Has the standards in boxing really declined during this decade?

[TIGEREDGE]

in most divisions i see a big difference between the elite of the past and this decades elite but it has never been made more evident than in the welterweight division

can you see pac beating tito, oscar, pea and ike?

the fab featherweights (mab, erik, jmm and pac) during this decade could match anyone in history. pbf is one of the most gifted ever. hopkins is an atg

never in the history of boxing have we had so many non special champs in the top p4p lists. could you see pavlik and hatton getting in the top 10 in 1999. no way

i think the standard will continue to drop with boxing becoming less popular in america. we will still have special fighters coming. look at the ukrainian kid vasyl lomechenko. he is as good a prospect as anything in history

but will he have many guys to challenge him and prove himself as the best (this is providing he keeps up the good work and makes the transition to being a pro)

[teeto]

in most divisions i see a big difference between the elite of the past and this decades elite but it has never been made more evident than in the welterweight division

can you see pac beating tito, oscar, pea and ike?

the fab featherweights (mab, erik, jmm and pac) during this decade could match anyone in history. pbf is one of the most gifted ever. hopkins is an atg

never in the history of boxing have we had so many non special champs in the top p4p lists. could you see pavlik and hatton getting in the top 10 in 1999. no way

i think the standard will continue to drop with boxing becoming less popular in america. we will still have special fighters coming. look at the ukrainian kid vasyl lomechenko. he is as good a prospect as anything in history

but will he have many guys to challenge him and prove himself as the best (this is providing he keeps up the good work and makes the transition to being a pro)
I reckon we can look to much into it. Don't worry about it.

Quality fighters and fights will always be produced. 108 pounds is great!

[bodhi]

No, the current active fighters are always seen as a bit lackluster. When they are retired and there is some distance their standing growth. That´s human I guess.

[teeto]

No, the current active fighters are always seen as a bit lackluster. When they are retired and there is some distance their standing growth. That´s human I guess.
There was an article posted here written by Tommy Loughran talking about the standard of boxers being poor in (i think) the 40s! He was talking about how boxers aren't the same 'these days' and that they run rather than box in the centre of the ring.

it was along those lines anyway.

So there you have it, you're completely right. I would like to see more of the boxing technician these days though, i have to concede that.

[bodhi]

There was an article posted here written by Tommy Loughran talking about the standard of boxers being poor in (i think) the 40s! He was talking about how boxers aren't the same 'these days' and that they run rather than box in the centre of the ring.

it was along those lines anyway.

So there you have it, you're completely right. I would like to see more of the boxing technician these days though, i have to concede that.

Sokrates whined about the weak, uneducated children of his time ant that they have no manners. That was around 500 BC. Something similar stood at a pillar in Babylon around 1,300 years earlier. Why should these things change?

[teeto]

Sokrates whined about the weak, uneducated children of his time ant that they have no manners. That was around 500 BC. Something similar stood at a pillar in Babylon around 1,300 years earlier. Why should these things change?

:rofl:rofl

You are a legend.

[Unforgiven]

So, twenty years from now we'll be waxing nostalgic about John Ruiz and Chris Byrd and Wladimir Klitschko and Lamon Brewster and Sam Peter ?

[mr. magoo]

Only in the heavyweight, Cruiswerweight and Light heavyweight divsions, have we seen a pretty drastic drop in quality.. I think most of the lighter and middle sized divsions are still producing some pretty good fighters and even a few greats. The one thing that will never change about the smaller weight classes, is that they don't reward being a giant oaf on steroids or a fat deconditioned slob... If you want to make money as say, a welterweight, middleweight, lightweight, featherweight, etc. You have to put the necessary work in....Plain and simple..

[Mantequilla]

A lot of the divisions are entertaining and competitive.It's the depth of excellent/very good fighters in most of them that has been dropping off.

[mr. magoo]

A lot of the divisions are entertaining and competitive.It's the depth of excellent/very good fighters in most of them that has been dropping off.


That is another good point as well.

When I was growing up during the 80's and 90's, even some of the journeyman, trial hoarses, fringe contenders and unknown prospects were pretty good in a lot of weight classes. What this era really lacks, as you have basically already said, is a good second and third tier.

[Manassa]

Standards have definitely dropped. Mayweather wouldn't even be a champion back in the '40s. Hatton's career would end up at 6-28-3. Pacquiao, Marquez and Hopkins might steal a title but soon lose it to a more deserving fighter. Cotto, for instance, wouldn't even be in the top thirty welterweights in the early '60s.

[The Mongoose]

So, twenty years from now we'll be waxing nostalgic about John Ruiz and Chris Byrd and Wladimir Klitschko and Lamon Brewster and Sam Peter ?


People are nostalgic for Lennox and he got just as many unfair criticisms as Wlad. I recall people complaining during Evander's title run because he wasn't a knockout artist like Tyson, now people whine about he's the "Last of the Hard Men". Ezzard Charles was absolutely loathed during his brief but brilliant reign at the top of the heavies. And if people think Wlad and the current heavies get crapped on, read some stuff from Bowe's era. This is just vicious from SI:


A pity they can't sell tickets to press conferences, televise rules meetings or just strap a camera to Rock Newman ([Only registered and activated users can see links])'s head (the Rock Cam). Why shouldn't the public get to see the really good stuff? Why does the public have to put up with such third-rate entertainment as last Saturday night's heavyweight fight between Riddick Bowe ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) and Larry Donald ([Only registered and activated users can see links])? If you pay $250 for a ringside scat and have to endure Donald ([Only registered and activated users can see links])'s panicky circling for 12 interminable rounds and Bowe ([Only registered and activated users can see links])'s striking inability to hit a moving target, you should at least get the additional opportunity to accompany, say, the process server as he attempts to deliver Bowe ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) a civil complaint that prompts a postfight melee.
As it was, everything interesting happened before and after the fight, not during it. The bout itself was supposed to be pivotal in the comeback of Bowe ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), who is struggling for recognition and redemption after losing his WBA and IBF titles in a rematch with Evander Holyfield ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) a year ago. But try as he might (and he might have tried harder), Bowe ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) could not cut off the galloping Donald ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), and the fight instantly developed into a protracted chase scene. Round and round they went. It was so bad, tickets shouldn't have been sold to anybody with an inner-ear disorder.
If all you saw of it was the clockwise action from Caesars Palace ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) in Las Vegas ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), a fight Bowe ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) eventually won by unanimous decision thanks to a battering but intermittent left jab, you would be correct to complain. Donald ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), who had no business being in the ring with Bowe ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) at this stage of his embryonic career (though he was 16-0, he had been a pro less than two years), probably fought the only fight he could, considering that he apparently does not possess the power to harm Bowe ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Still, it would have been more exciting to see him use his hands a little more than his feet.
"I was trying to wait until fatigue set in," said a puffy-faced Donald ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) afterward. Well, the strategy worked. Maybe not on Bowe ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), but the rest of us were plenty tired of this display by the fourth round.
But who cares about the actual event when there's as much incidental intrigue as this match supplied. There was, of course, the press conference in Los Angeles ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) five days before the fight, when Bowe ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) suddenly went mental and hit Donald ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) with what Bowe ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) called a "hook-cross." Naturally, it engendered legal action (more about that later), but the principal result of that Hash combination was to focus attention on Bowe's year of frustration.
Bowe's ascension to the crown, led by his manager, Newman ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), was nettlesome enough to the boxing establishment that his eventual descent became the game's hot ticket. Forget Bowe's independence of promoters like Don King ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) and Bob Arum ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), who virtually run the sanctioning bodies. How about Bowe, after beating Holyfield for the WBA, WBC and IBF titles in their first meeting, taking his WBC belt and literally dumping it in a garbage can? Bowe bore the brunt of the backlash, even though most of it was intended for the irascible Newman ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Arguably the best fighter in the heavyweight division not now in an Indiana ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) prison, Bowe was suddenly bypassed in the major rankings.
Ever since he lost the Holyfield rematch in November 1993 he has been, in the words of one promoter, "in a deep, dark place." King ([Only registered and activated users can see links])'s restoration to power when one of his fighters, Oliver McCall ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), beat Lennox Lewis ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) to win the WBC title was a complicating factor, as was George Foreman ([Only registered and activated users can see links])'s unseating of Michael Moorer ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) recently for the WBA and IBF crowns. Neither King ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) nor Foreman has plans for Bowe.

And I miss Brewster. A very tough fighter who produced some very exciting wars at the heavyweight division..as a result he broke down rapidly but some good stuff while he was at the top of his game.

[bodhi]

So, twenty years from now we'll be waxing nostalgic about John Ruiz and Chris Byrd and Wladimir Klitschko and Lamon Brewster and Sam Peter ?

About Wlad for sure. Ruiz will never be liked but the respect for him will grow when he is retired I'm sure of it. Brewster and Peter will be remembered as hard bangers with good chins who lack technige and finesse, say as decen contenders. Byed will be remembered as a fine technician who hang in with bigger guys with quite some success.

See how some of the 80s hws are "gloryfied" now and they weren't any better than today's.

[The Mongoose]

People are nostaglic for Lewis and Tua now...but few were impressed in 2000. More venom from SI:


Lennox Lewis ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), who likes to brag about his "arsenal," courted disfavor once more by keeping the heavy artillery under wraps. He didn't court defeat, because his rifle jab was more than sufficient to discourage David Tua ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) in their tide fight last Saturday night in Las Vegas ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). But whenever heavyweights battle—and Lewis knows this by now—cannons are the weapons most popular with fans.
So Lewis heard boos again, even though he continued one of the most distinguished reigns in recent history. His decision over Tua ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), who was wildly hyped for his Samoan ferocity (or maybe just his Samoan jabber), was so lopsided that even critics of the London ([Only registered and activated users can see links])-based champion must accept the talent gulf between Lewis and his challengers. Tua ([Only registered and activated users can see links])'s lunging left hook marked him as the most dangerous contender out there, but he did not win a round past the fourth on any of the judges' scorecards.
This is the best the division can do? But the real question—and it has haunted him from the beginning—is, Is this the best Lennox Lewis ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) can do?......

Does this not read like a recap of the latest Wlad or Vitali fight?

[Unforgiven]

People are nostaglic for Lewis and Tua now...but few were impressed in 2000. More venom from SI:


Lennox Lewis ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), who likes to brag about his "arsenal," courted disfavor once more by keeping the heavy artillery under wraps. He didn't court defeat, because his rifle jab was more than sufficient to discourage David Tua ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) in their tide fight last Saturday night in Las Vegas ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). But whenever heavyweights battle—and Lewis knows this by now—cannons are the weapons most popular with fans.
So Lewis heard boos again, even though he continued one of the most distinguished reigns in recent history. His decision over Tua ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), who was wildly hyped for his Samoan ferocity (or maybe just his Samoan jabber), was so lopsided that even critics of the London ([Only registered and activated users can see links])-based champion must accept the talent gulf between Lewis and his challengers. Tua ([Only registered and activated users can see links])'s lunging left hook marked him as the most dangerous contender out there, but he did not win a round past the fourth on any of the judges' scorecards.
This is the best the division can do? But the real question—and it has haunted him from the beginning—is, Is this the best Lennox Lewis ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) can do?......

Does this not read like a recap of the latest Wlad or Vitali fight?

Oh, the Lewis-Tua fight was crap, no question.

I blame Tua more than Lewis though. It was a very good win for Lewis, but I do fault him for not giving his all and firing all cylinders, but Tua did nothing to force him to. It was as if Tua got in there and after two or three rounds he just thought "OK, this guy is better than me. I'll just plod ahead and go through the motions and if he keeps boxing me like this and I dont start any real trouble I wont get knocked out".
Lewis did the minimum for the most part, and he really showed what MINIMUM means at times. :lol:

Still, I think it's one of Lewis's best wins, an admirable shut-out over a dangerous top fighter. I dont rate Lewis as highly as many on this site do though.

[PowerPuncher]

If standards are that bad where are all the fighters from the 80s/90s that are taking advantage of the poor divisions today? Hopkins is 1 I suppose. But him aside not too many

[PowerPuncher]

People are nostaglic for Lewis and Tua now...but few were impressed in 2000. More venom from SI:


Lennox Lewis ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), who likes to brag about his "arsenal," courted disfavor once more by keeping the heavy artillery under wraps. He didn't court defeat, because his rifle jab was more than sufficient to discourage David Tua ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) in their tide fight last Saturday night in Las Vegas ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). But whenever heavyweights battle—and Lewis knows this by now—cannons are the weapons most popular with fans.
So Lewis heard boos again, even though he continued one of the most distinguished reigns in recent history. His decision over Tua ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), who was wildly hyped for his Samoan ferocity (or maybe just his Samoan jabber), was so lopsided that even critics of the London ([Only registered and activated users can see links])-based champion must accept the talent gulf between Lewis and his challengers. Tua ([Only registered and activated users can see links])'s lunging left hook marked him as the most dangerous contender out there, but he did not win a round past the fourth on any of the judges' scorecards.
This is the best the division can do? But the real question—and it has haunted him from the beginning—is, Is this the best Lennox Lewis ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) can do?......

Does this not read like a recap of the latest Wlad or Vitali fight?

That was probably Lennox's most boring fight and it was still far more action packed than Wlad-Ibragimov or most Wlad fight for that matter

Wlad and Vitali are very good just not as good as Lennox

[teeto]

Doesn't anyone else think the 108 pound division is good? Even if some of the top guys are seemingly not going to be at the level for too much longer.

[Mantequilla]

If standards are that bad where are all the fighters from the 80s/90s that are taking advantage of the poor divisions today? Hopkins is 1 I suppose. But him aside not too many

Mosley is probably the best example of that i guess.He's been just a solid fighter for years now.I've never been impressed with one single performance in absolute terms since he lost to forrest.Smashing MArgarito was great though.

[The Mongoose]

That was probably Lennox's most boring fight and it was still far more action packed than Wlad-Ibragimov or most Wlad fight for that matter

Wlad and Vitali are very good just not as good as Lennox

Sultan's "Run for the Hills" strategy didn't mesh well with Wlad's minimial effort. Last Wlad fight I really enjoyed was the Calvin Brock meeting, competitive rounds and a crushing finish. I think his conservative style and recent string of "survival" minded opponents has made people forget how exciting he can be. Also, he did save us from an increasingly painful Chris Byrd reign.

More positive writing on the 90s heavyweights:


Inasmuch as the result provoked no congressional inquiries, you might say it was a great night for boxing. Nobody died in the ring, the fix wasn't in, the performers were good sportsmen, and there was no obvious malfeasance at ringside, where the scoring is often so perverse that not even incompetence is a sufficiently plausible explanation. And, yes, the sport has, at long last, an undisputed heavyweight champion.
But it's important to observe that at this point we no longer have any expectations when it comes to boxing. If last Saturday's rematch between Evander Holyfield ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) and Lennox Lewis—required not because their fight last March was particularly compelling but because it resulted in a most curious draw—is the best the game has to offer, well, that just proves that boxing remains exempt from the customary demands of the consuming public, if not the law. It was an uninspiring fight for the most part, and the best that can be said of Lewis ([Only registered and activated users can see links])'s victory by a unanimous decision is...finally.

[GPater11093]

Teeto 108lbs is a good division right now.

You got 3 undefeated champs dont you? All exciting and all good if they just inified

[Manassa]

Standards have definitely dropped. Mayweather wouldn't even be a champion back in the '40s. Hatton's career would end up at 6-28-3. Pacquiao, Marquez and Hopkins might steal a title but soon lose it to a more deserving fighter. Cotto, for instance, wouldn't even be in the top thirty welterweights in the early '60s.

Can't believe I wasn't pulled up on this.

[ricardoparker93]

Standards have definitely dropped. Mayweather wouldn't even be a champion back in the '40s. Hatton's career would end up at 6-28-3. Pacquiao, Marquez and Hopkins might steal a title but soon lose it to a more deserving fighter. Cotto, for instance, wouldn't even be in the top thirty welterweights in the early '60s.

Thank you for that amazing insight :patsch Mayweather wouldnt be a champion? Are you about 80 years old?

[Above Deck]

Considering Mayweather couldve achieved far more than he already
has if he truely tested himself, then its arguable that in another era
he couldve been more dominant, plus Mayweather is widely
regarded in the top 5 defensive fighters ever, and thats whilst he
is still fighting, which counts for a lot.

A great defence goes a long way, I think Pac/Floyd, they have
attributes that would hold up in any era, speed, elusiveness of
Mayweather and the freakish explosiveness of Pac.

[gooners!!]

Yes, Unquestioningly. I dont see many elite fighters around today.

Elite to me are fighters of this era who would be able to hang with great fighters of yester year. David Haye would be lucky to get by Mercer, Tim Witherspoon let alone Lewis, Tyson, Ali, Holmes etc.

[Manassa]

Thank you for that amazing insight :patsch Mayweather wouldnt be a champion? Are you about 80 years old?

What are you on about, cunt.

[PowerPuncher]

Mosley is probably the best example of that i guess.He's been just a solid fighter for years now.I've never been impressed with one single performance in absolute terms since he lost to forrest.Smashing MArgarito was great though.

Good point, I had him beating Cotto too but Mosley is an ATG and has managed to retain allot of his assets. However I'd see him losing wide UDs to Mayweather and Paul Williams at 147

Other examples would be

Hopkins-Pavlik
Calzaghe-Kessler
Lennox-Vitali

But then again most eras have an older great running over young upstarts

[Dempsey1238]

Thank you for that amazing insight :patsch Mayweather wouldnt be a champion? Are you about 80 years old?


Not with Armstrong or Ross cleaning out the divison, he wont.l

[PowerPuncher]

Not with Armstrong or Ross cleaning out the divison, he wont.l

He'd beat both and comfortably

[Tin_Ribs]

What are you on about, cunt.

:rofl

[bodhi]

Can't believe I wasn't pulled up on this.

Because it was clear that you posted this one just to provoke the usual suspects ;)

[bodhi]

He'd beat both and comfortably

And from what are you dreaming when you sleep? :blood

[sweet_scientist]

List who you consider to be the 10 best fighters in a single weight class this decade, and compare it to a list of the shittest equivalent 10 best fighters in that single weight class from a previous decade and see if you can make a claim that boxing isn't declining.

[gooners!!]

Take Cotto, very good fighter who won a close fight with Shane Mosley, that tells me Shane would definitely beat him in his prime.

[TIGEREDGE]

Yes, Unquestioningly. I dont see many elite fighters around today.

Elite to me are fighters of this era who would be able to hang with great fighters of yester year. David Haye would be lucky to get by Mercer, Tim Witherspoon let alone Lewis, Tyson, Ali, Holmes etc.


thats what i mean. pbf, hopkins and pac are the only ones who could hang with the greats of yesteryear