Standing toe to toe with George Foreman and trading blows .....

[Unforgiven]

...... is there any heavyweight in history you would expect to prevail ?

[PowerPuncher]

Well Lyle nearly did so its not as impossible as people think. ALi arguably went toe-toe and traded and won

People who dont box also dont realise, going toe-toe doesnt mean hand speed/defense become irrelevant. If you get your shots off first the other man cant get his off, and if you hurt him and back him up he cant punch very hard on his back foot. For that reason Tyson/Lewis might well do a number on him

[mcvey]

Well Lyle nearly did so its not as impossible as people think. ALi arguably went toe-toe and traded and won

People who dont box also dont realise, going toe-toe doesnt mean hand speed/defense become irrelevant. If you get your shots off first the other man cant get his off, and if you hurt him and back him up he cant punch very hard on his back foot. For that reason Tyson/Lewis might well do a number on him
Liston too, maybe.

[Unforgiven]

Well Lyle nearly did so its not as impossible as people think. ALi arguably went toe-toe and traded and won

People who dont box also dont realise, going toe-toe doesnt mean hand speed/defense become irrelevant. If you get your shots off first the other man cant get his off, and if you hurt him and back him up he cant punch very hard on his back foot. For that reason Tyson/Lewis might well do a number on him

I phrased it "going toe to toe .......... and trading blows" meaning they take a fair few of his shots back and put themselves in a fairly static position where raw strength is a factor too.
Most of the greats did this at times, including Lennox and Tyson.

Interestingly, despite his earned reputation for being cautious and even "dull", Lewis is one of the "worst culprits" when it comes to acts of "foolish bravado" when he's just been tagged. Against Tucker, Briggs AND Tua he drops his hands after being tagged by a heavy shot, in a show of defiance and psychology. It worked, or at least he got away with it.

Yes, Ron Lyle nearly prevailed in a pier-six brawl with Foreman. "Nearly" being the most important word there. I daresay Lyle would have won the world title against some of the greats had they played into his hands and brawled with him, but ironically against Foreman it was Lyle's mistake to be drawn into a brawl.

Ali held a lot when he fought Foreman.

[Bokaj]

...... is there any heavyweight in history you would expect to prevail ?

This is how would expect Bowe to beat him.

[Unforgiven]

This is how would expect Bowe to beat him.

:huh

You think Bowe beats him ?

[PetethePrince]

:huh

You think Bowe beats him ?

That's absurd.

[Bokaj]

:huh

You think Bowe beats him ?

Yeah. Bowe was technically much more accomplished than Foreman on mid-range and especially close range. His chin was about equal and his power wasn't much lesser. And, if it would be a factor, his stamina was pretty far superior. Defensively they were both crap.

[clark]

Not many. A well placed and timed shot could hurt anyone.
That was evidenced by the Lyle to the temple shot on George.
George, however, would probably prevail by just overpowering
his opponent.

[Unforgiven]

Yeah. Bowe was technically much more accomplished than Foreman on mid-range and especially close range. His chin was about equal and his power wasn't much lesser. And, if it would be a factor, his stamina was pretty far superior. Defensively they were both crap.

I dont think he had the brute strength and heavy hands of Foreman though.
Brave as they come, was Bowe. But I dont think he'd be able to outslug Foreman.

[clark]

I think Bowe would have been KO'd by George.

[Unforgiven]

Judging from the fact that Holyfield could stand his ground for round after round against Bowe before he wilted, yet wouldn't risk more than 15 or 20 seconds of unloading a heavy barrage against Foreman without some disciplined lateral movement, suggests Foreman's raw strength and heavy-handedness were in another league to Bowe's.

[Bokaj]

Judging from the fact that Holyfield could stand his ground for round after round against Bowe before he wilted, yet wouldn't risk more than 15 or 20 seconds of unloading a heavy barrage against Foreman without some disciplined lateral movement, suggests Foreman's raw strength and heavy-handedness were in another league to Bowe's.

But on the other hand, Holyfield got beat up when using that reckless tactic against Bowe.

[Bokaj]

I dont think he had the brute strength and heavy hands of Foreman though.
Brave as they come, was Bowe. But I dont think he'd be able to outslug Foreman.

Depends on what you puy in "outslug". I'm referring to staying in the pocket, not throwing all caution to the wind. I just see Bowe's superior precision making the difference. If Lyle came within an inch, I don't see why Bowe couldn't succeed even against a better version of Foreman.

[lefthook89]

i say liston and shavers could, shavers punching power was equal to foremans IMO. i dont think he had the better chin though.

[PetethePrince]

I dont think he had the brute strength and heavy hands of Foreman though.
Brave as they come, was Bowe. But I dont think he'd be able to outslug Foreman.

Bowe feasted upon smaller men and non-punchers (Holy). Due to his open and porous defense, Lewis would be terrible for him, and so would Foreman especially if he was going to brawl and go toe to toe. What have been disaster.

[PetethePrince]

i say liston and shavers could, shavers punching power was equal to foremans IMO. i dont think he had the better chin though.


Yes, Shavers doesn't go a round with Quarry but can go toe to toe with Foreman. You're nuts.

[Bokaj]

i say liston and shavers could, shavers punching power was equal to foremans IMO. i dont think he had the better chin though.

Liston, but not Shavers. Shavers was outslugged by Lyle, who in term was outslugged by... yeah, you guess it. Shavers had sick power but lacked in technique and chin.

The fact that even Quarry went toe-to-toe with Shavers and won, shows that too much onus is put on power. Technique and a cool head is just as important, as is of course chin. That's the reason I can see Bowe beating Foreman, just as Quarry beat Shavers. Foreman's chin and resiliance would make sure it wouldn't be a 1 rd KO, and with his power he has of course always the chance of putting Bowe to sleep, but in the end I think Bowe's superior skill would make the difference more times than not.

[bigG]

in all of my fantasy match ups, big daddy and foreman hadnt ever cropped up...and it would be a fascinating brawl....with young george anyhow..and, yup..id give bowe a chance..he was a big guy with big power and better in fighting ability than gorge..if he could withstand georges brutal raw, uncultured clubbing i could see him doing an ali and stopping an exhausted foreman late...really...well, one time out of four or so!!!...old foreman i think is a worse match up for bowe....more defensively minded, bigger, heavier but just as heavy handed..old george would go in with the destructive urge of the young version and the roles may be reversed with an old geezer maybe stopping a tiring bowe in the late rounds..well, one time out of four ...haha!!!!!

[lefthook89]

Yes, Shavers doesn't go a round with Quarry but can go toe to toe with Foreman. You're nuts.

dude chill out, its hard to think of many heavyweights that can trade with foreman, shavers comes to mind because i think his power is equal to foremans. not saying he would win of course, its pure speculation.

[round15]

Well Lyle nearly did so its not as impossible as people think. ALi arguably went toe-toe and traded and won

People who dont box also dont realise, going toe-toe doesnt mean hand speed/defense become irrelevant. If you get your shots off first the other man cant get his off, and if you hurt him and back him up he cant punch very hard on his back foot. For that reason Tyson/Lewis might well do a number on him

Uh, Ali didn't go toe-to-toe with George.

He'd get his butt knocked out if he did. He covered up, leaned on the ropes and let Foreman blast away at his arms and shoulders. There were moments in the fight where Ali traded shots with George, but he NEVER stood toe-to-toe. Anyhow Foreman lands the same clean uppercut shot like he did against Frazier or a straight right like he did against Norton, Ali likely wouldn't be standing, but I wouldn't bet on him quitting.

Nobody goes toe-to-toe with George, unless the speed factor dominates the exchanges. Young George was quicker than most give him credit for and I'd say the only other heayweight that could stand and trade with George is maybe Liston.

[round15]

dude chill out, its hard to think of many heavyweights that can trade with foreman, shavers comes to mind because i think his power is equal to foremans. not saying he would win of course, its pure speculation.

Shavers' right hand is slightly more powerful than George's but Foreman's left hand shots are much stronger than Shavers' left hand shots.

Shavers could trade with Foreman but unless he fights at a smart pace, with deliberate shots, he'll lose a punch for punch battle against George. I'd predict a lot of knockdowns, but Shavers didn't pay attention to conditioning until later in his career. Same goes with Foreman, because he never had the vast quantity of stamina usually attributed to Marciano and Frazier.

[Longhhorn71]

But on the other hand, Holyfield got beat up when using that reckless tactic against Bowe.

I remember Holyfield heading to the deck from that heavy hitter James "Lightsout" Toney.

[PetethePrince]

dude chill out, its hard to think of many heavyweights that can trade with foreman, shavers comes to mind because i think his power is equal to foremans. not saying he would win of course, its pure speculation.

It's terrible speculation.

[teeto]

Bowe-Foreman would be a classic, a fight that the armchair fans would absolutely love. They'd be turned into hardcore fans

[bigG]

I remember Holyfield heading to the deck from that heavy hitter James "Lightsout" Toney.
holy was not he same fighter by then..he took helacious blows from..well, just about everyone he fought up till toney..just got old all of a sudden...

[mattdonnellon]

Shavers lost a lot of slugfests, he had no defense, no stamina, poor chin. See Williams, Clarke, Stander fights-even the Ellis one. He is one guy who is not beating George. Bowe might do it-he had more speed which is a great asset when going toe-to toe.

[Minotauro]

Guys like Tyson or Louis would stand in the pocket and constantly beat Foreman to the punch while being in range. Their speed and combination could rip him up due to his poor defence. Louis stood toe to toe with Max Baer and had huge success beating him to the punch and countering him from close range, using Max's aggression against him he could do the same against George.

[Genesis]

Bowe could never KO George. He would never KO 40+ George.

Bowe was rocked and dropped by holyfield in fight 3 when Evander just went for broke after looked shot to pieces the round before. Imagine if Foreman landed that left hook and not Evander.

Even Herbie Hide hurt Bowe.

[janitor]

A fair few fighters could have traded with Foreman and not all are the usual suspects.

[bigG]

tua....maybe the much hyped nutjob ibeabuchi oo....

[janitor]

There is a Ron Lyle in every era and two in some.

[bigG]

vitali...or lewis....????..bigger, stronger..and vitali at least has a helluva chin...

[AnthonyJ74]

in all of my fantasy match ups, big daddy and foreman hadnt ever cropped up...and it would be a fascinating brawl....with young george anyhow..and, yup..id give bowe a chance..he was a big guy with big power and better in fighting ability than gorge..if he could withstand georges brutal raw, uncultured clubbing i could see him doing an ali and stopping an exhausted foreman late...really...well, one time out of four or so!!!...old foreman i think is a worse match up for bowe....more defensively minded, bigger, heavier but just as heavy handed..old george would go in with the destructive urge of the young version and the roles may be reversed with an old geezer maybe stopping a tiring bowe in the late rounds..well, one time out of four ...haha!!!!!

Old George was way too slow and immobile to beat a prime Riddick Bowe. I doubt Foreman's artillery would have much of an effect on Big Daddy. Foreman would land the occasional bomb, but he couldn't hit Bowe with combinations. And Bowe wasn't Moorer in the chin department. Bowe would outwork him or quite possibly stop him late.

[AnthonyJ74]

Bowe could never KO George. He would never KO 40+ George.

Bowe was rocked and dropped by holyfield in fight 3 when Evander just went for broke after looked shot to pieces the round before. Imagine if Foreman landed that left hook and not Evander.

Even Herbie Hide hurt Bowe.

Foreman was too slow to land a hook like Evander did. Foreman's slowness negated a lot of his punching power.

[Bokaj]

Bowe could never KO George. He would never KO 40+ George.

Bowe was rocked and dropped by holyfield in fight 3 when Evander just went for broke after looked shot to pieces the round before. Imagine if Foreman landed that left hook and not Evander.

Even Herbie Hide hurt Bowe.

As with most things these works two ways. I could as well mention Lyle, Ali and Young. And: "remember that right from Holyfield that had Big George out on his feet, imagine if it was Bowe landing that right."

[young griffo]

Bowe was overrated as hell when he fought and it seems he still is now.

Q-What do Lennox Lewis,Mike Tyson,Oliver McCall,Ray Mercer,Tommy Morrison,David Tua,Frank Bruno and Michael Moorer have in common?

A-All were contempories of Bowe,all could punch and Bowe fought not a single one of them.

It can't just be a coincidence that Bowe missed fights with these punchers and the first time he faces a decent puncher in Golota he gets ruined imo.

Yet some reckon he could prevail against possibly the strongest,most powerful fighter in Heavyweight history???

Nuh,no way.

[Bokaj]

Yet some reckon he could prevail against possibly the strongest,most powerful fighter in Heavyweight history???

Nuh,no way.

Almost frustrating that people persists with this simple analysis. Shavers was arguably even a harder puncher than Foreman, yet he was outslugged by both Quarry and Lyle. Power is good and all, but without precision it loses a lot of it's effect. Baer was probably a bigger puncher than Louis in pure power, and he had a rock solid chin. He was also bigger and stronger than Louis, but just look what happens when they go toe-to-toe. Louis superior sharpness wins the day.

And while it's true that Bowe met conspicuosly few big punchers, Foreman only met one puncher his own size during his first career and was nearly KO'd.

If I was Bowe's manager I'd would also keep him clear from punchers. He just shipped too many punches. There would have been too many brawls and even if he would have come out standing in most of them, his career would probably have been even shorter. You didn't have to go looking for Bowe, and that's always a dangerous proposition when facing many big punchers. But for one night, I'd give Bowe good odds against most guys that were willing to stay in the pocket with him.

[frankenfrank]

tua would have thrashed him also.
tyson would have beaten him bad too.
arreola would have matched him well.
mccall would withstand everything he gives and will beat him back.
and ask foreman about tucker and some more.
and what did holyfield did ?
and then some more.

[Quitali Bitchko]

tua would have thrashed him also.
tyson would have beaten him bad too.
arreola would have matched him well.
mccall would withstand everything he gives and will beat him back.
and ask foreman about tucker and some more.
and what did holyfield did ?
and then some more.

arreola?!?!?! :lol::rofl:nut:nono:patsch

Foreman would trash Tua. McCall? :nut

[Bummy Davis]

Toe to Toe. punch for punch or fighting on the inside of George reach on his chest with the capabilty to punch hard at the range. Lyle was strong but not really a puncher in the elite bracket, yet he came very close to stopping Big George, in fact If they stopped the fight in Lyles favor at a few points in the fight I don't think anyone can argue. George avoided a lot of the guys that may have been able to get inside and hit with a bit more authority than Lyle. Quarry for one and mabey Bonavena, He also never fought Shavers. I think a good acurate puncher could have taken George out.

[Bummy Davis]

Bowe was overrated as hell when he fought and it seems he still is now.

Q-What do Lennox Lewis,Mike Tyson,Oliver McCall,Ray Mercer,Tommy Morrison,David Tua,Frank Bruno and Michael Moorer have in common?

A-All were contempories of Bowe,all could punch and Bowe fought not a single one of them.

It can't just be a coincidence that Bowe missed fights with these punchers and the first time he faces a decent puncher in Golota he gets ruined imo.

Yet some reckon he could prevail against possibly the strongest,most powerful fighter in Heavyweight history???

Nuh,no way.


I agree, Bowe fought Holyfield that is really all and Golota beat him badly...I think Bowe is highly overated.

[AnthonyJ74]

Savarese stood toe-to-toe with Foreman, albeit an old Foreman. But it was interesting how after absorbing Ol' George's blows and never wavering, Savarese was knocked cold in his next fight with David Izon.

[groove]

ron lyle was facing a rusty foreman not the super self-confident undefeated version that frazier and norton faced.

[JimmyShimmy]

I reckon Dempsey would have a great stab at it, moving and being his resourceful self.

[lefthook89]

tua would have thrashed him also.
tyson would have beaten him bad too.
arreola would have matched him well.
mccall would withstand everything he gives and will beat him back.
and ask foreman about tucker and some more.
and what did holyfield did ?
and then some more.

stopped reading after that, words fail me.

[Titan1]

Prime Foreman, No.
76-77 Foreman, Tyson, Jerry Quarry, Sonny Liston, maybe Mac Foster.

[crippet]

Liston, but not Shavers. Shavers was outslugged by Lyle, who in term was outslugged by... yeah, you guess it. Shavers had sick power but lacked in technique and chin.

The fact that even Quarry went toe-to-toe with Shavers and won, shows that too much onus is put on power. Technique and a cool head is just as important, as is of course chin. That's the reason I can see Bowe beating Foreman, just as Quarry beat Shavers. Foreman's chin and resiliance would make sure it wouldn't be a 1 rd KO, and with his power he has of course always the chance of putting Bowe to sleep, but in the end I think Bowe's superior skill would make the difference more times than not.

You pick Bowe to win because you judge him from 1 fight and select weakness's from Foremans career which suit your argument.

Foreman [Frazier 1 Version] KO Bowe[Holy 1 version]

Foreman [Lyle Version] KO Bowe[Golota Version]

[D.T]

Tyson in 1988 would be able to brawl with, and beat, the 70s version of Foreman.
Liston has a chance.
Holyfield has a chance.
Dempsey has a chance.

[bodhi]

Max Baer is the first one coming to my mind. There is not much between them in terms of power, chin, size and strength but Baer had the superior stamina. What a fight this would be.

James Jeffries could simply outlast him too. Getting beaten down early on but surviving and coming on strong late and TKO George. Depends on the rules so because Jeffries will have to take some terrible punishment.

[apollack]

...... is there any heavyweight in history you would expect to prevail ?

Not recommended. No, I'm not so sure anyone would prevail swapping blows with him. Maybe Tyson because he was faster and shorter with his blows, but who knows.

[Foreman Hook]

Prime Foreman is pretty much Invincible in a SlugFest IMO.

If any heavy has a chance winning by standing trading Huge-Haymakers with Foreman, it has to be Only Lennox Lewis - BUT even then he only has 30% chance of winning. Even teh most Iron-cheens would get smashed from takin' Foreman-Haymakers for a few Roundz.

[Son of Gaul]

...... is there any heavyweight in history you would expect to prevail ?

Pretty short list as only a handful of HWs in history would be willing AND physically able to take that kind of punishment yet still game enough to fire back for an entire fight. Here goes...


Tyson

Tua

Mercer

Toney

[Foreman Hook]

Pretty short list as only a handful of HWs in history would be willing AND physically able to take that kind of punishment yet still game enough to fire back for an entire fight. Here goes...


Tyson

Tua

Mercer

Toney

Tyson would get KTFO in 2 Roundz like prime Frazier did - maybe even 1 round as he wont get-up.

Tua And Mercer had v.good cheens so they might has 5 or 6 roundz trading haymakers - BUT then they will be KTFO like teh rest.

Toney?? Is that some kind of B$ joke??

[Bummy Davis]

a good inside fighter can get inside George longer bombs and land..I saw this with 5"7 Dwight Quawi and I saw a slow Ron Lyle beat him to the punch with strait-er punches

...Foreman did not fight too many elite punchers. I think George had a solid chin but was badly hurt by Lyle,who was a good not great puncher...Frazier went in strait ahead in a bob and weave and in that style he could be hit by uppercuts and overcuts.

Marciano got inside and flurried and he would have to get past Georges range but Rocky made his lack of height an advantage and he would lean back low and spring up..

Dempsey got around your range and punched quickly in angles...Joe Louis countered Quickly and an open target would be a quick kill for him.

I think the best indicator we have is the Lyle fight and based off that Foreman looks beatable despite his champions heart and ability to get off the floor to win

I mentioned 3 ATG's but the Lennox Lewis, Max Baer's Mike Tysons and others would also bring a bigger punch than Lyle into the ring

[Son of Gaul]

Tyson would get KTFO in 2 Roundz like prime Frazier did - maybe even 1 round as he wont get-up.

Tua And Mercer had v.good cheens so they might has 5 or 6 roundz trading haymakers - BUT then they will be KTFO like teh rest.

Toney?? Is that some kind of B$ joke??

I'm definitely not saying that Toney would beat Foreman but he would absolutely take those punches without flinching...look at his head and neck man! You could hit James Toney in the head 20x in a row with an alluminum baseball bat and he'd just say,"You rang?".

[Son of Gaul]

Tyson would get KTFO in 2 Roundz like prime Frazier did - maybe even 1 round as he wont get-up.

Tua And Mercer had v.good cheens so they might has 5 or 6 roundz trading haymakers - BUT then they will be KTFO like teh rest.

Toney?? Is that some kind of B$ joke??

:bart...I have a hard time believing anyone could KO a young Tua.

[Seamus]

Here's one from left field... Razor Ruddock. A huge puncher with a stout beard. Not saying he would be a betting favorite but he hit harder than Lyle and took some crazy shots from Tyson.

[McGrain]

Unforgiven, you seem to mean "one for me one for you" dummy boxing, i'd say Foreman is unbeatable in that type of fight, yeah.

[tommygun711]

Liston would've imo

[PetethePrince]

Here's one from left field... Razor Ruddock. A huge puncher with a stout beard. Not saying he would be a betting favorite but he hit harder than Lyle and took some crazy shots from Tyson.

Good shout.

[Kalasinn]

Tyson who fought Ruddock against Foreman who fought Lyle, would be my ultimate fantasy slugfest.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Imagine the fireworks!

[bodhi]

Unforgiven, you seem to mean "one for me one for you" dummy boxing, i'd say Foreman is unbeatable in that type of fight, yeah.

Hm, really? What about Baer or Jeffries? See above.

[DudeGuyMan]

...... is there any heavyweight in history you would expect to prevail ?

No.

[Foreman Hook]

Unforgiven, you seem to mean "one for me one for you" dummy boxing, i'd say Foreman is unbeatable in that type of fight, yeah.

Spot-on m8. :thumbsup

Prime Foreman showed he were UNBEATABLE in a Haymaker Trade-Off when he KTFO v.Uber-powerful Ronny Lyle.

[Azzer85]

Liston would he had a great long powerful jab and was arguably same size as Foreman.

Louis/Tyson althought smaller were also harder hitters with short sharp compct combinations. If they could avoid Foremans looping shots and work their way in they have a chance. Tyson if he sticks to his bobbing and weaving, he also has the chin to take a few while making his way in

Apart from that....no one

Jack Johnson maybe? im sure he was quite a big guy