Traditional Martial Arts in MMA

[Drunkenboxer]

Lyoto Machida Black belt in Shotokan Karate
Anderson Silva Black belt in Taekwondo
Georges st Pierre Black belt in Kyokushin Karate
Frank Mir Black belt in American Kempo Karate
Cung Le Black belt in Taekwondo, Sanda Kung Fu champion
Chuck Liddell Black belt in American Kempo Karate

Before you go apeshit, I know every one of the fighters listed above has a black belt in Brazilian Ju Jitsu too (Apart from Liddell who was a state level colleage wrestler). It highlights the fact that BJJ (Or another form of ground-fighting) is an essential part of a complete fighter's skill set. But is it just a coincidence that some of the most wildly successful MMA fighters have a pedigree in traditional Eastern Martial Arts?

There are a lot of people on these forums and others that think the skills taught in such classes are too old, antiquated and irrelevant for practical use in the cage. But the sheer number of world championship belts shared by the above fighters would suggest that it's worthy of discussion. :rasta

[Beebs]

Silva, GSP, and Mir all train with Muay Thai and boxing coaches rather than TKD or Karate, and have for most of their adult life.

Of course there is something to be said for any sport that involves hitting people; timing is timing and you get it from those sports.

There is a reason most fighters graduate from childrens Karate and TKD to Thai and Boxing though.

[196osh]

Kyokushin Karate is used with good effect in many kick boxing compitions, after some boxing training not strange for it to be effective.

Silva is a Muay Thai fighter.

Chuck is a power puncher with great TD defence I don't see many "traditional" aspects to his stand up.

Mir's striking is guff pretty much.

Machida and Le are better examples of "traditional" martial arts in mma.

After all that being said fighters cross train in styles which are effective meaning that just because a guy has a black belt in a style does not mean that he will use it for mma.

[achillesthegreat]

They do have a background in those arts but how much do they employ them. Sure they all love them and employ the odd move but generally I would say they use the standard mma arts like boxing, muay thai, judo, wrestling, bjj etc

[Beebs]

I just want to reiterate that although I generally make fun of them, one area I think that Karate gets right, possibly even more right than Thai/Boxing is distance for MMA.

The distance between karate fighters is more similar to the distance MMA fights take place at than Thai or boxing. The reasoning behind this isn't because Karate has the better distance for actual striking, its just a coincidence basically.

In boxing and Thai you are generally striking from a somewhat closer distance than MMA because that is the most effective range for those types of fighting as it doesn't have a system where one landed strike gives you a win, as in Shotokan (AKA "Point Sparring" Machida is Shodokan by the way, not Kyokushin) you don't have to worry as much about takedowns and all the other MMA specific stuff.

In Karate and even somewhat TKD you stand at a further distance because the effect of getting hit even once is so magnified, either losing or almost losing.

So while the reasoning behind it is out of whack, a good part of Machida style of striking comes from his familiarity with the distance of Shotokan; combine that with his speed and overall ability and you have a guy who is naturally suited to fighting from the slighting larger distance in MMA.

All MMA fighters have to fight at that longer distance a lot of the time anyway, so practicing it in your youth in another sport, even for other reasons, is not a terrible idea.

Of course if, as Cross Trainer says (reasonably, but there is room for disagreement), as MMA evolves we will simply see MMA fighters training MMA so they will be training striking with MMA striking coaches like the future Dellagrotte's and Thompson's from that distance their whole lives for the right reasons rather than the Shotokon reasons.

[achillesthegreat]

I just want to reiterate that although I generally make fun of them, one area I think that Karate gets right, possibly even more right than Thai/Boxing is distance for MMA.

The distance between karate fighters is more similar to the distance MMA fights take place at than Thai or boxing. The reasoning behind this isn't because Karate has the better distance for actual striking, its just a coincidence basically.

In boxing and Thai you are generally striking from a somewhat closer distance than MMA because that is the most effective range for those types of fighting as it doesn't have a system where one landed strike gives you a win, as in Shotokan (AKA "Point Sparring" Machida is Shodokan by the way, not Kyokushin) you don't have to worry as much about takedowns and all the other MMA specific stuff.

In Karate and even somewhat TKD you stand at a further distance because the effect of getting hit even once is so magnified, either losing or almost losing.

So while the reasoning behind it is out of whack, a good part of Machida style of striking comes from his familiarity with the distance of Shotokan; combine that with his speed and overall ability and you have a guy who is naturally suited to fighting from the slighting larger distance in MMA.

All MMA fighters have to fight at that longer distance a lot of the time anyway, so practicing it in your youth in another sport, even for other reasons, is not a terrible idea.

Of course if, as Cross Trainer says (reasonably, but there is room for disagreement), as MMA evolves we will simply see MMA fighters training MMA so they will be training striking with MMA striking coaches like the future Dellagrotte's and Thompson's from that distance their whole lives for the right reasons rather than the Shotokon reasons.

I think it has alot to do with their guard. Muay Thai and Boxing generally use open and closed guard respectively but they are relatively tight in posture. Karate uses a normal hands up guard but with no real intention of blocking with the arms. It's all about striking at range, using the feet and pulling that head back, which establishes and looks to maintain distance.

[Drunkenboxer]

Kyokushin Karate is used with good effect in many kick boxing compitions, after some boxing training not strange for it to be effective.

Silva is a Muay Thai fighter.

Chuck is a power puncher with great TD defence I don't see many "traditional" aspects to his stand up.

Mir's striking is guff pretty much.

Machida and Le are better examples of "traditional" martial arts in mma.

After all that being said fighters cross train in styles which are effective meaning that just because a guy has a black belt in a style does not mean that he will use it for mma.

Agreed! I said something similar on another thread recently, about how Kyokushin was developed recently to be more modern and practical, GSP still employs a lot of Kyokushin techniques in his stand-up, his axe-kick to the body against Mayhem Miller (UFC 52) drew audible "oooh"s from the crowd, and has become noticeably more common in MMA (Not a Muay Thai technique). He also loves to throw spinning thrust kicks around a lot.

Disagree... He absolutely smashed Minotauro, his striking has looked good to me a number of times, also against that bigfoot motherfucker that stomped on his face. In the rematch when Mir scored the KO he had it over that guy in a big way, I remember seeing him throw good high and low combinations (Especially before his lazy ass got gassed). Overall I think Mir is a pretty good striker.

Yeah, I know these guys are all true mixed martial artists. But I honestly think their agility and aptitude for faster kicking has a lot to do with their traditional martial arts, especially when compared to the cumbersome hand/foot combinations of many other fighters... I just got through watching TUF season 8 and noted a number of kicking drills Silva took team Nogueira through, they're the same as I did when I learned TKD as a kid, focused on speed and volume.

[Beebs]

I think it has alot to do with their guard. Muay Thai and Boxing generally use open and closed guard respectively but they are relatively tight in posture. Karate uses a normal hands up guard but with no real intention of blocking with the arms. It's all about striking at range, using the feet and pulling that head back, which establishes and looks to maintain distance.



I've seen a lot of Karate fighters taught to block with their arms, to intercept or deflect; the Japanese wrestler Nick Diaz beat the piss out of being the clearest example.

Machida doesn't do that though, so maybe it was just that one guys style of karate.

[wingchung]

I think it has alot to do with their guard. Muay Thai and Boxing generally use open and closed guard respectively but they are relatively tight in posture. Karate uses a normal hands up guard but with no real intention of blocking with the arms. It's all about striking at range, using the feet and pulling that head back, which establishes and looks to maintain distance.

deflecting punchs is basic for any karate and is the foundation of karate. deflect an attack with your hands and counter back. sheesh. that is common knowledge to any trained in karate.

[wingchung]

I've seen a lot of Karate fighters taught to block with their arms, to intercept or deflect; the Japanese wrestler Nick Diaz beat the piss out of being the clearest example.

Machida doesn't do that though, so maybe it was just that one guys style of karate.

its make you wonder when someone trys to say karate does not involve blocking.

[TKDfighterJoe]

Taekwondo is extremely misunderstood in america and englad. Mostly because of the franchise ATA and the consumerist 'mcdojo' phenomena. along with the intermixing of the much smaller communist ITF version. One of these days I will make a decent thread 'in defense of taekwondo' and try to sort out a lot of the misunderstandings. but in a simpler way I can say that a lot of taekondo is used in MMA.

everytime you see a roundhouse to the body, that is tkd. The vast majority of olympic taekwondo kicking used in a match is roundhouse. probably 70-80%. And we are very good at throwing them. sure muy thai has roundhouses too, but it is extremely taekwondo. The punches are mostly straight punches (reverse punch).

One a few rare occasions I have seen one of GSP's people (forgot the name) KO someone with an attack back-kick (backward turning kick with the bottom of the foot to the mid section, dwi-chagi) to the body. Then he said he did taekwondo when he was younger. Funny, it didnt say taekwondo under the 'styles' thingy.

Ive seen kung lee hit someone (idk if it was a KO) with a decent back-hook kick (hulio-chagi)

I get tired of reading all the people who say 'tkd isnt used in mma so it doesnt work on the street its for kids lol'

1. they usually don't know much anything about taekwondo except for the lessons they took as a kid at some mcdojang doing low-blocks
2. just because it isnt in mma doesnt mean it wouldnt work 'on the street'
3. athletecism alone will win you most fights 'on the street' and taekwondo fighters are conditioned to the extreme. Dont even dream of winning an international competition if you dont train 2x a day for 3 hours at least

anyway I'm ranting, when I get a chance we can all sit down and have a big discussion about all this.


In Karate and even somewhat TKD you stand at a further distance because the effect of getting hit even once is so magnified, either losing or almost losing.true, getting hit is definitely more significant than a boxer taking a punch as far as scoring is concerned. Another reason for the distance is the kicking speed-power of the opponent. Also, in tkd we probably stand further apart than most karate types. Evasion tends to be used more than any stationary blocking concept.

[Drunkenboxer]

Taekwondo is extremely misunderstood in america and englad. Mostly because of the franchise ATA and the consumerist 'mcdojo' phenomena. along with the intermixing of the much smaller communist ITF version. One of these days I will make a decent thread 'in defense of taekwondo' and try to sort out a lot of the misunderstandings. but in a simpler way I can say that a lot of taekondo is used in MMA.

everytime you see a roundhouse to the body, that is tkd. The vast majority of olympic taekwondo kicking used in a match is roundhouse. probably 70-80%. And we are very good at throwing them. sure muy thai has roundhouses too, but it is extremely taekwondo. The punches are mostly straight punches (reverse punch).


I think that's a bit of a stretch. The round kick is a staple of Muay Thai and has been known as Mawashi-geri in Japan for thousands of years. Modern American Kickboxing, rather than being a derivative of Muay Thai (As many think), is a product of the explosion in popularity of Karate in the United States late last century. Pioneers like Benny Urquidez wanted to combine the dynamic kicking of Karate with the no-nonsense hand skills of boxing. The round kick is also the most common leg-weapon in Savate and many Northern Kung Fu styles.

[TKDfighterJoe]

I think that's a bit of a stretch. The round kick is a staple of Muay Thai and has been known as Mawashi-geri in Japan for thousands of years. Modern American Kickboxing, rather than being a derivative of Muay Thai (As many think), is a product of the explosion in popularity of Karate in the United States late last century. Pioneers like Benny Urquidez wanted to combine the dynamic kicking of Karate with the no-nonsense hand skills of boxing. The round kick is also the most common leg-weapon in Savate and many Northern Kung Fu styles.and taekwondo.

it is used a lot it is obviously very effective.

And we use it all the time.

therefore, taekwondo is used a lot in mma

[achillesthegreat]

Beebs and Wing Chun: It may be taught but I can't remember having seen it, whether it's Machida or some random on youtube.

[Beebs]

everytime you see a roundhouse to the body, that is tkd.


2. just because it isnt in mma doesnt mean it wouldnt work 'on the street'
3. athletecism alone will win you most fights 'on the street' and taekwondo fighters are conditioned to the extreme. Dont even dream of winning an international competition if you dont train 2x a day for 3 hours at least


The first statement might be the wrongest thing in the history of things being wrong. Probably the most common kick thrown in Muay Thai is a roundhouse to the body, it is one of the key elements of the sport. Given that Muay Thai is older than TKD, they are seperated by a large distance, and most Thai fighters never see TKD, you simply have an absolutely indefensible postion.

Just look at all these "TKD" roundhouses to the body.:lol:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

2. But it is the best simulation possible

3. Same goes for every sport at a world class level. You think TKD fighters train harder than any other world class athletes?

[wingchung]

The first statement might be the wrongest thing in the history of things being wrong. Probably the most common kick thrown in Muay Thai is a roundhouse to the body, it is one of the key elements of the sport. Given that Muay Thai is older than TKD, they are seperated by a large distance, and most Thai fighters never see TKD, you simply have an absolutely indefensible postion.

Just look at all these "TKD" roundhouses to the body.:lol:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

2. But it is the best simulation possible

3. Same goes for every sport at a world class level. You think TKD fighters train harder than any other world class athletes?

a roundhouse kick is a basic karate kick also.

[wingchung]

Beebs and Wing Chun: It may be taught but I can't remember having seen it, whether it's Machida or some random on youtube.

go to any karate school watch and learn big guy.

[Drunkenboxer]

and taekwondo.

it is used a lot it is obviously very effective.

And we use it all the time.

therefore, taekwondo is used a lot in mma

:lol: Okay, I get your angle. You and I are fundamentally in agreement on certain things. It is however noteworthy that the round kick of Taekwondo is slightly different from the round kicks of Kyokushin and Muay Thai as your Taekwondo round kick uses the instep as it's weapon whereas a Kyokushin or Muay Thai round kick uses the lower part of the shin.

[TKDfighterJoe]

:lol: Okay, I get your angle. You and I are fundamentally in agreement on certain things. It is however noteworthy that the round kick of Taekwondo is slightly different from the round kicks of Kyokushin and Muay Thai as your Taekwondo round kick uses the instep as it's weapon whereas a Kyokushin or Muay Thai round kick uses the lower part of the shin.yes that is a notable difference. muy thai and kyokushin are happy to his the opponents him, knee, shin, whatever.

In tkd the focus is on the solarplexus. Because we hit a soft target, then what we hit with tends to be the instep because it gives us more range, and the end of the whip is the part moving the fastest, and thus hits the hardest.

but to clarify im not saying all body & head roundhouses are only taekwondo. But that taekwondo technique (we are extremely proficient at those techniques) are highly effective, and used in mma.

[achillesthegreat]

go to any karate school watch and learn big guy.

it doesn't matter if it's taught. i want to see it practiced or the ideologies being taught are forming a particular style.

Generally, I do not think karate arm block, they look to establish distance as an overwhelming preference.

[cross_trainer]

it doesn't matter if it's taught. i want to see it practiced or the ideologies being taught are forming a particular style.

Generally, I do not think karate arm block, they look to establish distance as an overwhelming preference.

This is more or less correct. Shotokan Karate is schizophrenic. They're wedded to katas and prearranged one-step sparring drills that still use the "classical" blocks, but in actual competition they bounce on their toes and rely on distance. Kinda like the difference between Classical Arabic and colloquial Arabic, oddly enough (write in one, speak in another).

Obviously a broad generalization, but it has a grain of truth.

[TKDfighterJoe]

This is more or less correct. Shotokan Karate is schizophrenic. They're wedded to katas and prearranged one-step sparring drills that still use the "classical" blocks, but in actual competition they bounce on their toes and rely on distance. Kinda like the difference between Classical Arabic and colloquial Arabic, oddly enough (write in one, speak in another).

Obviously a broad generalization, but it has a grain of truth.This seems correct. Taekwondo came from shotokan karate and our poomsae are based on their katas. Also, we have many 'one-step sparring' types. IMO the old way of doing things before full contact competition was regulated properly. Perhaps provides some proficiency in self defense, good for focus and exercise, but defiantly below bagwork, sparring drills, and actual sparring in combative value.

[Beebs]

it doesn't matter if it's taught. i want to see it practiced or the ideologies being taught are forming a particular style.

Generally, I do not think karate arm block, they look to establish distance as an overwhelming preference.

That would sort of explain Nick Diaz vs Koji Oishi fight; his camp tried to bring in a kata type defense because he probably never really actual karate in a competitive sense. I want to be fair to Oishi though, he is a talented fighter with a wrestling base. He was a Pancrase guy, held wins over Chris Lytle and Kitaoka. He obviously knew how to fight.

He also had beat Nate Diaz; obviosly Lytle, Kitaoka; and Nick where all not the fighters they are now, but they were still very good.

Why he chose that night to fight that weight is a mystery, but it proved that arm blocking kata-style will get you beat mercilesly by an awkward boxer.

[TKDfighterJoe]

The first statement might be the wrongest thing in the history of things being wrong. Probably the most common kick thrown in Muay Thai is a roundhouse to the body,guess which kick is most commonly thrown in Taekwondo?


it is one of the key elements of the sport. Given that Muay Thai is older than TKD, they are seperated by a large distance, and most Thai fighters never see TKD, you simply have an absolutely indefensible postion.muy thai being older than TKD would be a huge and complex debate. Taekwondo is considered to be over 2000 years old. But that depends on what you still consider 'tkd'.

But yes, modern taekwondo 'shi-hap' kyorugi (olympic tkd) is about 40 years old or so.

Just look at all these "TKD" roundhouses to the body.:lol:
[Only registered and activated users can see links] I'm saying is that roundhouses are a Taekwondo technique. Not that roundhouses are only a Taekwondo technique.

also, there are many variations of roundhouse kicks in both sports. Many muy thai roundhouse kicks are not used in taekwondo, and visa versa. So if you are implying that TKD got it's fighting style from muy thai, no.

2. But it is the best simulation possibleno its not. Bumfights was more realistic.

3. Same goes for every sport at a world class level. You think TKD fighters train harder than any other world class athletes?I think they train as hard. I think korean taekwondo olympians (and a few select foreigners) train as hard or harder for a longer and more consistent period of time than most any sport in the world. (example, floyd mayweather trains from childhood up but many boxers were not so consistent, whereas in korea the top 50 Taekwondo fighters have/will most likely be undergoing continuous cyclical training from age 5 to age 27 or so.)

[Beebs]

You said that roundhouses are "all TKD" obviously you see why people thought you were saying TKD was the only roundhouse, you apparantly were not saying that, but you get why people though you did right?

Well bumfights is Vale Tudo more or less, just less skilled, so again Vale Tudo is the closest simulation we have.

You are delusional if you think that wrestlers, Judokas, weightlifters, swimmers, hell, every fuching world class athlete don't train as hard or harder.

In fact, TKD has a lower participation pool than many sports, so it's an easy argument to make that it takes less hard work in TKD to be the best because you are taking on less people than say wrestlers or certainly runners.

I'm not insulting TKD, especially as a sport on it's own, but the moment you pretend they are harder working than boxers or wrestlers (I said harder, not equal) that is major issue.

[TKDfighterJoe]

You said that roundhouses are "all TKD" obviously you see why people thought you were saying TKD was the only roundhouse, you apparantly were not saying that, but you get why people though you did right?yeah, totally. And Im not angry at anyone who took it that way, it is understandable.


Well bumfights is Vale Tudo more or less, just less skilled, so again Vale Tudo is the closest simulation we have.vale tudo =/=UFC

but yeah vale tudo has higher skilkl than bumfights from what I have seen. Are there any rules at all out of curiosity?

You are delusional if you think that wrestlers, Judokas, weightlifters, swimmers, hell, every fuching world class athlete don't train as hard or harder.I trained at the US olympic training center before, I saw swimmers in the building across the way, judokas on the other side of the gym, weightlifters in the cafeteria.

And yes, I would be delusional to think so, the human body can only take so much. All olympic sports push it to the max. I do however, know that many elite level Taekwondo fighters have a zen-like consistency in their training regimine


In fact, TKD has a lower participation pool than many sports, so it's an easy argument to make that it takes less hard work in TKD to be the best because you are taking on less people than say wrestlers or certainly runners.it depends on how you look at it. Taekwondo is the largest martial art in the world. Arguably the largest sport in the world. (FYI if you did track in gym class you are counted as a track athlete, whereas TKD practitioners counted are actually TKD practitioners).

In america 2-a-week classes @ 45 mins are commonplace because of our consumerist society. Kyorugi participation levels in america are very low compared to all the people that take taekwondo casually. Incidentally, children in korea function in a similar manner. But most other countries (Iran for example kicks ass in TKD because they all fight) focus kyorugi much more. Korea focuses everything. I can tell you this, if you do not train multiple times a day consistently for a long time, you will not even have a shot at winning a US national medal.

Taejin son, the 2008 korean olympic gold medalist fought his NEXT TOURNAMENT in korea and lost his first match. The next tournament he got KO'd in the final. Americans run around thinking he is washed up but koreans are trying to explain that if you are #1 in tkd in korea, it is only for a millisecond because there are hundreds of people who could have beat you.

Im not trying to say you are being ignorant, but I am saying that Your view of international level taekwondo competition is probably somewhat limited, especially considering most americans exposure to taekwondo is some ATA school.

I'm not insulting TKD, especially as a sport on it's own, but the moment you pretend they are harder working than boxers or wrestlers (I said harder, not equal) that is major issue.Thank you very much for being respectful. I cannot say harder. I feel long term consistency in the korean elite level is more common.

but as athletes, it is a case by case basis. All work to the point of complete exhaustion.

I am actually surprised that you knew the intensity of TKD training, some people think you can go to lessons a few times a week and win an olympic gold or some shit.

[Beebs]

Vale tudo is more a lose term that covers fights with no to almost no rules, so it varies.

I didn't neccesarily mean martial art, plus boxing and wrestling are usually not counted as "martial arts" but either way, Im just saying in order to be the best at anything you need insane hard work, no matter the activity.

Assuming general levels of natural gifts within a normal range; the hardest working backgammon player will be the best, or at least the best will be one of the hardest working, same for swimming, same for soccer, same for...well you get it.

East-Asia countries tend to have ritualistic and almost humiliation aspects to their hard work, but I don't take that as harder, just cultural; but as with all sports, the inventors rarely stay on top permanantly, and Iran and others are now doing well in world TKD with different approaches

By the way, what are some if he differences in styles with say Korea vs Iran? In Judo for example the Slavic countries tend to be very grinding, they use a lot of non-Ippon throws and focus more than most on ground work, based on their experience with wrestling and sambo; Japan tends to be more upright and "pure" (in their eyes) based more on less overall takedowns but higher scoring throws and less ground work.

[TKDfighterJoe]

Vale tudo is more a lose term that covers fights with no to almost no rules, so it varies.sounds like it did when it was first described to me.

I didn't neccesarily mean martial art, plus boxing and wrestling are usually not counted as "martial arts" but either way, Im just saying in order to be the best at anything you need insane hard work, no matter the activity.I agree people dont tend to call boxing wrestling or even competitive shooting a 'martial art' for that reason.

I don't like the term martial art at all, it is a complete misnomer. The 'do' in Ju-do, Karate-do, Ken-do, Aki-do, Taekwon-do, kyun-do, etc... does not mean art at all. When people read the actual translation of the hanja/kanji they usually realize that boxing is just as much of a martial practice than karate.

East-Asia countries tend to have ritualistic and almost humiliation aspects to their hard work, but I don't take that as harder, just cultural; but as with all sports, the inventors rarely stay on top permanantly, and Iran and others are now doing well in world TKD with different approachesYes, Recently in Korea I was allowed to watch a young-inn university team Taekwondo pracitce for their A & some B team members. It was unbelievable. We had some of the US national team there with us, and all but 2 of them were afraid to even go out there and workout with them. The coach had a stick he was wacking people with when people werent working hard enough.

but even though it sounds like something out of a movie, it wont physically make you be able to handle more work than anything. Just ensures you dont slack.


By the way, what are some if he differences in styles with say Korea vs Iran? In Judo for example the Slavic countries tend to be very grinding, they use a lot of non-Ippon throws and focus more than most on ground work, based on their experience with wrestling and sambo; Japan tends to be more upright and "pure" (in their eyes) based more on less overall takedowns but higher scoring throws and less ground work.Interesting how their sambo influences their judo.

Iranians put a lot of pressure on their kids to be tough. They go out there and FIGHT. Kinda like the same rep mexican boxers have. If they are loosing in the last 30 seconds, they dont care, they will go apeshit and just kick nonstop until something hits. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt.

Korean are intense, yet when they need points badly they remain technically sound in their actions which is hard to do. Also, they all fight pretty much the same. Some specialize a bit in a different kick than another, but the way they move and mix it up tends to be universal among koreans. It is because they intermix so much in competition.

Americans are all over the place. We have had people fight like Iranians, koreans, and all kinds of stuff. A major flaw, IMO, is a rule that (along with a ton of hard work) led steven lopez (USA) to win 5 world championships, 2 olympic golds, and an olympic broze. He wins most of his fights in OT, and is the 'floyd mayweather' of tkd. He is slick. Many times referees are lax on fighters lifting their lead leg to defend against body shots with their shin (as is done in muy thai). I know it is a practical defense that is very simple and easy to use, but there is a major problem with it.

It becomes a competition of 'lets see who is taller'. Steven is like 6'6 and he could cut down well in weight. also, he has very long legs, high hipline. It becomes very difficult for shorter people to hit anything.

That is one flaw that has been in and out of tkd for a bit, but there are some others leading to the 'slick' fighter winning.

Honestly I would like to hear similarly how the rules effect judo and jujitsu competitions.

[Beebs]

First thing that comes to mind is that Judo Rules encourage "turtling" or going to your knees and essentially giving up your back, so as not to be held down for a pin, which can win a match.

First thing that comes to mind for BJJ/No-gi is that it encourages cowardice standing; rather than risk losing points to a takedown, one competitor will usually just sit down. Even when doing this results in negative points, it still isn't as much as a takedown for the other guy. The butt flopper's, poor, argument is that he is simply playing to his advantage, and that the other guy is just as afraid of jumping into his guard as he is of being taken down. Now, that might sort of make sense in that in some abstract sense they are both either afraid/playing to their advantage by looking for a takedown or buttflopping; and in sport BJJ/sub-grappling there is nearly no disadvantage to being on bottom

In reality though, both sports should be better account for what would happen in a real fight; I say this not because I consider MMA then end all be all, but because the nature of these sports was originally to find a way of effectively fighting with grappling techniques or however you want to phrase it. The sports should not allow or especially reward bad habbits that go against the nature of their sport.

I don't know exactly what Judo can do to prevent turtling without drastically changing the rules; and I don't want to go that far.

I do know exactly what BJJ/No-Gi should do; any time you go from a standing position to a position on your back or your ass, you have been taken down and your opponent is rewarded the full points for it. I don't care if you pull him down with you and have full control of him, I don't care if you fucking trip, I don't care if he stands there and looks at you in disgust from a distance the rest of the match, he should get takedown points. If you buttflop and buttscoot around the mat trying to drag him down and fail, you lose the match, if you buttflop, stand up, and buttflop again, thats 2 takedowns.