Request for Classic opinions on current version of Pacquiao vs the best jr-welters

[Popkins]

The current version of Manny Pacquiao
(the guy who fought Oscar, Hatton and Cotto weighing between 140 and 144lbs)

Versus

A selection of the best fighters who have ever graced the modern Light-Welterweight Division



1 - Kostya Tszyu
2 - Aaron Pryor
3 - Julio Cesar Chavez
4 - Meldrick Taylor
5 - Oscar De La Hoya


How do you see each fight going? :good

[My2Sense]

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised to see him beat all of them.

I certainly would favor him over Tszyu and Pryor.

[lefthook31]

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised to see him beat all of them.

I certainly would favor him over Tszyu and Pryor.
agreed

[WhataRock]

Im very confident Chavez beats him.

Taylor I really dont know...I could see Meldrick's defensive shortcomings costing him dearly but I really find it hard to picture how Pac deals with a guy as fast if not faster then him...plus nearly as athletic and busy.

I think he just edges out Tszyu to tell you the truth...I dont think its a sure thing he beats him. Kostya has decent durability, which you need against Manny and he is well accurate. Pac would be in against a guy who can land clean, well timed hits better then Hatton, Diaz and Cotto ever could .
Maybe nearly as well as Marquez can deliver them but in a bigger frame with more power.
I think Tszyu's defensive lapses and stamina issue see him get comprehensively outworked down the stretch but early on and the mid rounds are going to be very interesting.

On paper I sorta agree with how My2sense has been looking at the Pryor fight. Manny's stance, speed and explosiveness is going to catch out the Hawk and probably send him to the canvas at some point.
But I also look at the fact Aaron took some wicked shots against a guy like Arguello...shots I cant see Manny producing.
I lean towards Manny but a lot of unanswered questions about this fight...Neither guy has really faced someone like the other at these weights.

Id pick Hoya to edge it...I think with the right tactics he can outbox Manny in enough rounds to take a 8-4 or 7-5 decision, if this time he has body that can keep up.

[WhataRock]

Why we are on the topic how does Pac fair against Lochee and Cervantes?

[jc]

On talent and H2H he is the very best imo. however he sitna carweer light welter like Tszyu, Pryor, Chavez etc so its hard to put him as the greatest 140lbers.

[bodhi]

Why we are on the topic how does Pac fair against Lochee and Cervantes?

Cervantes with his very good footwork would probably outbox him but Locche may get outworked. But I´m not a specialist on either fighter, so some more input would be appreciated.

[Shake]

I'd pick him to beat Tszyu, Taylor and De La Hoya(slightly unsure). Chavez beats him, sure as can be, and I think Pryor's chin and workrate would possibly excavate durability issues Pac would have in wars with true junior welterweights.

I say excavate, 'cause they sure were hard to see in his match with Cotto. Still, he must have them, imo.

[Mendoza]

Pacquaio vs Mayweather is the biggest legacy fight of this decade. It needs to be made now.

[teeto]

I reckon Pacquiao has a chance against all of them. I'm differing in opinion though and think Tszyu isn't a lock win for Pac. Tszyu was a quality technician but his arsenal admittedly was limited, and the way he opted not to use proper lateral movement then i can see Pacquiao getting the better of it. Tszyu's right hand definitely finds its mark though, make of that what you will.

He wouldn't beat Locche, but would have a better chance against Cervantes imo, just because of the pace of the fight.

[Popkins]

The current version of Manny Pacquiao
(the guy who fought Oscar, Hatton and Cotto weighing between 140 and 144lbs)

Versus

A selection of the best fighters who have ever graced the modern Light-Welterweight Division



1 - Kostya Tszyu
2 - Aaron Pryor
3 - Julio Cesar Chavez
4 - Meldrick Taylor
5 - Oscar De La Hoya


How do you see each fight going? :good

I think Pacquiao beats them all except Chavez. I think he would drop Pryor a couple of times en route to a hard fought points win (and I'm a bit of a Pryor fan), I think he would knock Taylor out mid-late rounds, I think he'd outspeed and outfight Oscar to a close UD, and I think he would either stop Tszyu late or take a relatively comfortable UD, somewhere in the region of 116-112. I see Chavez grinding Pac down to beat him by the same scoreline as Pac beats Tszyu.

[Shake]

Also, I don't see how Nicolino Locche beats him. Manny would win on workrate and handspeed, imo.

[teeto]

Also, I don't see how Nicolino Locche beats him. Manny would win on workrate and handspeed, imo.
I do. Come on, Pacquiao was frustrated by Marquez. The only way i reckon Pacquiao can beat him is if this recent 'improvement' is like the biggest revelation of all time. He's shown me massive improvements but we're asking for a miracle here. Locche is my numero uno for pure defense btw. Pacquiao's one of the greatest fighters of all time i'd say. But i reckon Locche would win on points.

[Shake]

I do. Come on, Pacquiao was frustrated by Marquez. The only way i reckon Pacquiao can beat him is if this recent 'improvement' is like the biggest revelation of all time. He's shown me massive improvements but we're asking for a miracle here. Locche is my numero uno for pure defense btw. Pacquiao's one of the greatest fighters of all time i'd say. But i reckon Locche would win on points.

Locche is my numero uno for defensive skill as well but pure speed and athleticism seem like the dealbreakers here. Manny is a tiny buzzsaw and I think Nicolino would struggle to control him -- and his style is all about control. Manny's speed of hand and foot, coupled with the workrate and willingness to take risks, I am coming up short imagining an UD for Locche. He'd simultaneously school, clown, defend masterfully and lose because Manny outlanded him.

I don't see Locche pressured to the point where he's at any time in danger of being stopped -- I think he gets to the end comfortably.

Meh, just a stream-of-consciousness post here.

[asero]

pac beats them all...

the classic posters here were exposed when they think that a bigger dela hoya would beat pacquiao. They are known to underestimate pacquiao big time

[teeto]

Locche is my numero uno for defensive skill as well but pure speed and athleticism seem like the dealbreakers here. Manny is a tiny buzzsaw and I think Nicolino would struggle to control him -- and his style is all about control. Manny's speed of hand and foot, coupled with the workrate and willingness to take risks, I am coming up short imagining an UD for Locche. He'd simultaneously school, clown, defend masterfully and lose because Manny outlanded him.

I don't see Locche pressured to the point where he's at any time in danger of being stopped -- I think he gets to the end comfortably.

Meh, just a stream-of-consciousness post here.
Yeah i was thinking about it just. The workrate is huge for Manny. I didn't really think Locche was all about controlling pace myself though. Not like a Whittaker say, or Hopkins, who dictate pace with jabs or distance. I always thought Locche just let's guys do what they want but frustrates them and makes them miss regardless.

It's a close call i reckon.

[teeto]

pac beats them all...

the classic posters here were exposed when they think that a bigger dela hoya would beat pacquiao. They are known to underestimate pacquiao big time
How does 'the classic forum' underestimate Pacquiao when a shitload of us here rate him as a great fighter?

What's your game nobby?

[asero]

why would they pick dela hoya to beat pacquiao?

and why most posters here think that pac-hatton fight is 50-50 when pac has all the advantage to demolish hatton.

[Popkins]

why would they pick dela hoya to beat pacquiao?

and why most posters here think that pac-hatton fight is 50-50 when pac has all the advantage to demolish hatton.

You're being silly here. It was perfectly valid to think Oscar would beat Pac before that fight. Oscar had pushed Floyd all the way the previous year, and he was of course the bigger man, a much bigger man. Many staunch Pac fans thought that Oscar would win.

[Shake]

Yeah i was thinking about it just. The workrate is huge for Manny. I didn't really think Locche was all about controlling pace myself though. Not like a Whittaker say, or Hopkins, who dictate pace with jabs or distance. I always thought Locche just let's guys do what they want but frustrates them and makes them miss regardless.

It's a close call i reckon.

Yeah, I just rewatched some Locche footage and you're spot on about the pace.He is so, so good.

This is our suffering and our joy. You always think the last fighter you watched has an edge because they all have so much going for them. I think Manny's handspeed bothers Locche, but I'm not sure he loses.

[teeto]

Yeah, I just rewatched some Locche footage and you're spot on about the pace.He is so, so good.

This is our suffering and our joy. You always think the last fighter you watched has an edge because they all have so much going for them. I think Manny's handspeed bothers Locche, but I'm not sure he loses.

:good

[lefthook31]

You're being silly here. It was perfectly valid to think Oscar would beat Pac before that fight. Oscar had pushed Floyd all the way the previous year, and he was of course the bigger man, a much bigger man. Many staunch Pac fans thought that Oscar would win.
Oscar was also fighting at a more natural weight of 154 pounds not 145. Big difference. I think pac was always considered a threat because of his speed and power, but the #1 underlying question that made him somewhat of an underdog and seemed to make his accomplishments bigger, is the fact that people questioned whether he could handle the "size" of his opponents. He had been knocked out and down by smaller guys, so there was this big question of whether or not he could take a real welterweight punch.
Now, after three successful welterweight fights, that has to be taken out of the equation. Pac is a welterweight now. He has better than average welterweight power, and a welterweight chin with speed to boot, so hes not this little guy thats at some huge strength, size and power deficit.

[Shake]

why would they pick dela hoya to beat pacquiao?

and why most posters here think that pac-hatton fight is 50-50 when pac has all the advantage to demolish hatton.

If being an inaccurate predictor "exposes" a poster, and you distance yourself from that category, may I ask how you have spent the millions you have undoubtedly earned with your correct fight predictions?

[Unforgiven]

Out of Tzsyu, Chavez, Taylor, Pryor and DeLaHoya, I would only pick Chavez with any real confidence to beat him. And even there I acknowledge Pacquiao has a good chance too.
Taylor and Pryor have a good chance against him, but I'd probably favour Pacman.
Tzsyu and DeLaHoya, I dont give much chance.

[teeto]

why would they pick dela hoya to beat pacquiao?

and why most posters here think that pac-hatton fight is 50-50 when pac has all the advantage to demolish hatton.
I've seen people here like Sweet Pea call the Pac-Hatton fight to a tee. Plus i myself called the Cotto-Pac fight. You're off your head.

[Flea Man]

Why so high on him beating Pryor? With Pryor's chin, unflinching offence AND ability to keep it at mid-range if he needs (without the massive reach disparity he had against Arguello I'd doubt he'd get hit as much) I just can't see Pac living with it. There's a difference between a few shots from Cotto and numerous shots from Pryor.

Over 12, maybe Pac. over 15, Pryor all the way IMO

[teeto]

Why so high on him beating Pryor? With Pryor's chin, unflinching offence AND ability to keep it at mid-range if he needs (without the massive reach disparity he had against Arguello I'd doubt he'd get hit as much) I just can't see Pac living with it. There's a difference between a few shots from Cotto and numerous shots from Pryor.

Over 12, maybe Pac. over 15, Pryor all the way IMO
Thank you very much for speaking up on this.

[Popkins]

Why so high on him beating Pryor? With Pryor's chin, unflinching offence AND ability to keep it at mid-range if he needs (without the massive reach disparity he had against Arguello I'd doubt he'd get hit as much) I just can't see Pac living with it. There's a difference between a few shots from Cotto and numerous shots from Pryor.

Over 12, maybe Pac. over 15, Pryor all the way IMO

Why Pryor all the way over 15 mate, has Pacquiao ever shown you anything to suggest his workrate and stamina would wilt if he had to go another three? I haven't. I think he always looks as energetic in round 12 as he does in round 1.

I think people too often think of Pryor as the Pryor of the first Arguello fight, but he didn't always perform like that. Have you seen the Dujuan Johnson fight? Pacquiao's power and angles would score multiple knockdowns of a Pryor in that mode, no doubt in my mind of that.

[PunchOut]

Vs Pryor would be a war that would win the last man standing ... this would be an epic and brutal fight ... could be either way

Vs Tszyu .. very similar to the Pryor fight only that this ending in a KO for Pac in the later RDS .... after get a brutal beating in his way to defeat Tszyu

vs Taylor ... i would love to see how Pac deals with someone who really is faster than him ... anyway i think Pac Power and stamina would be the edge .. Pac Ko 11 after gettin frustrated

Vs Young Prime Hoya
Pac get outboxed by the tallest, and almost fast Young Hoya ... 8-4 UD for Young Hoya

Vs Chavez
Chavez is no Cotto asero ... or hatton, or a weight drained hoya ... Chavez is the only one fighter that i think could be toe to toe with Pac and get the better part .. Chavez Legendary Chin, Legendary Stamina and the most Dangerous Body attack of all time would brutally beat the Pacman in 10 with the early rounds goes for Pac ....

* if Pacs try to "Feel" the power of Chavez like he did against the ropes with Cotto ... he would be a Dead Man

[My2Sense]

Why so high on him beating Pryor? With Pryor's chin, unflinching offence AND ability to keep it at mid-range if he needs (without the massive reach disparity he had against Arguello I'd doubt he'd get hit as much) I just can't see Pac living with it.

Reach wouldn't have anything to do with it. Pryor's defense was wretched against southpaws. Look at him against Kameda just before he fought Arguello, and against Hinton afterward. Pacquiao would have a field day teeing off on that. And while he didn't have the height/reach advantages that Arguello had, his punches were much quicker and sharper than Arguello at that weight and would be coming from more problematic angles.


There's a difference between a few shots from Cotto and numerous shots from Pryor.


But there's also a difference between walking in wide open against Kameda/Hinton and against Pacquiao.

[divac]

The current version of Manny Pacquiao
(the guy who fought Oscar, Hatton and Cotto weighing between 140 and 144lbs)

Versus

A selection of the best fighters who have ever graced the modern Light-Welterweight Division



1 - Kostya Tszyu
2 - Aaron Pryor
3 - Julio Cesar Chavez
4 - Meldrick Taylor
5 - Oscar De La Hoya


How do you see each fight going? :good

Chavez imo in a fight he is winning rather comfortably, stops Pacquiao somewhere between rounds 9-11.
Chavez is the most complete fighter of this crop.
Underrated boxing and defensive skills.
Punches marvelously with either hand, and is an assasin at going to the body, a part of Pacquiao that seems to be his weak point.

Chavez-Great boxing skill
Very accurate
Body assassin (may be the best ever at it)
Granite chin
Unbelievable stamina

Chavez is the only fighter of this crop because of his unbelieveable chin, that could take Pacquiao head on and have it suit his fancy.
While fighters like Tszyu and Taylor would have to fight more diciplined, not Chavez......he could take his pick and beat Pacquiao either or....in a war, or on the backfoot countering Pacquiao with patented right hands down the middle.
Believe me on this one, as far as boxing IQ between Pacquiao and Chavez, its not even close, its Chavez hands down.

Kostya Tzsyu has the jab that Cotto used sucessfully early against Pacquaio, plus he had something that Cotto does'nt.....a jack hammer of a right hand (Tszyu is very good timing to throw that right hand).....and he has a better chin than Cotto's.
I like Tszyu in a matchup vs Pacquiao by late KO.....
He's got the essentials to beat Pacquiao, the jab and the power right.
......and if you've seen Kostya fight, he does'nt always stalk.......he can half step it back and make room to land that big right as his opponent if going forward.
Often times he's timed fighters coming at him and dropped them with his right hand.
I think Kostya may be the only one in that crop that could short circuit Pacquiao with a shot to the chin and be able to KO him by way of short circuiting the brain.


Meldrick Taylor is a fighter that likes to rumble a bit.
.......he's often stereotyped as making the mistake to war with Chavez......but thats not actually what happened.
Taylor was very diciplined throughout that whole fight making sure not to get trapped on the ropes against Chavez.
It was Chavez underrated boxing skill, his timeing ability with being able to land heavy shots inside of Taylor's combination flurries, that wore down Taylor.....

Taylor was always moving to his laterals....and thats something that I dont think Pacquaio would handle the way Chavez did.

This matchup I cant pick with conviction, but if the same Taylor that showed up to fight Chavez showed against Pacquiao.....I think Taylor outboxes Pacquiao through 12 rounds.
The asset the favors Taylor is that he's not only faster, he's much faster than Pacquiao.

I've said it many times in this forum and I said it before DLH got his ass beat by Pacquiao...... if both weighed the same on fightnight, Pacquiao eats up DLH everytime.
A prime for prime matchup at 140 lbs however probably has DLH outweighing Pacquiao by 8 to 10 lbs.
I give DLH a punchers chance to shortcircuit Pacquao in this matchup, but I favor Pacquiao.



I wont give the cheat Aaron Pryor the satisfaction of my analysis.........the cheat without the black bottle gets bloodgeoned by Manny Pacquiao down the stretch.

Alexis Arguello should be in this crop instead of Aaron Pryor........and if I picked Kostya Tszyu to knockout Manny Pacquiao. I pick Arguello to put Pacquiao in dreamland before the late rounds arrive.

Arguello is Erik Morales X5......and unlike Morales, he took his one shot power with him to every weight class he fought in.
With the essential jab, explosive right, compounded with his height, reach and much better boxing skill.
Arguello by brutal KO..........and its Arguello's work to the body that will set up the type of brutal shot that would end it for Pacquiao.
Arguello is just a master of his craft that I just dont see him losing to Pacquiao.