by fighting the best or he should get out. Its really as simple as that.

[trampie]

Floyd is the better fighter currently. Hes never been in situations where he was knocked down, out or drew. Hes also moved up in weight when his body was not fully filled out and I think lately hes been getting some unfair criticism. People just dismissed the Marquez fight as Floyd being much bigger after his complete dominance, but Pac proved he was a big man too by beating down Cotto.
That being said, like Floyd, Manny has improved quite a bit as a pro, maybe moreso than Floyd has, so hes earned the right to fight for the title of P4P best in boxing right now. Floyd just doesnt understand that boxing fans are only about "what have you done lately", and as long as he wants to be called P4P best and command huge paydays, he has to back it up in the ring by fighting the best or he should get out. Its really as simple as that.

Agree :good

[Bing]

While I agree that there the same size now. Manny rates above Floyd in my atg rankings as I believe he's beat better fighters than Floyd. If they fight and Floyd wins i'll rate him above pacquiao.

[Genesis]

Remember Floyd beat Oscar (a better version at 154) and Hatton (undefeated) before Pac.

[Popkins]

Early careers
Pacman started his pro career at 16 years of age at 106 lbs, he won his first World title at Flyweight 112lbs a few days short of 20 years of age, Manny had won 22 of his first 23 fights on his way to getting his first World title shot, all Mannys fights leading up to his World title shot had been at home in the Philippines except the last one which was in Japan, when he won the title it was an excellent win against Sasakul in Thailand .
Floyd was also at 16 years of age when he was starting his senior amateur career, Floyd was the National Golden Gloves Champion at 106 pounds when he was 16 years old, Floyd was National Golden Gloves Champion at 112 pounds as a 17 year old, Floyd was United States
Amateur Featherweight champion at 18, Floyd was National Golden Gloves Champion at 125 pounds at 19 years old and represented the United States at the Olympics where Mayweather lost by a controversial decision in the semi-finals, the U.S. team officially protested. Many who saw the bout, including the referee (who mistakenly raised Mayweather's hand when the decision was read), believed that Mayweather had won, he had to settle for bronze, Mayweather ended up winning 84 out of 90 amateur bouts.

It is difficult to compare their early careers as one was a pro and one was an amateur, it is unfair to say that Pacman was better than Pretty Boy as a teenager just because he was a pro, I would imagine that boxing authorites in most parts of the World would not give a pro licence to a 16 year old boy, infact it could be said that Mayweathers amateur career was as successful as Mannys early pro career , another interesting thing is that Mayweather was exactly the same weight as Manny at 16 years old, 106 lbs, they are in boxing terms the same size, they have progressed through the weights at a similar rate from 16 years old to 30 year olds.

Championship careers
Pacman won the WBC flyweight title defended it once then lost it.
He then won the IBF Super Bantemweight title and defended it three times {not including a draw for a clash of heads}
Pacman then wins the WBC Super Featherweight title, does not defend it.
He then wins the WBC Light Featherweight title, does not defend it.
Finally Pacman wins the WBO Welterweight title, at a catchweight.

I make that 9 title wins and defences at 5 different weights {including the last catchweight Welterweight title}.
50 wins - 3 losses - 2 draws

Pretty Boys championship career started with him winning the WBC Super Featherweight title at 21 years of age and he defended it 8 times,
Floyd then won the WBC Lightweight title and defended it 3 times, Floyd then wins the WBC Super Light Welterweight title, and does not defend it.
Then Floyd wins the IBF Welterweight title and then he wins the WBC version of the Welterweight title and goes on to defend the WBC Welterweight title once, Floyd also won the WBC Light Middleweight title.
PS Floyd has never fought outside his home country as a pro.

I make that 18 title wins and defences at 5 different weights for Floyd.
40 wins - 0 losses - 0 draws

Weighing it all up.
Both boxers started at the same weight at the same age and are currently performing at the same weight now.
Unfair to compare early careers, but it is fair to say both men were equally successful.
Their championship careers Mayweather to my eye has been a lot more successful with 18 championships to Pacquiao's 9 {I am not including stepping stone titles like international belts or IBO or even Ring magazine belts},
Pacquiao has also suffered 3 losses, which in my book counts as a negative when comparing the two, also I think that Floyd is a better technician.
So all in all, I still have Pretty Boy ahead of Pacman in the ATG stakes, if Pretty Boy beats Pacman head-to-head, I will rank Pretty Boy well ahead of Pacman, if Pacman beats Pretty Boy head-to-head, I will just about rank Manny higher. {I think Pretty Boy beats Manny by UD if they meet}.

Good background knowledge in this post, but I would disagree a little with the focus of your argument.

To me, this post is a bit like saying:


"Oscar De La Hoya is a greater fighter than Marvin Hagler because Oscar won titles in more weight divisions. Oscar won titles in 6 divisions, Marvin won titles in 1 division. Six beats one"

To reduce the argument to focusing on one numerical statistic doesn't really tell the full story. Oscar did win titles in more weight divisions, but that is only one facet of a boxing career, and it doesn't tell the full story anyway, because Oscar did not beat the best man in the division for all of those titles, so he was not a de facto champion at all of these weights (Bredahl at sfw and Sturm at mw were clearly not close to being the top man in the division). So although Oscar was a 6-div champ by numbers, one numerical statistic cannot tell the full story. For me, Hagler beat better fighters and was clearly the greater fighter, but this truth cannot be proven by numbers or statistics.

I think your analysis does a similar thing, but instead of focusing on weight divisions, it focuses on title defences.


Sven Ottke made more title defences than Sugar Ray Leonard, and retired with less career losses than SRL. Does the logic in the thread-starting post apply here too?


OK, Floyd made more title defences, but that is a numerical statistic. If you look beyond the numbers, you would find...


Among Floyd's title defences:

Gregorio Vargas
Victoriano Sosa
Phillip N'Dou
Henry Bruseles
Carlos Genera
****** Juuko
Carlos Alberto Ramon Rios


Among Pacquiao's wins that were not for 1 of the 4 major world titles:

Marco Antonio Barrera (1st fight)
Erik Morales (their 2nd fight)
Oscar Larios
Erik Morales (their 3rd fight)
Marco Antonio Barrera (their 2nd fight)
Oscar De La Hoya
Ricky Hatton



You know, you tell me which is the more significant and impressive body of work there?

Numbers and statistics are useful, but they are only of peripheral importance when considered alongside a deeper examination of a fighters' resume I think. There is some merit to this thread, as Floyd has had a good career, and has an outstanding pedigree and I suppose there is a case to be made for him being the greater fighter at this stage, but I think I would disagree with this thread because if you look deeper than the numbers, at the resume and other factors such as achievements of weight-jumping, I think Pacquiao has a clear edge on Money May at the moment. :good

[asero]

just compare their hearts and you would know the difference.

[Ezzard]

I agree with Popkins.

I'd also argue that Floyd is defintiely the bigger man of the two. I think that's obvious.

[Morrissey]

Definitely Pac is higher in the ATG sense.

[lefthook31]

Good background knowledge in this post, but I would disagree a little with the focus of your argument.

To me, this post is a bit like saying:


"Oscar De La Hoya is a greater fighter than Marvin Hagler because Oscar won titles in more weight divisions. Oscar won titles in 6 divisions, Marvin won titles in 1 division. Six beats one"

To reduce the argument to focusing on one numerical statistic doesn't really tell the full story. Oscar did win titles in more weight divisions, but that is only one facet of a boxing career, and it doesn't tell the full story anyway, because Oscar did not beat the best man in the division for all of those titles, so he was not a de facto champion at all of these weights (Bredahl at sfw and Sturm at mw were clearly not close to being the top man in the division). So although Oscar was a 6-div champ by numbers, one numerical statistic cannot tell the full story. For me, Hagler beat better fighters and was clearly the greater fighter, but this truth cannot be proven by numbers or statistics.

I think your analysis does a similar thing, but instead of focusing on weight divisions, it focuses on title defences.


Sven Ottke made more title defences than Sugar Ray Leonard, and retired with less career losses than SRL. Does the logic in the thread-starting post apply here too?


OK, Floyd made more title defences, but that is a numerical statistic. If you look beyond the numbers, you would find...


Among Floyd's title defences:

Gregorio Vargas
Victoriano Sosa
Phillip N'Dou
Henry Bruseles
Carlos Genera
****** Juuko
Carlos Alberto Ramon Rios


Among Pacquiao's wins that were not for 1 of the 4 major world titles:

Marco Antonio Barrera (1st fight)
Erik Morales (their 2nd fight)
Oscar Larios
Erik Morales (their 3rd fight)
Marco Antonio Barrera (their 2nd fight)
Oscar De La Hoya
Ricky Hatton



You know, you tell me which is the more significant and impressive body of work there?

Numbers and statistics are useful, but they are only of peripheral importance when considered alongside a deeper examination of a fighters' resume I think. There is some merit to this thread, as Floyd has had a good career, and has an outstanding pedigree and I suppose there is a case to be made for him being the greater fighter at this stage, but I think I would disagree with this thread because if you look deeper than the numbers, at the resume and other factors such as achievements of weight-jumping, I think Pacquiao has a clear edge on Money May at the moment. :good
Defenses and title fights are a factor, but not as much as who and when these guys fought their respective opponents. Floyd fought better fighters overall and at their respective best in their careers, as compared to Pac.

[Popkins]

Defenses and title fights are a factor, but not as much as who and when these guys fought their respective opponents. Floyd fought better fighters overall and at their respective best in their careers, as compared to Pac.

I disagree completely. I don't think it is possible to justify saying Floyd has fought better fighters overall. He just hasn't. It isn't even very close IMO. But fair enough mate, your opinion.

[lefthook31]

Lets see.

Common opponents
JMM Floyd shut out Pac went life and death with hard to say size was a factor after Pac handled Cotto and Hatton easily
ODLH both wins, Floyd at 54 Pac at 47
Hatton, both Ko's Floyd later, but stylistically he will almost always KO late.

Floyds good comp
Judah
Mitchell
Gatti
Corley
Castillo x2
Ndou
Jesus Chavez
Diego Corrales
Angel Manfredy KO2
Carlos Hernandez
JMM
Hatton
ODLH at 54
Genaro Hernandez somewhat old

Pacs good comp
Cotto by far best win at 45
Jmm draw possibly twice?
Morales x2 loss and win
Barrera x2 argueably done in the second fight
ODLH at 47
Diaz
Ledwaba
Lucero


I dont really see how there is any dobut especially considering Floyd is undefeated and some of Pac's comp can be questionable as far as timing in their careers. Morales and Barrera were pretty beat on, and ODLH died to make weight.

[Popkins]

Lets see.

Common opponents
JMM Floyd shut out Pac went life and death with hard to say size was a factor after Pac handled Cotto
ODLH both wins, Floyd at 54 Pac at 47
Hatton, both Ko's Floyd later, but stylistically he will almost always KO late.

Floyds good comp
Judah
Mitchell
Gatti
Corley
Castillo x2
Ndou
Jesus Chavez
Diego Corrales
Angel Manfredy KO2
Carlos Hernandez
JMM
Hatton
ODLH at 54
Genaro Hernandez somewhat old

Pacs good comp
Cotto by far best win at 45
Jmm draw possibly twice?
Morales x2 loss and win
Barrera x2 argueably done in the second fight
ODLH at 47
Diaz
Ledwaba
Lucero


I dont really see how there is any dobut especially considering Floyd is undefeated and some of Pac's comp can be questionable as far as timing in their careers. Morales and Barrera were pretty beat on, and ODLH died to make weight.

I'm not going to make a similarly skewed list of my own, but I think at least 80% of Classic posters would concur that Pacquiao's resume is clearly better.

[lefthook31]

I'm not going to make a similarly skewed list of my own, but I think at least 80% of Classic posters would concur that Pacquiao's resume is clearly better.
I dont know about that. Just the sheer number of better opponents alone puts Floyd ahead, not to mention Pac has knockout losses against no name opponents, and went life and death and drew with some of the better ones. Maybe some of the 80% can chime in?

[Vanboxingfan]

At the end of the day, we all agree they need to fight to see whose best. And if the fight never takes place you can bet your bottom dollar it will be PBF who gets greedy and never makes it happen.

I go back and forth with PBF, truthfully, I'd like to see he actually have to fight a couple of times, not just box but get in the trenches a' la' Duran and fight. Pac would force him to have to do that. PBF would probably have a speed advantage, but I think Pac's determination and power would force PBF to have to fight at some point in the contest. And in terms of comp, the Cotto win, surpasses any of PBF's wins.

Too bad SSM is past his best, he would have fit into this mix nicely.

[PowerPuncher]

I'm a Mayweather fan but I have to admit Pacquaio has fought the greater fighters overal, however Floyd was more dominant overall and unbeaten. Floyd is a little bigger, Pacquaio is a weight drainer while Floyd is a fight at the weight on fight night type, so the size difference is exagerated.

I clearly see Mayweather as the better more complete boxer, Pacquaio has achieved more though. Floyds wins over bigger men and very good but not great fighters get underrated. Floyd also didnt have a MAB/Morales/Marquez in his fight class, he was unlucky Tyszu retired/got beat before they got to fight. He tried to make fights with Hamed/Mosley at different times and Cotto/Margarito were Arrum fighters making fights hard to make if he didnt want to be in a locked in contract.

There is also hypocrazy:

1. Mayweather fights Judah coming off a loss it gets shit, Pacquaio beats Morales/Cotto coming off a loss hes a legend
2. People have put Pacquaio at the top of their P4P list after he beat 2 men coming off losses to Mayweather.
3. Mayweather has close and somewhat unimpressive wins over the bigger Castillo and gets criticised, Pacquaio gets credit for arguably losing twice to Marquez
4. Pacquaio gets credit for being more dominant against 2 of Mayweathers opponents but Mayweather doesnt get credit for dominating the man who arguably beat Pacquaio. All those fighters were at less preferable weights and more faded
5. Pacquaio's opponents in their prime were Barrera 1, Marquez, Lebwada - Floyds were Corrales, Castillo, Hatton, Judah (imo).

Lets hope they fight to settle the dispute in the ring

[Popkins]

I'm a Mayweather fan but I have to admit Pacquaio has fought the greater fighters overal, however Floyd was more dominant overall and unbeaten. Floyd is a little bigger, Pacquaio is a weight drainer while Floyd is a fight at the weight on fight night type, so the size difference is exagerated.

I clearly see Mayweather as the better more complete boxer, Pacquaio has achieved more though. Floyds wins over bigger men and very good but not great fighters get underrated. Floyd also didnt have a MAB/Morales/Marquez in his fight class, he was unlucky Tyszu retired/got beat before they got to fight. He tried to make fights with Hamed/Mosley at different times and Cotto/Margarito were Arrum fighters making fights hard to make if he didnt want to be in a locked in contract.

There is also hypocrazy:

1. Mayweather fights Judah coming off a loss it gets shit, Pacquaio beats Morales/Cotto coming off a loss hes a legend
2. People have put Pacquaio at the top of their P4P list after he beat 2 men coming off losses to Mayweather.
3. Mayweather has close and somewhat unimpressive wins over the bigger Castillo and gets criticised, Pacquaio gets credit for arguably losing twice to Marquez
4. Pacquaio gets credit for being more dominant against 2 of Mayweathers opponents but Mayweather doesnt get credit for dominating the man who arguably beat Pacquaio. All those fighters were at less preferable weights and more faded
5. Pacquaio's opponents in their prime were Barrera 1, Marquez, Lebwada - Floyds were Corrales, Castillo, Hatton, Judah (imo).

Lets hope they fight to settle the dispute in the ring

Was Cotto coming off a loss? :huh I thought he dominated and KO'd Jennings for the WBO title, then outpointed Joshua Clottey.

And do people not rate the Judah win that highly because he was coming off a loss? :huh I think it was because Judah was never as good as Morales or Cotto to start with, and has lost every big fight he has ever had, unlike Morales and Cotto.

Pacquiao was at the top of the p4p rankings for beating Oscar & Hatton? :huh I think it was immediately after Floyd retired, then solidified after he beat Marquez.

Mayweather gets criticized for two unimpressive displays vs JLC, but Pac gets credit for losing twice to Marquez? :huh You must visit a different ESB from me if you think Pac gets full credit for the Marquez performances. For what it's worth, Marquez was definitely a better fighter than Castillo.

Pac gets credit for dominating 2 of Mayweather's opponents but Mayweather doesn't get credit for dominating Marquez? :huh Surely you see the difference here? Mayweather v Marquez was a mismatch because of size, Marquez jumped 2 divisions, far beyond the highest he should ever have gone (135) and gave away considerable weight on the night. The Marquez that Floyd fought was not even a shadow of the man Pac fought. You could say the same about the Oscar that Pac fought, but again you must be visiting a different ESB from me if you see Pac getting showered with credit for that win. Your argument falls down when it comes to Hatton. Unlike Mayweather-Marquez and Pac-Oscar, there were no mitigating circumstances there. Hatton was undefeated at his best weight, was coming off a dominant win over the consensus number 2 in his division, and is a naturally bigger/heavier man than Pac, and he got annihilated. By any/all standards, that was a fantastic win. Mayweather-Marquez can't even be compared by any right-minded boxing fan.

And your list of prime opponents? :huh Too subjective and skewed to really go into. The fact, which I think you agree with yourself, is that Pac has fought and beat better opponents on the whole. :good

[Vanboxingfan]

I'm a Mayweather fan but I have to admit Pacquaio has fought the greater fighters overal, however Floyd was more dominant overall and unbeaten. Floyd is a little bigger, Pacquaio is a weight drainer while Floyd is a fight at the weight on fight night type, so the size difference is exagerated.

I clearly see Mayweather as the better more complete boxer, Pacquaio has achieved more though. Floyds wins over bigger men and very good but not great fighters get underrated. Floyd also didnt have a MAB/Morales/Marquez in his fight class, he was unlucky Tyszu retired/got beat before they got to fight. He tried to make fights with Hamed/Mosley at different times and Cotto/Margarito were Arrum fighters making fights hard to make if he didnt want to be in a locked in contract.

There is also hypocrazy:

1. Mayweather fights Judah coming off a loss it gets shit, Pacquaio beats Morales/Cotto coming off a loss hes a legend
2. People have put Pacquaio at the top of their P4P list after he beat 2 men coming off losses to Mayweather.
3. Mayweather has close and somewhat unimpressive wins over the bigger Castillo and gets criticised, Pacquaio gets credit for arguably losing twice to Marquez
4. Pacquaio gets credit for being more dominant against 2 of Mayweathers opponents but Mayweather doesnt get credit for dominating the man who arguably beat Pacquaio. All those fighters were at less preferable weights and more faded
5. Pacquaio's opponents in their prime were Barrera 1, Marquez, Lebwada - Floyds were Corrales, Castillo, Hatton, Judah (imo).

Lets hope they fight to settle the dispute in the ring

Sometimes the issue isn't whether you win or loss, but how you fight that determines your legacy. Pacquaio's thought of by the fans as a much more exciting fighter because well he fights. Floyd boxes beautifully and wins nicely for those who appreciate boxing. But for those who think boxing and fighting are the same thing, he wins are unconvincing because there's not enought drama and fire in them. I personally can appreciate both styles but I do admit I enjoy a good technician a'la Duran displaying both great defense and offensive at the same time. Don't see Floyd do that enough. If he would have fought Cotto that would have been a good fight, as would a fight between him and SSM, who even past his prime would give him a hell of a fight.

[PowerPuncher]

1. Was Cotto coming off a loss? :huh I thought he dominated and KO'd Jennings for the WBO title, then outpointed Joshua Clottey.

2. And do people not rate the Judah win that highly because he was coming off a loss? :huh I think it was because Judah was never as good as Morales or Cotto to start with, and has lost every big fight he has ever had, unlike Morales and Cotto.

3. Pacquiao was at the top of the p4p rankings for beating Oscar & Hatton? :huh I think it was immediately after Floyd retired, then solidified after he beat Marquez.

4. Mayweather gets criticized for two unimpressive displays vs JLC, but Pac gets credit for losing twice to Marquez? :huh You must visit a different ESB from me if you think Pac gets full credit for the Marquez performances. For what it's worth, Marquez was definitely a better fighter than Castillo.

5. Pac gets credit for dominating 2 of Mayweather's opponents but Mayweather doesn't get credit for dominating Marquez? :huh Surely you see the difference here? Mayweather v Marquez was a mismatch because of size, Marquez jumped 2 divisions, far beyond the highest he should ever have gone (135) and gave away considerable weight on the night. The Marquez that Floyd fought was not even a shadow of the man Pac fought. You could say the same about the Oscar that Pac fought, but again you must be visiting a different ESB from me if you see Pac getting showered with credit for that win. Your argument falls down when it comes to Hatton. Unlike Mayweather-Marquez and Pac-Oscar, there were no mitigating circumstances there.

6. Hatton was undefeated at his best weight, was coming off a dominant win over the consensus number 2 in his division, and is a naturally bigger/heavier man than Pac, and he got annihilated. By any/all standards, that was a fantastic win. Mayweather-Marquez can't even be compared by any right-minded boxing fan.

7. And your list of prime opponents? :huh Too subjective and skewed to really go into. The fact, which I think you agree with yourself, is that Pac has fought and beat better opponents on the whole. :good

1. Cotto got a gift against Clottey in many peoples eyes, and yes he got KTFO a year before, he looked poor against Clottey to be fair, landed little, was hurt and ran in the late rounds and this was against a man who was throwing about 15shots a round

2. Judah was at least undisputed WW champ, and Mayweather-Judah was a massive fight when announced that many picked Judah win, then Judah lost fighting a mando but the fight was planned before that. He didnt lose every big fight he had because he beat the undisputed WW champ. Morales and Cotto havent been undisputed anything in their careers. Maybe they were better in their prime but Cotto beat a past prime ring rusty Judah

3. Solidified after he got what some consider a gift decision against Marquez?

4. Castillo has beat better fighters than Marquez in Prime Casamayor, Prime Corrales, Prime Stevie Johnston, Bazan, and arguably Mayweather himself. Maybe Marquez was better and had better skills but he didnt beat better men

5. there is a size difference, I mentioned Marquez wasnt at his optimal weight but neither was DLH and neither Hatton who was drained and put in 15lbs of water after the fight

6. Umm no Mallignaggi who had just received 2 gift decisions back to back was not consensus no2 in the division he was always a below average fighter with no pop and no good wins, Witter/Bradley/etc were all better in the weak 140lb division. Hatton had been close to beign ko'd the fight before against Lazcano

7. Not really Mayweather has fought more men in their prime

8. Another point is Mayweathers fought more styles than Pac, whos been kept away from speedy defensive mover types for the main part

9. DUCKING - we all hear about who Mayweathers ducked. But Roach kept Pacquaio safely away from Joan Guzman from 122-130lbs, imo Guzman was his biggest challenge in those weight classes. We didnt see Pacquaio fight prime 130lbers like Guzman, Soto, Barrios, Valero. Didnt see him take any of the top5 LWs. Not saying he would have lost to them but they are missing names and Guzman was a massive threat

[lefthook31]

Power Puncher youre right about Guzman, he was a major threat, but I would like to know how you can say Pac has fought the better fighters overall? Take into consideration the weight and career status of these great fighters he faced as well.

[The Mongoose]

1. Cotto got a gift against Clottey in many peoples eyes, and yes he got KTFO a year before, he looked poor against Clottey to be fair, landed little, was hurt and ran in the late rounds and this was against a man who was throwing about 15shots a round


A close fight is hardly a gift decision. :-(

You also neglected to mention that Cotto suffered a horrific gash over his eye very early in the fight from a headbutt. It was bleeding out of control most of the fight, and obviously hindering his vision as he was bravely fighting with one hand while using his other glove to stop blood from pouring into his eye at several points during the fight. After being dropped by a jab in the first round this is when Clottey started turning it up and winning rounds. Hmmmmm....nah, you have to discredit Pacman don't let that get in the way of reality or anything.

[Minotauro]

I would put Manny a fair amount higher. Almost always took the biggest challenges and has a better resume beaten far more greats/hall of famers.

[Popkins]

I would put Manny a fair amount higher. Almost always took the biggest challenges and has a better resume beaten far more greats/hall of famers.

:deal

As I said, 80%+ of Classic regulars would concur.

[The Mongoose]

Lets see.

I dont really see how there is any dobut especially considering Floyd is undefeated and some of Pac's comp can be questionable as far as timing in their careers. Morales and Barrera were pretty beat on, and ODLH died to make weight.

If were going to put a microscope to Pacman's resume why not Floyd's?


Judah was coming off an embarressing hometown loss to a journeyman.

Speaking of journeymen...Baldomir. Yeah, he beat the faded Judah and Gatti to earn his shot.

Gatti wasn't beat on after the ultraviolent Ward trilogy?

Hatton's only fight above 145 was an ugly, ugly win over Collazo...and he quickly moved back down until the big money of the Floyd fight. Pacman at least beat him at his most comfortable weight.

Marquez had never fought above 140.

[lefthook31]

If were going to put a microscope to Pacman's resume why not Floyd's?


Judah was coming off an embarressing hometown loss to a journeyman.

Speaking of journeymen...Baldomir. Yeah, he beat the faded Judah and Gatti to earn his shot.
Baldomir beat the guy who was supposed to beat him. Judah lost his title, Mayweather fought him to get the title. Dont see anything wrong with that considering he held the WBC belt. Roach seemed to be just as interested in picking up title belts, and they werent all stellar fighters either.

Gatti wasn't beat on after the ultraviolent Ward trilogy?
Gatti was a showcase, considered somewhat dangerous because of his size advantage. There are many more fighters on the list and he was certainly more dangerous than a Oscar Larios who was just as faded and coming off a knockout loss to Vasquez.

Hatton's only fight above 145 was an ugly, ugly win over Collazo...and he quickly moved back down until the big money of the Floyd fight. Pacman at least beat him at his most comfortable weight.
Whats more impressive beating ODLH at his most comfortable weight or Ricky Hatton at his?
Marquez had never fought above 140.
So your saying if he fought Mayweather at a more natural weight, he could have maybe knocked him down or fought him to a draw?

See other comments above.

The sheer number of solid opponents, and win to loss record has Mayweather ahead really. Not saying he doesnt now deserve a fight to determine the worlds P4P best, but no way is Pac on a higher level in my book especially now that the myth of him being at such a physical size disadvantage has been shattered by him totally handeling a true solid welterweight.

[The Mongoose]

Mayweather fought him to get the title. Dont see anything wrong with that considering he held the WBC belt.

Never said there was anything wrong with it. Your answering a question I didn't ask.

Whats more impressive beating ODLH at his most comfortable weight or Ricky Hatton at his?

Irrevelant question that is subject to debate with numerous more variables to consider beyond weight. Presonally, I would rank the Cotto win over either.


So your saying if he fought Mayweather at a more natural weight, he could have maybe knocked him down or fought him to a draw?

lol, your being preposterous. You did not consider such details when you dragged down Pacman's resume. Do you believe ODLH would have fought Pacman to a SD had he not been forced to kill himself to make weight? Don't answer, that is a rhetorical question.

I'm not making an argument either way, just pointing out your inconsistenices....which your post further highlighted.

[PowerPuncher]

Power Puncher youre right about Guzman, he was a major threat, but I would like to know how you can say Pac has fought the better fighters overall? Take into consideration the weight and career status of these great fighters he faced as well.

Mainly because Pacquaio has Prime Barrera (well Im not sure he was at his best thb but near prime), Mayweather doesnt really have an equivilent who was as great in their prime.

[Addie]

You have to walk the walk in this game, and for that reason, Mayweather couldn't hold Manny's jockstrap in a P4P sense. Head to head? I expect a thorough spanking to be imposed upon Manny, but I've been wrong before.

[PowerPuncher]

A close fight is hardly a gift decision. :-(

You also neglected to mention that Cotto suffered a horrific gash over his eye very early in the fight from a headbutt. It was bleeding out of control most of the fight, and obviously hindering his vision as he was bravely fighting with one hand while using his other glove to stop blood from pouring into his eye at several points during the fight. After being dropped by a jab in the first round this is when Clottey started turning it up and winning rounds. Hmmmmm....nah, you have to discredit Pacman don't let that get in the way of reality or anything.

Bottom line Clottey beat Cotto on a fair scorecard, it was close but clear. You dont win fights by missing punches and running. And the 116-111 card was miles off

Funny how you use a flash KD as your best case for Cotto winning that fight. Cotto was getting outboxed before and after the cut

Great win for Pacquaio but COtto gets overrated

[Addie]

Bottom line Clottey beat Cotto on a fair scorecard, it was close but clear. You dont win fights by missing punches and running. And the 116-111 card was miles off

Funny how you use a flash KD as your best case for Cotto winning that fight. Cotto was getting outboxed before and after the cut

Great win for Pacquaio but COtto gets overrated

PP, you're a good poster. I particularly enjoy your opinions on Marco, but you're not really suggesting Mayweather can conceivably be rated higher P4P than Pacquiao at this point?

[Flea Man]

Defenses and title fights are a factor, but not as much as who and when these guys fought their respective opponents. Floyd fought better fighters overall and at their respective best in their careers, as compared to Pac.

Shocking post. You must be blinded by bias.

[Flea Man]

7. Not really Mayweather has fought more men in their prime

8. Another point is Mayweathers fought more styles than Pac, whos been kept away from speedy defensive mover types for the main part

9. DUCKING - we all hear about who Mayweathers ducked. But Roach kept Pacquaio safely away from Joan Guzman from 122-130lbs, imo Guzman was his biggest challenge in those weight classes. We didnt see Pacquaio fight prime 130lbers like Guzman, Soto, Barrios, Valero. Didnt see him take any of the top5 LWs. Not saying he would have lost to them but they are missing names and Guzman was a massive threat

lol@Valero. Wasn't Corrales weight-drained, psychologically fraught and on bail when Floyd spanked him? If were dissecting Pacs wins, which it seems we (you) are I guess it's fine to do so with Floyd?

[lefthook31]

Mayweather fought him to get the title. Dont see anything wrong with that considering he held the WBC belt.

Never said there was anything wrong with it. Your answering a question I didn't ask.

Whats more impressive beating ODLH at his most comfortable weight or Ricky Hatton at his?

Irrevelant question that is subject to debate with numerous more variables to consider beyond weight. Presonally, I would rank the Cotto win over either.


So your saying if he fought Mayweather at a more natural weight, he could have maybe knocked him down or fought him to a draw?

lol, your being preposterous. You did not consider such details when you dragged down Pacman's resume. Do you believe ODLH would have fought Pacman to a SD had he not been forced to kill himself to make weight? Don't answer, that is a rhetorical question.

I'm not making an argument either way, just pointing out your inconsistenices....which your post further highlighted.
You were picking so Im picking. Baldomir proved more than a journeymen. I dont think I drug it down, just how it is really. Noone has answered the question why using names as an example. Powerpuncher did using one fighter which doesnt cut it, but hes not sure Barrera was at his best. Im sure he wasnt.

[lefthook31]

Shocking post. You must be blinded by bias.
Care to come up with a better answer using some names and comparisons? Its easy to make a statement like you did.

[lefthook31]

Bottom line Clottey beat Cotto on a fair scorecard, it was close but clear. You dont win fights by missing punches and running. And the 116-111 card was miles off

Funny how you use a flash KD as your best case for Cotto winning that fight. Cotto was getting outboxed before and after the cut

Great win for Pacquaio but COtto gets overrated
I also though the knockdown sealed the deal for Cotto. That fight reminded me of Holyfield Mercer. Tough fight for both, Cotto sealed it with a knockdown, just like Evander did.

[(PimpThaSystem)]

I think Oscar being drained for the Pac fight is overstated. He weighed in at 150 for the Forbes fight for christsakes.

[The Mongoose]

Funny how you use a flash KD as your best case for Cotto winning that fight. Cotto was getting outboxed before and after the cut



:huh

I don't recall giving a round for round analysis of the fight in this thread. You know...I don't even recall suggesting that Cotto was winning on my cards? All I did was point out a pretty crucial fact you left out of your assesment of Cotto's performance.

[The Mongoose]

You were picking so Im picking. Baldomir proved more than a journeymen. I dont think I drug it down, just how it is really. Noone has answered the question why using names as an example.

Again, the point of my post eludes you. :patsch

Your so called so called challenge is a fallacy that will only result in a endless spiral of half ass analysis and not so subtle bias. Rather than looking at what each man's opponents brought to the table, the circumstances regarding the fight, and what was accomplished we have circular "picking. " Nothnig fair or even half way intelligent is going to come about your methods. That is why noone wants to engage you...except someone who shares your bias.

[kartog]

Lets see.

Common opponents
JMM Floyd shut out Pac went life and death with hard to say size was a factor after Pac handled Cotto and Hatton easily
ODLH both wins, Floyd at 54 Pac at 47
Hatton, both Ko's Floyd later, but stylistically he will almost always KO late.

Floyds good comp
Judah
Mitchell
Gatti
Corley
Castillo x2
Ndou
Jesus Chavez
Diego Corrales
Angel Manfredy KO2
Carlos Hernandez
JMM
Hatton
ODLH at 54
Genaro Hernandez somewhat old

Pacs good comp
Cotto by far best win at 45
Jmm draw possibly twice?
Morales x2 loss and win
Barrera x2 argueably done in the second fight
ODLH at 47
Diaz
Ledwaba
Lucero


I dont really see how there is any dobut especially considering Floyd is undefeated and some of Pac's comp can be questionable as far as timing in their careers. Morales and Barrera were pretty beat on, and ODLH died to make weight.
Hard to say?

Just because a guy like Pacquiao made weight-jumping a virtual non-issue doesn't mean Marquez also could, because they fought two close fights at a lower weight.

Let's be clear on this. Pacquiao is turning heads because he has done this division-climbing thing looking really, really good. It is not for every fighter to accomplish, not even for someone as good as a Juan Manuel Marquez. Obviously.

So don't ever try to put something into Floyd's win over Marquez that is not really there.

He beat up on a blown-up lightweight, who was arguably P4P#2 but totally unproven at the weight they fought at.

[The Wanderer]

Lets see.
Floyds good comp
Judah
Mitchell
Gatti
Corley
Castillo x2
Ndou
Jesus Chavez
Diego Corrales
Angel Manfredy KO2
Carlos Hernandez
JMM
Hatton
ODLH at 54
Genaro Hernandez somewhat old

Sorry man, but way too many guys off that list are B-listers, underachievers, or old/worn/not at their best weight when Floyd got to them. He deserves full credit for Corrales, Castillo 2, and a few others, and his destruction of Gatti is breathtaking, (even if Gatti was smashed by every other A-list fighter he fought and a fair number of B-Listers) but an awful lot of those names are less than stellar, and I'd say only two or three deserve to be mentioned in comparison to the half dozen or so top notch wins for Manny.

Currently I feel Manny deserves to be ranked higher.

[The Wanderer]

You were picking so Im picking. Baldomir proved more than a journeymen. I dont think I drug it down, just how it is really.

Well... if we're going to look at the list for Floyd as thoroughly as you did Pacquiao's, it would look something like this:

Judah - underachiever, biggest wins against Cory Spinks (who he went 1-1 with) and Corley. Lost to every other top flight fighter he faced.
Mitchell - 35 years old and 2 fights away from retirement
Gatti - Badly shopworn, smashed by every world class opponent he fought. (And many who were sub-world class)
Corley - Contender on his way to becoming a gatekeeper
Castillo x2 - First victory was controversial, as many felt Castillo did enough to win.
Ndou - B-lister, at best. Biggest accomplishments are winning WBU titles.
Jesus Chavez - B-lister.
Diego Corrales
Angel Manfredy - thoroughly beaten every time he tried to step up and win a real title. (WBU=jack shit)
Carlos Hernandez - Who?
JMM - 36 years old and well above his best weights, fighting at a weight where he'd never fought before
Hatton - could barely slip by Collazo in his only other bout at 147.
ODLH at 54
Genaro Hernandez - somewhat old, last bout of his career.

[kartog]

1. Cotto got a gift against Clottey in many peoples eyes, and yes he got KTFO a year before, he looked poor against Clottey to be fair, landed little, was hurt and ran in the late rounds and this was against a man who was throwing about 15shots a round

2. Judah was at least undisputed WW champ, and Mayweather-Judah was a massive fight when announced that many picked Judah win, then Judah lost fighting a mando but the fight was planned before that. He didnt lose every big fight he had because he beat the undisputed WW champ. Morales and Cotto havent been undisputed anything in their careers. Maybe they were better in their prime but Cotto beat a past prime ring rusty Judah

3. Solidified after he got what some consider a gift decision against Marquez?

4. Castillo has beat better fighters than Marquez in Prime Casamayor, Prime Corrales, Prime Stevie Johnston, Bazan, and arguably Mayweather himself. Maybe Marquez was better and had better skills but he didnt beat better men

5. there is a size difference, I mentioned Marquez wasnt at his optimal weight but neither was DLH and neither Hatton who was drained and put in 15lbs of water after the fight

6. Umm no Mallignaggi who had just received 2 gift decisions back to back was not consensus no2 in the division he was always a below average fighter with no pop and no good wins, Witter/Bradley/etc were all better in the weak 140lb division. Hatton had been close to beign ko'd the fight before against Lazcano

7. Not really Mayweather has fought more men in their prime

8. Another point is Mayweathers fought more styles than Pac, whos been kept away from speedy defensive mover types for the main part

9. DUCKING - we all hear about who Mayweathers ducked. But Roach kept Pacquaio safely away from Joan Guzman from 122-130lbs, imo Guzman was his biggest challenge in those weight classes. We didnt see Pacquaio fight prime 130lbers like Guzman, Soto, Barrios, Valero. Didnt see him take any of the top5 LWs. Not saying he would have lost to them but they are missing names and Guzman was a massive threat
Are you talking about Mayweather? :yep

[Flea Man]

Theres some thick cunts on this forum.

[riannu25]

Nice way of presenting your biases. As though at the start of their carrers Pac has as much pedigree as Floyd had. And that they are the same size huh?

Pac at minimum weight is 95 lbs. So no he's not 106 at 16. He was fighting at 106 division but weights much less. And most importantly at this age, he was a FULL-TIME construction worker (you know, mixing cement, driving nails) and PART-TIME boxer. At this age Floyd is a full-time boxer, beign coached from the start by a respectable trainer, with the American amateur system to refine his skill.

I won't delve into the amount of defenses he has. It's who you faced that matters here. It's not his fault Barrera thew his WBC belt, nor the 2nd best 130 lbr Morales just lost his belt to Barrera. The crux of the matter is he beat the very beast featherweights of the era. Might be the best featherweight mix of all time.

[lefthook31]

Hard to say?

Just because a guy like Pacquiao made weight-jumping a virtual non-issue doesn't mean Marquez also could, because they fought two close fights at a lower weight.

Let's be clear on this. Pacquiao is turning heads because he has done this division-climbing thing looking really, really good. It is not for every fighter to accomplish, not even for someone as good as a Juan Manuel Marquez. Obviously.

So don't ever try to put something into Floyd's win over Marquez that is not really there.

He beat up on a blown-up lightweight, who was arguably P4P#2 but totally unproven at the weight they fought at.
Yes I believe that as well, just playing devils advocate again, but also now less emphasis has to be put on Pacs weight jumping after Saturday night. He cleary was not at the deficit that so many felt he was in a lot of his fights. As far as Pac, Im a huge fan, I prefer to watch him over Mayweather anyday, but I dont rank him over Mayweather "yet". Floyd has had argueably one competitive fight, that he came back and dominated the second go round. Its not because of the level of fighters hes faced like all these bandwagon people seem to be jumping on lately because Floyd didnt take the fights the rival promoters needed and wanted at the time.
Floyd has domianted through all his weight classes, and remains undefeated against a solid group of fighters.
Im still waiting for someone to explain to me why Pacs resume supercedes Floyds with a intelligent response, and not a bunch of name calling and B.S. Thats what I love about these messageboards, rather than think of a good response for the discussion its just easier to resort to name calling. What good are these threads if there isnt differences of opinions and discussions? If Im so wrong, lets hear why.

[lefthook31]

Theres some thick cunts on this forum.
Another insightful post.

[Flea Man]

Another insightful post.

I only add genuine points in response to people who actually know what they're on about :good

[lefthook31]

I only add genuine points in response to people who actually know what they're on about :good
Another piss poor excuse for having no answer. :good

[Flea Man]

Fair enough. Just can't be arsed. I think I've made it clear with other posts exactly what I appreciate (level of opposition) this thread is basically dominated by general forum posters from what I can see. Don't like it, add me to your block list :good obviously I contribute nothing to this board anyway.

[lefthook31]

Fair enough. Just can't be arsed. I think I've made it clear with other posts exactly what I appreciate (level of opposition) this thread is basically dominated by general forum posters from what I can see. Don't like it, add me to your block list :good obviously I contribute nothing to this board anyway.
No Im not saying that. If you look at the post before the other one, I posed some questions. I think your a good poster, but obviously you took things a little personal. No need to get upset. Whats the purpose of having a difference of opinion if we cant constructively discuss it? If someone is so blatantly wrong, it should be easy to prove otherwise dont you think?

[Flea Man]

Yes I believe that as well, just playing devils advocate again, but also now less emphasis has to be put on Pacs weight jumping after Saturday night. He cleary was not at the deficit that so many felt he was in a lot of his fights. As far as Pac, Im a huge fan, I prefer to watch him over Mayweather anyday, but I dont rank him over Mayweather "yet". Floyd has had argueably one competitive fight, that he came back and dominated the second go round. Its not because of the level of fighters hes faced like all these bandwagon people seem to be jumping on lately because Floyd didnt take the fights the rival promoters needed and wanted at the time.
Floyd has domianted through all his weight classes, and remains undefeated against a solid group of fighters.
Im still waiting for someone to explain to me why Pacs resume supercedes Floyds with a intelligent response, and not a bunch of name calling and B.S. Thats what I love about these messageboards, rather than think of a good response for the discussion its just easier to resort to name calling. What good are these threads if there isnt differences of opinions and discussions? If Im so wrong, lets hear why.

I personally feel that Floyd dominance over Marquez WAS due to a size issue. Marquez wasn't as good at 145/7 and Pac wasn't as strong at 130 as he is now. Besides, I feel that Floyd would have a close fight if he actually fought someone who could challenge him. I don't believe the likes of Gatti, Hatton, Corrales, Baldomir, are as good scalps as say, Barrera, Cotto, Morales, Marquez, even taking into account the fact that when Pac DID beat Morales he wasn't at his best, and the two close fights with Marquez (Personally I had Marquez winning the 2nd fight 115-112, have misplaced my first scorecard, will do again, had Pac winning the first by 1 point I THINK not certain)

I don't place much on an undefeated record, nor do I detract from a fighter who has losses (especially when you consider what Pac has done post-Morales 1) HOWEVER if Floyd beats Pac it poses a difficult question;

Where to rank Floyd? Undoubtedly Pac has a better resume at the moment, however if Floyd were to beat him it would prove he is the better fighter IMO, mainly due to Pac being at the peak of his powers now (IMO) unbelievably at his highest weight.

Do you take into account Floyd's mediocre (for his talent) opposition thus far, or Pacs very good resume throughout his career despite the loss to Floyd?????

Put it this way, I'd be far more inclined to rate Floyd's abilities if he'd proven them against top-level opposition. Mosley and Pac are waiting for him. If he beats them both I'd be convinced that his radar-like defence and brilliant ring generalship wasn't just down to him fighting opponents that really weren't fantastic to start off with.

[lefthook31]

Well I think those are all fair points, but I also believe many people forget Floyd fought some tough customers himself, fighters that proved to be pretty good. The Corrales fight was one of the bigger ones somewhat like Pacs Cotto fight. Corrales had burst on the scene by his destruction of Roberto Garcia, was beating some solid guys and was in the prime of his career. The excuse of weight was an easy one, especially after Floyd completely took him apart but Corrales was an active 130 pound fighter and he didnt show too much physical weakness in the fight, other than getting his butt kicked. Castillo was somewhat unknown, but he was an excellent fighter (also in his prime), at the time Floyd fought him, and maybe Floyd didnt take him as seriously the first fight, but the second fight was fairly one sided. Maybe Judah and Mitchell were past their best, but so were Morales and Barrera, one of which beat Manny past his respective best (not to compare the four).
I dont only look at an undefeated record, but I also dont think fighter for fighter, there is much difference of level of opposition taking into consideration the timing of the fights.
I also think Mayweather had a big size advantage over JMM, but now seeing how Pac handled Cotto Im not so sure he didnt have a big advantage over JMM as well, so I know take into consideration some of his losses, or perceived losses (draws), against some of the more technical fighters.
Like I said, I think if he beats Mayweather, hes obviously going to rank higher, but at this point, Floyd is still ahead in my book.
This is often a common problem for a fighter that completely dominants opponents. His competition gets downgraded quickly in the eyes of the fans. Some of the fighters he fought would have certainly been more justified had he struggled a bit more. Look what the Castillo fight did for Castillo.

[Flea Man]

Well I think those are all fair points, but I also believe many people forget Floyd fought some tough customers himself, fighters that proved to be pretty good. The Corrales fight was one of the bigger ones somewhat like Pacs Cotto fight. Corrales had burst on the scene by his destruction of Roberto Garcia, was beating some solid guys and was in the prime of his career. The excuse of weight was an easy one, especially after Floyd completely took him apart but Corrales was an active 130 pound fighter and he didnt show too much physical weakness in the fight, other than getting his butt kicked. Castillo was somewhat unknown, but he was an excellent fighter (also in his prime), at the time Floyd fought him, and maybe Floyd didnt take him as seriously the first fight, but the second fight was fairly one sided. Maybe Judah and Mitchell were past their best, but so were Morales and Barrera, one of which beat Manny past his respective best (not to compare the four).
I dont only look at an undefeated record, but I also dont think fighter for fighter, there is much difference of level of opposition taking into consideration the timing of the fights.
I also think Mayweather had a big size advantage over JMM, but now seeing how Pac handled Cotto Im not so sure he didnt have a big advantage over JMM as well, so I know take into consideration some of his losses, or perceived losses (draws), against some of the more technical fighters.
Like I said, I think if he beats Mayweather, hes obviously going to rank higher, but at this point, Floyd is still ahead in my book.

As far as I know, Corrales wanted to move to 135. Anyways, he was in the midst of a court hearing and knew he was going to jail. I'm not nit-picking, but was his head as 'in the game' as it could've been.

Not trying to discredit Floyd or anything, but when we're doing as we're doing now, incessantly picking apart resumes in order to determine who truly is better, I don't think it's a moot point.

[Flea Man]

Well I think those are all fair points, but I also believe many people forget Floyd fought some tough customers himself, fighters that proved to be pretty good. The Corrales fight was one of the bigger ones somewhat like Pacs Cotto fight. Corrales had burst on the scene by his destruction of Roberto Garcia, was beating some solid guys and was in the prime of his career. The excuse of weight was an easy one, especially after Floyd completely took him apart but Corrales was an active 130 pound fighter and he didnt show too much physical weakness in the fight, other than getting his butt kicked. Castillo was somewhat unknown, but he was an excellent fighter (also in his prime), at the time Floyd fought him, and maybe Floyd didnt take him as seriously the first fight, but the second fight was fairly one sided. Maybe Judah and Mitchell were past their best, but so were Morales and Barrera, one of which beat Manny past his respective best (not to compare the four).
I dont only look at an undefeated record, but I also dont think fighter for fighter, there is much difference of level of opposition taking into consideration the timing of the fights.
I also think Mayweather had a big size advantage over JMM, but now seeing how Pac handled Cotto Im not so sure he didnt have a big advantage over JMM as well, so I know take into consideration some of his losses, or perceived losses (draws), against some of the more technical fighters.
Like I said, I think if he beats Mayweather, hes obviously going to rank higher, but at this point, Floyd is still ahead in my book.
This is often a common problem for a fighter that completely dominants opponents. His competition gets downgraded quickly in the eyes of the fans. Some of the fighters he fought would have certainly been more justified had he struggled a bit more. Look what the Castillo fight did for Castillo.

I usually look to a fighters form pre and post a fight I'm discussing. Castillo was good, no doubt. But as good a win as Cotto? No. Baldomir had com off a decent win over Judah, but is that the kinda' win an 'ATG' is made of?

No. However, the destruction of Barrera is. The win over Cotto is somewhat tained by Cotto's slipping in recent years and his indestructible nature being taken away by Margarito, but it's an impressive win nonetheless.

Again, the Hatton win loses some of it's mystique by A)Floyd getting there first B) Hattons dwindling punch resistance as proven by the Lazcano fight, but Pac's performance was far superior to Floyds IMO.

[lefthook31]

As far as I know, Corrales wanted to move to 135. Anyways, he was in the midst of a court hearing and knew he was going to jail. I'm not nit-picking, but was his head as 'in the game' as it could've been.

Not trying to discredit Floyd or anything, but when we're doing as we're doing now, incessantly picking apart resumes in order to determine who truly is better, I don't think it's a moot point.
Yes but this was the fight he wanted. They were amatuer nemesis, and hated each other. Corrales wanted to beat Floyd more than anything, and was the one constantly calling for the fight, correct?

[lefthook31]

I usually look to a fighters form pre and post a fight I'm discussing. Castillo was good, no doubt. But as good a win as Cotto? No. Baldomir had com off a decent win over Judah, but is that the kinda' win an 'ATG' is made of?

No. However, the destruction of Barrera is. The win over Cotto is somewhat tained by Cotto's slipping in recent years and his indestructible nature being taken away by Margarito, but it's an impressive win nonetheless.

Again, the Hatton win loses some of it's mystique by A)Floyd getting there first B) Hattons dwindling punch resistance as proven by the Lazcano fight, but Pac's performance was far superior to Floyds IMO.
I said the Corrales win was like the Cotto win. Corrales struggled with weight, but like you said the same can be said for Cotto slipping in recent years and having a weight restriction.

[Flea Man]

I said the Corrales win was like the Cotto win. Corrales struggled with weight, but like you said the same can be said for Cotto slipping in recent years and having a weight restriction.

Except for the fact that Cotto was clearly the better fighter. His resume was solid, even with the loss to Marg and the close fight with Clottey (who would make most look bad to be fair) did Corrales have anything resembling a points win over Shane Mosley? No. Unfair. Kinda'. Floyd is unlucky not to have come across any solid fighters really, only decent ones. He has a chance to rectify that now, even if he doesn't fight Pac there's the winner of Mosley-Berto (I'm sure he'd jump at the chance to fight Berto should he somehow pull off the upset, but I feel Shane will stop Berto anyway)

[lefthook31]

I usually look to a fighters form pre and post a fight I'm discussing. Castillo was good, no doubt. But as good a win as Cotto? No. Baldomir had com off a decent win over Judah, but is that the kinda' win an 'ATG' is made of?

No. However, the destruction of Barrera is. The win over Cotto is somewhat tained by Cotto's slipping in recent years and his indestructible nature being taken away by Margarito, but it's an impressive win nonetheless.

Again, the Hatton win loses some of it's mystique by A)Floyd getting there first B) Hattons dwindling punch resistance as proven by the Lazcano fight, but Pac's performance was far superior to Floyds IMO.
Seems most are pointing to the Barrera win, but Barrera was a 60 fight veteran been through some serious wars.

[Flea Man]

Seems most are pointing to the Barrera win, but Barrera was a 60 fight veteran been through some serious wars.

So was Arguello when Pryor beat him, doesn't make it a bad win does it? Hearns over Duran?

[lefthook31]

So was Arguello when Pryor beat him, doesn't make it a bad win does it? Hearns over Duran?
I didnt say it was a bad win, just think there is a difference in beating a guy in his prime or at his best, as will be case if Pac and Mayweather fight each other.

[Flea Man]

I honestly feel Barrera, who was less reckless and more refined, was at or around his best when Pac beat him.

[Ezzard]

Floyd has one A-class win in a fight that was very, very close.

Pac has at least 5. Then when you consider he's fighting guys like Hatton and Cotto much further North than Floyd then of course Pac is way ahead.

I think Floyd is the better all round boxer but who knows how the styles will mesh...

Anyone who thinks that the size difference is negligible is wrong. Try some competitive sparring with someone bigger than yourself...

[lefthook31]

Floyd has one A-class win in a fight that was very, very close.

Pac has at least 5. Then when you consider he's fighting guys like Hatton and Cotto much further North than Floyd then of course Pac is way ahead.

I think Floyd is the better all round boxer but who knows how the styles will mesh...

Anyone who thinks that the size difference is negligible is wrong. Try some competitive sparring with someone bigger than yourself...
I dont know if you are being fair. Your last paragraph is my point really, maybe the size difference wasnt as big as originally thought. He has never looked at a strength deficit against any of his opponents, including Hatton or Cotto. What do you think?

[Addie]

I honestly feel Barrera, who was less reckless and more refined, was at or around his best when Pac beat him.

He still looks sluggish too me, and completely naive as to what was about to hit him that night. I've maintained, Barrera could have beaten Featherweight Pacquiao with the right preparation, mindset, and strategy, but of course, he's developed into something different altogether these days. Back then, he was very beatable.

[Flea Man]

He still looks sluggish too me, and completely naive as to what was about to hit him that night. I've maintained, Barrera could have beaten Featherweight Pacquiao with the right preparation, mindset, and strategy, but of course, he's developed into something different altogether these days. Back then, he was very beatable.

I feel he was a decent blend. I know you're a massive Barrera nuthugger (I don't blame ya, he was QUALITY and I'm the same with Arguello), but there's no way he'd beat the Pac that fought that night. It was hardly one-sided, Pac was just better. A more aggressive Barrera would've been stopped, and the later Barrera lost on points.

[Addie]

I feel he was a decent blend. I know you're a massive Barrera nuthugger, but there's no way he'd beat the Pac that fought that night. It was hardly one-sided, Pac was just better. A more aggressive Barrera would've been stopped, and the later Barrera lost on points.

Calm down with that shit Fleaman, I'm not a nut-hugger. That implies I lose all sense of perspective whenever we're discussing the great man, and that would be untrue. Of course, he's my all-time favorite fighter and I'd rather watch him masterfully pick apart Naseem Hamed than watch the sunrise, but I like to think I know the man's limitations.

Go back and watch the tapes, there were so many openings on Manny that night, it's almost crazy to think Marco couldn't find a way to land more shots. If you believe his preparation was tainted, not really important, but Marco could have performed much better than he did, much like Duran often put in sub-par performances against Benitez and Laing.

[frankenfrank]

pac repeated floyd's big wins in a much more convincing manner.
also against marquez pac was closer to finishing him , floyd was not .
pac overwhelmed him early floyd did not.
also hatton and delahoya. pac so more convincing.
also cotto , which the catchweight did effect , still floyd who is cotto's size ducked him and will duck pac at least according to himself currently.
pac rates higher p4p and even h2h despite his 2 stoppage losses which one of them was a low blow foul.

[Flea Man]

Calm down with that shit Fleaman, I'm not a nut-hugger. That implies I lose all sense of perspective whenever we're discussing the great man, and that would be untrue. Of course, he's my all-time favorite fighter and I'd rather watch him masterfully pick apart Naseem Hamed than watch the sunrise, but I like to think I know the man's limitations.

Go back and watch the tapes, there were so many openings on Manny that night, it's almost crazy to think Marco couldn't find a way to land more shots. If you believe his preparation was tainted, not really important, but Marco could have performed much better than he did, much like Duran often put in sub-par performances against Benitez and Laing.

:good

I do think Manny would beat him whatever the circumstances.

[Addie]

:good

I do think Manny would beat him whatever the circumstances.

I can't really disagree with that, Manny was great on the night.

[Ezzard]

I dont know if you are being fair. Your last paragraph is my point really, maybe the size difference wasnt as big as originally thought. He has never looked at a strength deficit against any of his opponents, including Hatton or Cotto. What do you think?

Having the same debate with my best mate. I think of it like this. He's still at a disadvantage. If pac had been the natural welter and Cotto moved up from Feather then Pac would have finished it in the 3rd.

The fact that Pac makes it look like there is no advantage to the bigger man just proves what a great fighter he is.

I still expect Floyd to beat him though.

[lefthook31]

Having the same debate with my best mate. I think of it like this. He's still at a disadvantage. If pac had been the natural welter and Cotto moved up from Feather then Pac would have finished it in the 3rd.

The fact that Pac makes it look like there is no advantage to the bigger man just proves what a great fighter he is.

I still expect Floyd to beat him though.
Fair enough. I look at it like this, and I know Floyd Mayweather does too. Its kind of like Felix Trinidad. He was always one dimensional somewhat, but his extreme punching power could offset most styles. As soon as he was on a more even playing field, some of his shortcomings were exposed meaning he was a welterweight with middleweight power.
If Mayweather completely dominates Pac, than I think this will confirm that theory. Personally I think Pac has more dimension to his game than Trinidad, but its going to be interesting to see how he deals with Floyd. The Cotto fight to me proved he is in fact a true welterweight, and something I always felt. I always thought he had welterweight power with lightweight speed. Now he will be facing everything he is and more against Mayweather. This will be the fight that establishes the P4P best.