View Full Version : Bowe & Marciano overated????
Geddy Lee
11-19-2009, 09:17 AM
from another site thread any one agree ??? some popints?
but apart from wins over holyfield . bowe has done nothing to earn all the respect he gets, ok i quite like him as a guy , i seen him and he was funny , and good laugh, but now way a top 25, in fact got to be in the top ten of all time worst heavy weights, shit scared of lennox, 2 defences of the title , WOW all time great.
Marciano, now win and a defence of and old man and the then oldest man to win the title.
ok the roland la starza fight was a good one, and good win, two defences over and ex middle weight,
then don cockell known as the powder puff puncher,
then archie morre who was 75 or 76 years old,
not ATG stuff, and some americans slag Lennox off, got to laugh at that
Utter1
11-19-2009, 09:24 AM
Rocky Marciano is ......he was at the top of his sport for 3 years as champ and a few as a up and coming condender.
His opponents do not vary or match the quality of other heavyweights we have seen in the history of boxing.
Joe Frazier was better and so was Jack Dempsey.
Bowe head to head was a good fighter but not an all time great, i believe if he fought Holyfield a 4th he would lose and would have lost to Lewis, and Tyson.
Lee Mc
11-19-2009, 09:36 AM
Rocky Marciano is the fighter who those who have no knowledge of boxing's history think is the best ever. They get seduced by the 49-0 and fail to ask "who did he beat to get to it?".
brown bomber
11-19-2009, 09:38 AM
Rocky Marciano is the fighter who those who have no knowledge of boxing's history think is the best ever. They get seduced by the 49-0 and fail to ask "who did he beat to get to it?".
Aren't you the guy who loves calzaghe? :lol:
Lee Mc
11-19-2009, 09:41 AM
Aren't you the guy who loves calzaghe? :lol:
No.
doug.ie
11-19-2009, 09:56 AM
Rocky Marciano is the fighter who those who have no knowledge of boxing's history think is the best ever. They get seduced by the 49-0 and fail to ask "who did he beat to get to it?".
you're making a fair comment lee.
how good were old man river walcott, don cockell {who got beat by middleweight randy turpin}, an even older light-heavyweight in archie moore, and although, in fairness, you could say ezzard charles was top class, he was 14 years into his pro career and after those fights went on the slide, was he naturally past his prime or did the rocky fights take it out of him, i dunno
PaddyD1983
11-19-2009, 10:02 AM
Any fighter who hasnt been beaten is difficult to judge I feel.
The '0' is great for marketing but it leaves us real fans with a problem. Was he really that good or were his opponents not up to much? Look at the criticism that is levelled at Marciano, Calzaghe and Floyd. It's all very similar.
I dont think for a minute that Marciano was the greatest HW of all time. Far from it. But I wont go as far as to say he was not a good champion.
Bowe is a strange one. Agree with the poster that said head to head Bowe was a good fighter. I do think he'd be a good fight for any heavyweight from any era. But he'd be beaten by most of them. My biggest problem with Bowe is his record really and the obvious omissions from it. Good. Not great.
P4PNo.1
11-19-2009, 10:03 AM
Just the other day I was thinking about where I would rank Bowe. Probally top 25 is about right maybe just in top 20 at best.
Utter1
11-19-2009, 11:40 AM
Just the other day I was thinking about where I would rank Bowe. Probally top 25 is about right maybe just in top 20 at best.
Your ranking would based purely on head to head then.
In any case.....its pointless this all time crap, its if your the best of your era.
Sullivan, Burns, Johnson, Willard, Dempsey, Tunney - I got Johnson
Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, Walcott, Charles, Braddock, M. Baer - I got Joe Louis
Liston, Patterson, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Norton - I got Ali
Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis - I got Lewis
03 onwards the best so far are the Kilt brothers....but its only been 6 years.
turpinr
11-19-2009, 12:00 PM
Rocky Marciano is the fighter who those who have no knowledge of boxing's history think is the best ever. They get seduced by the 49-0 and fail to ask "who did he beat to get to it?".his 8-4 amatuer record too
Bowe, yes. Didn't achieve anything like what his talent was capable of.
Marciano, no. You need to take a harder look before going along with the conceived wisdom.
Archie Moore won about 20 fights in a row before fighting Marciano. He just beat Bobo Olson and Joey Maxim in the year previous, two hall of famers. He would go on to win the world light heavyweight title again, after losing to Marciano. Far from a corpse...or damn..he was a good corpse.
Ezzard Charles went on to be quite inconsistent after his losses to Marciano so I can see where that criticism comes from. However, in the year previous he beat Bob Satterfield and Rex Layne and lost 2 close decisions.
Jersey Joe had just come off wins to Ezzard Charles. These were his last fights, but how bad could he have been if he just beat Ezzard Charles?
And then we come to the bullshit about size. Jersey Joe outweighed Marciano by 12-13lbs so who really have the size advantage there? Ezzard Charles weighed the same, and more in the rematch. Archie Moore weighed the same. I'm not saying Marciano isn't the naturally thicker set man but its not like comparing todays heavyweights with great light heavyweights, its more like comparing a small cruiserweight.
HeavyT
11-19-2009, 12:11 PM
Aren't you the guy who loves calzaghe? :lol:
Give it a rest, Swollocks 2.0 or what? :good (first time I've heard you whinge about Joe in a while though, I'll give you that)
Bowe is not an ATG, Marciano is, certainly not in the top 10 I'd imagine though.
Mazallan
11-19-2009, 12:14 PM
Marciano's record stands firm next to anyone. You can pick huge holes in anyones career.
The problem with Rocky is that he finished at the right time and never came back to suffer those stupid late defeats.
turpinr
11-19-2009, 12:16 PM
his 6 challengers
walcott -39 years old and his heart wasn't in it
roland la starza-didn't weigh 13 stone
ezzard charles-had started on the slippery slope
ezzard charles-ditto
don cockell-chubby,big hearted and with genuine medical reasons for his bulk,but lacking
archie moore-46 years old and with a long career behind him
its not marciano's fault,he beat who was in front of him and had limitless amounts of courage.at 187lb and 5ft-10ins he's just not big enough
Roland La Starza weighed 1 whole pound less than Marciano. If thats the best criticism...
Top Dog
11-19-2009, 12:29 PM
Rocky Marciano is the fighter who those who have no knowledge of boxing's history think is the best ever. They get seduced by the 49-0 and fail to ask "who did he beat to get to it?".
Totally right mate, I've said for a long time a lot of these older fighter are well over-rated, the old rose tintied glasses job. Most of the guys on his record were no better than booth fighters. But to be honest Ali over-rated also. Are you the real Lee McAllister, the Aberdeen Assasin, or merly an imposter of the real thing:D
turpinr
11-19-2009, 12:40 PM
Roland La Starza weighed 1 whole pound less than Marciano. If thats the best criticism...point taken but seeing has how most of the best heavies are at least 15lbs heavier then he would be at a dis-advantage.
most pro-rocky fans wave this weight dis-advantage away as nothing:rofl
Totally right mate, I've said for a long time a lot of these older fighter are well over-rated, the old rose tintied glasses job. Most of the guys on his record were no better than booth fighters. But to be honest Ali over-rated also. Are you the real Lee McAllister, the Aberdeen Assasin, or merly an imposter of the real thing:D
:rofl
Do some research before embarrassing yourself. Archie Moore, Jersey Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles are some of the greatest fighters of all time, record or head to head.
GazOC
11-19-2009, 01:54 PM
his 6 challengers
walcott -39 years old and his heart wasn't in it
roland la starza-didn't weigh 13 stone
ezzard charles-had started on the slippery slope
ezzard charles-ditto
don cockell-chubby,big hearted and with genuine medical reasons for his bulk,but lacking
archie moore-46 years old and with a long career behind him
its not marciano's fault,he beat who was in front of him and had limitless amounts of courage.at 187lb and 5ft-10ins he's just not big enough
Thats a fair post. At heavyweight and at the stage of their careers that they fought for the title Rockys challengers we'rnt top notch.
Although Rocky did beat fighters 6"+ and 200lb+ thats not the same propostion as giving that weight and height away (and more) to the likes of Ali, Holmes, Lewis, Liston, Foreman etc.
kosaros
11-19-2009, 02:04 PM
from another site thread any one agree ??? some popints?
but apart from wins over holyfield . bowe has done nothing to earn all the respect he gets, ok i quite like him as a guy , i seen him and he was funny , and good laugh, but now way a top 25, in fact got to be in the top ten of all time worst heavy weights, shit scared of lennox, 2 defences of the title , WOW all time great.
Marciano, now win and a defence of and old man and the then oldest man to win the title.
ok the roland la starza fight was a good one, and good win, two defences over and ex middle weight,
then don cockell known as the powder puff puncher,
then archie morre who was 75 or 76 years old,
not ATG stuff, and some americans slag Lennox off, got to laugh at that
Is this thread about my list by any chance? :lol:
punchdrunkgench
11-19-2009, 04:43 PM
tffp u have made some superb points here mate regarding marciano
im obviously a fan of rocky
(as my avatar clearly shows)
i get tired of people bashing him, i dont consider him an atg but the guy had such heart courage and sheer bloody grit, the 2nd fight against charles sums this up perfectly the damage he sustained in that fight was awful yet he dug deeper than any fighter ive ever seen to turn that fight around and attributes like that make him a legend in my book.
bowe lacked discipline and if you dont have that then it doesnt matter how talented you are you wont go anywhere and you dont deserve to
JonOli
11-19-2009, 05:17 PM
At the time I desperately wanted Lewis to fight Bowe. Obviously you can't blame Lewis for them not fighting, but it would have added a very good W to either of their records.
Lee Mc
11-20-2009, 05:12 AM
Totally right mate, I've said for a long time a lot of these older fighter are well over-rated, the old rose tintied glasses job. Most of the guys on his record were no better than booth fighters. But to be honest Ali over-rated also. Are you the real Lee McAllister, the Aberdeen Assasin, or merly an imposter of the real thing:D
No, I'm Lee McCloskey.
tonysaprano
11-20-2009, 05:26 AM
No, I'm Lee McCloskey.
Cool:good
tonysaprano
11-20-2009, 05:27 AM
Cool:good
Oh sorry mate, didnt read the whole thread:oops: I thought you had just come on and said who you were for no reason, :nut
Top Dog
11-20-2009, 05:30 AM
Oh sorry mate, didnt read the whole thread:oops: I thought you had just come on and said who you were for no reason, :nut
Never mind bud, we all make nistakes:lol:
Top Dog
11-20-2009, 05:38 AM
:rofl
Do some research before embarrassing yourself. Archie Moore, Jersey Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles are some of the greatest fighters of all time, record or head to head.
Embarrassing myself, aye right pal, take the rose tinted glasses off and take a look in the mirror cause your face must be bright red. All good fighter, but can you have greatest fighters of all time with a record of
Moore 23 losses = 23 losses head to head
Walcott 18 losses = 18 losses head to head
Charles 25 losses - 25 losses head to head
Eh I dont think so mate:yep
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